3. Tommy Emmanuel: Re-Release

Back in 2017, Danny and former cohost Bobby Kennedy sat down with the legendary Tommy Emmanuel. With Tommy returning to New Zealand next month, we're re-releasing the episode. Since Mike is hearing it for the first time, we discuss his reactions and thoughts, knowing he's about to see Tommy live for the very first time too.

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:20

I like the fact that we just played uh we both played eardrums at the same time. Catchy. I take it as a compliment. I wrote it. I wrote it. I'm gonna get rich off the royalties. Yeah, hopefully. And you made it. You got here.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 0:35

Yeah, you caught your dog and and uh your dog ran away, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Yeah, well it's it's the typical thing, you know, when you have a day where you have a tight schedule, those are the days where inevitably they go, screw you, I don't want to leave the park.

SPEAKER_07 0:48

Was it the giant dog or the small? No, it's the little one.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

The big the big one's always um really good outside of the house. Right. Inside of the house, she's a she's a bit of a demon. And the other one, it's the complete opposite. She listens like an angel in the house, and outside it's just her world and I'm living in it.

SPEAKER_07 1:03

It's like that with in real life, isn't it? It's the short guys you've got to be careful about. They're the schemas.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah, no comment.

SPEAKER_07 1:11

Well, we're here today uh to talk about um actually an old episode, to re-release an old episode that I recorded back in 2017 with um Tommy Manuel. And we thought we'd re-release this because he's actually playing in New Zealand again next month. Um in May. So and this will be your first time seeing him live, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah, I'm very, very excited.

SPEAKER_07 1:32

Yeah, you should be. Yeah. I often describe it as a face-peeling event.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

I mean, just yeah, the the the way that he arranges his melody and stuff, um, is it's incredible. Yeah, it's it's I've definitely seen other artists do it, but it you know, he always is sort of like the OG in my mind for that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_07 1:50

Exactly, yeah. Well, just before we we talk a bit more about that, we also thought it'd be funny to talk about um a great comment we got on Spotify uh about our episode which was called uh what was it called? What what is a musician really? Yes, what was a music yes, exactly. And it took I had to read this a couple of times to follow it, but I'll read it. And what is an artist? Elephants can be trained to paint, but are they truly expressing themselves through their painting? If they are, artists. If they're doing it for the peanut, pop stars. I read that the first time and went, what?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I like the pop star dang.

SPEAKER_07 2:29

And then a couple of moments later I'm like, ah, right, yeah. So um that's an interesting take on it. That's we talked about intentions quite a bit on that episode. And uh that's am I reading that right? That if you're doing it for the money or whatever, or the equivalent of peanuts, the stand-in for peanuts, that's the wrong intention. That's what they mean, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I mean, that's kind of I also kind of think of it as if you know the the music or whatever you're doing is coming from a place of inspiration that that you're doing as opposed to somebody saying, you know, here's the trick, go do it. Yeah. I think that's kind of how I take it a bit.

SPEAKER_07 3:01

What if you're a professional, a genuine artist, the real deal, and you're signed to a label and you have an expectation to get the album out by the end of the year, and you are required by contract to go and find your inspiration. Hopefully the peanut is inspiring. Well, that was a that was a great comment. Thank you, Tracy, for making that comment. Um so you had to listen to this episode with Tommy for the first time. I hadn't actually heard it since I recorded it, so I listened to it too, and took me a while to get used to hearing myself talking nine years ago. Um feel like a different guy, but that's all right. What did you what did you get out of it?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, I just I mean, one of the things that I thought was most inspiring by the talk is you know, hearing how he's still learning and improving and still taking that part of it very seriously. Yeah. You know, it's when you reach a level like Tommy's at, it'd be pretty easy to to rest on your laurels, but um he's clearly not doing that. You know, he he's from all I mean, I still watch uh a couple recent interviews as he was leading up to this um this tour that he's doing. And yeah, it's the same sort of comments that he made to you in, you know, 2017, which is which is really cool to see that you know, the consistency and the longevity of somebody's career like that, it's really impressive.

SPEAKER_07 4:14

So yeah, I've I've formed an opinion that a true musician, in fact, probably should have said this on the last episode. A true musician is someone who's who's always learning and is always pursuing the next thing. If you stagnate through laziness or complacency or success, I think in in my mind, by my narrow standards, you stop being a musician. I think a musician has to be it's almost like you're always looking for the next thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

I think that's one of the most exciting parts about music is you know, there's no peak to this mountain. You can learn until the day you die and still never never learn at all. So and I think that's one of the most exciting parts of it. Is just continuous improvement and being able to play or do something um tomorrow that you couldn't do today.

SPEAKER_07 4:57

Yeah, exactly. Should we just go straight to it then? Yeah, sounds good. Let's have a listen.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

I don't know how he does it.

SPEAKER_07 5:08

That's completely not true.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

It's completely true.

SPEAKER_07 5:13

I've got all of this now, and I've got all the you know, extra decorations. Extra decorations.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Do you do you remember when you dropped me and Lizzie back at the hotel and it was a Saturday night, and there were people out everywhere, and all these people walking past us, and Lizzie said, Look out, Danny, don't run over those hookers and drug dealers. And I'll never forget, without a bat of an eye, he said, there was so much judgment in that statement. I do remember that. You and Liz were like like this all the time. She was always wanting to have a go.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Well, what I'm really interested in is because we we talk at what talk to a lot of professionals, creative professionals, and I read that you became a professional musician at the age of six.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

How did that happen? What what is that all about?

SPEAKER_03 6:01

Well, being a professional means getting paid for what whatever your service is, you know. Yeah. I I think. Yeah. Um and before my before my sixth birthday, we were already a band, my my brothers and sisters, and we we started uh getting some work. We started playing for uh dances and and being you know guest artists on other people's shows and stuff like that. And um and then by the time I were uh I turned six we we were pretty much ready to take the show on the road. Right. And what the uh the the th the thing that happened that really kind of uh sealed it was we were we had w uh entered a band contest and the prize for the band contest was a television appearance. Right. And 'cause it was hard to get on TV in the in the uh in the early sixties. And anyway, so we we we won this band contest, we got on the TV show. So I remember that day very well because as we're driving to the TV station, my father was telling me, if somebody asks you your age, tell them you're seven. And I wasn't, I was six. So this was the weirdest thing. My father, who would give me the floggin of my life if I told a lie, is now telling me to lie. Yeah, right. Right? So that's another reason why I can't forget that. And and all the way there, he he you know put it into me. You're seven, you're seven, if anybody asks you, because it was against the law for anybody younger than seven. Seven was the legal age you could go on TV. Really? How about that? I don't know why. But anyway, so we we played this show called Six O'Clock Rock. Yeah, and you know, um I was fairly animated. The rest of my family were, you know, uh concentrating on playing their instruments. Yeah. But I was like the front guy, I was very I was much more animated, and whenever the red light came on near the near the uh camera, that's the one I we took after, you know. And uh and it turned out that there was a a television producer visiting Australia from uh Los Angeles, right, and he saw our spot and saw the the crowd go crazy when we when we played. And it came up to us and to my father and and uh was you know wa waxing lyrical about our abilities, and um uh he said to my father, you know, you really need to get these kids on the road. People need to see this family, people need to hear this music and all that. And I think my father took that on and we went back to our little town of Gunadar and we sold up our house, and we bought two station wagons and a tent and a trailer and some better equipment and all that, and we went on the road. We got a what we call a forwarding agent, we got a guy who went like three weeks ahead and booked a hall and put up posters and and put the show on kind of thing, you know, and we hoped that people turned up. In the old days, the way that that it worked, you couldn't afford advertising as in newspaper or radio at our level. So what we would do is we'd send the agent ahead and he would go into the butcher shop, the news agent, the grocery store, the you know, and he would say, if you put this poster in the window, here's a free ticket for the show. Right. And so that that that that's that's what they did. So you'd fill a room too. Well, yeah, you might get, you know, fifty people to your show and there might be twenty-five complimentary tickets. Yeah, right. So it wasn't the lucrative business, let's say. Yeah, the the Emmanuel Quartet burst onto the scene and quickly went broke. That's that's really what happened.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

And you sold up your house and everything. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

We uh you know, several times in my life, I was talking about this on stage last night. Several times in my life I've risked everything. Yeah, you know, yeah, and I'm so glad I did because as scary as it may have seemed, it wasn't that scary to me because it's like even if this even if the worst thing happens, I'm still gonna be okay. Yeah, you know, yeah. But uh by that I mean like um uh you know, I I was doing well at at school, I had uh good jobs going, uh I I was playing in a band that during my high school years. Uh I I was teaching guitar two days a week. I had a lawn mowing business, and Friday and Saturday nights I played in a band playing dances and stuff, and I was getting I was earning good money, I was very industrious, and I was only 15 years old, you know. And so but I left all that because I I had such a burning desire to to go to play with the big boys, you know, to to be around people who were much better. Uh-huh. And I wanted to get I I'd heard so much about what was going on in Sydney, and I wanted to to be there. I wanted to be with the big guys, yeah. And I mean, I I really wasn't aware that I that I was not qualified for that, but I that's what I wanted, you know. And um I'd already learned by that time how to almost bluff my way through through things that I didn't know a lot about. I could I could make it work somehow, you know. Um and I I'm not recommending you do that, but I'm just saying that that's what I could do. Every day I had to be resourceful and and you know make it up as I went as I went along.

SPEAKER_07 11:54

But back on the on the family side of things, w what was the type of music you were playing? And was it your mum and your dad who are in the the other two in the band?

SPEAKER_03 12:01

You and your brother No, it was my brother Phil playing lead guitar. Right. It was my eldest brother Chris playing drums, and my sister Virginia playing the lap steel guitar. Nice. And we were a quartet and we played music by The Ventures, the Shadows, Dwayne Eddy, Peter Poser. Oh yeah. Yeah, right. I mean, we we played exciting instrumental music that you could hear on the radio.

SPEAKER_04 12:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

And then my sister played genuine Hawaiian music, and we put Lays on and and and uh you know, and I did the uh the the Maori strum. Right, yeah. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Was it known as that back then, or did you What's that?

