5. Why do people hate Lars Ulrich?

He helped build one of the greatest rock bands of all time, so why does everyone seem to hate him?  This week, drummer extraordinaire Andrew Rooney joins us to dig into the Lars Ulrich debate. Great drummer or overrated? Visionary leader or certified jerk? And does he actually deserve the hate he gets? 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

We are here with the irreverent, with the charming, with the insatiable, and the extremely good looking Andrew Rooney. Welcome.

SPEAKER_05 0:28

Wow, that's the best introduction I've had today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Just today.

SPEAKER_05 0:34

Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

What was yesterday's one? Not even close. Happy to be here, gentlemen. Yeah, yeah. And uh, of course, Mike, nice to see you again. Thanks for having me again.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

You haven't fired me yet.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Again, it's our show.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Oh, yeah, sorry, I keep forgetting.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

So someone someone kick us off. What are we here to talk about?

SPEAKER_05 0:54

Lars Ulrich? Ulrich. I think. Take your pick. I think Ulrich? Ulrich?

SPEAKER_02 1:00

I genuinely don't know, and I've got it written down.

SPEAKER_05 1:03

It's quite an important detail. What is this guy's name?

SPEAKER_02 1:07

I wanna I wanna see what Claude says. Is it Lars Ulrich or Lars Ulrich?

unknown 1:14

Haha. I'm not quite catching the distinction you're making then.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Well, I think we're gonna ignore that. I think people use both. Yeah, yeah. What does he use though? Isn't that the important?

SPEAKER_05 1:28

Yeah, well you'd think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

I think I heard him say Ulrich on a I watched a recent Smartless podcast that he did. Um, I forgot about that. It was a good one. Yeah. Yeah, it was really good. Yeah. It was kind of nice to see a bit of behind the scenes as well and not just have him, you know, either talking about Napster or his playing or some sort of controversy. Yeah, just kind of shooting the shit a little bit. It was good, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Yeah, yeah. Well, people people rag on him all the time, which is what we want to sort of unpack here, right? We've got this uh series that we're developing, uh Why Do People Hate dot dot dot? And our first feature is Lars Ole. Let's just leave it at O. Just Lars. Just Lars. Yeah, we'll just stay on Lars. One name.

SPEAKER_05 2:10

Travis.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Yeah. And Lars, everyone knows who Lars is. Have you ever met another Lars?

SPEAKER_05 2:14

Uh, there's a Lars on my boy's soccer side. Aside from that, no.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

But is he named after Lars from Metallica? Good good question. Well, that's it's like saying, Is there another MacGyver? And you go, I know a McGyver, but he was named after the TV show. Right.

SPEAKER_05 2:29

Well, that sort of is a good way to kick it off because we're talking about someone who is so famous, yeah, you don't need a second name. Right. And much like Travis, Travis Barker, Blink Money 2, or Ringo, all got in common they're very wealthy drummers. Is it a coincidence they're also the most mocked and possibly even hated?

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Hmm. So you've already seen a through line, I didn't pick that up. Well, potentially.

SPEAKER_05 3:00

So I'm sure we'll I'm sure we'll get there. Is this coming from a drummer point of view? Is it Well, there has to be an element of jealousy, at least a little bit tied into this discussion today. Yeah. Um, do you want me to set out a little bit of context?

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah, go for it. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_05 3:18

So here I am just taking over the podcast. Look at me.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

The less work we have to do, the better.

SPEAKER_05 3:24

So if you have been living under a rock, or this is possibly not part of civilian culture, Lars is mocked online a lot in within drum groups, perhaps, music groups, as an extension. I don't know if this crosses over to the civilian life.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

I'm not sure if it does either. It's it's not like I kind of knew of a little bit of the controversy around him, but it wasn't until my started prepping for this episode that I kind of really dug into the details and knew it a bit more.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

I I also don't know when it started, because I don't remember hearing about it, you know, back in the um black album days.

SPEAKER_05 4:00

Well, I think part of that was he was still a very legitimate player. Right. So the whole picture was pretty solid. And it was possibly before Napster happened as well. Yeah. So I think that was a key moment because Napster, that was 2000. And when did the internet become ubiquitous? 99. Yeah. So I I think something has happened here where he was the original villain. Right. The rich guy taking free music away from the fans. The fan to do how do it. You didn't want to. Yeah. But also, like, let's just set out Metallica is a top-tier legacy band. No one's gonna deny that. Yep. 40 plus years in the game, still going.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

And I I was surprised the other night to disk to discover that they were killing it in the 90s. Oh, because because my sort of base level understanding is that when Grunge happened, it just knocked most of those bands out. And I I thought Metallica had been knocked right down several pegs and then kind of climbed back up again. Good point. Yeah, but I think they were headlining and selling massive numbers of tickets the whole way through. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 5:14

Yeah. I mean, who could we compare the longevity longevity? Longevity, I hate that word. Who could we compare that to? Is it Rolling Stones sort of?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Rush.

SPEAKER_05 5:26

Oh no, that's it. It only took how long?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Three three minutes. B I I this this may need to be another episode, but I actually think the longest running band that never changed their lineup, which deserves more credit than they get, is U2. Mmm.

SPEAKER_05 5:40

Were they 70s?

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Late 70s. 50 years. They must, I think maybe 78, so almost 50 years.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

Metallica 81.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Yeah, unfortunately, lineup changed because Cliff died. Right. But not Jason left. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But not that Cliff was their fault, but you know.

SPEAKER_05 5:56

So I thought I thought it is at least important to establish a baseline level of these guys have been in the game. They've been in the bus. Yeah. They've done the work. Um and also I want a little bit of a disclaimer that I'm not even a huge Metallica fan or a Lars fan. As we were talking about, as we were just Well, none of us really are, which makes us um I think we're the right people to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

I mean, I've really liked them. I've always really liked them, but I've never bought a record or you know.

