7. Why Do People Love Steven Adler?

Was Steven Adler the greatest drummer in 1980s rock 'n' roll? Maybe not the flashiest. But listen to Appetite for Destruction and you'll hear something no technically perfect player could replicate: a groove that breathes, swaggers, and feels like it's one beat away from flying off the rails. When Adler left, something walked out that never came back. Drummer Andrew Rooney joins us to break down exactly why.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

I've got to leave, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Welcome to the show, Danny. Thank you. Who are we sitting here with today? We're sitting here with Rooney Andrew. Hey. Oh, hey, Rooney Andrew.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Is it alright if we call you Rooney?

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

I always refer to you as Rooney in my head. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

Every time you message me. I was always Rooney at school. Yeah. Rooney. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

We're here to talk about um Guns N' Roses, but you're wearing the wrong t-shirt.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

I thought of wearing my Guns N' Roses t-shirt today, which I do have. Yep. Appetite for Destruction shirt, but it's a little bit toit at the moment. And uh didn't want to put you guys through that.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yeah. The album did come out a little while ago, so. Oh, you said that yesterday, didn't you?

SPEAKER_03 0:54

What's that? Didn't you say that on message yesterday? You pointed out that it's close to 40 years. 40 years. Wow. When what year did it come out? 87. 87, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

I believe recorded partly in 86, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05

So yeah, 40 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Way to make us all feel old. Indeed. So you're actually the one who brought the idea for this episode up. I don't know if you remember that. Jeez.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Probably one of the many occasions that I've gushed about Stephen Adler's performance on this album.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

It was when I uh invited you to be on the Lars episode. Right. You were like, can we also talk about Adler? Come on.

SPEAKER_04 1:27

Okay. Please. Well, you know, um, I think the album Appetite for Destruction, which is his that's what we know him for, um, relatively small discography. I think it's a masterpiece rock album, my personal opinion. And I think his drum performance in that masterpiece album is perfect art.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Right. Okay. He just put it on the table. Yeah, that's a big claim.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

He just threw it out there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

I've actually written down one of the greatest recorded rock and roll drum performances in the 80s. Wow. Rock and roll drum performances.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

I'm really pleasantly surprised and I feel somewhat validated.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

What that I said that.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

No, that other people also notice how good this is. Right. Like, it is it's special.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

Well, who are who his competitors in rock and roll? What are the other ones that people might, if there were 25 other people here, what are some other albums I'd throw in? 80s and rock and roll. So Monty Crew? We're not talking Jeff Picaro. No. Yeah. Uh Monty Crew. Tom Lee Lee? I guess so. I never really listened to him very much.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

It was around the same vibe, you know, same LA.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

His playing never jumped out at me. I just saw him as more of a controversial clickbaity figure.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

This is a different beat. This is swag. Yeah, yeah. This is swing and pocket. I'm sure we'll get in more into what is it? You know? Okay, it sounds good. Why? You know. What is it about this? That is so special.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

I feel like that question you're raising is the question all musicians need to spend the rest of their lives trying to figure out when they listen to anyone. Why does Marlis Davis sound like that?

SPEAKER_04 3:08

Yeah, and could easily um overlook the drumming performance on the album. I think you could easily overlook it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

I have for years.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Yeah. Because it is quite invisible. Because you're coming in pretty cold on this one, right? Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I'm I mean, I know Guns N' Roses hits, um, but never really did a deep dive, never really listened to their back catalogue or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

So I don't know why you would have when you had you know a much more significant uh rock band of that being rushed.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

I'm gonna put that into every episode now. I'm out of here.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

But how but I mean I know you're you're a bit younger than us, and we're actually um you're younger than me too, I think. But anyway, we're we're all actually too young for appetite because when it came out I was still a kid. Oh, and that was part of the appeal.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

Yeah, it was dangerous. Yeah. We weren't supposed to be listening to it. Dangerous. Yeah. There was swearing on it, you know. Right. We had the the little orange MF uh headphones at primary school, one stretched out onto each ear. Did you hear him swing around? He swore, he said the F-word, I can't believe it. Rewind again. Did he actually say it? Like, did we really hear that? You know?

SPEAKER_03 4:20

That was bad music. You just reminded me that my friends and I used to argue or debate about which rock stars could could beat up other rock stars. Like, do you think Sebastian Bach could beat up Axel Rose? Like, God no, Axl Rose would destroy him. But do you think Axl Rose could beat up Slash? We're like, hmm. Pull us a tough one, it's scratch him.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Completely irrelevant.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

I know, but we talked about that for hours. But do you think a tiger could beat up a bear?

SPEAKER_01 4:46

It's like Yeah, it's it's uh I mean it's it's interesting to see the sort of attitude that that they really portrayed because I mean I feel like some bands for some bands it is a portrayal. Yeah. And for them it definitely didn't feel like that, you know. Yeah that they they really had that sort of aggression, they really had that sort of edge.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

You mean they weren't acting or posturing. Absolutely. They were living it. Yeah. I well, I mean we plan to do a proper full episode on Appetite as an album, yeah. And I think that's one of the more important aspects of it. I think that you're hitting the nail right on the head, is that these guys were in the fight for their lives um in in that era of their lives, and that all came onto the record, you know. Um so I think that deserves its own episode for sure. But part of that is is Adler's playing, and and I've got my own opinions, of course, about all of that, but it's great to have you here, Rooney, as a drummer. Thanks, Adler. Because you can you can interpret, and you've already, you know, given me a couple of clues and s of some stuff you're gonna bring up, which is stuff I'd never have thought of. Oh. Just not seeing it through the lens of a drummer, you know. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:47

What's the what was the first one you think that jumps jumps out of it? Of what you said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

We're gonna talk about the Bo Diddley reference.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

And that's that's great because you know, like I had a long conversation with a friend of mine about Slash's guitar playing and we're at one point, and we're trying to work out what was unique about him, and we started to realise that there are country looks in his playing.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Um, that sets him apart. And of course, you don't think of country in that context, right? And for both of us, I mean, we might have been several beers in, but for both of us that felt like a eureka. We got it, we figured it out. You know, that's the the slash thing. Um, and so when you said uh there's a bow didddly reference in Welcome to the Jungle.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

