2. What Is a Musician, Really?

In a world of ever advancing tech, who gets to call themselves a musician? We dig into the technology quietly reshaping music, why new tech always gets a rough reception, DJs, AI, and the big question: can a machine ever really make art? Spoiler: we don't think it can.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:20

You almost look like a musician over there.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Look at me go.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

You have leaned more into the musician vibe in the last few years, I can tell.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

I definitely have. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Yeah. Was that a con uh concerted effort? Is that the right word?

SPEAKER_02 0:34

I think so. Yeah. Um and yeah, I'd say it probably was. Right. Um I definitely had a bit more of a clean-cut corporate world vibe going on most of my career. Um I did see some photos. Yeah, and then uh around COVID, actually. I went in COVID, clean shaven, short hair, and came out uh hippie.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Right. Now, in terms of your marriage, this could have gone either of two ways. She could now be thinking, oh, great, you know, now I'm married to a gorilla. Um or she might have been like, Bring it on.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

I think I think uh my wife is very used to me um changing things up every few years. Right. Um I yeah, I kinda have a little bit of ADHD with my personality. So we often like there was a whole period uh that we call like fat mic. So kind of like late university. Yeah. Um so yeah, it's it's it's pretty common for me to just change it up when I feel like it. Why not? Why not? Well, people take things too seriously.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

If the show survives, we'll see what happens. Yeah. See what kind of mics we end up with. There you go. You never know. So what are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Uh today we're talking about what is a musician really.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Hmm. The definition of a musician.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

What did we write here? How do you define a musician in a world of auto-tune, quantizing DJs, samples, MIDI, and AI? Also discussing how past tech has been rejected. Um, you know, that's something that we see kind of happen periodically whenever there is a new technology that gets released and people have this common debate of, oh, you're no longer a musician. So it'd be interesting to see um where you land on some of those subjects.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Well, I don't know where you want to start. I thought we could just go all the way back to the start of the whole m uh music industry.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

I think that's probably a good way to do it. I kind of wanted to start at a bit of a let's if we can get a bit of an agreed definition of what we both think music is. Well, isn't that an episode we want to do later? It is, but I would like to at least get a bit of a a rough outline.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Okay. Well, here's a rough outline. Uh noise uh arranged into time.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I like that. I also like the it's pretty common saying, you know, music is a language or music as the universal language. Um I watched a TED talk from Adam Neely where he said uh music is a music is a direct music is a language with a direct line to uh emotion, which I think is really interesting. You know, you can say the words um tension or or fear or longing, but you don't feel it from from hearing that. But there are certain intervals or patterns in music that will make you feel those things. Yeah. Just from an audible experience of different tones and pitch and frequency.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

So I'm trying to decide if my counter makes sense that there is a lot of music out there that's not designed to invoke emotion. I agree. Evoke emotion, I should say. Um and it's like for instance, when techno blew up in the late 90s, I just could not for the life of me understand the appeal. Um and then I I realized one day it's there to facilitate the party vibe in the club and so on. Like, and I just remember thinking if you got a bunch of young people in a club popping pills and you know all that, and Bob Dylan came on, it would be totally the wrong You might kill the vibe a little bit. So, but then again, that might still reinforce your point because it is that is just a different emotion. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Yeah. One's an emotion of just wanting to party and and go hard, and another one's wanting to slow down and and feel some uh maybe less fun party vibes.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

I still feel like that might be zoomed in a bit too far, though, like the definition of music itself, because there's a lot of music, some would say, that doesn't give them any emotion, right? Leads them cold. So what actually is music?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Well, that's where that's where I I would actually pull back a little bit from that, the direct line to emotion. Um I think that it can facilitate that, but I agree, it doesn't always need to. Um there's uh a guy named Scott West, um, who did uh an instructional course called Absolutely Understand Guitar. Um I think it was in the maybe late 90s. Um highly recommend checking it out. And in his first episode, he kind of breaks down what he sees um music as a language, and he breaks it down into six main areas, which I do agree with after I've kind of thought about it a bit more.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

And those being um pitch, uh rhythm, timbre, technique, uh notation, did I say them all? And dynamics. Um and I think that does break it down quite well, and I think as we get into this, you know, talking more about the AI and stuff, we can actually pick which parts are kind of being taken out. You know, which are the new tools, where is that sort of changing?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

There was an episode I recorded a years ago with a producer called Sylvia, someone. Sorry, Sylvia, I can't remember who's her name. Um she produced people like Tool and um I think she worked with Tom Petty maybe and maybe Prince, people like that.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Um pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And she um she was talking about one of her one of her things one day was they drove out into the desert. Um, I think she must have been working in California. Um they drove out into the desert and got an old piano and shot at it with rifles and recorded it and used that on one of the records. And I thought that was really funny, you know. Um it got me thinking like if you recorded someone or like if you recorded, let's say something crashing down the stairs, um, created a sample of it out of it and then put it into a loop, you've made music. Totally. The crashing's on on its own, is that music debatable? Probably not. So that's why I think sound organized into time, because if you go back to long music history, or long history, or human history, I should say, um, uh a lot of music would have been chanting and and dancing, drum beats, drum beats, log beats, that sort of stuff, and and and clapping and that sort of stuff wouldn't have been about melodic structures so much, probably in some of the very, very old sort of tribal music and so on.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Um but that's still still music. That's still timbre, dynamics, pitch, yeah. Um, and rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yes. Yeah. Does that mean we agree or disagree?

SPEAKER_02 6:48

I think I think we I think we agree. Okay. I think we agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Yeah. Well, I think what we're talking about now, like the reason why the question today is what is a musician really? Why it's important or feels pressing is because uh the way the word musician is used has become more fluid and the way music is made has changed a lot. And I think that's just raised the the conversation, right? So that's why I thought if we were talking about how um the music industry started, if we start there, because the music industry didn't obviously invent music, music existed forever. And the music industry came from the development of technology, that being the ability to record and then play back in your house, which meant that they needed to do things like create not only a way of recording the music, but putting it onto a playable medium, and then have that medium get played on a device in your house. And then the all of the structures around it, as in um who owns what and how do you deliver it and where do you buy it from, and you know, and and that's where you ended up with retail stores and record companies and distribution companies and storage warehouses and you know, now go-betweens with the bands and managers and accountants and the whole thing, the but the industry grew out of demand and the advancements of technology.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Agreed. I think even if you take a bit of a further step back, you know, you look at like sort of the Tin Pen Alley era um where musicians were selling sheet music. Right. Um, you didn't you didn't have for centuries. You didn't have radio, you didn't have people playing, it was it was selling the sheet music and then people performing in either orchestral arrangements or you know, private viewings, whatever it ended up being. But you you know, the musicians there was performers and then there was the writers. Yeah. And it was a bit of a separation. And it wasn't until you know, further on down the line when bands started writing their own music. I mean, even you know, Elvis never wrote his own songs and stuff. So there was a bit of a I think there was a bit of a delineation between the performer and who you would say, you know, quote unquote the musician actually creating the music. So that's another interesting distinction that I think did start to, you know, those, like you said, those lines started to blur and dissolve over the years, but it was it was quite a bit more um black and white at the start.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

I've always thought that was a funny idea when it was the world of just selling sheet music. Like imagine Beyonce's new singles come out. You know, you run down to the store and buy your sheet music and then you run home and then put it on the piano and go, right. Hope you can play it right. And you as you're playing it, you're going, This is pretty good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Yeah, but it's it's it's a very interesting, it's a completely different world, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

It's the only way you could hear stuff unless you went down to the local town hall and or whatever, and and um, you know, uh music would have been such a um uh rare and precious commodity. Definitely uh live music, because you know for most people, if especially if they didn't live in a city, when could they ever hear an orchestra live, you know?