SPEAKER_05 6:25

I had the black album and and Justice for All. So a casual casual fan, the hits, great. Yeah. I still get regularly even younger students asking to learn into Sandman. Yep. Do you did you ever buy a record or anything?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

I sure did. Yeah. Um, so I had the black album, which I think might have been my father's. I don't think I bought that one.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Um kind of father buys the black album.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Cool father. But I bought I bought the Saint Anger album when it came out. And I didn't know about internet forums. I didn't know about fan magazines.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

That was just all of our listeners leaving.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

And he took it back. He got a rebound. No, I did not. I still enjoy the songs in that album. I might be one of the few people who's willing to admit that, but I didn't know any different. I thought it was cool. You know, when I bought it, I just I played the crap out of it. And um the listening to it back now, I understand the controversy. I hear all the the pingy, the mixing. It sounds like he's using an aluminum baseball bat on like a beer keg or something for the snare. I'm sorry, aluminium. Yeah. Um but it's uh yeah, it's at the time when I was listening to it, I loved it. You know, I didn't know any didn't know any different, didn't know any better, and I still have uh a few of those songs on my workout playlist. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:45

But if we're talking about one of the biggest bands of all time, we all know that whole thing about you can't have a great band without a great drummer.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:54

You know, and if your drummer sucks, the band's toast, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Uh let's just stay on that for a second. That's a really interesting thought exercise, isn't it? Who can you think of a great band who didn't have a solid as rhythm section?

SPEAKER_05 8:08

People will say instantly, Ringo, Ringo sucks. Well that's just Yeah, but that's because people are stupid. But this I feel this is the crux of this whole thing. Uh-huh. I think this is what it's all leaning to. Travis Barker is the same. I I I feel like Dave Grohl possibly in there as well. But they're all wealthy, hugely successful. Is it just oversaturation? Is it just we heard it too much? Heard which part? All of them. Well, their parts, right? Because was success did that sort of kill it? Because it's just like I've heard it too many times. Like I don't know, gangnam style.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

You know, you just So you mean they become so successful that they become targets, basically?

SPEAKER_05 8:52

Yeah, I think we get sick of it.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

And there's gotta be like a bit of a saturation level, right? Where you like it, you like it, you like it. Okay, I've heard it enough, let's let's hear something new.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Well, we need to do an episode similar to this um about Phil Collins, because he's totally I think Phil Collins is a complete genius and uh and and amazing on so many levels, but he was so successful, he was just played so much that uh that it then sort of backfired on him on him almost, you know. Yeah, which is actually what he says about it. He said they they played me too much and people got sick of me. Right. Is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_05 9:25

I I think so. I think there's a bit of that, but I I also think and I don't know much about the whole Napster deal. I didn't even have a computer at the time. I was a late adopter of anything slightly technology. Um but I think that had to have labelled him at least a little bit as a villain. Absolutely. A rich guy villain who wants even more money. Yeah. Like so I think something happened there where after that he's if he does anything, it's gonna be a target.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

I I I like to try and build the opposition's argument you know on on a controversial subject or something I disagree with, and I can't find the argument um that would explain why he would be the villain in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

On the Napster thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

On the Napster thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Some of the stuff that I read about it, it at the time, once again, I wasn't really keyed in on this at the time, but from what I read, it sounded like people however it was portrayed, it almost sounded like he was going after the fans, saying, like, don't download this stuff. When I mean, really, you you know, you should be going after Napster itself. You go after the parent company, not the end user.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

That makes sense. Because I did see footage of him holding a list up where it had a list of it.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

He had the usernames and stuff, so like I feel like that might have been sort of the tipping point, you know, why are you coming after us? We're just we're just trying to support you and listen to your music, but at the end of the day, you're not supporting because you are illegally downloading. That's right. Um, and I mean I destroyed my parents' computers with LimeWire viruses back in the day, you know. That was a bit of a rite of passage for people in music in the late 90s, early 2000s. Um But yeah, that that would definitely piss a lot of people off. I guess if you're if you're going after you know a band like Metallica status, going after what the fans perceive as them. Um I mean at the end of the day, he turned out to be right, you know. He was totally right. Streaming absolutely killed revenue for bands.

SPEAKER_05 11:26

He was the face of that, apparently. That he was it was almost Lars takes on the fans, the people, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

So like that list thing I think is a good answer to what I was asking. But everything else, it's still I mean, he was obviously right. What are they fucking talking about?

SPEAKER_05 11:43

There was some type of claim made that individually each person would owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in terms of lost money and royalties. Right. So like individually, almost like I could chase you. Do you remember those old um you wouldn't download a you know do you remember those ads? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The download on the DVD download a car if I could. Hell yeah. I mean download a house and all that. Fuck, that'd be awesome. So it was a thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

But there's one thing there's there there's the you would because you know there's reasons why you would just go, screw it, I'm gonna do it. But then there's the defending it thing. The defending it thing is the bit that I didn't get. And I remember that at the time, um, being in the odd debate with someone, and they were trying to defend it. And I remember saying, it's like you walk past um the back door of a warehouse or some company, and you you realize the door's open and no one's around, and there's all the stock on the shelf, and you go, I guess it's fine for me just to take the stock then, because I can just walk in and take it and there's no obvious consequence. And I'm like, that's just clearly ethically wrong. It doesn't mean you might do it. Some people would do it, but then the next thing is to then defend it.

SPEAKER_05 12:52

I think possibly another analogy could be something like Apple or Tesla, who are two sort of like trendy companies, you know, that are that are cool, they're quite cool companies. Well, Tesla was a cool company, yeah. So so exactly, so then it becomes cool to not like it. Yeah. And if you start digging in, you will find stuff. You'll find stuff about Apple that is not so good. And likewise Tesla, and I think that that happens here where that he's been established as the punching bag for the industry for drumming. So now we we're gonna find stuff. But I cannot believe it's gone on this long. Right. It's quite amazing. I think the other thing is his plane did deteriorate, especially live. Right. So you there's a lot of people again sharing footage. Oh, look at Lars and sort of laughing, and then people just piling in of him having a gig fail, which we've all had. Totally. So if you again, if you look for it, you will find it. Yeah. And then 99.5% people of people at at that concert would say he was amazing. Right. And wouldn't have even noticed that he dropped a stick or he fluffed a fill or you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

And do you think that because m moments after the Napster thing, that's when they did some kind of monster. Do you think that was do you think that redeemed him a little bit or made things worse?

SPEAKER_05 14:15

The Docker?

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:17

Um well, again, I'm not a huge Lars fanboy. Yeah. I I don't think he came across particularly likable.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Have you seen it recently?