There a little bit in there. Yeah. Um Mr. Brownstone is a really obvious one. And it provides a little bit of like earthiness to the sound. Um whether we know it or not, we've got the bow diddly rhythm in our body and our brain. Yeah. Which is it's very close to the clave. Do you do you want do you want me to squeeze up one of the gun songs? Let's do it. So Mr. Brownstone.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

So we listen to that first and then the Bo Diddley thing? Oh, let's do Bo Diddley first.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

That's really interesting because I didn't I had no idea that there was any sort of reference like that. And I'm a I'm a big blues guy, that's kind of what I love. You know Bo Diddley? I do. Yeah. And Mr. Brownstone, I think, is my favorite uh favorite song of theirs. So it's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

So you found your Anna Diddley.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

Yeah, there we go. So Bo Diddley was the guy, also the name of the song, but also ended up being like a specific s rhythmic like style. Right. You'll when you hear it, you'll be like, oh that. So we've got that in our head. Oh yeah, definitely. That is literally exactly a bow diddly rhythm.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

And what are the chances that's a coincidence? Uh do you know enough about Adler to know his influences on you?

SPEAKER_04 7:50

I don't, but obviously this is somewhere in the episode as well, at least. And it pops up a few times and is picked from rhythm.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

So uh again, one thing that surprised me to learn about Splash is he grew up in the Hollywood Hills hanging out with his mum, who was an artist, and she knew lots of the sort of like country rock bands and stuff like that. So that also explained why he has country in his influences. Um Stephen Adler, I don't know. Well, okay, it says here he was born in Cleveland, Ohio. His name was Michael Colletti from The Godfather. No.

SPEAKER_04 8:25

So I wonder. But that rhythm, like I hear it on the drums because it is it's doubled on the drums, but you mentioned Slash. It's it's clearly on the guitar as well. I mean, you can go back again if you wanted to, and he he plays the bow didddly on the guitar.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Yeah, because slash sets it up. I wonder who wrote it first. Who wrote the first bit? The riff must have come first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

I want candy. Yeah, it's a little bit. It's everywhere. Once you hear it, you can't not hear it. Like a clave. Yeah. Which clave, if you translate into English, is key. Ah. Right? Spanish for key. Right. Um, and I think you could argue it is the key to a lot of rhythmic foundation. That ba ba ba ba ba, or something a bit more clave-ish like ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

I remember being surprised when I was a kid that Slash doesn't play that riff. That it's um it's um what's his face? Um Izzy that plays that, who I, by the way, also think deserves an episode. Izzy's underrated. Totally the sound of guns, totally the groove center as well.

SPEAKER_04 9:45

Oh, and Duff.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

Yeah. Well, it doesn't matter. But Duff gets lots of credit. Right. Izzy gets overlooked a lot, I think. Really? Absolutely. Uh because he also quit in '91. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

I don't agree with that. Like as a as a casual fan who didn't really keep up with it, I didn't even really know Izzy's name until I started doing some of the deep dives.

SPEAKER_04 10:00

Well, at first, of course, it's Axel's mind-blowing vocals, yeah, which were totally unique, especially at the time. Probably still now are pretty unique, I'd say. And Slash. Right. That's what stood out, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Was those two. Those guys are the you know, the shop window. Yeah. Um, but the the driving force in my mind, in many ways, is Izzy and Steven. Because it's for me, it bands are always groove up. Yep. Um, and and I anyway, I was just thinking about that riff. So if I came to you in a rehearsal and said I've got this new riff, it's hard, it's so hard to do this now, but where would your brain go? Would you g like you know, or would you would you hear the bow diddly thing? Almost like a half-time shuffle or something, you know? That what that's what you'd do if you're like Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

It's impossible for me to not hear it.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

I felt that way about Yeah, you've heard it so many years, you can't really you can't really separate it now.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

I was gonna say that on the last episode actually, is that I've so many times in my life I've been in a writing session or something with a band and been really surprised at how uninspired the drumbeat is that the drummer comes up with. Right. And then I thought, well, why can't you just come up with something like Bonham, you know, or Cope or Copeland or whatever. Oh, sorry. And then go, oh, okay, they were pretty good. And then of course I have the same problem on the guitar in various sessions where you spend an hour playing utter garbage until you finally find the thing that fits. And then it seems obvious. Why didn't I do that an hour ago? Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

So that's that risk-taking thing a little bit, isn't it, that we talked about on the last one as well. And just just this lightning bolt sort of magic in a lightning in a bottle, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Yeah, but but I don't what so when you've done sessions in the past, like because sometimes I'll sit there and almost go through my archive of albums and artists and things like that. I'm curious to know if you do the same thing. I'm also curious to know if you think that Adler is going uh Bonham, Copeland, Bodidley.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

No, no. I I think he is like Lars and he's just a pure musician where he's just he's got his thing. Right. The way he plays is so different. Um I sent you through a um a YouTube uh link to him playing live, and this is uh about ten years ago. Um so well I'm sure we'll get into some of his difficulties. So he was clearly a little bit hindered by what had been his past. But when you watch him play, right? He he plays like a rock drummer.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Is it Night Train or is it another thing?

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Oh the live Night Train. Yeah, this is not gonna be as impactful as watching it, but it's shocking how good it is. It's just I mean it's mind-blowing. So which one am I playing now? Um, you you could play that live Night Train. Get going. It's rock and roll after all. So this is about 10 years ago. So this is post-stroke and I believe it's Adler's appetite. Okay, not that's not gums and roses. Right. It's um the name of a a band. I mean it's all there. Makes it even better for me. Focal is crazy good. Um I find audio and I can hear it. Yeah, because that way sounds good. I mean, yeah. Yeah, that is absolute under money.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

And the groove's there, isn't it? It is. And if you like that's actually con if you told me that was Smash Play, I'd probably believe you. It's a rubbish recording, but it is.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

If you have a good l listen to it, perhaps after this. Yeah, you I mean the vocalist is out of control here. Yeah, we're one of these LA guys that, you know, climb a dozen incredible rock vocalists that's just, you know, fallen off a tree. But um, this recording was such a surprise to me because I would have assumed he would have lost it.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Because given what's happened since.