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Um maybe once in their life if they were lucky.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then of course there would have been people plonking on different, you know, random instruments at the pub and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

I mean, you probably still had your uncle who was playing blues guitar, you know, in the corner. There there still would have been the sort of local musicians that I'm sure they would have heard, but it would be yeah, a very different world. And I think, you know, taking a little bit of a step forward, um, when radio becomes a bit more prolific and it is in people's homes, and now you sort of have a bit of a shared culture around that. But up until I think the mid-40s, it was still, you know, music that was being broadcast over the radio was still live music. So the mid-40s. 1945, I believe, is when um they started to play what you know what they would call canned music. Um so it was essentially pre-recorded songs, and there was a lot of pushback. The uh musicians um sorry, I've written it down, I can't remember what it was called. The American Federation of Musicians, basically the musicians' union, took very strong political steps and fought to keep records or canned music off the airways. Um keeping music live meant keeping musicians and union members working. Wow. So that was, you know, there was even pushback in the 40s uh to not have recorded music on the airwaves.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

I was just about to say that we might have made a mistake because music would have been played on the radio a lot earlier than what we're just talking about uh started, but I guess not.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

No, it was and it was one of those things that you um, you know, radio technology uh it's one of those things that obviously it gets invented, but then getting the actual infrastructure, getting all your towers up, getting all your your your broadcasting stations set up as a very labor and very cost-intensive exercise. So now you're in your world, aren't you? Well, it's it's it's one of those things. Yeah, I tried to stay away from it. Um but it's one of those things that you know it because it because it was so cost exp, you know, uh prohibitive, it was you would have your sort of central cultural zeitgeist where you would have the popular music of the day, that was all that got recorded and all that got presented. Um so you know, it's it's one of those things that I think nowadays um I've got music on all the time, and it can be from a thousand different genres for whatever I'm feeling on the day. And I it's hard for me to think about how I would live in a world where you know I could only hear music once a week at the l at the local radio station when they played live. Like that's you know, it's it's one of those things we kind of take for granted.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

When you did hear it though, you would have been really listening. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's interesting to me that that first stretch of recorded music was basically live performances, live performances with mics on you. Um an engineer I know told me about a record he loves, which um is recorded so early that the only way they could mix the different people in the band was by moving them back and forth from one mic in the room. They had one mic in the room, and the drums were in the far, far corner, and they had the um the backup singers standing in a line and they'd say, Okay, backup singer number two, can you take a step back? You're slightly too loud, and whatever. I just loved that idea of one mic, you know. And it was also uh an interview I saw with Paul McCartney where he was talking about the early Beatles records where they again they recorded everything in one go. Um, he said that he learnt not to say anything if he had made a mistake in the song and no one else commented on it, because that sometimes, you know, they'd be doing like 30 takes in a in a night to to record the single. Um, and they were all desperate to go home and get it over and done with. So if he made one fluff and no one noticed, he'd like just let it go. And the interviewer said, Does that mean that there's lots of mistakes on the early Beatles records? He's like, loads. And I went and listened to them, and there are all over the place. It's funny how you just don't notice that. Makes music human. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

I mean, I always love um the twist and show, you know, that was one of those where they'd recorded for it was one of those marathon recording days, and his voice is so hoarse, and now it's one of the most iconic vocal performances, I think, uh, probably of uh maybe not of their entire career. They've got so many amazing songs, but it's definitely one of those that always sticks in my head as just being an incredible song based on the vocal performance, and it was because he was hoarse and tired, and you know, he's been just just dying to get those those last takes out. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Was that Paul or was that John that sang that one? It was John, right? I think so. Yeah. Because Paul actually had an amazing rock and roll voice. Like I I I think when I was a kid, I used to assume that rock uh that John was the rock and roller and that Paul was the more kind of balladier. And um, but you know, Paul, you know, he he knew how to lean in and get that raspy sound.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

They were both incredible.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah, yeah. So um things started to change obviously in the 60s because when the 60s started, they were often still recording to like two tracks or whatever, so they'd have like stereo and that was it. Um and that's why you had to record live, or mm I think at some point you could hover it up a little bit. But when they got to the point where they could start plugging like multiple four-track machines into each other, which is I think how they made Sergeant Peppers, they jerry-rigged this um multi-track recording um option and then made one of the most famous records in history, Sergeant Peppa's Lonely Heart Hearts Club band. Still waiting for my voice to come back because of the record. That's why I keep tripping over myself. But this was this was of course a game changer in terms of now they couldn't go out onto the stage and play what was on the record.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

This is a pretty big step in a different direction.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

I mean, uh there's uh there's a really famous clip a little bit earlier too, um, Les Paul and Mary Ford, when they when they first um, you know, they were one of the first to really use multi-tracking uh quite heavily in their songs. And there's uh a famous clip, I'll I don't know if we can link in the episodes, but it might be a good one to try and link to um to show people where they were doing uh I can't remember what the name of the the shows are, um, but essentially like a variety show where they came on and they were explaining this new technology and they they had a big crazy rig uh where they were trying to show, you know, he's flipping all sorts of switches and stuff. It's it's very theatrical, and and you know, he plays a couple chords and then all of this music comes back out, and they try to make it say that you know this is this is some crazy technology, he's not actually playing all these these songs, but the truth is they were just it was multi-tracking. Yeah. And they were doing that on his guitar work and on um Mary Ford's vocals, and they kind of explain that, hey, you know, this is just a gag, we're not actually using this machine, and then they explain what it was. But there was a lot of pushback on that at the time.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

So it seems to be a pretty common trope where some new technology comes out, and there is quite a bit of pushback. Um and I think it does make sense a little bit. People are used to hearing things a certain way or doing things a certain way, and uh when you have some sort of paradigm shifting technology like we're currently dealing with, um, you know, there there is a bit of natural pushback because people just don't know. They don't know what's gonna change, you know. Uh keep keep live musicians working, you know. That was that was a uh concern all the way back in the forties. And and we're still dealing with similar issues today.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard for me to understand why double tracking would be controversial.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

But um I think some people thought it was uh for lack of a better term, almost fraudulent, you know, that like you're cheating. Yeah, you're cheating. You're you're you're you're putting in, you know, you're you're putting in this much effort into the playing, but you're getting extra out because of the technology.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

And the funny thing was, is that it kind of was cheating in a way, because we use that as a standard now, double-track stuff. Um one of the reasons is it makes vocal sound bigger and wider. A lot of for people who don't know, a lot of people, uh a lot of pop artists these days especially will layer in sometimes seven or eight you know versions of the same thing and blend it all together. Um and it makes it sound really big and synthetic and wide. Um but it's also just a really good way of covering mistakes. Because if if one word went sharp and the other take it might have gone flat and it kind of evens itself out. Um I don't really think it's cheating, but it's kind of cheating.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