SPEAKER_03 12:42

Was it known as the Moldy Strum back then? No, I just made that up. Right, right. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 12:46

Well, was it true that when you first heard the radio as a kid you didn't necessarily realize there was more than one person playing? Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Yeah, that's how when when I heard uh the shadows, I wasn't aware of the bass guitar. So I thought the rhythm guy played the bass part. Right. That's what my little teeny pea brain told me. So you just thought, well, I better learn how to do that then. I learned how to do that, I worked it out. Right. That's uh like you know when you're you you hear a record and you go, how can I make that sound? And so you keep looking until you find what you think is that sound, right? And that's how I learned to play the guitar, really. That that was the way it all came about. So you've had no formal training in terms of the channel. I've had no training self-taught at all. I don't read a note, I've I uh I know what I'm doing kind of thing, but uh um I I definitely don't have the knowledge of somebody like you know Larry Carlton or John McLaughlin. You know, I don't have that kind of knowledge theoretical theoretical. Exactly, you know. Like Larry Carlton could say, Okay, over these changes you could play this mode, blah blah blah, and you could flatten that five and you could and it would sound good. He could tell you in great detail, like a scientist, how it worked.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

I pick up the guitar and and I hear a sound and I I play what I what I f what I think. You know what I mean? Like like what w what what I want to what I want to sing over those changes is what comes out my fingers. Right. Right. Okay. There's a uh there's a definite direct line from inside me to my fingers uh via my my my brain. Right. So and it happens instantaneously. Like when you watch George Benson take a solo. You can see his mind working, yeah, you can see his hands working, and then you can feel his life in every phrase. You can tell he's listened to Charlie Christian, he's listened to you know uh uh Where's Montgomery? Yeah, you can hear the the source of his mojo in in his playing. Yeah, and it's the same for all of us, really, I think.

SPEAKER_07 14:49

And when you were playing with the family, was the environment really supportive or was it more demanding and high pressure?

SPEAKER_03 14:55

It was i it wasn't uh demanding and high pressure, it was just a lot was expected of you. Right. Um and you were expected to do your job when you walked on stage and to not take your eyes off the audience and my father would stand at the side of the stage, and if you looked over, he'd just like give you this dirty look and point straight to the audience, scare the crap out of you, you know. And i if you made a mistake, you better leave by the other side of the stage, you know. Wow, yeah. He was a taskmaster, my father was ex-military, so he didn't take fools kindly. He was not afraid to put you in your place. Was he a performer? No. And to tell you that you could be replaced, you know. You know, he used that a lot on me. Right. Well, we'll just have another son. He he had uh we there were four boys and two girls. Ah, okay. But my father was crazy about music and he was he must have been so proud of us be because he waxed lyrical about us. He taught he bragged about us at a nauseating level that was embarrassing, you know. Yeah. And um of course I think because we were simple country folk, you know, I think that um uh my parents and everybody around us saw, you know, that uh fame and fortune is what we're headed for, and that's what you need. You need to be a star, you know. But for us, for especially for my brother Phil and I, we were more interested in playing the guitar and and learning new things and discovering new players. Right. And my brother, who is th nearly three years older than me, was you know, is still is one of the kindest people I know I've ever met because every single thing he worked out, he his ear was more advanced than me. And he was only interested in lead guitar. He wasn't interested in anything else, just lead guitar. And uh so he would hear, you know, something like um a solo on a Marty Robbins record, and he'd work it out, and then he'd say, Hey idiot, get over here and learn this. And he'd show me, you know, you know, and uh and uh and then you know the first thing when I grew up and uh was 18 years old, my brother was like, Have you heard Jan Ackerman? Have you heard Jeff Beck? Have you heard uh Led Zeppelin? You know, have you heard Dark Side of the Moon? You know, it's like my brother was like constantly feeding me. Did he feed you Chit Atkins or did you discover Chit on your I I heard Chet on the radio and was I had one of those moments where when I heard him play, I didn't know what he was doing, but I knew that that's what I had to do. Whatever that was, yeah, yeah, that's what I had to do. Nice. You know what I mean? It was like that's your destiny. Yeah, and you you you don't even know that word at that age. But that's really what happened. And the funny thing was when I got to know Chad Atkins and I was sitting talking to him, just like I'm talking with you guys today, he told me the same story. He said he was uh living on a farm in Columbus, Georgia, with his father and his stepmother, and his father gave him a little radio set, a crystal radio set to build, you know, Radio Shack, build your own radio, and he put it together and he got a signal, and the stronger signal was coming out of Cincinnati, and he heard Merle Travis on the radio, and he said, That's what I've got to do.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Shit, that's a beautiful story. What an amazing story. It's true.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Yeah, when he told me that I got chills just like right right now. Yeah, and there's something that like you know uh the circle of life, you know, the Lion King. Yes, you know, well, I grow up, I become king, and then I go back into the ground and the antelope eat me and blah blah all that. There's something in that, and it's there's something to do with our our lives and our destiny. And um I think people who find what they're meant to be doing and don't go getting distracted by all this other stuff that's going on around them, you know, the grass is always greener scenario. If you stick to your mission, somehow your life is much more fulfilling instead of always desiring something else. Yeah. You know, if you like like when I was in my mid-thirties, I'm 62 now and I'm finally growing up, you know. Um but um when I was in my thirties, I I had like an epiphany, and and I just realized one day, you know, I've got to stop worrying about not being as good as this guy, and not and not you know, being a different creativity to this person, and I'm I'm I'm never gonna be an actor like Tom Cruise, or I'm never gonna be a drummer like Dennis Chambers. Or you know what I mean? Yeah. I I stopped all that and I said, you know, I have to concentrate on being me the best I I can. Right. What can I get out of my own whatever gift I have? Yeah. How can I make the most of it that will benefit everyone else and and give my family a a good life? Yeah. Because the bottom line is you you you've got a daughter now, you've probably got three coming. I don't know. But but um, you know, it's up to us to hand on a better world than the one we came into. Yeah, that's right. And that and that's not only just the environment, it's everything else as well. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_07 20:26

Well, I'm I'm one of the things that I'm curious to find out about is is your relationship with music and and how that developed. Because when I've worked with you and seen you play, what what really occurs to me is that you're not in your own way. There's an there's an ease between you and the music. I notice a lot of people are quite self-deprecating or you know, they've got they let they let their insecurities and fears inform their process where you're Yeah, you know what I call that?

SPEAKER_03 20:53

Yeah, the shitty committee. And they're the ones who are inside your head telling you you are not that good.

SPEAKER_07 21:00

So how did you get that committee out of your head?

SPEAKER_03 21:02

The committee is still there. I just put them in their box. Right. Right. Every now and again. Yeah. And I have to remind myself to do that because they will come in. Right. You know, and I say, you know, what are you playing this old shit for? Yeah. Or whatever, you know. Yeah, yeah. I don't know whether I'm allowed to say that or not. He's got a filthy mouth. Okay. Yeah. Um but um you know, uh it doesn't take a very smart man to uh see the reaction of people. And even if it's I I know I'll never be able to write something that perhaps is as good as Billy Jean by Michael Jackson, right? I may not be able to write a song that will do that, that will change the world, that will be on on everyone's lips for the next few years.

SPEAKER_05 21:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

But I can write a song that enough people tell me, oh my god, that song touched me. It took me so Some place, blah, blah, blah. I tapped into their soul somehow through that music. And I didn't do that intentionally. I was just trying to write what I felt.

SPEAKER_05 22:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

And that's all. So something happens when I play and I don't know what it is. And then that's really honest. I don't know what it is. Right. But I know it's there and I and I see it. And I believe it because I see it.

SPEAKER_05 22:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

It's not a matter of I've got faith. I you know, I do have faith in myself and a lot of people around me. But but what I'm trying to say is that when I see what it what happens to people, I know that okay, I may not be pay getting paid a million dollars for this, and I may not be as important as blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_05 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

But what's going on this very minute is pretty important in these people's lives. That's right. So you know, I I better give it my best. That's how I kind of look at it.

SPEAKER_07 22:57

And do you think because you're performing from such a young age, you had that interplay with the audience at such a young age, it's almost like you didn't have time to to let those voices get too loud before you went out. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Well when you're young, you don't you don't care about anything, but but um you know, people loving what you do. Right. And the more that you uh be be uh outrageous kind of thing, uh the more people get stirred up, and so people see you as a good entertainer. And that, you know, and it it unfortunately it feeds your ego as well. Right. So, you know, uh I I did have a moment in my life where because as I said, I came from the country, a simple country, uh I I wouldn't say I was ignorant, I'd say I was uneducated.

SPEAKER_05 23:44

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

And so by the when I got to Sydney thinking I was gonna play with the big boys, right? The best thing that happened to me was I was the first time in my life I saw someone much better. Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and uh I'll never forget this night as long as I live. It was in a place called French's Tavern in Sydney, and um there was a band playing, and I first of all I had come from being on the road with uh Buddy Williams and Slim Dusty and so country acts. I was playing pedal steel and banjo and guitar, singing harmony, working the lights, fixing the flat tires. I was doing all that normal guys on the road show business stuff, right? Yeah. But I at that time I was the best guitar player I'd ever seen. Nobody could hold a candle to me, right? You know, I could play all the Chet Atkins tunes and Jerry Reed tunes, and I could play uh James Burton's solos in Elvis Presley's songs. You know what I mean? So I was like, I was pretty fabulous, I thought, you know. And so I get to Sydney the first night I go out and see this band, and the first solo, it's like someone punched me in the stomach. Punched you in the ego. Exactly. Punched me in the stomach, and I was like, whoa, what's that? You know? And uh and then he took another solo and was like the power of he played three notes and it like nearly knocked me over. Right, you know, and I'd never felt that before. And I kind of whimpered out of there, dragged myself out of that club like a like a pup that someone had kicked, you know. But lucky for me, I didn't go, right, that's it, I'm gonna slash my wrist. I didn't do that. I said to myself, Well, Jesus, you've got to get to work. Yeah, right. You it's time to get working. You're not even doing anything, you know. And it was a moment that that slapped me in the face. Right. It was a great moment.