SPEAKER_04 14:20

But it's all there, and I believe he just is what he is. He does his thing. Yeah. Um, like for example, like if you hit a snare, now obviously this is audio podcast, but if I play nice and compact, correct, and I just compact meaning because it's audio and just close to yourself.

SPEAKER_03 14:40

Close to myself. No arms flailing.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

Arms straight, you know, up and down, hit in the snare. That is a lot different to a full swing, you know, hand above my ear, and this, but every hit. So I'm doing this like circle, like sort of hitting and and to make the arc for that stick to come down. I've got to get the stick out of the way. Right. There's almost like a big bit of a dance, it's very fluid motion. Absolutely. There's a bit of a machine getting created there. Yeah. As opposed to rigid, you know, hitting hitting the right notes. Being a drum machine. And I'm and I'm playing nitrine and I'm doing all the right stuff, it's not gonna sound anything like it because you you haven't got this big greasy machine moving.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Yeah. I was lucky enough to be on a a Zoom call group thing with um Copeland a few years ago. One of my friends in LA said there's this group of people that meet every now and then and they often get a guest into talk. And if you can make the time, which was about 3 30 in the morning, New Zealand time. And um, but the guest was Copeland, and I was like, uh, I'll be there. So um I got up and and and anyway, so he he made this comment. He goes, After all these years, I've finally learnt that if you if you hit the skin really hard, you lose all your tone, it becomes this this kind of crack sound. But if you just drop the sk the stick on the skin, yeah, you know, it you get the full range of the EQ. You can choke it if you have it too hard, yeah. And it was pretty funny that he was saying this, you know, how many decades after the police ended? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:06

With his iconic snare sound. But yeah, Adler's an example, especially if you watch him. The the live 1988 at the Ritz.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

I love that show. That show's incredible.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

It is that is peak, yeah, 80s debauchery, yeah, rock music.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

And it's also they are Appetite's out, but it takes a while to catch on. And that's that's I think in the first year or something, right? And they're still playing really good.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

Yeah, Axel sounds good, everyone is tight. Yeah, it's pretty much at is they're pretty much playing the album as that's the one I told you about.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

That's that must be them kind of at their peak before. It's worth a look. Yeah, yeah. 1988 New York.

SPEAKER_04 16:47

And you could you can imagine when you watch that the energy, yeah. That the buzz there must have been around that band.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

How many people do you reckon are in that audience? Because it feels like a small like underground cloud. 200? Yeah. Maybe. So is Adler a was Adler a hard hitter? Yeah. I mean, he would have been a hard hitter because he was in the rock and roll world. But relative to the rock and roll world, was he a hard hitter?

SPEAKER_04 17:08

I think he's a hard hitter.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

So how did he maintain his tone?

SPEAKER_04 17:12

Well, he's rim-shotting, right? So, um try and describe this. So you can picture a rim. Would you like the bongos? Well, they don't really have the rim. So for the for the viewers at home, we've got the skin on top of a drum, and then we've got the rim, which is metal. Um, there's a technique called rim shot where you can hit both at basically the same time, and you get the crack of the rim, but the sound of the head as well. Right. I can't do it because this is as opposed to you get a bit of a saying anger. Yeah, there you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Um and and obviously I'm familiar with that sound, but how would you describe what that adds as opposed to a regular snare hit? He just in general.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

There's a certain pa, there's a certain pa sound to his snare tone, and it is just it's muted as well. So he he he's heavily taped up the head. This is all stuff you're not supposed to do, of course.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

But it's um D did he do that most of the time or something? Taped up?

SPEAKER_03 18:24

No, no, the rimshot.

SPEAKER_04 18:25

Oh yeah. Well, he he's an example of a guy who's just cleanly rimshoting. I've never heard him this.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:31

Like live at the roots, or you know, obviously the album's just clean rim shots the whole way through, and it's just like this guy's a machine. Like, it's hard to evenly hit a snare like that. Especially when you're coming from up here, hand above head, and rocking rocking out. We're not playing. I mean, his his sound is spectacular. Yeah. Bright symbols, like if we dig into a sound, bright symbols which are out of fashion now, right? Everybody has very dark symbols now.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

That's been in fashion for quite a while. Of course it'll go back to bright. Yeah. Swings around. Hey, look at these new bright symbols. You can actually hear them. Um, so he had like a big difference between his drums and his symbols. I think there's like a frequency thing happening here where it's very separated. Um bright uh symbols, deep muted drums, and it's just, I don't know, it just works. Plus the way he hits it.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Uh it's also interesting that you're just talking about what's popular in terms of mixing and EQing and so on. Um because I find a lot of modern drums really um hard to listen to in rock bands because they're they're taking a lot of the presence out. This the sound of the snares is is often gone. Um, you can't hear the sort of the life of the kit. It sounds very subby on the kick and very boxy on the snare and almost not much else going on. Where I really like hearing the hi-hat, you know, uh and and I I guess I like hearing more of the room.

SPEAKER_04 20:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

We went to see um Biffy Cornrow. What were they called? Biffy Clairo. And that was something you said afterwards, right? What what what do you say again? You said like something about it being quite subby.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, it it was I've seen them probably four or five times now. That was for whatever reason, I don't know if it was just the mixing in at Auckland Town Hall, but that was probably one of the muddier um sounds I've heard from them. Like I still thought Ben, their drummers still sounded great. Yeah, but it um yeah, I don't know if it's just the echoiness of that um boomy. Yeah, it's a tough room. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

But I definitely think that they went for that subby sound because I think that's like the modern mix. Yep. And I find it frustrating because I I could see how good their bass player was, but I couldn't hear a note she was playing. Like I could hear it, I could feel the weight of it, but I couldn't actually hear it. It wasn't differentiated enough.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

I heard that at Spark where I literally can't hear a bass note.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yeah. It's so frustrating. It's very annoying. And if you go and listen to a lot of um bands from the 90s and 80s and so on, they're actually not as big and fat as you think. You know, like um I remember when verses came out by Pearl Jam and just loving the sound of that record and and loving the drums on that record. Anyone, you know, who hasn't heard it for a while, go and listen to it again because it's like dat the get dah the the get like it's really quite thin. Yeah. But it doesn't suffer for it, I don't think.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