SPEAKER_05 14:27

Not recently, no.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Right. I I watched it at the time and thought quite low about the whole thing. Thought it was pretty bad. Oh, the int just the whole thing. I just I remember just came coming away going they seemed like whiny little bitches, you know. But rock starish? Yeah, or just not even not even bad at like uh cool enough to be rock stars. More like they turned into almost more childish, yeah. Some of the stuff. Yeah, but then I watched it. Yeah, Hatfield did, yeah. But then I watched it a couple nights ago because of of course I knew we were doing this, and my view on it totally changed. Oh wow, same. Totally changed. And wow I thought Lars on the most part came across really well. Um, it was obvious I mean James didn't at times, but he was obviously having a meltdown and he off and he went off and got help.

SPEAKER_04 15:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Um and yeah, I just it's funny how 25 years between watching it re- re-watching it back, it seemed to me like he's almost, you know, the the leader, the CEO of this ship. Yeah. And half of the employees it's what it's what it sure seemed like, right? You know, he's he's the one trying to get everybody into the studio, trying to actually have this recording time. And then James uh obviously has to go to rehab. He just doesn't show up one day, doesn't go, doesn't come back for 11 months. Right. And then when he did come back, um, you know, as part of his his uh stipulation um leaving rehab, he could only work, I think like four or five hours a day. So he was working from like 12 to 4 or 11 to 4 or something. Yeah. And then he got mad when other people wanted to keep mixing, keep working on the songs afterwards. So it's like, come on, man. Like, you know, I get it, you're you're you're the face and the voice of Metallica. Yeah but what other industry, what other job can you not show up to for 11 months and then finally show up and say, hey, by the way, guys, can we all just work three to four hours today? You know, like doctor's orders?

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Like, I was quite interested though in in that because I thought I I totally see how he was being controlling it and unreasonable when he was trying to tell everybody you're not even allowed to listen to what we've been working on once I've gone. Um, but when he made his argument, I didn't he didn't convince me, but when he made his argument, you guys are gonna start talking about it, make decisions, have opinions and whatever, you're gonna move the project along, and I won't be involved in it. I thought I can understand how he'd feel. Yeah, I agree. I I wouldn't again defend what he was saying, but I can understand he is right, but but probably in that moment he just had to accept that he had to take his hands off the wheel on this one, you know.

SPEAKER_05 16:45

The show must go on. Yeah. I should have watched it. I should have watched that, really. That is a pretty good insight.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

It is interesting watching it back, yeah, all these years later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

I did like the moment where um Lars was complaining about the therapy and the rules and the you know, the counselor that was there and all that kind of stuff. And he's like, I thought we were a rock and roll band. You know, what happened to being a rock and roll band? Oh, like you wanted him to keep drinking. Well, he's just kind of like, what are we doing? We're you know, we're we're allowed to work from 12 to 4, and we've got a counselor here, and we're cheering our feelings, and you know, and then just like weren't we like one of the most dangerous rock and roll bands in the world? And I was watching that going, he's got a point.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yeah, the whole thing with the therapist was interesting. Yeah. Because I mean, clearly they needed help at that time. Like very clearly, they were in in a pretty rough stage, um, pretty deep into some of their addictions. So, you know, you understand why he would be there and why he'd be working with the band. It's a very popular thing in a lot of larger corporate culture, right? The you know, they bring in these sort of performance coaches um to try and help people get through that whatever whatever they're working on. But then when they were eventually like, okay, you know, we don't need you anymore, and he started manipulating them to try and get them to stay on a bit longer, I was like, okay, kick that guy out. Show me the money. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

And I think it's it's always interesting to me how behind the the perception of the act is is you know, real people in real lives um who are worried about things like their diet and staying fit and you know their family and they're you know, they're real people. And I maybe at this point we actually have to give them a huge amount of credit for being extremely progressive. For showing their their flaws and vulnerabilities. Um 25 years ago, putting yourself in a documentary where the whole thing's falling apart and and there's a council and all the rest of it, uh that's pretty bold of them. That could actually be more rock and roll, and it definitely wasn't in vogue at the time.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Like you know, nowadays it is much more uh open and accepting of speaking about those sort of things, but it wasn't at the time.

SPEAKER_05 18:43

Yeah, it's a good point. Yeah. I remember at the time thinking that it was bonkers, right? Like it's bizarre. Same. Yeah. I thought that really done themselves a disservice. Which also that could lead into a whole another episode of can you be a a true rich rock star? You know, does that really are you like a badass living life on the edge, multi-hundred millionaire? Like does that really good at yeah, we should do that.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Yeah, we should do that.

SPEAKER_05 19:11

I think I think my favorite albums are always when things are just so authentic. Yeah, for lack of a better word, where it's just like these guys are on the edge, which we're probably gonna get to on a different conversation, yeah. But um, where it's just like this could fall apart at any minute, it sounds dangerous. I I feel like this is dangerous. Yeah. Whereas you don't really feel like that when something's very produced and very um, you know, there's a business intent behind it. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Now I don't know where where you're going exactly. I I want to make sure that we don't forget to talk about how important he was as a drummer when he started, when the band started. You know, they they really innovated a lot of stuff, you know. And I think when a band has been first to the punch and innovated things like that, you you you pr they almost become um they have immunity in a way, in many ways, right? I totally agree.

SPEAKER_05 20:00

I think e you have to respect it. Yeah. You know, they kind of wrote the book Thrash, yeah, early thrash metal, along with um some bands that I'm not as familiar with. I guess um Slayer and Anthrax, those type of groups. Yeah. Um you know, that that is the book. Yeah. That's the tin pan alley of of that genre. You can still write new songs, but they're not gonna be in the book.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:31

So I think yeah, there is a an amount of respect. And whether we get into a whole Dunning Kruger debate of thinking you're better than him, or you could be you could do that. I could I could be in Metallica. Right. Which ignores the elephant in the room, is they're not going to ask you to be in Metallica.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah. Right? But there's also the time there's the time you come from, and and I think about the difference between being an emerging drummer in the late 70s, early 80s versus being an emerging drummer now, where now your platforms are or your your opportunities to be out there, uh, YouTube and TikTok and you know, the odd kind of rubbish gig around town or whatever. Um, but it's these days, you know, kids have grown up these days with all of this access to theory information and clips around technique and this entire conversation now exists on the internet. None of that was available back then. Um and then there was the survival aspect of being on the road, like on the Tommy Emmanuel um re-release, he was talking about um needing to play hard to when he was you know starting out and he was playing his guitar in a in a bar in Sydney or whatever, um, and he had to dig deep and and play hard to win the room over. You know, there's a totally different type of environment to learn to play in. And Lars comes from that era of rock bands where they they had to play in in a totally different frame of mind to compete on this very aggressive. Very heavy scene. That's totally different to doing like clever little tricks on your hi-hat on YouTube.