SPEAKER_07 25:36

And that's something that's always stood out to me about you is how hard you work. You know, I I I remember just you're constantly playing whenever we would stop for coffee or stop at the airport, or you know, you'd whip your guitar out. Yeah. Um, I think this might be the first time I've seen you without your guitar. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

This is the first time I've left the hotel without a guitar. Right. Because you you didn't mention bringing it, and I thought, you know, I won't assume to bring it. Yeah, no, fair enough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 25:59

But I mean, I just a lot of people who I when I have conversations about you talk about how talented you are, and they talk about you um in a way almost as as if you're a mystical figure, some sort of godlike creature. And I always say, well, he is amazing, but you're looking at someone who's worked very, very hard.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

And I can continue to do that.

SPEAKER_07 26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

Yeah. I mean, uh there's a there's a um what's the word? There's a dilemma in my life, and I've always lived in that dilemma, and I'll tell you what that dilemma is. In order for me to push myself to the levels that I believe I can reach, I need to be working a lot, right? I like to work. If I've got a day off, it's like, hooray, I've got a day off, and then it's like, oh shit, I haven't got a show tonight. Right. You know what I mean? So I'm like, oh great, yeah, we got a good schedule. I I've got today off, I can read the paper and have a cup of coffee and chill out. But within about 10 to 15 minutes, I've had enough of that. I'm ready to play a show, you know. And um, and the problem is, is that uh I I I I have children, I I have a family, and I I want to be with them and I want to be a better father. But I'm so concerned about my playing and what I'm doing in my career that I need to be working a lot. Yeah. And so I have to live in that dilemma of a big part of me w wants to be home with my family, but there's something strong that's that's forcing me to do what I what I do. Right. It's like I'm called to do it and I can't not do it. Yeah. And it's a bloody dilemma. Yeah. You know, and when I was younger, I would drink to that dilemma until it it quietened down, I would drug to that dilemma until it stopped festering and you know. And then eventually I realized that all that stuff is just masking it. Why don't I face it and look at it and talk about it? Yeah. And and uh and it was a great moment for me. And uh it was good for my health and my my family and all that, and you know, I stopped trying to destroy myself uh little by by by little, you know. And um uh when you when you get that sense of freedom of like, you know, just just give everything the best you that you can, then it kind of sets you free. You know, it's the same principle as you know when people say, uh, how does it feel to be the best this or the the number one that, blah, blah, blah. And it's like never ever think of that stuff. Right. Because it me you start thinking that way, you're gonna be carrying it like a huge weight on your shoulders. Yeah, yeah. You know, and you never want to do that. I want to walk out on stage and know that it if I do my best, then that's what I do. Uh the audience will like it, I think. And I'll please myself if I if I give the audience a great time. If I don't play well, I'm I'm only mad at me. You know, it's like and but I'll I have to move on from that and say, I'll try again tomorrow. Yeah. You know, you have to do your best, but sometimes your best doesn't come up to where you feel you could be. But you know, hey, I'm not a machine.

SPEAKER_07 29:26

Well, I remember once I asked you actually when we were in a van somewhere, and I said, Um, did you try was your goal to become the best? And your your answer was beautiful. I've told so many people um your answer was no, I never tried to be the best. I always tried to be slightly better than yesterday. Yeah. And I thought that's a perfect answer. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's realistic goals, isn't it? I mean the way that I've expanded on that is if you try and be the best, you spend the whole time failing. You know exactly you're measuring yourself against something else not real or not attainable.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Yeah, well, and when you travel as much as I do, you'll realize that the world is full of better players than you. Yeah, you know. But I play my way, I play my songs, I'm just really grateful that people like it and I can have a good life doing what what I do and trying to make a difference in people's lives, right? Um and um if I had to be in competition with somebody, you know, I would fail miserably. Right. But I don't have to be. Music is not a competition. Do you mean you would a spiritual experience? Do you mean you'd crumble under the pressure or no? I mean someone would come along and just wipe the floor with me, you know, easily. There are technically much more brilliant people than me out there. But I I like playing my songs, I like playing the way I do. And there's something innate in us that you know we need to be looking with gratitude in our heart of what we have. Yeah. You know, you know, I I'll never play the guitar like George Benson or Al DiMiola or you know, uh Django or anybody. Uh I'll never be able to do that. But I can do what I can do. Yeah and and and that that has to be good enough for me.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

And you said earlier, you said about uh you went to the Sydney nightclub and that guy played three notes that just kicked you in the chest. Exactly. It's he he only played three notes. That's right. Not probably not technical, but it's the way he played them.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

It was how deep it was. Exactly. Why did that note against that chord make me feel that way? Right. What the hell was that? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

That's what struck me. Yeah, so and then so you you're delivering your music your way and people connect with that. That doesn't you know you might not be say as you say as good a player as Al Demiola or um or Django, but um there is something about the way you deliver your music that connects with people.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

Well, if you can learn that and and and come from a from a uh point of humility with that um and don't strut around like like like a rooster expecting everybody to bow, then I think you're you're gonna you know enjoy doing your theme.

SPEAKER_07 32:07

Well I think I think competitiveness and doesn't work in music. I d I don't like the reality shows for that reason. Right. I mean, I always say to people, you know, would you race paintings? You know, how can you say like would you dance to architecture?

unknown 32:21

Exactly.

SPEAKER_07 32:28

No. But what he played was B. King. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And and who's to say that that's better or worse than Jeff Beck? Exactly. Jeff Beck is there's no one like Jeff Beck. No, that's right. You know, and and you shouldn't try and be Jeff Beck either.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

No, because there's only one. That's right. And that's it. There's only one e d one e one one of you too. That's right.

SPEAKER_07 32:47

We should all and we should all be trying to find our own voice. Exactly. I mean the interesting thing is when you when you go on let's say YouTube or Facebook or something and you see all these clips of people sitting down shredding or playing complicated stuff. And I always think that's great, but what do you what's the next step with that?

SPEAKER_06 33:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 33:02

Like what's your are you trying to make a living or are you trying to be entertained?

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Well, I I remember at one of my workshops um uh I was talking about songwriting and how important it is that your songs tell a story and go somewhere and that when you play people can feel what you're feeling, and you know. And uh a guy came up to me and he said, I just want to be a jazz guitar player.

SPEAKER_05 33:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:33

And I could tell by his demeanor and the guitar he was holding that he wanted to be like Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel. He wanted to play chordal melody and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And I said to him, Do you want to make a living playing the guitar? Or do you want to just play chord melody and be a jazz guitar player? Yeah. You know, and it wasn't an insult, it was uh I was trying to shake him to reality. You can do that, but there's nothing wrong with this other kind of music as well. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with you playing in a band, playing crowded house covers, yeah, and making a good living out of it that's right. You can still play your chordal jazz if if you want, but do you want to make a living? Do you want to have a family? Do you want to, you know? Yeah or it it's it's okay if you just want to do jazz, but you're gonna have to support yourself somehow. That's right. Yeah. You know? And it's no fun playing a whole bunch of these beautiful things to three people who don't care.

SPEAKER_07 34:34

And I think the the the great thing about music is that is that it's uh something that you can personalize, you know, and people can just learn to play, so at the end of the day, after a long day at work, they can have a glass of wine and play some, you know, some guitar or something. You know, you can you can play music on your own terms, you can decide to make it a career or it can just be a hobby or it can be a way that you interact with your friends, you know. Um I think it's just about getting your mind right about what you're trying to do.

SPEAKER_04 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 35:00

You know, and if you want to make it a career, that changes the whole dynamic. You know, you can't necessarily well, I suppose there are exceptions, but trying to make a career in a in a very narrow niche is gonna be very difficult.

SPEAKER_03 35:12

Yeah, I mean even somebody as successful as Jerry Reed in his in his time, uh and he's gone now, but but you know, even him, as good as he could play, as good as he could sing, yeah, as good as he could write, he still had to have letters of recommendation from Chet Atkins. Right. So the record company would know he's actually good. You know what I mean? Yeah. They couldn't tell on their own. Yeah. They couldn't listen to it and go, oh, that's just this guy's unbelievable. You know, you know. Like the some of the greatest musicians I've ever seen, no one will ever know. You know? People in Africa are playing music like you wouldn't believe. Yeah. And they just play because they love to play, and that's what they get up and play every day because that's how they live. Yeah. And for them it's pure joy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:02

I think also if you do want to be a jazz guitarist, you actually improve your jazz by learning how to play folk music. Or you know, you know, there's there's something about conflict and about things that don't matter. Like George It's probably the first time anyone's ever said that in history about folk music. But in the way that George Martin, you know, w came from a different direction to produce the Beatles. He wasn't typical rock classical and all that.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, Martin Taylor uh is a, as you know, a great, great guitar player and and a very, very funny man and a man of great experience. He's a person you should talk to sometime because he's such an interesting person. But you know, he has a great way of looking at life through his instrument, and he calls his guitar the poverty box. You know, here's a here's a guy with a beautiful car and a great house in Scotland with a gold Rolex on his wrist. He's a major success, right? Yeah. If you want to look at material goods, Martin Taylor's one of the most successful people I know. Aside from George Benson, you know, uh George is a phenomenal success and a phenomenal guitar player. Yeah. But he still plays just because he loves to play. Right. Yeah. You know? Um and all that sort of stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_07 37:19

Well, you surprised me in a conversation, and that's sort of where I was going with the conflict thing. Well, not conflict, but but just coming from different angles. Yeah. Because I asked you once about uh about trying to be a great guitar player or something, and you said you said, I don't know if you still agree with this, but you said I don't really think of myself as a guitar player, I think of myself as a songwriter.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Yeah, I'm a songwriter who plays the guitar.