But you could definitely see how it was thought of it at the time, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah, yeah. John Lennon used it a lot, especially in his solo records. It kind of became his sound. And I think that makes sense because I think he was probably more insecure than he probably let on about a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Don't know why it would be, he was pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yeah, he was alright. Yeah, but it's funny, like you know, he's yeah, of course, he was amazing. I mean, how you y you know, but when you're also surrounded constantly by the best in the world.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

I mean comparison is a thief of joy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Exactly. So um if John's figured out this new trick, oh I can double track and then I don't have to actually worry about that so much, that would make sense.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

So yeah, it's it's kind of cheating, but it's uh tools are the trade, I think, really. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Maybe that's to do with intentions or something. I don't know. It's cheating, but I don't I just don't think it matters.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

It's cheating, but I'm okay with it.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah. Kinda. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Yeah, I mean it it's for anyone listening today, it's the how the majority of music you've ever heard is being made, right? So it's one of those things that when I first started, kind of, you know, for me starting guitar, it was always I just wanted to be a campfire guitarist. That was all I ever wanted. Um, you know, my great uncle, he was the one who inspired me to play, and and he was never uh the best musician in the world, but around a campfire after a day of hunting or fishing, like there was just nothing better uh in the world. So, you know, yeah, that was kind of the only place I ever wanted to be. And I used to compare how I would play and how I would sing to recorded tracks and not realize that there was all of these, you know, uh compression and recording software and and multi-tracks and all this sort of stuff. So it is it's kind of like one of those things where you compare your, you know, your background scenes to somebody's Instagram highlights. Right. It was the same sort of thing. So that was um that was a bit of an aha moment for me when I actually learned a bit more of how the sausage was made, so to speak. Yeah. Um yeah, it's it's one of those things that I don't know if it is well known from people who are, you know, outside of the the music world or who are not super interested in it. If you're just a passive listener, I don't know if many people know that.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Right. Yeah. Well, I want to come back to tech advancements and that dilemma later on. Um but just to start to document how the recording industry was continuing to evolve and constantly introducing things that would keep raising the alarm over and over again. Um and in the 70s, uh, this was when MIDI was developed, and MIDI is when you can use a keyboard as a trigger and get it to play um whatever sounds you basically apply to it. Um so most of us use MIDI in the studio now because you can just open up the MIDI and then you can be a violin or you can be a banjo or whatever. Um you know, I I would still insist it's never as good as the real thing, um, but budgets tend to inform these things, you know. So um MIDI is now really, really common. Uh and then samples was the other thing, and sampling was massive. Sampling is obviously behind uh especially in the rap world um and all of that without hip hop started from sampling. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Have you have you heard the story about um uh did you see what was that documentary on Netflix? Like what was it called? I always forget the name of it. An amazing story uh about the beginnings of hip hop in the seventies and so on in Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

I thought I think I've heard of it, but I don't know if I've seen it. Yeah, yeah. Maybe that'll be another one to link.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

It really, yeah, it really um reframed a lot of it for me. The idea that these this community of people didn't have a voice at all and were often being mistreated, of course. And they um not having money didn't only mean sort of the stuff we normally think of, but it meant they couldn't just get guitar lessons or whatever. Um and so getting samples and using um using these loops and rapping over the top was just their way of of firstly making music, the best way they could think of of how to do it, and then of of actually making a statement and getting heard in a situation where they weren't being heard. And I was from that kind of rock background where back in the early nineties you either like rock or rap, you're in one team or the other team. And I shook that off pretty quickly, but um uh it that that just was really interesting to me. And in some ways, um I now think of early.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

I agree. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yes. That's right. Yeah, that's that's ringing a bell. Yeah, tell the story. Oh shit, I can't remember the details now, but I uh from a very vague memory, and I apologize if I get the details wrong, but I think there was a blackout and it was it early 70s or Um I don't know actually.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

I I would have maybe it's later. I thought it was later.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Maybe it's oh sorry, it must have been, yeah, because I think it would have been eighties and late 70s, early eighties or something. Yeah. But there was a there was a blackout and um there was some looting, and I think a bunch of PA equipment and turntables and keyboards and stuff like that might have been.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

All the equipment that they used to make.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

And that was the stuff that you could you could throw over your shoulder and carry out. And um, you know, it it basically birthed. I mean, I think there was I think hip-hop was already sort of starting, it was already bubbling away, but that seemed to be the the impetus for a big explosion. You know, all of a sudden there was more gear out in the in the city and there was more people um having access to this, yeah, and all of a sudden you have this this big explosion of that, and you basically have a whole new genre being invented.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

So and I I actually didn't m um plan in uh on going into this, but I remember uh in the late 80s, early 90s, there was a big debate around about is rap music because they're not singing notes, they're just talking basically was the criticism. There's no instrumentation, they're just playing loops. Um and I remember being quite confused by that argument back then. Uh and I think at times in my youth I was convinced by it. Yeah, they're not even singing. No one's playing anything. This isn't music.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Pitch, rhythm, timbre, and dynamics. You love this guy, don't you? Yeah. Well, I mean, I keep I keep coming back to it. You know, it's one of those things that the more I think about it, the more I think he is right in a lot of ways. Right. Um that's those sort of those do tend to be the things that you can kind of hold your hat on of what is and what isn't uh music and what are acceptable tools. And I think I think it's the tools that you use um that's where it kind of, you know, the sort of technique and notation.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

That's the sort of spot where I think um there's a bit of room uh for a pretty broad interpretation of what you think is acceptable and is not acceptable. And and I think that's a pretty personal thing as well, like where do you hang your hat on on what's music and what's not. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah. Another thing I was gonna note from that same time was um the beginning of MTV. And the reason why I think that's interesting is because um one of the concerns back then was that now being a successful artist wasn't just about audio, it was now about visual. It was about how you looked and what your video was like and things that weren't to do with music, which may seem trivial to some, but the I think that problem becomes more important as the years go on. Uh so I think it's just worth like putting a pin there and just going, that was another another little dent in the armor.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

A an inflection point for the industry for sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I agree. So much more. I mean, uh the visual aspect of it has always been an element of music. You know, even before MTV, you've got the Beatles appearing on the Ed Sullivan show, you've got um, you know, Elvis the Pelvis doing his moves. Um, and and that was the same sort of thing where it it's a bit different now. There's all of a sudden a visual um and a you know visual aesthetic aspect of it to it as well. Um that was very new at the time. So I do agree. I I think MTV was sort of that inflection point where that almost became as important. Yeah. Um, you know, that was where you sort of had the explosion of music videos and stuff, and that was sort of when I was coming up and learning about music and stuff. So uh uh a large number of songs that became big to sort of my musical journey was stuff that I first saw a music video of, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Um I mean I've also thought about it in another respect that often the people who became great musicians were a little bit rejected from society. And they were on the outside and then they kind of found each other. And so the musicians were often like misfits and weirdos and you know, kind of nerdy people and things like that. Um and often like super weird-looking dudes, you know, and things like that, you know. Um and then it became a little bit more of a um good-looking popularity sort of thing. And I think that that's continued on to the to this present day, where um where if you're good looking, you've got a better chance of being a successful musician, which is a sentence that doesn't really make any sense to me. Whereas on the last episode, we we realized in the moment that we have a mutual love of super trap. They must be the ugliest band.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