SPEAKER_05 22:05

Absolutely. Yeah. I think you could almost make like an art analogy, like you could look at a piece of art and say, Well, I could do those brush strokes. There's nothing particularly difficult about technically what's happened in the painting.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:18

Ah, but that's the story behind it. Right. You know, and that, oh, that represents inequality, and this colour represents that. It's like, yeah. Oh, okay, that changes the whole conversation.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Not only the not only that, but also the influences of the era. So, you know, we now have all this other music in our heads that have come that come out in the last 45 years. Which is all quantized. That's right, a lot of it, yeah. But what you know, he was coming up with different influences. So um it's it's it's unfair in many ways to compare him to anyone of of late, um, because it's a totally different beginning point. I mean, as a drummer, I I I know you're saying you're not a giant Lars guy, but as you've been listening to some of it, what stands out to you about his technique or his creativity, or is there anything about his playing on the positive that really stands out to you?

SPEAKER_05 23:05

I think with guys like this, or Steven Adler, or Dave Grohl, uh, th there'll be three heavy, you know, hard rock drummers where that is what they do. They're not an everyman, they're not a Swiss Army knife, Vinny Calyuta. Yeah. They're not gonna play you a beautiful jazz waltz and then subtly go to brushes and they are rock drummers. And they hit really hard every night, and they just have their lane. They're a specialist. Right. Which that is also not very fashionable, is it? You know, you've you've gotta learn everything. You've got to learn Afro-Cub and you've gotta learn jazz, and oh jazz is the hardest, I gotta learn jazz, and then you gotta do this, oh don't need to do rock, rock's easy. So then we do funk, and then we do this, and we've gotta do reggae. These guys are rock drummers. Right. And they have this bag of tracks, and you can hear when they're getting pushed to the edge of their limit, which I personally love. I love that sound.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 24:07

You know? It's like um it's like a watching an independent film, and you can see that they're getting pushed to the edge of the budget. Right. And they're pushing against this budget and the you know, all the constraints that are that are available to them. But I think that's what's exciting about it.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:24

They're on the edge.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:25

He's he's not Vinny.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Right. So he's trying to hold on. I did this gig in Christchurch a few years ago, and it was a sort of a one-day festival type gig. Um, and one of the headliner bands was some kind of amalgamation of different uh musicians from legendary Kiwi bands. Right. Um and they brought this guy up, I can't remember his name, but I think he might have been like the original drummer from DD Smash or something like that. Okay. Um, and they said, We've got a special guest, you know, to do a couple of songs, we've got such and such, and this guy appeared. I had already done my bit, so we're standing on the wings watching. And this guy came up, he was super old. Um, he could he look like he could barely walk, he was quite overweight, not judging, just saying. Um he kind of hobbled up there, and I thought, oh my god, should we call the ambulance now? You know, like what's gonna happen? And he gets up there on the kit, and and I'm starting to sort of look around, like, is this gonna be alright? And he just pauses for a second, clicks the band in, and just floors me, just the most solid, the most amount of intent, the attitude, just the conviction in his playing. And I was standing there with a couple of my musician friends, and we just looked at each other wide-eyed, just like, what the hell? This isn't this pretty, you know, prissy, flashy little garbage that a lot of modern players play like so many players these days just play like they couldn't care less. And this guy just wiped the floor, you know, it's incredible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:48

I think as well, pre-click, pre-quantizing, pre- you know, auto-tune, all that stuff that we have today. I think the players back then had a a lot more of a signature. I can tell it's large.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:04

Even before Bob Rock came in and started producing it, you know, giving them a lot of production. Right. He does like a sneer and crash thing, and that is just a trademark. You know, you normally had a big kick drum with a crash, he does a lot of snare and crash, and people again mock that. Yeah. Um but I just feel like he's got he's got a signature. It's him. Right. And no it's him straight away, which you lose if you if you quantize that, it's gone. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Totally gone. The um some kind of some kind of Monster Doc Doco had a moment where he was trying to come up with something for a riff. I don't know if you remember that, but um James is playing a relatively straight riff, and the obvious thing would be to put the kick on the one and whatever. And Lars is trying to come up with some back-to-front upside-down groove. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

I I I it was almost like he was- He was definitely trying to do something a bit more interesting.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

It was almost like he was going for a Copeland thing. Yeah. Yeah. And James says something funny, like, I'm used to the drummer like, you know, playing the beats or something like that. And Lars is getting really angry because he's trying to come up and he's kind of trying, I don't want to just play the predictable thing or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 27:16

Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

And I'm thinking about even um an Enter Sandman where he's got that floor on the floor, and then they're hitting that like that. Just these little surprises that we're not so used to. Um, I watched that and I thought, because I know people have criticized him for that. Um, and I thought, but if you don't look for the next idea, you just play what everyone else is playing. You know, you just repeat. And it's it's all very well to judge it after the fact, but part of being creative is taking chances.

SPEAKER_05 27:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

You take those chances, and the only difference was that in that case, they filmed it. Yeah, we've all done that without cameras. What about this idea? No, that sucks.

SPEAKER_05 27:57

Put that in the bed. Because Enter Sam Man is legit probably one of my most requested songs for people to learn still, which speaks to legacy, but learning that song is really difficult, especially if you wanted to learn it note for note, which a lot of students do like learning things note for note. The idea of improvising is is weird to them, you know. And so you do want to get a little bit of a style and try and read your way through the chart and stuff, and it's just it constantly changes. It is almost I mean, dare I say a jazz rock part, right? It constantly evolves, and all those little offbeat crashes and dun dun dun dun gum b. And then there's two of them, then there's four of them, and then it's just but that's exciting. Yeah. If we copy paste that, and they all go dum dum dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun It's like Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

We've got the idea. Another really interesting way to make that point is for anybody who's got um, you know, recording software and the ability to program MIDI and things like that, just get something like that and program it and put it right on the grid. Good point. And it is just dead. Yeah. It's lifeless. Um and when people do simulate these things, they use a variety of tricks to actually try and breathe life back into these things, you know, like humanizers and and they you have to go and kind of mess it up to make it sound in any way convincing. Yeah. But if you imagine a bit of swinging groove, yeah, yeah, you have to fluctuate the dynamics on the plays and you have to move the what's that one called that they use where it kind of moves everything slightly out of time. Oh, I d I I forget what I know. Yeah. But it's I thought that was really funny when it came out. It's like now perfect.