SPEAKER_07 37:37

Right. And I thought that was beautiful because it was around the same time that you first played me Questions. Which I wrote here in New Zealand. That's right. I wrote it in Fongara. Yeah, that's right. And and you actually um you sung me lyrics that someone had written for. I don't know if those lyrics have ever appeared anywhere, but I can still remember some of them.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Yeah, but actually people send me lyrics a lot. Do they? Yeah, to to some of my songs. Um most of them are not real good, but but however, I take that as a great source of encouragement because if someone says to me, Are there lyrics for that song? I know I'm on to something. Right. As a music writer. Right. Yeah. Because it's made someone think, that line has made someone think the words and what it's about. Yeah. And therein lies, okay, this song it has a story, has a message. Yeah. It's not just a bunch of notes with a bunch of nice chords. Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_07 38:32

And you've made them feel something which which enticed them to write, you know.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

And that that's my goal. Yeah. If if I do that, then that's that's my confirmation. Ah, okay, this song's alright. Because I have to trust, trust my instincts, you know. I'm I I wouldn't say I'm an expert, you know. I would say I'm still trying, I'm looking, I'm learning, I'm I'm experimenting, I'm seeing what what touches me, what what makes me feel something. So, like for instance, there's a song I wrote called Ruby's Eyes. Uh-huh. And first of all, when I wrote the song, I didn't know what I was writing about. I was just compelled to write that night. Right. And I heard this chord in a James Bond film, and I turned the TV off and I found that chord, and the moment I hit that chord, all these ideas came to me, and I started writing this song.

SPEAKER_05 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

And then I got the verse part, and the verse was going really nicely, and I was all excited. And then each time I got to where the chorus had to come in, my my clever man songwriter in my brain, the one who has all the ideas and keeps tossing them out, was giving me all these ideas and I'm trying things, and it's all too clever. I then said it needs to be simple, and I so I wrote this what I what I thought was a good chorus at that time, real simple and everything. But then I started the shitty committee saying, No, it's it's kindergarten, you you can't do that, and then away it goes, you know. I had the song finished, but I was unresolved with it, you know. And it was because I was trying to be clever. Yeah. And eventually I had to surrender and say, it's right. This chorus is real simple. It doesn't need to say any more. Stop trying to force it into a different area, you know. So once I surrendered to it, I was able to go to bed, go to sleep. Yeah, I got up the next day. First thing I did when I opened my eyes is played it to make sure that I still felt the same with a clear brain. Yeah, yeah. And I did. I said, I'm there, you know. That's your instincts, right? So then uh I get packed, I have to go to the airport and catch a plane, and I start thinking about what's this song telling me? What's it about? What's this music about, you know? This is all going on in my head while I'm I'm getting to the airport and talking to the taxi driver. There's all this going on, right? I get checked in, I can't wait to get through immigration, I go to the lounge, I find a quiet spot, and I'm sitting there playing it, eyes closed. All of a sudden, I hear this little voice singing the melody as clear as a bell. Holy shit. Like an angel. And I open my eyes, and there was a tiny little girl standing in front of me, looking up, swaying from side to side, going la la la la la la la la la, singing the melody that I just written. And she's looking at me. My first thought was, Where are your parents? You know, I'm a stranger in an airport playing a guitar and you're standing right in front of me. And of course, her parents were sitting back and they were they were watching everything. As soon as I looked at them, they went like that, don't worry, it's right, it's okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

So I then looked at her and I kept playing, and she just kept looking at me and moving from side to side. And then eventually I said to her mother, What's your daughter's name? And she said, Ruby. I think I've just written her a song because I've never met anybody like her in my life. Yeah. And I got down and looked into her eyes, and there it was, you know, there was that such a soul, you know, such a beautiful soul. And she'd picked up on this melody because she was singing the melody to a total stranger, you know. Yeah. It was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_07 42:24

And if it had been this technical thing, she probably wouldn't have gone out of her head.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Yeah. And so um I called it Ruby's Eyes. Nice. And beautiful. That song really moves a lot of people. And yet the shitty committee were telling me that it was kindergarten. Right. You see? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 42:42

The great thing about their songwriting approach is that it does it's almost like it prioritizes you. Rather than exercising concepts, you're actually telling a story. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

And it forces you to stay on track with it. Right. Where where don't don't don't get too clever. Where does it want to go? Yeah. Use your instincts, feel it. That's how I write.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Where does the inspiration come from for you? Is it something that you you intellectualize, or as you you say your instinct? Does it just come and then you it's a feeling, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Right. Like for instance, um I watched a movie called Lincoln, and you've probably heard of the film. It's a Stephen Spielberg film, Daniel Day Lewis. That is a beautiful movie, and it's so beautifully done. There's something about the character of the Daniel Day Lewis plays that took me, it transported me to my childhood, even though it's a different generation. There was some connection between how I felt watching him and my memory of my grandparents, right, and how I loved my grandparents so much as a little boy. And I started thinking about all the things I used to do when I went to be with my grandmother and my grandfather, and one of my favorite things was sitting there with a little lamp and opening the biscuit tins and looking at the old you know sepia photographs from the first world war second world war and all that of my family my uncles who never came back from the war my my great grandfather uh working in a sawmill and all you know all this stuff and and and she would take time to show me these photos and tell me all about the characters even like that dog was you know Bill the dog and he died because of log rolled on him and blah blah blah all this stuff you know and that time with my grandmother was so precious and so enjoyable to me and so when I uh after I watched the movie Lincoln I was like transported I got back to the hotel where I was staying at Long Island New Jersey and uh uh New York and um I got my guitar out and I started playing this what was on purpose an old timey melody like someone sitting in the corner slowly playing the piano that kind of thing right so I start writing and next thing this song just unfolds in such a beautiful way and and I played it over and over and and I was in love with it. Loved the whole thing and I'm sitting there and all of a sudden I stopped playing and I heard people humming and it was my tour manager. He was already singing the song in the next room yeah you've you've infected them. Yeah but it was if if I didn't do it in that moment I being feeling that way and being transported yeah yeah by that film that inspiration may have just gone down the river and I it nothing may have come of it. But in that moment I grabbed my instrument and seized that moment.

SPEAKER_07 45:52

I know what you mean because there have been occasions where I've had an idea but something's been going on and I thought I'll get back to that later. It'll come back it doesn't ever come back.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

It doesn't come back and I think that's nature's way I think it's nature saying stop white man and do this for me you know something like that. Well I don't always write with a guitar in my hands I can write in my head if I'm inspired. And I watched that uh George Harrison documentary Living in a material world yeah and I was so inspired and you wouldn't believe it the next day I had to drive from Birmingham to Liverpool to play in Liverpool where George comes from and I'm driving and I'm writing this song in my head I'm so happy I'm so inspired by this this film I've just watched and I get the song mapped out in my head while I'm driving and then just for fun I start thinking about titles. I'm thinking what am I going to call this song you know it's it's got to be something to do with Liverpool it's got to be something to do with George and you know anyway I'm driving along all of a sudden the navigation says in 500 meters turn right on Hope Street and I said that's it Hope Street Hope Street That's it 500 meters and Hope Street was the title because I was playing in the in the Philharmonic hall which is where the Beatles played and I was staying across the road in the Hope Street Hotel. Oh there you go so when when you went through uh you know your your the the family band I'm guessing concluded at some point and then you're it dad died in nineteen sixty six yes he was forty nine he had a massive heart attack and died and you were I was uh I was in nearly eleven. Nearly eleven right yeah and was that basically the end of the family band? No. No what happened was after four days of mourning and my mother came out of her bedroom and um she got us all together and said we can stay here and and you can go to school and we can have a normal life or do you want to keep playing? Yeah and we all said we want to keep playing and she said alright we gotta try and get a job right so sh we had been contacted by a touring artist uh who was doing pretty well in those days his name was Buddy Williams and um he offered us a job so he took us on six kids and mum and a caravan and a car a four birth caravan and a car for all of us. So we all lived together in a four birth caravan on top of each other for the big yeah three of us slept in the double bed area so the where the table was where you ate went down and the uh bed across and you had the bed across and three of us slept in there. Yeah yeah yeah so anyway we did that for a while but then the child welfare department got wind that these children were on the road touring and they forbid us to play. They wouldn't allow us into South Australia and uh eventually they forced us off the road. And they said these kids have to go to a normal school and live in a house and all that stuff. So that's what you had to do then that's what we that's what we we we had to do.

SPEAKER_07 49:24

So did you go back to the same place you came from?

SPEAKER_03 49:26

No we we settled in a place west of Sydney called Parks where the radio telescope is. Oh right yeah the dish yeah and uh we went to we we rented a house and we went to school I I did uh the last year of primary school and then two years of high school. Right and then into my third year of high school I handed my books in one day and left and went to Sydney and and auditioned and got a job.

SPEAKER_07 49:57

At what thirteen or fourteen?

SPEAKER_03 50:00

Wow yeah were you actually allowed to do that or you're a little bit under the radar at that point I was under the radar I wasn't under my mother's radar she was it broke her heart right you know she wanted me to get a higher school certificate and and like my my brother had done. Yeah and uh she wanted me to be better educated and all that but I was just dying to get out of there and and play. Yeah there you ask 15 years old and Sydney having to lie again about your age probably presumably exactly now I auditioned for a guy named Lionel Long who was doing a TV series he was an actor and uh he was a voice actor as well and he was a singer and um he was just discovering uh in those days up until that point he'd done like Australiana music you know like Past the Billy Round Boys and uh click go the shears and all that sort of stuff he'd done that kind of thing and then all of a sudden he discovered Merle Haggard and Buck Owens and that there was another kind of country music out there. So it was an interesting stage that I came in on and he was doing this TV show called Homicide which was a police show he was doing that like three days a week and then Friday Saturday and Sunday he was doing very well in the clubs in Sydney and um and his musical director was leaving and uh I found out about it through a a bass player guy and uh and I auditioned for the job and it was really strange there were like six guys all of them were like in their mid-50s and could all sight read and were like you know f pretty flashy and all dressed up and like Elvis or whatever you know and um and then I I it was my turn to audition and Lionel picked up his guitar and he starts singing this song and I just jumped in I sang a harmony and he threw me a solo and he just looked at me and said well shit you've got the job just like that forget the other guys you know nice yeah and uh and I said well I don't read music but I think I I think I know how your charts work. Right because we what the musical director did was we went ahead to the club put all the music out talked the musicians in the band the drummer the bass player and the piano player talked them through the show and then r rehearsed it and then then Lionel would arrive and you know um we would get ready and then they would introduce him and I I would direct the band and he would come out and do his show as if we all knew what we were doing. But everyone was sight reading it except me.

SPEAKER_07 52:41

But I knew all the songs and were you confident through this process you know that you have like the confidence of youth or something it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 52:49

I I still can't remember how I got away with it but um it's because I I grew up learning songs so I knew so many songs. Yeah and if I didn't know the song because I was a song person I could hear the pattern in the song in the first time round and when you gave me a solo I knew what I was playing over. Right, right you know what I mean so it was like a synchroswim.