I mean, I d I shit, to be honest, I still don't I can't really picture what they look like in my head. You know, it's I just for me, I always had my dad's CDs that I would listen to when I was doing homework or studying, and and it was all about the music. It was it was nothing but auditory experience.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Well, I mean I'm also a big fan of Billy Joel, and I mean he's a he's a pretty cool looking guy. Um, but he was often um criticized back then because he was sort of short and has that he doesn't have that like I guess stereotypical good looks about him. Um I still think he's cool looking, but but um he wouldn't have been, you know, I I don't think guys like that would have won any kind of competition or you know uh so I think that there was something lost there where it became also about the visual because it changed it and it added a new judgment point or something.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Agreed. Um I do think we're kind of seeing a bit of a natural pushback on this now. Um, you know, there there seems to be a bit of a rise in these uh for lack of a better term, like anonymous bands, you know, th thematic bands that have you know that have big costumes and stuff, like I mean Slipknot back in the day was one. Um but I think even more so now there's a whole bunch of these that are popping up and becoming very popular. And I think uh obviously there is an aesthetic uh portion with the the costumes and the outfits and the get up and whatever the lore and the gimmick. Yeah, there is, there is. Um, but it is interesting because it can't be just, hey, that person's pretty, I want to listen to them on Instagram, right? It is very different where either you enjoy whatever the gimmick and the aesthetic is, but it does kind of put a bit of the focus back on the music.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

I would say though the gimmick is just a new version of the same visual problem. I mean, I find gimmicks off-putting. I know we we plan to talk about this in the future, but I find them off-putting. I I just want to hear really good musicians. I I just but I'm way more of a purist about things like that. And and again, for me it's not a rule, it's just about what what inspires me and what excites me. Um I've always loved watching good musicians when they're in the zone.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Agree.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

And when they're in that zone and they've got their head turned and their eyes closed, or whatever that whatever their zone looks like, to me that's the most fascinating and inspiring thing to watch. And I just don't get the same kick out of watching someone, you know, looking at the camera and knowing how good looking they are, or um someone wearing a horse's head because it's funny and it gets the clicks. You know what I mean? I agree. It just doesn't just doesn't do it for me.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

I agree. I I think I mean flip side of that is there are pretty people who still can tap into that as well, you know. It's absolutely I don't think it's like me. Exactly. Yeah, but I mean you're right though. It is I think some of the some of the trends you see in social media where people are sort of overproducing their the really miming or mimicking the playing or the singing over the video. Um I do think it it kind of goes back a little bit to the whole double tracking and are they are they is it a bit fraudulent, you know, are they are they trying to pull a fast one over us? It almost doesn't feel authentic. Even though I'm sure the music is them, they've played it, um, you know, nothing against that, but it it does sort of feel a bit disingenuous. Yeah. And I know a lot of people sort of compare their own playing or their own singing to what they see on those on those short Instagram reels that are, you know, heavily editorialized, and um I think it can be detrimental in general uh to people's um own personal development. So I think as long as people are aware that you're you know you're comparing to somebody else's um highlights that may not be as realistic as you think. Yeah. So as long as people are aware of that, I think it's okay, but it I do understand what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Or when you're saying that, you know, uh what did you say a minute ago, um it's still them singing, right? Is it? Because with modern recording techniques, there is not only vocal layering, but there's also auto-tuning and quantizing. Yeah, but then heavy comping is another one that people don't talk about so much. So for people who don't know these terms, shall I just go through them real quick? So auto-tuning probably speaks for itself. Um you can you can tune vocals all sorts of different ways. You can just apply a plug-in and set the key or set it to chromatic. Um, you can go in there manually and and actually manually move pictures up and down and do things like that. Um, there's a variety of ways you can do it, but you can get an out-of-tune performance and put it back into tune, is the short of it.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Um you need to show me how to do that. Now we're talking.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Um and that's and and everything we're talking about right now, by the way, is basic. Like anyone with any basic recording software can do basically all of this stuff. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

That's not the the barriers to entry have have drastically reduced.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

And also, one thing, one version of that that surprises a lot of people is you've been able to do this live for almost 30 years. Where they it it used to be a device that looked like a VCR um player. And I believe I assume these days it's probably just a plug-in or something with that all these big digital desks they've got now. But um you can again just set the key and and uh and you can control the intensity. If you turn these devices up way too hard uh hard, you end up with the sound that Sher had in belief that they turned into a T-Pane, that hard tune. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That they turned it into a feature idea. Um and now it's on every second song, but overuse, you know. But um uh that's the technology. So when you hear someone live and you go, my god, they were you know great at at pitch control, it's like, well, you don't know that. I always say wait until you've heard the singer sing through a crappy PA in a noisy pub. And if they can hold their own there, they're probably a good singer. Um so quantizing grounds.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

So so quantizing, uh, for those who don't know, is putting things back into time. That's another very common, really easy to do as well. You just get a performance. You can there there are um uh plugins that can automate this stuff, uh, but it's also just really normal to just go through a recording and chop everything up and move everything around and crossfade all the all the cuts and now it's in time. Um I think it's interesting because when you go far enough back in recording history, you you know, like the Motown band, for instance, would would write and develop the song in the morning and cut the record by the end of the day. Um they would land everything live with everyone in the same room, and therefore all the instruments would bleed into each other, so there wasn't much opportunity to do anything about it anyway. So everyone just had to land.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

How incredible are those recordings when you put it into that context.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

You know, I was thinking I was thinking even before we were talking about the single room mic and people having to be like the quality of the recordings that they got with the technology they had is just it's mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

But people often point out how great the engineers were back then, and that's sort of that's actually um adding to the point I was getting to is that the stakes are higher, so the quality was better. Like the the musicianship in the past was significantly better in those ways. There are people these days who are better musicians than past musicians in other ways. Like I noticed that young people these days know more about theory than I think probably any young generation knew about in the past because they've grown up in the YouTube and whatever, um, able to look everything up. But but um the engineers back in those days, uh let's say from the 50s through to the um seventies, eighties or something, they were absolutely incredible. What they had to achieve with very, very basic equipment was unbelievable. It's astounding. Yeah. And then you've also got these musicians who just had to land their performance uh knowing that if they made too many mistakes, the the simple solution is they just wouldn't get hired again. It's as simple as that.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

I mean, I feel like a large part of that too would be the fact that they had to play live for so long. Yeah. You you would have to be, you know, your timing, everything has to be so tight because if it's not, you're not gonna get that callback. You're not gonna get that second gig because you know not to mention the industry hadn't fallen apart yet.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

So there were there were um studio sessions all the time. They were really, really gig fit and studio fit, you know. Uh so yeah, quantizing is that and then the comping thing, comping is when you take, let's say you do a vocal performance, you're recording a singer, you might record um 50 takes, and the sometimes the the big stuff is m many more takes than that, and then they'll go through and they'll often cut every single syllable and look for the best one out of all those takes, and then stitch all of them together. And then they um do the layering and then they do the tuning and then they throw all the effects on top, and you end up with something that is in no way representative of what that singer can actually do. Which is why I think a lot of people who really appreciate a good live singer start to check out at that point.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Yep. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Well, it wasn't a question, I mean that's just what's going on. I'm just stating what's going on. Yeah. Um I remember being in the studio once doing so I was really struggling with this this line. Um uh it was just too high for my vocal range, basically. And I think I did seven takes and I just couldn't hit this note. And I said to the guy, Man, you must think I'm a I'm a Muppet, I just can't hit this note. And he said, he goes, Don't worry, man. He goes, last week um we had these guys here and he named this well-known band who I won't say, uh, but they were famous for their vocals. And he said, Um, we took 130 takes to get one line. Shit. And I remember going, okay, that makes me feel better. I don't feel so bad now, yeah. Yeah. Um right, we better have an ad break. Do you want to go for that? Do you want my turn?