Well, I was listening to this album uh yesterday, and I was surprised it wasn't more bottom endy. Yeah. Um that's what I mean. They've clearly focused, it's like a the queen effect, right? We're here to hear Freddy. And there's a couple of other guys playing as well. Um it's a little bit like that, you know, it's like guitar up front, vocals on top of that.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Yeah, but I was just about to bring that up because another thing I hate about modern mixes is the vocals being way out front. I've got a theory, and I'm right, just in case you don't know. Um, my theory is that people turn their volume up and down to the vocals, right? So when you have the vocals, like rock bands have vocals mixed to the level that vocals are done in pop music, and it means that you turn the thing down to the to where the vocals are good, and now the Guitars and drums and everything are way down, right? But if you go back and listen to any of the classic rock albums from you know at least 30 years ago, the vocals are down in the band. And you know, you set the vocal uh level and the guitars are right there, and the drums are right there, and it feels more exciting, feels more alive.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

I think the concept back then you were recording mostly live, you were almost trying to capture a a live, you know, the excitement of being at the gig, which is a crazy concept to try and capture a band.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:31

What they actually sound like and not perfect it and start moving this and moving that.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah, not take splicing take one of 78 together, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

I mean, I'd be really curious, Mike, because you're not you wouldn't have heard this album as much as us. I mean, to me, I feel like I'm at the gig when I listen to the album. Like it it feels so immersive. The drum kit does not sound like separate parts, it sounds like one instrument. And everything's just weaving in and out, and like you say, it's just it's just like perfection for me. But what do you what what do you think of the mix the thing that's like?

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, I definitely I definitely feel some of that as well. Um I actually listened to it today on my dialogue. Um and yeah, it's uh there is a lot of energy. Immersive? Yeah, very much so. Um I don't Yeah, I guess I'm not I wasn't as familiar with it um like any of the back catalogues. Obviously I know their hits, you know, Sweet Child of Mine and Paradise City and stuff like that. But hearing um yeah, hearing that energy from the entire band and really hearing uh Axel's vocal range and some of the other songs that I hadn't heard so much, that was cool to hear as well, you know. I didn't didn't When he goes low? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 23:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy vocals.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Absolutely, yeah. The idea of everything being so fixed these days, everything being quantized and edited to such a degree. One thing I think is quite interesting is that prior to the digital age, because you couldn't perfect things, it never occurred to the musicians to try and make anything perfect. Yeah. If you don't have perfection as an option, it's not even an option. Let's just think about that for a second. Certainly for these guys. Yeah, so and and everyone before them. Yeah. Um you the making it perfect is not available. It can't be quantized, it can't be tuned, it's not possible. Yeah. So if you can't, if you're not if it's not even worth thinking about, what is your primary objective in the studio? Energy, feel, emotion. 100%. And it's and it's and if you and the other thing is if you can't see it on the screen, you don't necessarily see how it sits on the How many times have I been editing something and I've gone, oh, the snare is slightly in front of the grid, better fix it. And then I listen to it and I go, wait a minute, I didn't hear that. I just saw it.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

It lost, yeah, maybe at least maybe it loses a bit of feel when you do that.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Exactly. And and the reason why I brought this up is because you started talking about the swagger. Funnily enough, I wrote the same word down, swagger.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

Which is a word I don't use.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Right, same, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:01

But it it's just like balls out. Where else would you use it?

SPEAKER_01 25:05

This is the right, this is the right situation to use swagger.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

But I so I wrote down um swagger, surprising choices, tempo fluctuations, urgency, and danger in his playing.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

I totally agree with all of that. I mean, we can get into as well. I don't know if we want to go there right now, but what is it about the feel? You know, like what is it, what is he specifically doing? So like if we if we think of that bowdly. Alright, let's come back to the bow diddly for a second, like favorite word at the moment. Yeah. Two words. Um so sixteenth notes, right? Um sixteenth notes are these.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 25:48

He's not playing that. He's going.

SPEAKER_03 25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

So that's a big difference. Because these are technically sixteenth nodes.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Right. But so are these. So it's two it's two treatments, isn't it? Because it's the cycle of threes and it's also the swing. Yeah. One, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three. Like that. Yeah, absolutely. But then it's like it's not like that can be hard to I just want to um um know how many brownie points I get. Knowing the answer to that. I'm a guitar player, I'm a guitar player, just anything.

SPEAKER_04 26:23

So these are the little details, and then we've got degrees of swing.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

Right? Again, Adler's not thinking, oh, we're gonna get this certain degree of swing on this song. Like, he's just playing from the start. It's there. But you could go. Yeah. You could go too far the other way. Yeah. So he's he's he's what we would call in the cracks. He's never straight, he's never swung, he's greasy. He's right.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Answer me this, because sometimes when people ask me what is a swing, I I mean I simplify it to explain it, and I say, well, normally the end's on you know, halfway between the beats, right? 50%. If you just think of it as you divide the beat into three pieces and put the snare at 66%. I mean not the snare, the end at 66%. Yeah. But I know I'm basically just describing a shuffle. I'm not describing like just a swing. Like that's a type of swing. But because there are so many degrees of swing, do you think I'm answering that correctly as an introduction to the subject of swing? Yep. And then you learn how to vary it around 66%.

SPEAKER_04 27:20

Yeah, because this this we start getting into the Steve Jordan debate where people start thinking, oh, but he's he plays so simple. Right. Yeah, but listen to the consistency. Yeah. He's micro adjusted his beat to fit the bassist. Right. And it's like, that's why it feels like that. And if you jump up on the stage, the bassist is gonna be giving you like the stink eye because you're not there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:42

You can't hear it.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:44

But he's hearing it.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

And I'm not saying Stephen Adler is Steve Jordan, but he's just he does his thing. You said before, lightning in a bottle. We've got slash, he does his thing, Steven does his thing. Izzy X on then boom. I wonder if Stephen Adler ever had less. Ooh. I believe he was a guitarist at first.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Was he? Did he have guitar lessons? Whether you've never picked up a guitar or you've been playing for years and feel like you've hit a wall, Auckland guitar lessons are for you. Lessons are one-on-one, and every session is built around your goals, your tastes, and the songs you actually want to play. All the fundamentals of technique and theory are covered in an accessible way and applied within the songs you are learning, so you progress faster and actually enjoy the ride. If you've always wanted to play, now's the time. If you've plateaued, Auckland Guitar Lessons will unlock your playing, rebuild your confidence, and get you moving again. Head to aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz or email info at aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz to find out more.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

He just came in full pro, and I just realized that this is all a big mistake because Mike's lovely professional North American voice is making you and me sound like a couple of dummies.