SPEAKER_07 53:12

Yeah yeah because I remember like you know I as a like a regular kid I would have social anxieties and you know insecurities and just normal stuff but for some reason there there was never a hesitation about the stage and about music. And I don't know what that was. I don't think it was because I was super confident. No it was just more that I wanted to do it.

SPEAKER_03 53:30

Yeah you that's how you're wired. Yeah you know it's uh I had the same issue I mean I was I was like uh a bumbling idiot around girls I had no idea because nobody prepared me for adult life yeah and so I was terrified of girls I was fascinated by them and wanted to be around them but I didn't know what what what the hell to do you know and uh and so you know as much as I looked like some young kid full of bravado I was terrified of women inside you know yeah and so I didn't know about that side of life. It took me so long to learn that. Do you think that's also because you weren't at school the whole way through? Well I think I don't think there was any father figure to talk there was no one talking about stuff uh to do with you know family sex or any of that kind of stuff. That was never talked about. Right. It was almost like taboo you know whereas you know nowadays with my with my kids I talk about stuff all the time with them because I don't want that to happen to anybody. Absolutely you know yeah and uh yeah I I hit a lot of brick walls when I was young and got myself into a lot of emotional stress because of not knowing how to handle things and how to be a normal person. Right. You know and the other thing is is that it teaches you that you are not your instrument you know you are you your instrument is just an instrument everything has to come from you. Yeah you know and you can't hide behind your instrument. Yeah you have to be you to the world in an honest and um uh uh way that that's why when I go on stage I make sure that I'm totally open and vulnerable right because that's the only way it truly works and people know when you know like I can see a player and just by watching him I I know he's going don't don't look at me too too too deeply don't I'm not gonna talk about me. Don't talk about me. Right you know yeah whereas I try to be I'm open and this is who I am and even and with all my flaws I'm still going to show you who I am because everyone has flaws. Yes you know what I mean? Yes and and I try to I try to be that way so if I've got real you know like I last night I I was I sang the song hurt right oh yes I'm talking about a a a heroin addict and and and a nine and snail song. Exactly yeah and and the fact that don't trust me I will hurt you because I'm a I'm a junkie you know and that song is really it's raw and real and I love that song right yeah and I I talked about my time in rehab and all that stuff last night on stage because everyone goes through shit like that. Everyone's been there there isn't anybody who's had a perfect life and and sometimes if you say you know well I had a problem with this and I this is what I learned about it and now I'm um I know how to handle it now. But at the time I went wild I did this I did that you know and it's like really yeah yeah you know well welcome to the real world.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

Had you planned to say that because I I you don't you don't have a set list do you just play whatever songs are in your head.

SPEAKER_03 56:43

No and I didn't do it any of the other nights I just felt like like it last night. And sometimes I use those situations to help me balance out my show better. You know like for instance the sound the other night in Christchurch was so wonderful that all I wanted to do was play and I had to make myself talk so I could just you know give the people a break from play and and and talk. I just wanted to play because where were you playing the Isaac was it the theatre royal or uh I can't remember yeah uh it was a nice place it was a nice theater. Cool yeah probably the theatre royal wonderful crowd but the sound was unbelievable yeah beautiful and then in um Nelson the night be the night after the sound was beautiful too and it was but then last night I played in Claudelands and it was big arena yeah arena right big PA the PA may as well not have been there because I didn't know even know it was on you know what I mean and that's what line array PAs do for you they're great for the audience and they're no good for the artist because you get nothing from them. Yeah so I just I was playing to a pair of monitors in front of me which I you know they're only there to help me hear the the front on the note and make sure everything's accurate. Yeah yeah so I had to stop feeling uh like I was on an island and and playing to nobody because the audience were actually having a great time but the shitty committee were giving me a hard time about how crappy it was and so in order for me to stop and and and get in tune with everything I had to talk about stuff that was personal and that helped me get through that show in a more soulful honest and real way rather than head down try to play well.

SPEAKER_07 58:34

Yeah you know I remember a a night we we played there was terrible sound on the venue. I was the support act I went out first and I struggled and struggled and struggled and and I tried my best came off stage and and you went on and just as far as I could tell you were having a great night. And I'm like man I wonder if it was me you know I wonder if I was just in a bad headspace or something. Right. And then you came off the stage and you had been smiling and you know doing the whole thing like usual, never missing a beat. And you came off the stage and the first thing you said to me was man that was tough.

SPEAKER_03 59:08

Yeah exactly.

SPEAKER_07 59:09

And I was so impressed with how you kept it together. You have to that that professionalism just had that had a real impact on me actually always think about it. Where did where did you get that professionalism from?

SPEAKER_03 59:23

Well I've I've played in situations where you know my training ground were the pubs in Sydney places where if you don't play everything as hard as loud as fast as you can you know you lose people's attention people had the attention of a three year old and um you got to hit them over the head with everything you got and you got to constantly do it. Yeah that was my training ground. Right. So even on my worst night I can still bowl you over with whatever I've got and sometimes you have to rely on playing power just to get you through. Yeah you know and but you don't want that. You want to be able to do something on an artistic level sonically musically personally everything. That's right. And that that's why I'm a concert player but if I have to I can bulldoze the crap out of you if I want you know because that's where I came from. Yeah and the nights that I did that and and gritted my teeth and almost had tears in my eyes from frustration of no one listening to me I would be driving home listening to Steely Dan or something and going I'm a concert player and I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna I'm gonna walk on stage and people are gonna listen. Yeah and that's my goal.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:42

Yeah you know and this is and you're talking about the late late teens?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:46

This is like the the mid seventies uh early eighties yeah so how were you making a living you know playing in people's people on everyone's records and like living where were you living? I was living in a house with three other musicians in in Bondo Junction. Oh yeah right and um I was making a meager living I was playing in with with different singer songwriter people playing guitar with this one and playing drums with that one and then uh playing commercials you know uh during the day or someone's record or whatever and then um um yeah I was just I was scratching out a living yeah like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

There'd be a lot of people in New Zealand I well that is to say I didn't know this but you played for Dragon for a wee while I was in Dragon for for quite a while.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

Yeah during the well in in eighty eighty four um I well let me go back further. In eighty one I did Sharon O'Neill's um maybe album I played guitar on the whole album and Sharon and I became really close friends and I loved working with her. And I thought she and I still do think she's a great artist. She's a great writer and um I just love her company I love how she thinks and and I love her work you know anyway her and I got together a few times and wrote some songs and everything. And then I was producing some artists for CBS and this team of guys um uh the guys who did Yothu Yindi um they were a production team and they were getting a lot of work in Sydney they were doing they were they were having some great success. Anyway Sharon rang me and said can I play you a track I'm not happy with it and um maybe you can give me some help with it. So I went over to her place and she played me Power the song Power and I loved the song immediately but but straight away I said well it's all wrong the production of it is all wrong the song has a powerful message and it's it's flattened out they've they've they've they've used programmed drums programmed percussion programmed keyboards and it's just going along like an ordinary three course meal we don't want that yeah you know we we we want this to be it's got to be powerful and I I listened to it a couple of times and I said let's put on David Bowie's modern love and she put it on I said you hear that that's what your track should sound like she said really and I said yeah I said give me a shot at it so so we we did we hired Albert Studios I brought my drums in I selected the mics that that to put on that kit I used a what we call PZM microphone a flat square microphone with a little sensor on it that you would normally put on the inside of a grand piano. Oh right like it it it picks up frequencies by r reflection yeah and it has a sizzling high end that needs no EQ you know what I mean? Yeah it's live and it's like I don't know it's it's got mojo somehow. Yeah a lot of people don't like it I like it on certain things so I put it on my snare drum and I put it on my overheads and I beat those drums with every ounce of energy I had and tried to get that sound that was like the David Bowie track. Right. And then I borrowed a Steinberger bass and I come up with this really big solid bass part and put that together put some percussion on it guitars sh um she did some keyboards then I I I got two two girls in to come and sing backing vocals that were really RB sounding Shauna Jensen and Maggie McKinney. Yep and all of a sudden our track sounds amazing and then I said we need this to sound like it was done in New York so let's get a New Yorker to mix it. Yeah. So and there happened to be a young guy who was working in Sydney working I think he was doing in excess or something like that. Right. And I said he's gonna cost a lot of money but he it's gonna be worth it. Let's have him mix it. So we did and it was a top ten record. It really launched her further up the up the ladder you know yeah and um and because of that that single she got offered the Body in the beat tour with Dragon. Right so and then she asked me to play drums so because her husband Brent was playing guitar. So I joined Sharon's band playing drums on the Body in the beat tour. So there was Electric Pandas, Sharon O'Neill, Dragon. Right we're playing entertainment centres big crowd, 2000 people. Nice and um we traveled all around Australia and we had a great time and every night Todd Hunter would stand at the side of the stage and watch me play drums. As he liked what what I did. I'm not a real technical drummer but I can groove and then that that that's what it needed, you know. Yeah. Anyway so we all got to know each other Really well, and Robert, the guitar player from Dragon, Robert was about to leave anyway and go off and do something else. And so Alan Mansfield joined on keyboards, and they asked me, and I joined playing playing guitar. Right. And then Don Perry joined from Jeff Rotel playing the drums. I didn't know that. So yeah, so then Dragon became Mark and Todd, me and Alan and Doan. And it was a hell of a unit. Yeah. It was a great, great unit. And um so that's how I joined Dragon. And my first gig was in um was out of town. It was in a place called Marimbula Marimbula on the south coast. And I I was working with my brother as a duo up until then the the Dragon first gig with Dragon. So I'd given my brother notice and I received a live tape of the band on a Friday, and the first gig was Sunday. So it was no rehearsal. I had to turn up and play the show cold, you know. And I'll never forget that. I was so exciting, but I I couldn't remember everything, so they were I had little charts written out with r reminders of certain things, you know. Yeah. You know, because some of their songwriting, which I the the reason I joined the band is because I loved every song. Right. You know? Yeah. And um, but there were certain passages where like the the the second verse doesn't go into the chorus, it goes to a bridge and then it goes to a chord. Unusual things, you know, I had to remember that stuff, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:36