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Yeah, you go for this one.

unknown 36:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Do I get in a yard, Grace, because I don't have a voice? I can read it if you want. Could you? Yep.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Yeah, no worries. Whether you've never picked up a guitar or you've been playing for years and feel like you've hit a wall, Auckland Guitar Lessons are for you. Lessons are one-on-one and every session is built around your goals, your taste, the songs you actually want to play. All the fundamentals of technique and theory are covered in an accessible way and applied within the songs you're learning. So you progress faster and actually enjoy the ride. If you've always wanted to play, now's the time. If you've plateaued, Auckland Guitar Lessons will unlock your playing, rebuild your confidence, and get you moving again. Head to aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz or email info at aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz to find out more.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Are you sure you haven't done radio before? It was one take as well. I can read. Well, I can read. That was almost like happy happy Gilmore just going, isn't it easier just to get it in the hole?

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Yeah, just do it in one shot.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Yeah, brilliant. Um so uh let's get into the history of of new tech being rejected.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

I mean we've kind of been we've kind of been touching on that throughout all this. Um I think the samples in the MIDI um is a good point to kind of touch back on again. You know, it's it's one of those things where I mean you do this as a as a producer, right? You uh you come up with, I'm sure, drum lines and bass lines, and you do that through a keyboard or through through MIDI, and you put your notes in the scale and and you you quantize your timing and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Well, everything I'm criticizing I do all the time. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

I mean that's that's modern music production. That's the job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was was there a big pushback on that when that started? Because I mean, I'm not very aware of that. If it's just kind of like just the the overproduction of the samples or, you know building up lines without actually playing the the instrument that you're imitating.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

I think musicians are always arguing. I think there's there's just debates always about all things. Uh I remember dropping out of school uh when I was 16 and getting a job in a studio back in 1995. And uh our the recording this is the first time I had ever seen digital recording software, and it may have been one of the first programs. I don't know what the first program was. It was called Soundscape, the one that I was using, which I believe was later brought up and swallowed by another one, maybe Q Base or something. Um and it was really interesting. You know, I could I could go, okay, I get the scissors, and I cut that bit and I moved that bit and whatever. Anyway, we were making an album for this um this guy, and he just plain couldn't sing. And it was really, really hard, really hard to get good performances. And at one point we worked all day on one chorus, and we finally got a chorus. And then he went off for lunch, and the producer said, just get that chorus and copy and paste it across the other choruses. And I remember going, Can you do that? And he goes, Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Cheating on my homework.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

And I and and again, it's another thing that's common these days. Just copy and paste, man.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Yeah. We got it good on that one.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah, yeah. So um I remember that feeling pretty, you know, like naughty. We're doing something very naughty uh when we did that. But I think everything's always been debated for sure.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

I know it's it's one of those things that as just a uh you know a casual fan of music over the years, um, especially when I started playing guitar, and I'm sure a lot of you know YouTube taught or self-taught guitarists probably fall into the same uh pitfall as assuming that this way that they played the song in the recording is the only way to play the song. Right. And I have to learn the techniques that I found in so-and-so tab, or else you're not playing it right.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

And you know, it was one of those things that um definitely through lessons with you and breaking the song structures down a bit more and learning all the different ways you could play the same thing on the neck. Um that's really opened my eyes to just how much more fluid this stuff is than I think I ever realized at the time.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

I just thought of an example. There was a uh a solo, um, the solo for Hard Day's Night, which I tried to learn when I was about 18. And the solo goes. Oh that right? See if I can get that clean though. Now I could do that, but what I was aware of when I was listening to was that I see I'm hammering to do that. Oh that instead of going and cleanly picking everything. And when I listened to the recording, it was pretty obvious to me that it was all cleanly picked. And I was like, how how on earth did he play it so fast and cleanly pick it? Because it's just an awkward little riff. Um and I was puzzled about that. I was also aware of the fact it was early in their career, so he was only like 22 or something when he recorded that, probably, I'm guessing. But um, but I remember just being completely stumped by that, and I remained stumped about that until about four years ago, when I um I think it was the interviews that Paul McCartney did with Rick Rubin, and they were uh it might have been those ones when they're listening to it to old songs and talking about them. And I th if it was that, then it would have been Rick that said um something about that solo, that's really fast or something. And Paul went, Oh no, no, he didn't play it like that. And he goes, What do you mean? He goes, We slowed the whole song down. He recorded that solo at like quarter speed or something or half speed or whatever, and then sped it back up.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

Ah, see it's the Instagram guys. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

I remember going I was so like in some ways like relieved, but also super annoyed because I've been puzzled about that since like the late 90s when I learned it.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

I do wonder at times if some of those techniques not being known actually sort of led to the sort of shred virtuosos we saw because I feel like they might not have known any better and thought, oh okay, well, I just need to learn to play that fast. Some of these guys did it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Well, you know the story about Tommy Emanuel. When he was a kid, he was listening to the radio and he didn't realize there was more than one musician on the song.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

And that's why he's so good with the melody over the Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

He learned all the different parts at the same time, and then apparently a few years in, someone said, You realize there's more than one person playing person playing, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Not like you're good enough.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

And he was like, Oh, but at that point it became his thing. Yeah. Oh, cool. I never knew that. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, I wrote down a few other examples as well. Like you talked about Liz Paul. Um, I mean, the electric guitar itself was controversial. We all have heard about when Dylan went electric, you know. But even like Miles Davis bringing electric guitars into his band was controversial. Same with the electric pianos, electric organs, fender roads and willitzes and things, because it wasn't pure, like a proper upright, you know. Um then of course there were synthesizers, they were like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