SPEAKER_05 29:44

Now let's undo it all. But that is interesting, right? When you've got unconventional, almost untrained style playing, that's interesting for me. Yeah. I I enjoy that. Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna put it on and listen to it all the time, but I I certainly appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

I mean untrained isn't like not not like conventional technique and yeah, I mean I maybe he did get lessons and stuff, I I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_05 30:08

I didn't go that far into his backstory, but um he sounds and he's he strikes me as someone who would who is he's gonna do it his way.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

I think I saw in a doc he actually got uh lessons recently. Um it might have been a slightly older interview thing, so it might have been like five, ten years ago. But I feel like he didn't get lessons, but a lot of those guys didn't. And I think there's a big difference between uh original artists and session musicians. Like session musicians are a different you know, different ball game because they have to kind of be able to do everything. That's when you've got Vinny Carla Udis, because he, you know, Vinny Vinny played with Herbie Hancock and he also played with Megadeth, you know, like that's a session musician. Uh but that's different to the musicians who break ground. Like, you know, there are a lot of very, very famous, celebrated musicians who I think are technically very flawed, yeah. Um but super important and comes in. Yeah, they innovated some way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I probably couldn't have gotten there without um if they were too organized.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Well, I'm pretty sure Lars did have some formal education. I know uh he spoke about it when he was um in school in Denmark, like just as part of the public school, like he kind of started in the music courses and stuff like that. Yeah. Um interesting. Did like did you know that he actually came to America to play tennis? Yeah, I was just thinking, yeah, just remembering that.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Yeah, so that's quite good, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, apparent well, uh in the the story that I heard him say, you know, apparently he was like top ten in in um in Denmark, and then he moved to the States and he didn't even make his high school team when he moved to America. Is that right? But but that discipline approach um I feel like definitely plays a big part throughout his career. Yeah. You know, whatever discipline he had to kind of to get started with with Metallica and to tr and really develop that sound, you know, there was so much that he brought to the table that wasn't just part of the technical drumming. Right. Yeah you know, so I feel like that's one part that quite often he doesn't get enough credit for. Yeah. Um sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

Oh no, I was gonna I was gonna say I think that also sort of leads into what is the goal of the band? Is the is the goal here for us all to play our instruments flawlessly? Right. And safe. Or are we a rock band that's trying to sell albums and sell out, you know, a live concert? There's gotta there has to be something pulling you to the venue. Yeah. You know, hopefully that you wouldn't want to miss.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

This is where rock and roll actually has a lot in common with jazz. Yeah. Because you play it too safe in jazz, it becomes dinner music. Yeah. But the great jazz artists are pushing and exploring and trying and failing a lot of the time, you know.

SPEAKER_05 32:35

So I mean, by most metrics, you would have to say he is an absolute outlier on the success end with a huge legacy, decades in the game, very wealthy, um, seemingly happy. Um, and so these are all buckets of success.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

But my question for you, speaking of lessons, is have you ever considered getting guitar lessons?

SPEAKER_05 33:01

Oh I was actually thinking about it just before I arrived.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Were you? Well, whether you've picked up a guitar or you've been playing for years, did you like that? I was trying to keep it straight, um whether you've picked up a guitar or you've been playing for years and you've hit a wall. I can't even read this, it's too dark in here. Uh Auckland guitar lessons are for you. Lessons are one-on-one, and every session is built around your goals, your tastes, and the songs you actually want to play. All the fundamentals of technique and theory are covered in an accessible way and applied within the songs you within the songs you're learning. So you can progress faster and actually enjoy the ride. I can't read this. I was thinking the other day about finally getting a Kindle because I sit down at night to read a book and I'm literally reading the book like that. I've forgotten the story, I'm just trying to see what the word is. If you've always wanted to play, now's the time. If you've plateaued, Auckland Guitar Lessons will unlock your playing, rebuild your confidence, and get you moving again. Head to Aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz or email info at aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz to find out more, and I will expect your email on Monday, Andrew River. Just like that. And if you had if you had not laughed, no man, I guess you're a file now.

SPEAKER_05 34:14

I'm going full creativity, no lessons.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

I'm just gonna get a guitar and just so let's talk about um sane anger. I read about the controversy with the snare sound, and I couldn't remember it, so I went and listened to it and was genuinely shocked at how terrible it was. And again, to my point of trying new things, you've got to try new things, and sometimes you get it wrong. And I remember was it was it you or someone else I said about that it could be in a parallel universe that we talk about that being the game changer, you know, like that was the moment the dr the sound of the snare drum changed forever. That was he was a total genius to be ahead and whatever. Because I remember when um I remember some pretty big changes in the sounds of snare drums, you know, like the early 90s Piccolo sound and all of that. So he he might have nailed it, but he didn't.

SPEAKER_05 35:01

But even there, that is actually an iconic snare sound now. Is it everybody knows that and like you mentioned before the memes? I still kind of love it. I'm not gonna lie. The baseball bats on the uh on the rubbish tin. Yeah, like that he he kind of even won there in a funny way because it it's probably the most talked-about snare sound ever. It still lives on, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 35:26

You can't argue with that. I just want to um explore that a bit further, but Mike, why do you like it?

SPEAKER_01 35:31

I I couldn't spotlight listening back to it now, I totally understand all the criticism. Yeah. Um I don't know. I didn't know any better, you know? I just thought, hey, this is a bit funky, it's a bit of a different sound. It was definitely a different sound than earlier Metallica albums that I'd listened to, but yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. There are a couple examples. I uh you know, you could play um, I think Dirty Window or Sane Anger, those are probably the two examples from that album that I think are the worst. Those are the ones where it really stands out. And then I feel like Some Kind of Monster and Sweet Amber are two examples where it actually kind of fits in the song a little bit better. So I feel like for whatever reason they had that same mixing over the whole album. And if they had just kind of sprinkled it in here or there, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad. Right. Um Well, we'll cue a song. Which one do you want me to cue up? Um throw on Dirty Window. Um that'll be a good one to see just how outrageous this sounds.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

And and and just before I do, am I right in saying that that boingy kind of snare sound? I feel like I heard that a lot in the early 90s with a lot of sort of funk rock bands and stuff. Am I right? Possi uh well, maybe not quite like this, but I mean that was intense.