And uh we've we've played a few of their songs. Oh, yeah. It's great, it's we know to such great stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:42

Yeah. And then I uh so I got the first gig out of the way and it was like exhilarating. Then we we all uh flew back to Sydney, we had a day off, and then we had some serious rehearsal. Right. And we did two days of rehearsals, and I got used to playing at that volume with that much equipment, you know, like they had the full rig, full monitor rig in the opera house in the rehearsal room for us to rehearse with. You know, like how many wedges do you want? You know, Mark had four wedges, you know, and he was his voice was so loud that I couldn't get anywhere near it, you know. So, you know, and then and I had a fender super reverb which sounded like a a a cat dying in the corner compared to what everyone else was playing. So, you know, I I I had to then rent some amplifiers and get a big sound and and away I went. And it was I had to morph into a a full-on rock player, yeah. Yeah. And um, so that was fun, and and it was great for me to be thrust into that world because all of a sudden I had a guitar tech. I didn't have to set everything up myself like I'd always done. Yeah. I had a guy who did it. He he knew what I like to drink. He he knew exactly uh how I w wanted things, and and uh, you know, so I didn't have to do a thing, you know, and all of a sudden it was like w um I I had just moved from a place I was I was staying, and I was living in a little hotel, and they said, Where do you want to be? And I said, Well, where can I be? And they said, Well, you can be in the Southern Cross or you can be in the blah I'm you're talking five-star hotel. And where do you want to be? And I said, Well, how about the Southern Cross? They said, Okay. So they put me in this beautiful hotel, and that's where I lived. Oh, beautiful. I lived in this five-star hotel playing gigs with Dragon, and it was so fantastic.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:38

Wow. And how long were you living in the hotel?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:40

Uh, on and off for nearly a year.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:42

Wow. They must have been making some money.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:44

We were, yeah. Yeah. Well, they were so they were so kind to me as well, and they were they really treated me like a family member right from the start.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:54

And um after about six months, uh um Todd came to me and said, Look, we we we had a band meeting today, and we we want to make you a full member. We we don't want you to be an employee. Yeah, we want you to be a band member, and that that's how we we think of you. Right. And it was so wonderful, you know. So, you know, my I thought I was getting a great wage, but you know, add m a lot more zeros to to that now, you know? Yeah, and it was uh it was amazing. It it really was. And then uh um, you know, we're playing a show in uh Shell Harbor Workers' Club, and we we come off stage, and our manager, uh Steve White, had driven down from Sydney, and he was standing at the side of the stage like doing this sort of you know dance like he was really happy. And and uh and I said, Steve, what's going on? He said, We're going to New York to record, and you're coming with us. And that that was when we did Dreams of Ordinary Men with Todd Rundgren.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:56

Which studio was it?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:57

It was uh up in um Woodstock. It was Todd's studio called Utopia. Oh, yeah, I think I've heard of that place. Yeah, and we did all of overdubs and stuff at the power station in New York. Oh, right in New York. That place is legendary. Oh, it was incredible. Yeah, but so he said, You're gonna be away for two months doing this album, and I've negotiated you a deal and blah blah blah. He'd negotiated me some amazing money, and he said, We figured that the record company should pay for the fact that we're we're taking you away from Australia where you make a good living. So I've estimated five thousand dollars a week. Is that all right? And I said, Yeah, that's about right jokingly, yeah, that sounds about right, and he said, Good, it's done. Right. So I I went over with the band and we stayed at the guest house near near uh Todd's studio, yeah, up in a place called Woodstock, New York. And um it was middle of winter, and there were snowflakes as big as a 50 cent coin, you know, and it was just it was surreal being there, and Todd was so great to work with Todd Rungren, as well as Todd Hunter. And um, every now and again we'd all take off down to New York and have a couple of days, you know, go into see musicians and bands and stuff and party on a bit and come back to work, and it was great. And then we got back to Australia and it just got better, you know. The Mark and Todd loved the uh Michael Jackson Paul McCartney video, say say say.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:32

And uh that was a guy named Bob Giraldi. Yeah, and so we wanted to have Bob Giraldi do our video, and lo and behold, that all happened as well, you know. So we then get the album out, uh the album gets into the top ten, we're on every TV show, and we're touring around doing Dreams of Ordinary Men. Um in 1987, we get offered the Tina Turner Tour of Europe, and it was 36 dates all around Europe, and she was the biggest touring artist in the world in those days. Yeah, 1987. And um it was an amazing experience, you know. We were playing in Paris one day and in Luxembourg and then somewhere else, and then you know, every big city in Germany, 65,000 people a show. Wow. We were coming out as a total unknown band. Yeah, we were called Hunter in in Europe because we now we're with Polygram and they marketed it us as a a New Zealand band called Hunter.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:37

Why why not Dragon?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:39

Um, because there was another band in Europe called Dragon, apparently. Okay. And uh that was a great tour. Yeah. It it changed our lives a lot, you know. But when we came back to Australia, we were ready to kind of you know really step up the promotion of the album. Right. And we got called to a meeting at the record company and they dropped us. They literally dropped us from the label that day after all this work. What kind of bullshit is that? Exactly. They dropped us from the label and you know, tore up the contract virtually.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:13

Did they say why? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:14

I found out because I went back to London to actually Sharon was in London recording her album Danced in the Fire with with a London producer, and she wanted me to play on a couple of tracks, so I went to London uh just to to hang out there and to work for Sharon and a couple of things. And the guys from Polygram in London found out I was there and took me to lunch and told me that the whole project was a tax deduction, and once they'd spent you know, a million and a half dollars or whatever they'd reached the point that they were supposed to spend, then they just dropped the whole project.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:52

That was because of your fee to go to to New York. You put that money so flexible.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:58

Todd Rungren, blah blah blah. That whole thing, it was them getting a tax break, you know, spending this amount of money because they had to spend it.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:07

That's shocking.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:08

Well, that's what happened. That's reality. Yeah. You know, and I only found out because they they told me the truth.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:14

So what did the band do?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:15

What well Dragon Dragon kept going for a while, and then I eventually what was going on was um Mark was becoming continually dissatisfied with with all that and disillusioned about the whole thing, and so he he his heart wasn't in it anymore, I don't think. And um and I was booking myself at clubs like the basement in Sydney and and doing three nights and selling it out, just me. Right. You know, and this was like the writing was on the wall. It's time for you to get going, do your own thing, do your own thing.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:52

Yeah, were you playing solo electric or acoustic?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:54

I was playing solo acoustic and I had a band as well. Right. And I played band stuff as well. Yeah. Um, but you know, um, in those days, I kind of took the reins of everything, I took control of my life in those days, kind of thing. Um, and I I had a bit of money behind me, so I spent the money on myself. I I invested in myself. Yeah. So what what I did is I said to the the the basement people who were really good people, I I said, I want to do four sheet of posters. And they said, Oh, that's gonna cost a lot of money, and we only do that for international acts. Right. And I said, I I'll pay for it, but I want four sheet of posters, a big poster, with you know, and I I want to do Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday night. Yeah, and instead of a five-dollar ticket, it's a twelve dollar ticket. Yeah, you know. Oh, we've never charged twelve dollars, so let's do it, you know. And and so I kind of took charge. Fantastic. And uh well, it was a little hard be because they were trying to resist me. They were trying to say, you can't do this, it won't work, and in our experience. But the that was a jazz club, so they were dealing with jazz people who didn't draw a crowd. Right. I was drawing a crowd. Yeah. So I said, let's just do it, and it paid off big time.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:15

And probably part of that also, because you're backing yourself, you raised your perceived value. You know, if you if you believe in yourself and back yourself that way, yeah, people tend to start believing in you too.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:25

Well right. I I could sit here and talk for hours about how I have invested in myself all the way and how important that that is. You know, if you're not willing to uh you know invest in yourself, then no one else will be either. Exactly. You know, I remember the times that I was trying to save money enough to get an airfare so I could go to from Sydney to Los Angeles, spend three or four days, get inspired, come back, write more songs, be a better player, blah blah blah, learn, save up and go and do it again. I did that hundreds of times. Where I would fly into LA, I would get myself booked as a baked potato, yeah. 30 people would come and see me, but it's a start, you know, and it would cost me money to play there. Right. But I needed to do that to get going.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:14

Have you ever eaten one of their potatoes?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:16

Yeah, it's good. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:19

I couldn't get through a whole one.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:21

Well, you know, the other thing is people don't realise is that there have been a many times in my life where I made the decision, do I have new strings or do I have dinner? Right. Oh yeah. That's been many times. Yes. And and what do you care about? I care about how good I sound. Okay, let's have the strings.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:40

No dinner for now. No dinner for you. So the the music industry's changed so much since those days. Where is it at the where do you see it at the moment and where do you sort of see it going for people who want to do music as a living or a career now?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:54

Well, it's uh l let me first say that the internet has been great to me. Um and I knew nothing about YouTube because I'm I'm a caveman, you know. I I didn't own a computer until 1999. Right. Right. Yeah. And it was a little old um uh whatever uh P what do you call it? Um HP or uh Commodore 64 or something. It was a little old thing. Anyway. A laptop? It wasn't a laptop.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:24

It wasn't laptop, alright.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:25

No, no, and I I I knew nothing about it.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:27

But you were travelling the whole time. How could you possibly have a desktop?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:29

I I I had it at my house.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:32

Right, which you were at like once a year or something.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:36

Anyway, I start getting booked in places like Sweden and Norway and Denmark and my first time there, and the shows sold out. Right. And it's like my my my agent rang me and said, Can we do two shows in one night in Stockholm? Because the first show sold out. And I said, I I'm thinking it's probably 150 people. Yeah. He I said, How many people? He said, 650. I said, How's that possible? I've never been there. He said, I don't know, but they've got a a waiting list, and the promoter wants to put on a second show. Can we do it? And I said, Yes. So I flew into Stockholm and played the first show, and the audience were were totally wild, and they were totally on to everything I was doing. And I'm and I said, How do you know about me? And everybody sang out YouTube. And I said, Right, what's YouTube? What's that? So, idiot here. I uh then went and looked on YouTube, and there I am with you know, Guitar Boogie, 1,600,000 views. I was like, What the hell is this? So I didn't know about it. People are already on to what I was doing in places I'd never been. Right. And that's what the internet did for me.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:44