Yeah, they got all sorts of shit. You're you're playing computers, you're not playing instruments anymore.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Yeah, which they sort of were, yeah, you know. But I mean, this is where we're we're we're heading though, is uh w when do we lose touch with what's actually being played as an instrument. Um drum machines, of course, in the eighties blew up. Um weirdly they didn't take on like people thought they were going to take on. Like drummers at that time thought it was going to put them all out of business, but they weren't convincing uh as replacements for drummers. They were more effectively used as a new idea. Good for like a jam track or to get something out, but or they just had a put it had a sound to it, like that really, you know, type that type of sound you had in the eighties, uh, whether it was like hip hop or or if it was um some of that really sonic pop music and stuff where they leaned into samples and drum machines and things. Um but it didn't replace, you know, it didn't put Jeff Bicaro out of work. He was still working a lot, you know. Um but it did eventually, years and years later, put drummers out of work because now you can now you can simulate basically anything. I don't work in the studio very often because you can simulate it. Or you can hire a rubbish guitarist who doesn't charge you anything and then fix it with all the tricks. You know, why why pay Danny money when you can get someone from down the street to just, you know. But but um then there were also the genres that were seen as as evil and bad and and and whatever. I mean, jazz was once rejected as being this rebellious, dangerous thing, and so was rock and roll, obviously. Um I mean, we've talked about hip-hop already, that was that was a bit of a game changer and controversial one. Um but even if you go heavy metal as well. Yeah, exactly. But even if you go way back, the piano was. I learnt this in my research.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Oh, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Because it was it was um the harpsichord was standard, and the piano came along, and what do they say here? When it replaced the harpsichord, it was considered too expressive and emotionally manipulative.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

So I guess this this debate has just been going on forever.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Exactly. Um the organ, famously the organ, uh was seen as too loud and pretentious and a distraction from worship. And of course it became the definitive um church instrument, but the church were the ones who rallied against it at the start. I think this goes back a few centuries or something. Um and uh yeah, so this is just sort of continuing on and on. I don't know how relevant that is to our question, but it's somehow it is, I think.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

It's interesting. It's interesting either way.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah, exactly. Um but catching up to where we are, where where are we now?

SPEAKER_02 45:41

I think you've kind of touched on this briefly where you've said, you know, that's not playing an instrument. Yes. And where I would like to touch on that is do you need to be able to play an instrument to make music? Right. And it seems like nowadays you don't. And you know, it's one of those things where is that still you know, are you still a musician? Is it still authentic? And one person that I'd like to bring up is Jason Becker. Do you know his story?

SPEAKER_00 46:06

No. Also don't know who he is.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Okay, Jason Becker is somebody that I would highly encourage everybody to learn about.

SPEAKER_03 46:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Um, there was a documentary put out in 2012 called Jason Becker, not dead yet. And he was a a shred guy, uh a virtuoso. He was playing high-end uh classical music, you know, on guitar when he was like 13 and 14 years old. Um basically learned, you know, all of Clapton's stuff, all of Eddie Van Halen's stuff uh at a very young age. Got signed with Shrapnel Records, I think, when he was 16 or 17 years old. Um just unbelievable player. Now, it's not music that lights me up. I'm not a I'm not a huge fan of shred guitar, um, but I'm I've always appreciated the technical prowess, you know, the the ability that somebody shows to be able to do that, and he's doing it live. You know, it's not it's not Instagram, it's not sped up. This is this is what the guy was playing.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

So much skill. So much skill.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

It was incredible. Yeah. Um his first band he was playing with Marty Friedman uh in a band called Cacaphony. Um he went or later went on to play for Megadeth. Um, just Unreal guitarist, he put out two albums. Uh first one was in 1987, 1987, second one was in 1988, um, did a solo album and then ended up signing with David Lee Roth. He was gonna be the the next guitarist after Eddie Van Halen and Steve Vai.

SPEAKER_04 47:26

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Um and a year before they cut the album with David Lee Roth, he was diagnosed with ALS.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

What what's ALS?

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Um uh Amiotrophic lateral sclerosis. But you said that normally Lou Gehrig's disease. Oh yes, so Stephen Hawking's. Um he's probably one of the most famous examples. So, you know, this is somebody who has built up all this incredible technical prowess. Um you know, I I always kind of push back on the on the prodigy and and talent argument, but there are some people like this guy that you go, okay, maybe, you know, maybe there are some people that do have just a natural proclivity for whatever their instrument or whatever their their music or whatever um technique they want to learn. Yeah. And he was definitely one of those guys. And so it does make it a little bit more heartbreaking that all of a sudden, you know, he's not able to carry his guitar in, he's not able to carry his amp, all of a sudden he's walking with the limp, and his disease progressed very rapidly. Yeah. Uh he lost he's you know, now he's paralyzed, uh, he's lost his ability to speak. Um all of his speech and communication is through eye movements. So um people might, if you're not aware of it, they they basically set up like an alphabet quadrant. So you every letter you want to do, you you do two eye movements. You do one for the quadrant and then another one for which letter in that quadrant.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

So you have to spell things out word, you know, letter by letter.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

It's a very arduous process, but uh he's got an incredible support around him. Once again, highly recommend this documentary. It is it's pretty um soul crushing, but it's just absolutely beautiful, the support that he has around him. Yeah, yeah. And he's still making music to this day. Thirty-six years later, he's making music with the help of the people around him, and he's uh it's a combination of old demos and recordings that he did when he knew he was starting to get sick. He, you know, just recorded as much stuff as he possibly could.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

And he's finishing uh his compositions um on a computer, basically using eye movements and like clicks uh from his jaw on a on a little sample pad that or telling people, you know, I'll move this note here. And what I think makes that more impressive too is the fact that the music he's making is this this incredible shred music that has a million notes. So his brain's able to pull all that apart and put those notes in individually midi. So he's somebody that learned the instrument to an incredibly high level, um, knew all the theory, you know, was just an absolute nerd for this sort of stuff in the best way possible.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

His brain's still making that music, but he's, you know, the technique is not there because he's paralyzed.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Wow. Interesting. Still a musician. I can see why you brought that up as well in terms of where we're going. Before we go into the probably the most obvious question that we're heading to, um, I also wrote down you know, how do we define art? I know at the start you said how do we define music, but how do we define art? And and I I should say that I've been in in the sort of arts world all my life and I've heard people argue about this constantly. I've never found it that complicated, to be honest. But I'm curious to know what your answer is.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

To me, I always just think of it as incredibly subjective. Um, you know, I I do sort of believe that uh beauty or art is in the eye of the beholder because I've known over my life, um I've always kind of had my heads in the cloud a little bit, you know, when we were traveling or we're seeing different places or different things. Um I was always looking at sort of the architecture and lines and stuff like that. And I kind of tend to find art in everyday objects. Um but I later learned in life not everybody thinks like that, not everybody actually is looking for that sort of stuff. So I struggle. I don't know what is a good definition of it. Um other than I think it's very subjective. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Yeah. In fact, you might have actually you might have just added um a different component to my answer. I think of it very simply that art is about expression. And one of the reasons why the conversation I think gets tangled up is because people then start to try and talk about what's good art or bad art. That's way more subjective.