SPEAKER_04 28:55

I like Stephen Adler. I like Stephen Adler That's the kiwi.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

The infection of the gut inflection.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

I mean, what do you think, Mike? I think it's great. Do you teach Sweet Child of Mine at guitar lessons?

SPEAKER_03 29:13

Uh occasionally. I actually did this week, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

I heard that that was he got that out of a guitar book. It was an exercise.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

It doesn't surprise me. Yeah. Yeah. I've actually heard of lots of songs that have come about that way. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Yeah, I've heard that as well. It was like a it was a warm-up exercise that he was doing, and then um Axel came in the room and said, hang on, play that again. He's like, no, no, it's just, you know, I'm just I'm just practicing, I'm just stretching. And he's like, no, no, there's something there. Yeah. Sure enough there was.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Probably would that be their biggest hit? It must be. Paradise City?

SPEAKER_01 29:46

No. See, I I yeah, as a as a casual music fan and not somebody who's into Guns N' Roses, I would probably say Sweet Child. That's that's the one that I always think of. Paradise City.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

Is Paradise City or Sweet Child of Mine the biggest hit from Guns N' Roses?

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Yeah. Sweet Child of Mine is definitely the biggest hit. It's their most iconic song, way more recognizable globally. Paradise City is a classic and gets plenty of love. But Sweet Child just has that legendary status.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

I think we'll just like knock you down a picture than Elderly. What does AI know? Well, what do I know? Yeah, what do we know? What do we know?

SPEAKER_04 30:26

But like even that song, which would be one of their more I guess it's more samey.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Which one?

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Sweetchild? Yeah. A little bit more samey from you know top to bottom. It's a very poppy pop song, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 30:40

It's probably the most accessible song.

SPEAKER_04 30:43

Still within that, the sections, right? The the arrangement. Is this a guitar solo I'm hearing, or is this a whole new melody? You know, like well, I guess we're we're varying off into like slash territory. Oh yeah, okay. He's composing, eh? Like he's really I can't differentiate the solos to the to a new part in those in the album.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

Because this is the other thing that always stands out to me about so many of these bands, um, versus their kind of imitators, is that they have the songs. Yeah. And the songs aren't just your predictable four chord, blah blah blah, it's like arrangement genius, key changes and that that um in Sweet Child of Mind, which was possibly the cheesiest song they they ever did. Um, but that big ascension into the solo, the key changes, dun dun, dun dun dun, dun dun, you know, all that sort of stuff. It's amazing. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Which is also impressive that they wrote this in their early 20s. Yeah, right. Like that's incredible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

I'd like to know oh again, probably more for the appetite um episode, but the cowbell. Yeah. Huge feature of this album. I'm so annoyed the cowbell went out of fashion. Well, Rage Against the Machine, first album. Cowbell maybe on every track. I I would have to go back. Um, well, it's prominent. Very prominent here.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

What what turned it into a joke again? It was a movie, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Blue Oyster Cult. Don't fear the Reaper. Yeah, but that's SNL. Will Ferrell's. Oh, that's right. Yeah, more cow carbon, yeah. Which was which was hilarious. It was good.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

So yeah, now every time you know you you'll put on any of these songs, or someone will write in the comment section, oh more carbo.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Check this out though. Um, this is a song that I've always loved, but it's a lesser known song on appetite. I just think the drums in this are incredible.

SPEAKER_04 32:34

Rashley almost.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

But it starts off pretty straightforward in a way. I mean, it's relentless. But just as the song built and built and built, I'll take half time.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Yeah. Yeah, alright. So 21 to the like, yeah, that's it's a bit. Here we go right now. I mean, it's almost a bit loose. If you took it a double time, yeah. Like that's good blues instead of lead.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

And for the main one, yeah, yeah, it's a country player. I've been playing it ever since I got conversation with my friend. Yeah. And it's a stonker we don't even remember. It's like way towards the end somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 34:51

Oh no, like for me, this of obviously when you get the album, saved up your money, when you're at primary school, you run down to the record store and buy it for Paradise City and Sweet Child. But you soon realize, man, we've got Rocket Queen. Yeah. We've got Night Train. Yeah. And like the No misses for me. We've also got this. Yeah. What kind of intro is this?

SPEAKER_03 35:21

Is that hard to do? It is. I like it. I like it how we um he always anticipates. He's always sort of in the thing a bar or two early. Like on that previous song, there's that like, was it a two, maybe four bar build in the next section, and just then it's like he opened the groove up for a couple of bars before they came in. Yeah. And and it I don't know why that appeals to me so much.

SPEAKER_04 35:45

There's almost like a natural tension and release thing happening with the chemistry in the band, where they keep building tension and then release it. And Adler's got a certain way with using plans of buttoning he buttons the idea cleanly, and then they sort of go on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Beautiful. Slightly in front of the feet a little bit. Or am I not hearing that incorrectly?

SPEAKER_03 36:13

I feel like the snares button in front. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 36:17

I not now. Not now. I honestly cannot separate him from the album. I just everything is where it's supposed to be. I think I think he dropped back in tempo just then. Yep. In a good way.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yeah, it feels like the the the more intense part almost feels like it's pushing it forward. Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:35

And again, if we put all this on a grid, this is a point that we keep coming back to.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:40

But you don't get any of it. You don't get any of the attention. Swearwood.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

It would it would almost be interesting to try and put it up and just see where all of the different notes lie. Because I feel like some feel a bit in front and some feel a bit behind.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

Well, a little bit like Copeland, right? He's constantly pushing the guys with the police. He's just got that feel of urgency and pushing. I guess the same thing's happening here, right? There's there's a fight almost happening on the stage. Yeah. Um probably a little bit of ego, too.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

We're 21-year-old rock stars, you know, in LA. And as we'll talk about on the Appetite episode, they are um really it's a true piece of art in the fact that they are expressing what they are living through.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Some very deep, deep, dark subjects, you know. Right, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

This is the sort of stuff you can't learn at uni.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

No.