SPEAKER_05 36:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Extreme.

SPEAKER_05 36:41

Shoot, do we are your headphones right? They're not expensive, they're not just gonna like get destroyed by the snare tone or anything. Replace my entire studio.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

You can already hear it coming through out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

And he was just ride there. Let's put it already windows.

SPEAKER_05 38:08

He knows what he's doing. Yeah, and he does the pick up, he's done in the stuff.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Yeah. He must have been in the same frame of mind of trying new things. What did you want to hear next?

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Uh drawn sweet amber or some kind of uh sweet amber, I think was a good one. So for sweet amber, I think it's a bit yeah, it starts just on a guitar riff. Um, and when the drums come in, it is a bit it feels like it's a bit less in the mix. It's not so in your face. I don't know how they got that that reverb on the snare though. Like it's a good thing. I don't think I've heard this one. I think this might be my favorite song from me, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

There we go.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Okay, it's made me like I know it's in the movie in the documentary I had point. So I think we're in the heavy uh either thing fighting. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:54

I'm not down, I'm in that. Everything else does it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yeah, it's pretty healthy. It's still it's still yeah, it's still very I don't know what it is, like how did they even get that sound?

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Did you have an uh another one like a better era of production you wanted to reference?

SPEAKER_05 40:19

Um I was gonna go back. But oh by the way, if you do want a palette cleanser, uh snare tone, one headlight, the warflowers, oh yeah, Matt Chamberlain on drums. I don't know how easy it is for you to drop drop in here, maybe it's impossible. Just totally off topic, but um if you're listening, just pause the podcast for uh 10 seconds and put on that song, and that's what a snare and that's what it should sound like.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Okay. Yeah, I I actually I because once I listened to Saint Anger, I went and I thought I better look go and go and check out the snares on other Metallica albums. And it was interesting because the snare on End of Sandman I don't like as a snare sound, but it obviously works brilliantly for the context. Right. Right. Um But uh the Master of Puppets snare I thought sounded amazing.

SPEAKER_05 41:15

Okay. Well, Master of Puppets was on my list. Okay, um and I was also sort of gonna um for a little bit of context, when you're hearing these earlier Metallica songs and albums, just think stuff like Rick Astley was on the radio, you know, um Faith, for sure George Michael Faith, Whitney Houston, you know, think of that. Yeah. And then this. That's killer, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:45

That is very guitar tone sounds almost the same.

SPEAKER_05 41:50

It's not very different. No, no. I mean, the guitar is the guitar is a drummer, you know? Yeah, and Metallica is solid.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah, I don't know how you do those downbeats that fast. For that long, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

That's what you see.

SPEAKER_05 42:12

Do you like that sniff?

SPEAKER_02 42:13

I like that smith.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

I love everything about this. Yeah. Sounds amazing to me. Yeah. It started with their low lights, now we're hearing some of the highlights.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Yeah. I mean, I don't remember how many albums in this, but it's an early one, right?

SPEAKER_05 42:28

So isn't there just a level of authenticity? Yeah. I don't know how to how I can validate that. Yeah, it's all analog, and you can definitely feel the intensity. You can feel somehow well as well as well when you come younger. But the fans don't junker. Yeah, yeah. The energy of it.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:52

The earnestness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like that.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Yeah, like they you feel like they're getting ready for a fight or something. Right. Yeah, you can you can definitely feel the aggression in that.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Yeah. Which in some ways is not fair because, you know, everyone gets older. What are they supposed to do 100%, you know? But you can see why this blew up.

SPEAKER_05 43:14

Yeah. Another thing, thinking of what else was around, like Whitney Houston or um George Michael or whatever, this song I believe is about eight minutes long. Right. With a lot of arrangement, with a lot of different parts, um, really interlocking sort of band stuff. Which, you know, he he's a band drummer, right? I said before that he's he's he's a rock guy.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:40

He's also a band compositional drummer, like a key um Keith Moon. Yeah. You know? Exactly. Like he's thinking compositionally. He's not thinking I've got to record the exact right part here, and I've got to get it perfect, and you know, I've got to, you know, perfectly subdivide the beat, and my fill needs to, you know, there's none of that. Even though coming into the equation.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

One of my comments I've got written down here is the best drummer for Metallica, E.G. Keith Moon. Keith Moon for the Who. I mean, Keith Moon is an interesting example because he was such a bonkers drummer.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

And and I think he would be more or less totally unemployable in any other situation. He couldn't have that might be slightly unfair. He probably could have gotten it together if he needed to, if he was more sober as well. But um I'm not sure. But he was obviously the guy for the Who.

SPEAKER_05 44:32

Yeah, totally. I mean Ringo, possibly, you know, more hireable and versatile, but also a compositional. He's almost got the producer brain. Yeah. You know, he's over. You saw it in the documentary, the Beatles Docco. He's just sitting back, yeah. Letting everyone fight and argue, and he's just like, okay. And then he just sits down and plays the perfect drum part, and you just think, What? Oh, he was paying attention. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yeah. I think, but I think that is probably a point to stick on a little bit more with Lars and you know, sort of the wider skill set. I feel like that's one thing that's not really touched on enough. You know, I understand where people kind of rag on his technical abilities when it is in a genre that is just known for incredible technical prowess, especially in the drumming field. Um, but you know, uh, I don't think Metallica ever gets to the level of success they had without Lars's business brain. You know, like like he had all of those other pieces, you know. You always see him in the interviews because he was well spoken, he was well educated, um, he had all sorts of other passions and interests outside of just metal music. Yep. I don't know if the rest of the guys in the bands had that. I didn't really come across in any of the stuff that I sort of saw. For sure. So, you know, he he was really leading more of the trajectory of the band and really I think doesn't always get enough credit for the actual business success of it. He'd been the driving force. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