Had you not I I thought you'd already been playing a lot throughout Europe uh up before then, because you must be talking about two when did YouTube appear? Two thousand five seven. So you're talking quite recently. Yeah, that's right. But I remember why when we first met, you were already touring all over the place. I was. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:00

But uh there were new territories that I hadn't been to. Okay. And then and I went from playing you know, I remember the first time I played in Norway, I had to play in a bar. Yeah. You know. And it was in a small acoustic, typical what people call an acoustic gig. Yeah. You know, is a bar in a in an Irish pub or something in the middle of Norway, in the middle of uh Oslo. And then the next time I came back, I played the concert hall. You know, I made the leap so quickly. Very quickly, yeah. And that's what the internet did for me. Right. However, let me just go on record as saying this hits on YouTube do not equal ticket sales. Right. Okay. Okay. That definitely is true. Uh because I have friends in the business who shall remain nameless, but other guitar players who have many more views than me, and they cannot get more than 300 people where I'm getting a thousand to twelve hundred. Right, right. Yeah. If there's anything I can say from my own experience, and I don't profess to know a lot, but I can tell you from my own experience, nothing takes the place of building the audience yourself. Yeah. Right? How long have I been coming to New Zealand? Since the 70s. I've been playing shows here every couple of years since the 70s. Yeah. I've built an audience. Every time I come here, I'm willing and ready to go on radio, on television. Doesn't matter how many times I come here, I still go on TV because what you need to know is that people are still discovering you, and that there are so many people out there who haven't a clue who you are. And if you're lucky enough that they see you, they go, Wow, who's this guy? You know, and it's like the guy sitting next to them may say, Don't you know he's been around for so long? But there's still people like that, you know. And you've got to realize that uh it's important for you to give the audience everything you got when you go out there. It doesn't matter how many times I've played in Auckland, which is probably hundreds of times, I'm still gonna I'm gonna give them blood and bone tonight as much as I can because I want to come back.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:05

Right. When you you said that uh about YouTube before about not equating to ticket sales, I read a statistic the other day that 55% of all streaming is done via YouTube, which is obviously a free service that people listen to music on these days, they just stream from YouTube. Uh what other effect has that had any effect on your record sales as far as you can tell, or your sales of your music? No.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:26

My I I in the old days it was all about selling product at at CD and record stores to get a chart position. Right? You don't get a chart position by plays on radio. You get a chart position by sales. People think it's the other way around and it's not. Yeah. So that's why in the old days, doing in-stores, uh, meeting people, selling product at at uh at the CD store, being willing to meet people, get a photo, sign it, blah, blah, blah, you know, that has a big effect on the chart. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And also doing all the major TV shows in a row to create a sudden awareness. You've got a new album out, you're doing the today show, you're doing the midday show, you're doing AA it's Saturday, you're doing Good Morning Australia, you're doing The Breakfast Show, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. A week later, you're in the chart. Yeah. It's it's not brain surgery. Yeah. It's it's uh this is how you market. You know, this is record companies know that, and pr promoters know that. Yeah. And artists should know that. You know, when uh like for instance, I've got a tour of Australia starting this week coming. I play Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane. I finished my Asian tour and I had five days where I could have laid on the beach in Thailand and had a little break, but I didn't. I flew into Sydney, I did radio and television every day. Right. Yeah. I'm fairly well known in Australia. I could probably sell 1,500 tickets in Sydney if if if I wanted. Right. But I still do the promotion because there's still a lot of people who either don't know you're you're coming or have never seen you before, or or need to be reminded each other. And it's important. A lot of artists are not willing to to do that. They'd they'd rather sit on the beach and have a break, work on their tan, and then then go to work. Love the lifestyle. Yeah. You can you can do that, and I have done that. But but uh it it doesn't matter who you are and and at what stage you're at, you still need to promote yourself. You still need to gather the troops around you to help you uh get to the public and and and uh create a better awareness of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:49

I actually saw you for the first time on Hey Hey at Saturday. Right. Really? We used to play over here. Yeah, that's the first time I ever saw you. Yeah, it was a great show. Yeah, it was a great show. I loved it. Used to play oh well on a Saturday here, just after it aired in Australia, that repeat it here. Huh? Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:02

But it sounds like what you're describing is is really building a solid foundation in your career which makes you more uh versatile and and more um what's the word? Like you can you can handle the ups and downs a lot better. Yeah. Um and I mean I've always been so impressed with your relationship with your audience as well. Like you take you take the time with and it's you know, all the changes that have happened, you've still got people that'll show up, you know. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:27

Well, even down to stuff like I people write to me on Facebook, people write to me through my management, I answer their questions. Yeah, I give them advice with well, whatever, I help them with whatever I can.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:39

People ask a menial question like, what kind of thumb pick do you use? And do you shave it down and blah blah blah? You know, to me, it to some people it'd be like, ah, you know, don't bother with that stuff. You've got more important things. Yeah, no, that but that's important to me. I'm gonna let that guy know what what what I do, yeah, you know, because I care about him actually. Yeah, you know, that's right. And um, and I I never want that to to end, you know. I was at the movies, I was telling Danny before I was at the movies the other day with my wife, and we were sitting there, and um just before the film started, I leaned over and I said, I'm doing something that Paul McCartney can't do. I said, Really? What's that? I said, I'm sitting here in a movie cinema with the with everybody around us, and nobody takes any notice. Yeah, right. Isn't it wonderful? You know, because um I mean a guy like Paul McCartney handles his fame so well. He's an expert at it. Yeah, and I love him and respect him and admire him the more than you could ever know. But I feel sorry that he can't just go down to Starbucks and hang out and have a coffee and and talk about Hoffner bases. You know what I mean? Which is probably what he'd love to do more than anything. Right, yeah. You know? Whereas I can go down to Starbucks with my friend and get our guitars out and sit and play in Starbucks in Nashville. And people love it and there some people gather around and sit and listen. You know, and it's it's a different level. Yeah. And and you know, it's really, really wonderful. Do you feel like you've been successful? I mean, what what's your version of success?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:23

Well let me hear from you first. What's your what's your version of success? I think just being able to do what you want what you'd love to do. That's that's successful.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:33

That's a good answer, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:35

What about you, Danny? I think um it's a combination of things for me. I think I think being able to work with great people, you know, um to love the craft. I think pursuing music is all wrapped up in in pursuing yourself and uh bettering yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:52

I've worked a lot of stuff out through playing.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:54

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:55

You know, uh I I think when you play your strengths and your weaknesses all come to the surface at the same time. Right. And it forces you to look at them and to understand them and to work through f a few things. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:07

You know, that's interesting. That's an interesting point of view. That your strengths and your weaknesses are there before you. Because if you if you're uh looking at them, you can say, What what can I uh how can I make the best of what I have? That's right. You know.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:26

And that making the best of what you have is is that that's how you get on in life. Yeah. And um and evolve into who you're supposed to be. Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:35

For a for example, I find um that creativity has always been easy for me. I've never had any any roadblocks with that. I can draw a picture or whatever. I'm not saying it's necessarily going to be a good picture, but I happily do it, you know. Um but I've always been uh I've always struggled with the discipline side of things. You know, I wasn't good at studying in school, that sort of thing, you know. Whereas I've met other people who are very good at discipline study, but they are intimidated by the process of creativity. And so if you can identify your strengths and weaknesses and then promote your strengths and and try to improve or work on your weaknesses, you improve your playing and you're you improve yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:15

Right. You know, it it it it's such an interesting topic of what is success. Yeah, yeah. You know. Um and I would be the first to admit that I'm I'm uh uh seduced like everybody else with you know, money or you know, b uh a nice house or a great lifestyle, being able to afford to do whatever you want. You can look at that and say, boy, that's really attractive, you know. Yeah. But I'd have to say that just as attractive to me is having a normal house, having a a really harmonious family life, eating good home cooked food, and and being happy, being relaxed is just as attractive to me as that Rolls-Royce over there or that whatever, you know. Yeah. Um and the older I get, the more I'm letting go of of trappings, of of things like vintage guitars or vintage amps or or things that cost a lot of money that only certain people could could have. All that stuff starts to mean a lot less. Yeah. And it's like, you know what? There's a lot probably a lot of people out there who would benefit from having that guitar that I've got just sit gathering dust in the corner. Why don't I give it to someone who who'll play it more than I will? Yeah. Stuff like that. And you start to to uh sense that there's a higher purpose in in your existence, not just to gather stuff around you. Yeah. What is it really doing? You know, yeah. And so I started doing stuff using this company called reverb.com, where we started having auctions online. And I parted with with guitars that were precious to me at the time, you know, guitars that Paul Reid Smith built and gave to me, acoustic guitars, rare, rare guitars with really rare, rare wood and all that sort of stuff. Guitars worth a lot of money. I decided to put them up for auction and I and uh I did all that. And all my old fender amps, I I auctioned them off, and we raised a lot of money, and we divided it between three charities: Doctors Without Borders, Music Cares, and uh the uh Earthquake Foundation from from Haiti. And all of a sudden, all these things that were just sitting there uh that I would go and look at and pick up and play had much more meaning and I didn't really care. And it was actually good to part with them because I felt like, well, what what I I I'm what am I hanging on to them for? Yeah. I've got a guitar that I tour with and I've got a one here that I I can record with or whatever. What else do I need? You know, and I started getting rid of stuff, you know. I even did things like I got rid of certain credit cards and all that sort of stuff, and now my my wallet is really thin. Right. You know what I mean? Because I'm only using two cards, uh-huh, and and that's all I need. I don't need anything else. You know, and I streamlined everything and it made me feel so much better. Yeah. Because all of a sudden there wasn't this clutter of stuff around me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:31