SPEAKER_04 37:35

And I mean to be honest, like, especially watching Adler play live, I don't think you can play like this in a l in a lot of places, like even volume-wise. How do you practice to play like that? Like, where are you gonna play? You know, you're gonna have to hire our entire warehouse just to get away with it.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

You're saying that through the lens of our era now though, where there is just nowhere nowhere left to do anything. And I feel like I mean part of the I I had a I had a student once who um said, Oh, I've joined joined the school rock band. And I was like, What's a school rock band? Um and they this is this is a while back, I know that this is even more normal these days. Um and I said, Do you mean you've joined a band with your school friends? And they went, Yeah. And I was like, Oh, alright. Well, why would you call it a school rock band? Because because it's run by Mr. Jeffrey. And I'm like, Who's Mr. Jeffrey? So he's the math teacher. And I eventually put it together that it was actually a rock band put together by the teacher. It's common, like, like, like, I mean, I know it's common now, but this is the first time at the time I'd heard of it. And then I said, Well, what songs are you playing? And they rattled off some like Taylor Swift and stuff like that. And I'm like, wait, how is this a rock band? And and and I I thought about it for a second. I said to the kid, that's not a rock band. And he goes, Yes, it is. And I said, It's not a rock band. Rock bands are designed to piss the teacher off, you know. Rock bands, like rock bands are anti-establishment, you know, they're not put supposed to be put together by the math teacher, right? There's something there's supposed to be something dangerous about them. And we live in this world now where we go and play a gig and someone immediately walks up and says, Can you turn it down? It's a bit loud. Um, can you just TB meters? Yeah. And and and it's the same with rehearsals. Like how I remember rehearsing in a basement once, and I think we got halfway into the first song, and someone was banging on the window. Yeah, you know. But the what do you think would happen if you asked Guns N' Roses to turn down?

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Well, we know what happened when someone tried to take a photo uh in their concert. Axe and jumped out into the crowd and started fighting himself. There you go.

SPEAKER_04 39:34

That's a rock band.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_04 39:36

Can you play quiet rock music?

SPEAKER_03 39:38

Yeah, yeah. I don't think so. No. I mean, maybe that's playing into the stereotypes a bit, but it's true. There's an attitude about rock and roll. Yeah. The other one I had uh rigged up here is um out to get me. Swag. I just went through the album and I just picked out all the bits that I thought really featured as playing.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

That flam anticipation in the end.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Yeah. I'd love to know how much they like him and Duff sat down and planned out those movies, you know? Or or was it all just like did they just play it a thousand times before they got to the studio? And I mean I've been in bands like that where you don't talk about anything. You know, but you play so much that stuff just happens and then it ends up being in there, you know? But this whole album is so cleverly designed, like it's quotes.

SPEAKER_04 40:38

Not in a fancy way, but just in a clever way, right? Yeah, definitely, yeah. Yeah. That's a weird choice to make any way.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Right, it's almost like we have to find another one.

SPEAKER_04 41:04

Losing a mind.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

Can you deny the intention of those vocals alive? No. When I was in my first band when I was 12, we would write in swear words because of Guns N' Roses. And I was the singer and I'd be playing away and I'd go blah blah blah blah blah and then swear and then look over at my my friends and like like all smile.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

And you say that one word twice as loud as the rest of the vocals. Exactly. Totally overstayed.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

But there's not there's not actually a huge amount of swearing on the album, right? Which makes it more badass for me. Because I I feel like if you were constantly swearing, it becomes a bit, it would lose its impact, right? Yeah. So when he does say it, it means something.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Have you got any notes we haven't covered?

SPEAKER_04 41:51

Well, I mean it it is a small sample size, isn't it? There's not a huge body of work. It's just like this tantalizing thing that he's left off with. Yeah. He's done a few other bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

Should we talk about why there's not a whole bunch more? I mean, I was just about to mention that as well, that I'm glad we haven't spent the whole time talking about that. I think that gets focused on a lot and it sucks what he went through. You know, I also listened to an interview actually from about 10 years ago where he talked about how of course he was heartbroken being kicked out of the band, but then he had to watch them go on to become the biggest band in the world. Like it just about drove drove him crazy. You know, how could it not? Yeah. But I f I get frustrated sometimes when every time you bring certain artists up, the sensationalistic stuff gets mentioned. Like people mention Hendrix, someone within about three seconds mentions drugs. Yeah. And I'm like, there's a lot more than that, you know? Santana as well. Right. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if you're about to make a different point, but I'm just kind of glad we didn't spend half an hour talking about addiction.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

I mean it could have been justified, right? Yeah. We weren't there. It's hard to to separate the story. You know, that is I mean, that at the end of the day, that is why there we don't have more of Stevens playing on the albums is because he was fired. And it does seem a little bit ironic, right, when you you you get fired from your band with all of your friends that you're doing the drugs with. Yeah, that's right. But but I mean at the end of the day, I always thought that. You know, and so that must that must have been absolutely heart-wrenching, right? Like like the I'm sure he probably felt a massive amount of betrayal with that, but but you have to be able to perform.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

Yeah. I don't know if Axel was Axel ever was he partaking in all that? No. No. No. No, he was actually subtly aloof, you know, like away from the rest of the band. Yeah. And away.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Yeah, I I I watched a documentary last night about it, and they were talking about how um, you know, he wouldn't really rehearse with the band, he would just kind of like show up, stay in his own hotel room. It was almost like he was a a separate member that would just show up to perform, which is a very odd dynamic.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

It's not uh it's not a recipe for a successful long-term band at all, is it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

No. Yeah. I it's interesting. Maybe we should do one about Axel because like a why does everyone hate one about Axel? Because it's so interesting that I I I don't know if I'd heard that one before, but if your band are all strung out and acting up and all of that, you probably would stay away, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Especially if you're trying to avoid it.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean the other thing about Axel, a different totally different subject, but he was creatively trying to get into new territory, which is why he did November Rain and brought in string sections and things like that. And apparently all the rest of the guys hated it because they thought they were like we're a rock and roll band. We don't have orch like, you know, cellos.