And that's a tough job. Oh, that's a tough industry, it's a tough world anyway. Yeah, but it's a tough industry, and to be able to keep that strength up long term. Um, because I was also thinking about whether we're talking about areas of his career where he was really on or when he was struggling, you're talking about you know, a long career. You know, I mean people are saying that at the moment he's never been fitter and he's playing brilliantly now. Um he's really he's been shredding uh shedding a lot and he's um he's really taken care of himself and I think he's um in a really good headspace, according to a documentary I watched, um and an interview I mean. And so, you know, if we're talking about, you know, at this particular point he was having a tough time and he was feeling a bit out of shape and going through some stuff, okay. We all do that. That's like and he powded through it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

Don't we try and teach resilience to kids? Right, you know, like hey, you know, you you might have failed in the sports game. Doesn't matter, you gotta pick yourself up and keep going.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:54

Doesn't that apply here? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

No, it's almost like the message is he should have just stayed home and kept his mouth shut. And we get a better drummer. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 47:01

If that happened, they wouldn't be going.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

That's it. It wouldn't be a Metallica. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 47:05

And like how like at what where do we draw the line? So we can get a better vocalist than James. I'm sure we all agree.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

You know, some some metric.

SPEAKER_05 47:14

There is there are technically better singers than James. Yeah. There are technically better guitarists than Kirk Hammett, there are technically better bassists who will slap your face off and do all kinds of crazy stuff than Robert Trujillo, whoever the bass bassist was back in the day. Um, and same on drums, you know, we could put Josh Freeze there, and all, you know, we could we can perfect every element of the band, yeah, and then it's not Metallica.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:41

So we're back at square one. We need to build another Metallica.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

Right.

SPEAKER_05 47:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:45

So I mean, how many parts of the Jenga puzzle do we take out before it falls apart? You know?

SPEAKER_02 47:51

And that's what other bands have had to face. I mean, you know, the Who Lost Keith Moon and they kept going and Led Zeppel and I mean um the Foo Fighters obviously have gone through some rig moral recently. And Josh, speaking of Josh Freeze, I mean he he really is a session drummer who de prop you know probably didn't belong in the band in some ways. I thought he sounded great, but yeah, I'm funny with Josh Freeze. I th I think he really suits some things into other things.

SPEAKER_05 48:16

Yeah, yeah. But that's a great point. So that was a real life example.

SPEAKER_03 48:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:21

Did were Food Fighters better? He he is, I mean, technically, he's a better drummer than Taylor Hawkins. Yeah. I love Taylor Hawkins, that wasn't a diss on him at all. I love Taylor Hawkins. Uh Josh Freeze is he's a better drummer, technically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um were the band better?

SPEAKER_02 48:42

I guess not. That's I guess that's why they got him out.

SPEAKER_05 48:45

And that's it's it's this whole thing, right? Yeah. Can you imagine if he did stop playing Lars stopped playing?

SPEAKER_03 48:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:52

Can you imagine the audition process? How on earth you you cannot replace him? He's five people. He's business, he's drums.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Yeah, definitely. Not only that though, but he has this relationship now with Hetfield. Yeah. That I mean, these guys learnt to play together, basically. I mean, probably not literally right at the start, but they were very, very young and they navigated the business and went through hell together and the whole thing. So they're they're gonna be locked as in terms of their chemistry musically. I reckon if they um went out and tried to do it with someone else, it would take a long time for it to settle. Have you heard about the one time um where Lars couldn't make it? Yeah. I watched a bit of that the other day.

SPEAKER_05 49:32

Was Joey Jordison and someone else did another set? It was um there was drummer?

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

Yeah, there was a few people that played. Um it was the download festival in 2004. Lars had suffered a s a severe anxiety attack and was rushed to hospital. Uh Dave Lombardo from Slayer. He's a monster. He played Battery and the Four Horsemen. Lars's drum tech. No kidding. Lars's drum tech's name is Fleming Larson. Is that a requirement? That your first name must be in your tech surname. Um I like that guy. I like the sound of his name. Let's hire him. He played sounds like a gun. But um I've I've come across that quite a bit actually, and yes, it was Joey Jordison uh from Slipknot played the rest of the set. Um but often their texts can sit in like that. Often the texts are better musicians.

SPEAKER_05 50:28

I think it really highlights it too that that one gig that he didn't make was such a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Because he makes every gig. But also people have talked about how there were technically better drummers on that gig and it just didn't sound like Metallica.

SPEAKER_05 50:42

I think you could get someone in who's really adept in the style, and it would probably snap them a little bit more at a time. And I I think possibly it might translate as a better sound life. Right. I th I I'll I'll accept that. But again, like you say, Mike, this this this is what the hobbyist sees. They just see this the raw very narrow view. And you're not seeing what's happening the other uh you know, 22 hours of the day. Yeah. And then year after year, decade after decade.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

In some ways, this entire episode could be a waste of time. Damn. And the reason why I say that is because maybe we're going to put too much effort um to counter an argument that's not really an argument. Is it actually just that people just get swept up in uh common belief systems?

SPEAKER_05 51:40

But surely part of it is jealousy as well. Because sh you want to be a successful musician. Yeah. You know, well, I don't know, is it still a thing? Do people still want to be rock stars? They certainly used to.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

Yeah. I think they want to be influencers now.

SPEAKER_05 51:52

Maybe. Um but surely jealousy is part of this.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Maybe, but I just think that a lot of the time people just say what everyone else says. You know, they just they know that oh everyone has Lars, he's such a dick, you know, and they just they just repeat it. They do it about Ringo, they do it about Bono, they do it all to people.

SPEAKER_05 52:08

It's almost like we bully this kid because he's weird. Yeah. And then everyone else says, Yeah, he's weird. Yeah, so I'm gonna bully him too.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

It's like have you had your own thought? Have you ever heard of critical thinking?

SPEAKER_05 52:19

I mean, I obviously don't know Lars. I I don't know what he's like as a guy, you know. Maybe he's not someone I would want to have a coffee with. I I have no idea. I don't really care. Yeah, you know, but I do think it is just it's rough.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

I I have listened to a few interviews with him in the last day or so. Um, and of course I don't know him either, and he might he might be a total nightmare to know. But I I actually think he comes across really well. I agree. I think he comes across really smart, really thoughtful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

And I think it's easier to see that now when we get a lot more sort of long-form content. You know, when if you sit down and listen to an hour-long podcast where he's been interviewed on it, you get a lot more depth and nuance. Whereas I feel like probably for the majority of their career, the only time you ever saw anything was a little snippet.