SPEAKER_04 51:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

But if but if you just got down to like what is art, I think it's about the expression and the intention. And that often means we can't know if something's good art. Or something is art, I should say. Um because we don't know what someone's intention is. You know, and there are a lot of bands and artists out there who I suspect start to phone it in. They start to go, I know what's gonna sell tickets, let's just do one of those again. Um I don't think that's art. But maybe the first time they did that thing was art. You see what I mean? But where where you just added that new component for me was when you see art as a receiver where it may not have actually had that intention. So maybe maybe there's an architectural accident that that the person making it was just thinking about, you know, what time's lunch? Let's just get this done. And now you're seeing just this amazing marriage of lines and shapes in the light, and now you're having an experience. So m maybe, maybe it's a what's the reverse of expression when you have an experience with art? Yeah. Expression or and or experience.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

Yeah, agreed. Yeah. Agreed. And I think even with recordings, I mean, even with music, um uh whatever the musician musicians' intention is with the r uh music that they're recording, whoever listens to it on the other end, they might get a completely different impression. Right. Um, and and both of them are valid. Yeah. Right. I think that's good art is art that makes you feel something. It makes, you know, it's some sort of elicited emotion, um, whether it's positive or negative, whatever it is, it I think I think good art makes you feel something.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

That's an interesting point because as we know, a lot of pop music is formulaic. And that is not just the fact that they follow the same chord progressions and melodic structures and things like that, but it's also the fact that it's, you know, you look you look up the songwriting credits of a lot of these big artists, and there's like 12 people who wrote the song. It's it's it's written by committee.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

These group projects. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

These are corporate endeavours, you know. Um I think that that's very cynical. I don't see that as art, that I don't clock that as anything worth paying attention to because it's just like, well, yeah, okay, that's just what happens when a corporation makes music.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Yeah, is it art or commerce at this stage? Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Um and but in but still, their fans can absolutely have genuine experiences with that music.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

And so they will argue black and blue. No, it's art, it changed my life. I can't stop I can't not cry when I hear this song or whatever. Um they're right. And they they're right. And both of those ideas can coexist. Yeah, which I think confuses the argument.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

I agree. It's it's I mean, especially with something like this, it is so nuanced. You know, nothing is black and white. Right. So that's I feel like that is just sort of a natural extension of something that is so subjective and very personal. Yeah. You know, two people might listen to the same piece of music and and it might evoke a completely different uh response from both of them.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

But but our theme today is what is a musician? Which which I think it's it's good that we're circling these other subjects because they all play into it. Um and the big one we're heading to here is um to do with AI music, is AI music, music um is using AI to make music the same as using an instrument to make music. These are the modern questions and now being debated. Um that came up quite a few years ago for me was when DJs started to call themselves musicians. I was a guest on someone else's podcast, and I didn't know the host was a DJ, and I didn't know his audience were all DJs. And he said he that was the first thing he said was, um, are DJs musicians? And I just said, of course they're not musicians. I didn't even hesitate. Why would they be musicians? Why why not just ask me if they're farmers while you're at it? You know what I mean? Like, what are you talking about? And I only clicked later, like, oh crap, whoops. But um, but to me, um, that felt like a no-brainer because uh uh it you know, they're they're not playing an instrument. I mean, what do you what do you mean? Um and then someone would say, yes, but you know, um but syncing up the next song and pressing the spacebar is a version of creativity. Okay, sure, of course it is, but that doesn't mean it's mu being a musician, just the same way that I'm not a chef. You know what I mean? And so what I started to think in response to that was I I'm not having a go at you, Mr. DJ. Um you're trying to pinch my name, right? We we are people who play instruments and we take great pride in that. We spend years and years and years of our lives learning about how to do it. It's physical, it's technical, it's the whole thing. And then you waltz in with your space bar and pinch our title. Um, to me, that was the tension. It wasn't actually slagging off DJs. Do you see what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 56:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

And that's where I think sometimes these debates we find ourselves in become category errors where we're just fighting over the names of things. I felt this way about um uh musicians who are really like sort of more in the purist lane who attack pop music, and sometimes that's me. Um and I just think, well, if we just had a different name for it, all the problems would be solved. If it if if the pop music that was written and and produced by that corporate process, um using all those tricks, if there was just a different name for it, like corporate music or something, then it wouldn't feel like it competed with Stevie Wonder or Joni Mitchell. But there there is a strange disconnect. Like for instance, there was a pop artist that uh I was talking to someone about some years back, and they were claiming that this person was like one of the best singers in the world or something like that. And I was like, What do you mean? Like, how can you say that? I think it might have been a female pop artist. So I was starting to list other female singers that I love, you know. What about Aretha Franklin? What about Nina Simone? And they said a really interesting thing. They went, Oh no, no, no, I'm not talking about those types of singers. And and I said, What do you mean? And and they said, Well, I'm just talking about pop singers. So they had actually removed the defined the category before I got there. And they were saying, you know, no, I'm just talking in the context of modern pop music, we're not talking about the rest of music. I thought, what a strange disconnection to make or distinction to make. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:40

I think I think it is interesting though. I mean, that was kind of why I wanted to break down into those six main areas because I think that's pretty core to the discussion here. You know, you you just kind of touched on a point of of being a chef and kind of you know, comparing that. And I think, do you consider somebody a chef that only uses the absolute base ingredients and builds everything up? Or is it okay for a chef to use some pre-made ingredients? You know? That's sampling.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

Or is it are you a chef if you get everything that's already been made and just put it on the table? Well, that's the you're serving then, right? Exactly. That's my point.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Is that sometimes you there are grey areas, but it gets far enough away from it that it stops being it. And then it's just a category error. We wouldn't call them a chef, we'd call them a server.

SPEAKER_02 58:25

Yeah, I think I think the point I keep coming back to is the sort of the first four categories that pitch, you know, pitch dynamics, uh, rhythm and timbre. If if that's in the eye, you know, if that's in the mind of the musician and they're getting that out in a in a specific way that that they intend to, to me that's sort of where a musician lies. And I think the technique and notation part of it, we have tools now that are not eliminating that. I uh you know, there'll always be a space people like playing instruments. It is just fun to play a guitar. It is it is something that you can do that is relaxing, it's an enjoyable, it's a very visceral experience. Um, and I don't think that'll ever go away. No. But if you look at somebody like Jason Becker, who's paralyzed, but he has all of that mental capacity to still be making music, yeah, but he can't move his hands, he can't play that physical instrument anymore. He's still making music, he is still a musician.

SPEAKER_00 59:21

But remember, we're not debating what music is, we're talking about what's a musician.

SPEAKER_02 59:25

But that's what I'm saying. That's somebody who had the technique, had the ability to play the instrument, lost it, but he still has the mental faculties to arrange music in a certain way through the use of that technology, which is why I think he's a really good example to bring up.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

Yes, absolutely, because we were talking the other day about the AI thing, and we actually agreed in that conversation about our problem with AI. Do you still agree with that agreement? Refresh my memory. Well, we we were talking about how all of the ideas about what is actually in the music stops being a relevant argument because it's going to be able to replace everything, and basically it already is. Um But we both said there's something weird about the disconnection. About how like I think you said when you're creating string sections for an artist as a producer, um would you call that being a musician when you're actually doing it with your mouse and clicking here and there and there or whatever? Um and I said no. I said, what I'm doing is musical, there is musicality involved, I'm using my musical understanding to do what I'm doing. But I wouldn't call that me being a musician. I'm I'm just calling that me programming the string section. Um and to me that doesn't f feel confusing. I'm just not being a musician. I'm not like using my brain and body to express myself through uh an instrument. Um and when we were talking about AI, we started to talk about the kind of the disconnect of going, I would like something that is big band but has a hip-hop beat and that has a voice like Whitney Houston, and then you go whoop, whoop, whoop, and it pops out. And and we use the word in that conversation, delegation. It's not you're not actually the person doing the job, you're just delegating the team.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