SPEAKER_04 44:46

I don't think of the I mean this sound here, I don't think it translates into that for me.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

No, I I agree that Appetite was like the perfect rock album for the time. For the time. But I also defend like we were saying about Metallica, I I I defend the artistic process. Oh, absolutely. If you stay st if they tried to remake Appetite, it would have been awful. Yeah. You know, they'd already done it. Yeah, they're already done it, yeah. So I don't know. I I think Axel gets a lot of um unwarranted grief because he was trying to he was obviously guilty for a lot and had a lot of his own problems, but he was also trying to operate in a completely unreasonable environment.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

There are a lot of other things that where he wouldn't turn up on time. Oh yeah, that's it. So there is all that side of it as well. Yeah. Which I mean, if I've paid five hundred dollars to see them and he's not even there. Yeah. And I mean things would happen like the band would just be literally jamming on stage. Because it's like, guys, you've got to start playing.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

Right.

SPEAKER_04 45:50

Like, we're finishing in half an hour.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:52

And like they would just, you know, sort of, you know, have a bit of a jam. It's like, this is not Guns N' Roses. That's not defendable for me. No, no, and I'm not defendable. No, no, yeah, yeah, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

I heard an interview with uh Sebastian Bach and he was saying about how Skid Row it was he was Skid Row, isn't it? That's right, yeah. They were um opening for Guns N' Roses at one of the sets, and the the stage manager just kept telling, you know, play more, play more, play more. He's like, we've only got two albums, like we have no more, we've played everything we have. Where the fuck is Axel?

SPEAKER_03 46:24

It's funny because we're coming into rap now, and I I just realised we forgot to talk about one of the most important parts, which was how the band changed sounds when they went to Matt Sorum and how they lost their swagger and how as he famously said they went from being a rock and roll band to a metal band. Um and I think it was on the Metallica episode we were talking about right drummer for the right drop job in terms of you know Josh Freeze, for example, in the foos and whatever. Uh was that this episode or the other one?

unknown 46:51

I can't remember.

SPEAKER_03 46:52

But um yeah, Laz, yeah. But um I and I I I just want to touch on it basically because Matt Sorum is such a great drummer, and I I went out of my way to go and listen to like live uh the cult firewoman with him, and then I went and watched Velvet Revolver, and I thought, yeah, he's great, you know. I just don't know if he was the guy that should have filled Adler's shoes.

SPEAKER_04 47:15

But are we looking at it through an appetite for destruction lens and not a holistic all of these difficult arrangements and and very technical drum parts that Adler might not have been suited to at all, you know?

SPEAKER_03 47:28

Um I don't know. I don't know. But I mean do you mean like if Adler had been like still on game, he wouldn't have been able to cut it doing possible of the Usi Illusion albums?

SPEAKER_04 47:38

Possibly. I mean there could have been a situation where they just start getting frustrated, right? That or or the the band's not even into it. Like, yeah, what is this? You know, and this is Axel's vision now. And um Well, that's obviously is what happened. Yeah, yeah, very much was that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I think without disrespecting anyone that followed, I I actually just lost interest in the band after this album. Um Lies is a flawed album. Well Lies was wasn't that recorded earlier and then released later something? The first it's a it's a really weird album. The first half is faux live performances. That's right. Which sound live but they're not. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_03 48:18

No, yeah, no, it's all it's all like canned audience stuff. Yeah, yeah. And then didn't they release that? I think it was after.

SPEAKER_04 48:25

It was after, but that was recorded before, yeah, but released after. And then the acoustic stuff was recorded after Appetite, after touring. Right.

SPEAKER_03 48:35

And it was like to keep interest or something. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:37

And Axel said he's like my vocals are shot. Right. On the on the acoustic side. Yeah. Which was he said like you know, patience, which was a huge hit. Yeah, it's a good charm. Yeah, he says like my vocals were just gone. Right. From touring. You know, his style.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

But it became the charm of it.

SPEAKER_04 48:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it worked, eh? Like it had that country acoustic campfire.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

Yeah. Well, we want to know what everyone else thinks about this. Is this a is this a controversial one? I feel like this has been a bit of a l a love fest, which is fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

I think we are kind of avoiding some of the controversial stuff though, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:13

Which ones?

SPEAKER_01 49:13

The drugs? Yeah. Oh, I I mean that that that is the biggest hit on Steven and his career. I mean, outside of that, a lot of his playing, like, from what I've seen, everyone loved his playing. A lot of people liked him as a person. It was just couldn't get a shit together.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

I think I think a lot of people would possibly overlook his playing. He's quite I I see him as a little bit like a session guy in that he's almost invisible in the track. Right. Like it's so perfect and indistinguishable from the rest of the sound that it it's just there. It is the sound. Which to me is perfection. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:44

I feel that way about Izzy too.

SPEAKER_04 49:46

Yeah. But I think a lot of people could see that as oh, he's not very impressive, he's not blowing me away. Um, there's no fireworks particularly. Maybe at the double time Paradise City at the end.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:57

You know, when it starts really um speeding up and going crazy.

SPEAKER_03 50:02

That's funny because there are other dramas out there that are really highly celebrated that I just don't get.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Okay, ooh, that's a topic.

SPEAKER_03 50:08

Yeah. But um, I mean I would get assassinated if I started.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

Well, I I had a bit of a look and Josh Frees uh was in Guns N' Roses for five minutes. Was he?

SPEAKER_03 50:18

Yeah, at the uh the democracy era.

SPEAKER_04 50:21

He never played live. Right. He was in the band for like two years, never played live, never recorded.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

Yeah. I did know that actually.

SPEAKER_04 50:28

They recorded a whole bunch of stuff with him on drums and then wiped it all.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

I mean, and this is Josh Fries. You know about the Chinese democracy album, right? That took them so long to make and so on.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Roughly, but I don't know the details.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

Yeah, maybe that's an episode. It's uh how long did it take to make that one? Like ten years or something? Oh god. Everyone else had gone, it was Axel's thing by then. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:50

But with the drums, who was the do you remember who the drummer was who ended up being on the island? Was it Brain? I can't remember now. Whoever it was, so Josh Freeze is obviously a few. Maybe. He's obviously an amazing drummer. Yeah. And they workshopped the songs. He even worked guitar parts with them. Right. And this was years and years and years. Then he got fired or let go, took away all his drum parts, then the new drummer re-recorded his drum parts note for note in I don't know, a couple of weeks, and that was it. Which is such a bonkers thing to do, right? But he is on record, Freeze is on record as saying like appetite, the drum parts are so special that he can't recreate them. Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:36

And he doesn't think Adler could even recreate it. Right. It was just a snapshot in time.