SPEAKER_04 53:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

You know, so you see those snippets out of like the documentary, or or you see an interview where he does where maybe he comes off a little bit pretentious, or you know, because that's sort of the his personality and the business um, you know, his business attitude. I definitely think that plays a large part in the hate. And I don't know if it is jealousy, I don't know if it's simply, well, you're a rock star, you shouldn't be caring about all that stuff. But I mean, you know, we don't hold professional athletes to that same standard. No. I don't underst I never really understood why you hold musicians to that. Like they have to be this and I mean maybe because part of it is that sort of rebellious, angry attitude that that they that they portray in their music. But that doesn't need to be them 24-7. You I hope it's not.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

That's a great point. I I've always thought about that. Athletes are in bar fights and they and drug rings and they do all sorts of crazy stuff. We're like, ah, it's fine. You know, he got so many tries on the last year. They get they get hit in the head for a living. But Lars has an opinion, doesn't want his music stolen. What a prick. I know, you know.

SPEAKER_05 54:02

It's interesting. And if there is like an element of cultural cringe, sort of, you know, almost like he's being cancelled. He's he's the guy. You could do this in reverse with a term that you love, yacht rock. Like for what for want of a better term. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

This is where we're in agreement. This is gonna be a different episode. But we we like the music, we don't like the name yacht rock.

SPEAKER_05 54:24

So that's kind of done the other way, right? Right. Where that was incredibly cringe.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:28

Hall of Notes.

unknown 54:30

Ooh.

SPEAKER_05 54:31

That's like, you know, that's that's what my parents would listen to and stuff. And then but now it's cool. Yeah. But nothing that's a different episode.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

I'll want to get into that. But it's only cool in a kind of parody way, like a ironic way.

SPEAKER_05 54:46

An ironic way, exactly. I also think there's another inception layer of this where it still only works if it's good.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

I agree.

SPEAKER_05 54:54

You can't put it on and ironically love it.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

Maybe people use the irony side of it to give themselves permission to enjoy it again.

SPEAKER_05 55:03

Player, baby, baby comeback. I always get always gonna say baby got back. So Max of Two totally different songs. Yeah, baby. You know the song, right? Yeah. Player, baby come back. I I don't understand. If you don't like that song, we can't be friends. It's like that is an example where you hear it, you hear people playing it a lot now. Yeah. Or they'll use it as background on on like an Instagram clip or whatever. It's just like, you know, you actually do like that song. You're using it ironically, but you like you like it.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

Did did you have anything else you wanted to comment on? Um, no, I think we're I think we're good. Well, if you are enjoying the show. Do you want to do this bit? I don't feel like talking anymore.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Sure. If you're enjoying the show, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and tell a friend. It helps us grow and we really appreciate it. And make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

So what is our this is where we try to um summarize, we try to come up with a conclusion, we talk about anything we've learned or if our minds have been changed about anything. So do you want to take the lead on that?

SPEAKER_05 56:08

Um I'm I'm pretty staunch on this. Um I don't like bullying. Yeah, whether it's a little kid or a rich rock star, you know. Um that is what it is, isn't it? Of course it is. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think of that. And like if we're talking about success buckets, we all set out to be as good as we can. And they've hit the targets and then some. Right. They smashed, they made new targets. So 120 to 180 million albums worldwide. So and possibly, you know, aside from the money and everything, it's probably the legacy. You know, people will always listen to Metallica's music. Yeah. Um, forever. As long as we've got music.

SPEAKER_02 56:48

Well, look what happened when they came here just recently. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:50

Just instantly sold out. Still selling out, you know. So I don't know. I just think what what are you winning from taking part in it? Just don't listen.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:02

I mean, again, I'm not even the the number one fanboy. I don't listen to Metallica. So that's the point. I just don't listen.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:10

But if I do, it's like, cool. Especially the old tracks, you know, it's like this is amazing. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Mike. Um I do understand some of the pushback around uh maybe some of the simplicity in the playing. Um, I can understand some of the pushback and maybe uh some of the the attitudes around his business persona and some of the the the other you know outspoken things that he said. Right. But you know, he was and still is the most outspoken member of the band. So when they want to do an interview, he's the one who's up there. And and it's just you you naturally attract more noise and and controversy around you when you're out constantly putting yourself out there. So I think that's a big part of it. But I mean at the end of the day, I think Lars is the CEO of the most successful metal band in history. Yeah. Um, and I think without Lars, there's no Metallica.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

And also there's no all the other bands that were influenced by them. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I um surprised to hear you say the simplicity because I think their music is pretty much.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Yeah, I was gonna press back on that as well a little bit. I guess that's that's what I've read other people say online. I don't know, I don't really agree with it to be honest.

SPEAKER_05 58:14

I think it's more execution now of um much beloved drum parts. It's possibly some live execution. Um but it's hard to play live. He's what is he, 61? It's no picnic playing this stuff. That's that was an eight-minute song.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Yeah, and he's been doing it at the highest level since the 80s.

SPEAKER_05 58:34

And hey, he's not phoning it in. He is playing it. Right. James is singing. Do we want to go here? James is singing live. Yeah. These guys are playing live. And there's something great. We're not doing back end tracks. That's it. We're not on click, we're not doing this and that. So that alone, yeah, you know, it deserves some level of respect, I think.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

My conclusion is more or less along the same lines. I started my prep for this episode relatively indifferent. I just thought it'd be an interesting thing to talk about. Um I finished my research and just have now got enormous respect for the guy. His attitude, his like you like you were talking about, Mike, is his um driving force, his his business mind. He's you know, th they've gone through a lot. I mean the other side of that Napster thing is what would it be like to be him and have that much hate come at you like a tsunami, you know? Um, I don't know how he got through that and didn't snap. I think I don't know if I could have gotten through that. Um yeah, so I just came out the other end just going, I think he's actually really awesome. Cool. That's a great way to finish. The Lars Love Fest is concluded. Yeah. Who would have thought? All right. You've got a riff for us, Mike. Sure. C minor? Yep.

SPEAKER_05 59:56

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

I don't want to rub the vibe.nz or email info at aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz to find out more.