There's a great documentary on Netflix at the moment called The Minimalists. Yeah. Yeah. And uh these guys take it to the extreme. Yeah, I bet they do. But it's uh it's really actually quite inspiring. It is. Because it it just it highlights that point. What do you really need? You don't need all that stuff. Yeah, and it's not just that you don't need it, it's that it actually drags you down. You know, it actually makes your life more stressful to have all this stuff. Yeah. Um but I uh another answer I think to to definition of success is what you're putting out into the world. And are you making a positive contribution to the world in your short time here? And I have to say um that that's something that you taught me a lot in in the very early days when we first met, I think I was about twenty-two, and an angst, angst young man, angry young well you know you know, difficult life and la yada yada, all that stuff. But you were so like I I knew that you had had challenges in your life and I knew that it it you know it's not like you were just breezed through but you loved life. Yeah and you never let me off the hook for being down. You know what I mean? You were caring about it, but it's like, come on, let's go out, it's sunny, let's go for a walk. And I and that has stayed in my head ever since. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:42

Well it's so important, yeah. You know, and actually what we have is is today. And you know, you look out the window and it's sunny and it's beautiful, and we're in a great place. We are so lucky. Yeah, we're in a great place. We're in New Zealand, the air is beautiful, the food is great, this is the lifestyle here is so wonderful. You know, don't take it for granted. Absolutely. You know, and it's easy to to sit in front of your computer and take in all the crap that that that's going on and let it affect you. Yeah. And it's a terrible thing. And there is a lot of misery in in the world, and most of it is brought on by the people who are miserable. Right. You know, the people do it to themselves. Yeah, true. And um, you know, it's so easy to stop and look around you and go, Wow, I'm still here, I got my health, yeah, I've I got great friends, I've got a good life, I should be appreciating it, you know. There's an old saying, show me one unhappy, grateful man. Show me one. Yeah, you know. And so that that's it. I mean, I I could easily say, well, I'm not as rich as George Benson, or I I I don't have the kind of crowds that that you too have, or or whatever, radio don't play me, or I can't get in a movie, or blah, I got grey hair, or you know, what whatever. You could find a million things to complain about. Right, exactly. But who really cares? Yeah, you know. I'm very happy b b because at my age I've I've got a good job, and and I'm I'm fascinated as to what can happen next.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:20

You know, what what's around the corner? I don't know, and therein lies the fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:27

I don't know what could happen. Yeah. So but I better show up.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:31

And I better dress up, be there for us, and I better do my best. Right. Yeah. And there are the three principles that I live by. Dress up, show up, and do your best. That's the that's the mantra.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:43

Brilliant. That's really beautiful. And thank you so much for your time. It's been so insightful.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:47

Thanks for asking us to come and yak. And yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:51

Anytime you're in New Zealand, we'll do it again. Well, I feel like there's hours and hours and hours and hours more than we can talk about.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:56

Well, you know, it's a funny thing, but you know, uh the world is full of people who value their own opinion, and that's bullshit. Yeah. And I can tell you that. And it's getting worse. Right. You know, and like I I'm um I'm just like so stunned and amazed at how brutal people can be towards each other with words, you know. So, you know. Um and you just can't listen to that stuff. Don't take any notice of it. People are gonna criticize you and you for talking to me today. Oh, no. And then people criticize me because I'm a happy guy and I'm I'm successful, so there must be something else going on, and you know, and uh, you know, I remember uh I uh you know, b because I'm not Dwayne Orman and and uh and uh a heroin addict and all that sort of stuff, then I'm not a real musician, you know. And there are some people who think that way, yeah, and they will spit venom at you at such a level. Like I was playing in Macon, Georgia, which is where the um the um um the Ormonds are from. Yeah. And Duane's friend uh who has his i equipment still, came down to the show because he really respected me and showed me Duane's gold top Les Paul that he used to play and gave me a play on it and it was beautiful, you know. Yeah, but i it's not the holy grail to me, it's a gold top Les Paul from the early sixties. Yeah. And I I loved what what Duane played, he was brilliant. Yeah, but it's still just a gold top Les Paul. Yeah. And they're all, you know, they it's just a hunk of wood. Yeah. But you know, anyway, I was very proud to play it and everything. And somebody took a photo of me playing it, and we're and my manager put it up on Facebook, and people wrote in saying, you know, you're not worthy to hold that instrument. You know, you don't even deserve to shine his shoes. And they really cut cut me deep, you know. But of course, it didn't affect me because I don't give a shit about what you think. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? It's not my business what you think of me. If I start worrying about that, I'll crumble like the dog in the cartoon. Absolutely. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you can't you can't buy in to that stuff. That's right. People who sp people who criticize can't, and those who can do.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:23

And isn't it amazing how you could you can hear like fifty compliments and one negative comment would just cut you in half.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:29

Hey, so you just you know, yeah, you've got to get past all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I always tell young people, everybody has an opinion, and and maybe you don't need it. Yeah. Just l listen to yourself for a minute. Right. You know. Um if you're a singer songwriter and you want to you want to sing your music to people, you want to get your message out there, and you you're really honest about it, and you really feel you've got something, have a listen to someone who's done it really well and been really successful at it. Yeah. Listen to their stuff and say, Is my stuff anywhere near as good as that? Right. You know, don't don't listen to the guy next door who says, Oh, you should be playing like blah blah blah. You should be doing this and you'll never be as good as that or whatever. You know, don't listen to that stuff.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:16

Stay on track, you know. Believe in what what you're doing and strive for to to do it on a level that you know is is comparable to someone who's really gone before you and showed you the way. Absolutely. You know, you don't have to compare yourself to them uh uh literally, but use them as a as a as a gauge, as a bar. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And um, because there are some people who set the bar so high that uh you know, no one's gonna write a song like Elton John, no one's gonna write a song like Stevie Wonder. There are gonna be other people who write in a different way, and you and and that that's why art is so um uh i i i it you can't compare art, you know. I can't say that um uh hurt by Trent Reznor is not as good as the answers blowing in the wind. You know what I mean? Yes, they're both as good as one another, yeah, and you shouldn't compare them. Absolutely. Yeah. And so uh that's that's a good way to f for yourself to not get um too down about not being as good as Mozart or or or whatever. You know, you've got your thing to to do, and if you've really got something to say, then get out and say it. Absolutely. We want to hear it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:38

Having said that, who's the better guitarist, you or Danny? Well, me, of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:48

Beautiful, brilliant, excellent. Hey, thanks very much for your time, Tommy. It's doing incredible, been fantastic.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:55

So that was the episode I recorded back in 2017 with Tommy Emanuel. And just before we carry on, uh, if you're enjoying the show, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and tell a friend. It really uh uh we really appreciate it and it's gonna help us grow this thing. Um while you're at it, please subscribe. Right, so we'd like to finish with a summary. Um we'd like to talk about what we've learnt and uh if our minds have been changed on anything. So, Mike, you're the one who's newest to listening to this out of the two of us, so what have you learned?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:28

Um, I mean, the kind of when he was started talking about um, you know, his early childhood, I thought that was super interesting. The thought of you know, having to say that you're seven years old so you can go play on national TV and something that's pretty wild to me. Um where did that rule come from? Yeah, I have no idea. Who knows? I'm sure there's gotta be history to it. You know, you have to look it up. But um and you know, hearing that somebody of Tommy's caliber still has that shitty committee um in their head, you know, that was another part that that really resonated with me.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:59

Um that blew my mind when you said that. Yeah. In the moment. I remember just going, what?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:03

Yeah. Why?

SPEAKER_07 1:43:05

Don't you get to a point and you're just like, no, I'm awesome. I know I'm awesome. Have you heard you play? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:11

But yeah, I guess when you're the one doing it, you know, you always um you might get something 99% right and you're gonna you're gonna sit on that 1% and think about that. So yeah, I thought that was pretty cool to hear that somebody even um at his caliber thinks that. Uh I like the part where he was talking about his response to being humbled, you know, instead of saying, Oh, well, I'm gonna put my guitar down and not do any more, his his comment was, Well, geez, you better get to work. Um, and you know, that's just that's that's such a uh clear mindset to somebody like that who gets to that caliber. Yeah. You know, when you hit a challenge, it it's it doesn't crumble you, you just rise to that occasion. So yeah, that was really cool. Um, one of the other things I thought it was really cool how he really went on about how you know he's a songwriter first. I'm a songwriter who plays the guitar. Um I'm sure when most people think of Tommy Emmanuel, it's hard to sort of separate the guitarist from the songwriter, but it's cool that that's how he sees himself, and that's kind of how he's been able to get to this level on the guitar, on his instrument.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:06

I think that's actually in some ways more profound the more you think about it. Definitely. Because there are a lot of musicians out there who are very busy players, like guitarists who are, you know, playing all over the fretboard and drummers who play you know crazy stuff and whatever. They look like they're totally contradicting the playing for the song ethos. But I don't think they are. Because I think it's it's all about where where you're approaching it from. And I think what Tommy's saying is he's thinking about the song and the emotion and the dynamic and the story and melody and that sort of thing. Um, and that's where he's finding his sort of foundation and kicking off point. And then from there, you know, he will happily go and play a million notes in a in half a minute if he feels that's gonna serve the song.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:50

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I thought that was cool. Um, I also thought at the end where you know the idea of Tommy Emmanuel not being worthy of playing any guitar is just preposterous to me. The comment about the Dwayne Allman gold top LP. Yeah. Uh I very much believe that guitars are tools and and anyone can play any guitar. Um, you know, if you go buy a sports car, they don't say, Oh, what are your lap times at the local racetrack? You know, like it's yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:14

Um what kind of douche would have written in and say people got better things to do?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:19

Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:20

And say net, right, and say what you want to us. Yeah. Yeah, please chirp us. Yeah, go for it. Did you have anything else on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:27

Uh just his motto at the end, you know, that dress up, show up, and do your best. Yeah. I thought that was cool. Uh so often we um, you know, you have all the right ideas, the right intentions, but it you don't show up. You don't actually take that next step. Um and just actually getting in the room and and giving it a go. Um He's a pro. Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:45

Yeah. And seriously, if you do have any thoughts um on this episode, you know, send us a comment wherever we are. I don't know how to find us. Social media, Instagram, Facebook, Spotify, what have I not said? Apple. Apple maybe iHeart. iHeart. Oh yeah, we are on iHeart, yeah. Um and I don't know, otherwise put a piece of paper into a bottle and put it in the ocean and yeah, we'll get it eventually. Exactly. Shall we vamp on something? Sure. What do you feel like?

SPEAKER_00 1:46:16

You're in a major.nz or email info at aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz to find out more.