And that that's where you and I, at least the other day, went, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

No, I still I still do agree with that. I think that you know that's kind of more in the realm of co-creation or delegation, like you say. I think um I think it'd be one thing to use it for inst inspiration. Um but yeah, I think uh I think you just said recently like brain and body, and I think that was an interesting point. And I think my point is uh I consider anybody a musician who is um pulling that stuff from their brain or however, you know, however you want to define consciousness. But if that's if that's where the musical inspiration and the ideas are coming from, I would still consider it being a musician, even if you are using MIDI and putting stuff in uh on a click. I think it's a different type of musician. Yeah. Um I think there is incredible, you know, there's an incredible amount of value in learning how to play an instrument, and I think that unlocks a whole different area of your musical brain. Yeah. Um, and I think it's something that should be highly encouraged. But I wouldn't say that somebody's not a musician if they can't or don't have that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

I think I I think again this comes down to stuff you can't measure or see, like intention. Um the example of of um what's his first name again? Uh Jason Becker. Jason Becker. Um that is a tragic story. And to me, there's nothing controversial about the way he's now making music. He he's just doing what he can. You know, I think that that makes him exempt of any criticism, you know. Um when it comes down to someone who just can't be asked learning to you know, I don't know, they're just like whatever, let's just do this and let's just put it. If it's a lazy, complacent and it's not expressive, then I wouldn't call that music. But I I can't I I'm not arguing that I would always tell the difference.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

No, yeah, you you probably wouldn't, to be honest. Um I think you're right, it is in the intention and the effort for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

Because I think also the other problem with AI is that um and I've I've some people I've spoken to have really dismissed this. I just don't know why. But I think AI, it's pretty obvious that AI doesn't have a backstory, it doesn't have a l a lived life. Um and that is so important when it comes to creating art. And and it's funny how people quickly just go, ah, whatever. It's just it's more about just the structure of notes. And I'm like, I don't think it is. Like, we always like the story. You know, we we for some reason we all know the Beatles come from Liverpool, you know, or we all know that Andre Bajelli is blind, you know. But we just know these things because they add to the story and they they help us understand how they got to that that moment and that emotion and that that little croak in the voice, and you go, oh you know. Um there's something amazing when you find out that Stevie Wonder played all the instruments on some of those albums and didn't sound like one person playing the same thing, and then you remember, shit, and he was blind. How did he play the drums when he was blind, you know? Um there's something about context and story and a life lived that is part of art. And I think that anyone who denies that, here's a big here's a big statement for you. I think anyone who denies that has never really understood what art was in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

I actually think I agree with you. Oh my god. No, it's I think the I think the one point I would kind of stick on is just I don't think the technique is necessary to to call like that's why I want to keep going back to that. I don't think it is absolutely necessary, but I think it adds a whole bunch to technique. I I yeah Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So it's it's one of those things that I think if I do agree the backstory is important, the story that somebody's actually trying to tell, I think that does come through in the final product.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

Um and you know, the more shortcuts you take, um, I think that's gonna show in the final product.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

Maybe it won't, maybe as AI gets so good, we'll never be able to tell the difference. But I do think this kind of goes back to the whole the canned musicians and keeping music live, right? It's um people will have a little bit of a natural pushback. People like going to see people play music live. They like seeing someone on the edge, uh, you know, they like that that tight rope walk without the without the net underneath, and that's what you get with live music. Right. They could fall on their face at any moment, you never really know, especially when they're playing songs that are at the edge of their technical capability or at the edge of their range or something.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:26

Um and I think that feeling and that emotion that it uh that it evokes in uh you know a full stadium or even just a small pub gig, you won't necessarily get that. Um if it if it's not if it's not live and if it doesn't mean something to the performer.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

I just want to come back to when you said a minute ago that you agreed with me. That's the main thing that I want to focus on.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

We agree all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:49

Do you want to do the call to action?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

Sure. If you're enjoying the show, leave a review on Apple Podcasts and tell a friend. It helps us grow and we really appreciate it. And make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Can you really give them some more net? I'm just joking. Now we're going the other direction. So what's our what's our verdict? Where have we landed?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

Um for me, I think a musician is anyone who speaks that language of elicited emotion through the manipulation of sound. And that is a pretty wishy-washy vague answer, I know. Um there are varying levels of prowess, professionalism, technique, uh, creativity, originality, depth, and nuance. Um, you know, these are all things that whether or not you're making it yourself with all the individual elements or you're making it on a computer, I think you still need to capture all of those elements for it to be music that actually will elicit some sort of emotion, either in yourself or in the in the end user. Um where I sort of draw the line is when it gets too abstract, and and like you said, it's basically delegation. If it's just saying, hey, this is what I want, make it for me, um that's sort of where I draw the line. It's that's almost in like you said, delegation or some sort of form of co-creation, but I don't think it's you're not the the driving force of the create you know, of the creative output. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

I think uh I I agree with all of that, and I think um the addition that I'd like to make to summarize or to to to you know conclude is that we now live in this world where we have all sorts of options in front of us that we never used to have. We could spend all day staring at our phone and it and to realize that that's not the best way to to live a fulfilled life, um put your phone down, engage in the room, is a decision we have to make that that m you know the world around us won't tell us to make. We have to be our own pilots and make these decisions. Um and I th I feel that way about lots of things. I feel that way about social media, I feel that way about all sorts of things where where uh even information, when we were when uh I mean you're younger than me, but when when we're growing up, um information was really hard to come by. And now we've got a tsunami of it all the time, and we have to try and figure out what how to make sense of it all. Um I think it it's a lot more on each of us to curate our own lives. And I think when it comes to things like being a musician, we've been um kind of assaulted from so many sides. Our craft keeps getting taken away from us. You know, we're we're now in a very busy, noisy world competing with a lot of stuff that isn't real, that synthesized, that's you see what I mean? Um I find that as the world around me gets more and more um confusing and harder to trust, I find myself narrowing down to to more and more pure experiences in life. Uh and I can say that at all sorts of things. I mean, at the moment, you know, AI is so good at making um convincing videos, um, sort of, I just don't really watch any anymore.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:55

So for me it's uh it really makes me think about the quality of my life and how I want to spend my time. I don't want to hang out with people who constantly interrupt the conversation because their phone just buzzed. I'm so sick of that. You know what I mean? So to me that's like a deal breaker.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

Um so I want to hear people play, I want to hear people express themselves genuinely. Um yeah, does that make it make sense? I think so. Yeah. Didn't say that as well. I'm gonna I'm gonna keep blaming my voice for my lack of intelligence. Well, if you've got any thoughts on today's episode, pretty opinionated episode, which is what we intend to do more of, um, this is where you can take part and comment on Facebook or Instagram. Uh we decided that Spotify does or doesn't have a comment option. I think it does. It does. Okay. Um where else do people comment? Apple Podcasts. That's another place. Um or email us, I guess. Um somehow let us know what you think, and we'll we'll we'll happily return to these subjects. Uh it'd be really good to hear from everyone. So, before we wrap, what's our next episode going to be about? Dynamics. What the hell does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:02

I don't know. You'll have to tune in and find out.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:09

A minor.co.nz or email info at Aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz to find out more.