SPEAKER_03 51:42

I forgot to say on the last one you were on that people should go and check out the uh the your YouTube channel, Andrew Rooney Drums. Oh, it's amazing. That's fantastic. Agreed. Um it's a React channel, right? Where you spend most of the I I've I've been working on my impression of you. Oh, you watch the video and you go, oh I like it. Yeah. Uh Andrew Rooneydrums.com and um you also had the New Zealand Drummer podcast for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So people should people should check you out. I'm curious to know from you how did you do your call to actions?

SPEAKER_04 52:17

On the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 52:18

On anything. Do you do call to actions? Because we're we're you know, we're doing if you're enjoying the show, then leave a review on Apple Podcast and tell a friend and the house is Chrome. Really appreciate it. Um and I'm aware of the fact that you know people kind of roll their eyes or press skip and things like that. I mean, we obviously desperately need you know people to engage, and we also genuinely want to hear comments and thoughts about the stuff we're talking about. Like if people think we've totally missed the boat on something, we want to hear from them. Let us know. Yeah, but I mean I also want to figure out how to how to uh have that conversation with the audience without it constantly feeling like we're going into infomercial mode. So how how do you do it, Rooney?

SPEAKER_04 52:55

You're I think the way you guys do it live is amazing. Yeah. Like that's and I mean playing has added a whole new dimension to the podcast. I in my opinion. Because it it just reinforces, subtly sort of reinforces. Oh, he does play guitar. You know? Um, so that's super cool. Um yeah, you're putting me on the spot here. I think Do you do that on your on your React videos?

SPEAKER_03 53:19

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SPEAKER_04 53:22

Click the bell and yeah, I do occasionally. I I'll change it up. I will change it up. I will just mention, you know, that you can pick up my Dromeo free trial. Uh you know, that was smooth. It's free. Like it. 30-day free trial. And you know what's weird is if you go to the Dromeo website, you only get seven days free. But if you go through my link, you get 30 days. We're watching a master take notes.

SPEAKER_03 53:47

I I was I was pretty impressed with myself that I brought it up and framed it as a question. Danny, but um there's many things in life that are free. You out you outmastered me. So what what have we learned today, Mike? You're the you're the greenest one on the Atlas subject, so have we taught you anything?

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Yeah, I mean I don't know if I would say like I have a real clear takeaway, other than there's very clearly something subjective around the feel of a drummer playing in that pocket that I'd never really thought about as a, you know, I'm I'm not a I'm not a drummer. Um I noticed that with guitarists. Whenever I try and play someone else's part note for note, it always feels like bad karaoke. And for whatever reason, I didn't think or I never really thought that that might translate to drumming as well.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

But very clearly it does, you know, like it's you've got these incredible, um, very high-level drummers playing stuff, and you know, like you're saying, it doesn't really have that same feel that it had an appetite. So what is that, you know, what is that little that extra two percent or that lightning in a bottle? What is it that actually makes it special?

SPEAKER_03 54:52

I don't know if I have a summary, um, I think that's great. I don't know if I have anything particularly intelligent to add, but uh what I think people can do if they're interested is is get any band that has um got live footage of uh from different tours of the same song with different members. Yeah. You know, if they've changed members here and there. I did that in A B them. It's fascinating, right? I did that um yesterday. Well, with with guns? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:15

Well, I was thinking about that night train clip because you mentioned that it was it was it's very lo-fi, obviously, and it's it's iPhone, but that's so revealing and raw. And then I watched some more recent guns and oh they've got a keyboardist now? Guns they've had one for a while. Okay, yeah, um, and female vocals, so it's a very different um whole concept now. But yeah, I mean it's it's it's not there like it was, you know. No. Um and that's again not degrading Maybe it couldn't be.

SPEAKER_03 55:47

Maybe you have to be a desperate young, you know, junkie to get that sound.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

That authenticity. You gotta dance with Mr. Brownstone. Don't do that, by the way. I'm not advocating for that. Mike said do drugs. Cancel.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Yeah. Did you learn anything, Rooney?

SPEAKER_04 56:06

Um, I probably didn't maybe I did. I I feel like I I feel like I cannot get across how unique and special his contribution to the album is. Like, if we if we took take away the drums and re-record them, you it's you don't get this album. Right. Um so yeah, I would put I would compare him probably closest to Phil Rudd as being simple mostly simple, um, but just just perfect.

SPEAKER_03 56:41

Now I want to talk for another 15 minutes. I'm still coming back to this. Well, he deserves it too, but the but the simple thing, like compared to what, tall? I mean, they're a rock and roll band, right? Yeah, I don't know if he was simple in the context of rock and roll.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

But I think uh when you look at some of the bands that have come after, you know, they've everyone always sort of takes the ball and goes a little bit further with it. Absolutely. And I think quite often we forget that we're talking about the guys that sort of started some of this stuff, right? So yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:09

And let's differentiate simple from easy. Yeah. So we hear that-da-da da-da-ga. Simple. We can write that down and we can clearly hear he's going da-da-da-da-da-ga-t da-da-ga-da-da-ga. But is that easy to play like that? Right. And then to come out into the halftime and then to go back into the da-da-gat, and you know, nothing's really changed, and the band's just it's just this marauding monster growing in intensity. So, yeah. I simple might sound derogatory, but I don't mean it in that way. So we've got a variety of uh instruments here.

SPEAKER_03 57:44

We've got this thing. We've got a shaker, we've got some bongos, and you're you're gonna set us up a groove for our play out. Don't forget the don't forget the tambourine.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

There's only so many things I can stick between my legs. Should we?

SPEAKER_03 58:00

That's what she said. He was waiting for it.

SPEAKER_04 58:05

This is gonna fall out. If it falls, just carry on. This episode was brought to you by Auckland Guitar Lessons. Head to Aucklandguitarlessons.co dot nz or email info at aucklandguitarlessons.co dot nz to find out more.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

Thanks for coming, Rooney. Thank you. Thank you. Love you.