15. Fav Guitarists vs Fav Drummers

Mike's off chasing moose and drinking maple syrup in Canada, eh? So this week, drummer Rooney brings in some of his favourite guitarists, while guitarist Danny returns the favour with some of his favourite drummers. Together they dig into what actually makes a great drummer, and a great guitarist, while spinning some of their favourite tracks along the way.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Good coffee. Oh yeah, just made, freshly made. Gotta do it. Now what is this nonsense you're saying that you can't keep up with my cold opens? My cold opens are chaotic gibberish.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Well we all know that my uh when it's been thrown to me to actually open the episodes, it's uh you default to oh yeah. It's been a train wreck. So then I just gotta go full radio. Do we need to talk about why Mike's been fired?

SPEAKER_03 0:41

I mean it's sensitive information. It's not his fault that he got that disease.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

It's really risky. We're playing with fire now. I mean it was down to his behaviour, I guess, but and what we found on his computer.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Yeah, exactly. Hunter Biden's computer is nothing. Yeah. Mike is on a big long trip back home. Uh he is spending a month back in Canadia. And yes, there you go. Good. Cost him about $35,000 for plane tickets.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

This is the current situation.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

You know, but uh they had a friend's wedding to attend and family to see and things like that. So we're now hijacking the podcast without him.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Wow. My plan is coming to fruition.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

And the conceit of today is that you're a drummer, I'm a guitar player. That's not a conceit, but that's uh that's true. But the conceit of today is that you're talking about some of your standout guitarists, some of your favourite guitarists, and I'm talking about some of my favourite drummers. We don't know who each other has picked, and uh we're we're not pulling punches, right? I mean, if you suggest some someone that I don't like, I'm gonna tell you I don't like them, and vice versa.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Oh, absolutely. I'd love that. Yeah. Umite show? What's the point in polite? No, no, no. I I think um I think there's gonna be a few surprises back and forth. Yeah. Uh which is part of the fun for us and hopefully, hopefully the listener. So this is all off the cuff.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

And what we've decided in the lead up is that we're gonna have to make a multi-part episode, a running theme on this one, because we have to kind of narrow it down to about five or six each. Which is impossible. It's just impossible. I mean, my draft list was 30. And I'd still missed off lots of obvious ones.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yeah, I really when we were talking about this, I had to really chisel down and say it was almost who represents styles for me, as opposed to my favourite. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

I kind of went the other way. Okay in terms of like I know there are iconic drummers who are really important that are sort of obvious people to mention, but they they're not necessarily at the top of my list. As much as I love and respect and admire them, I kind of went for drummers who had like moved me personally. Right. That I more of a connection with as a fan.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

It's interesting, even there, even when we establish the topic, we still go off in our own little Yeah, we screw it up still. Yeah, yeah. Very, very cool. And this, I mean, before we get into it, this has been really interesting, just on a personal level. Actually looking at this, you know, getting it on paper and actually looking at it from the outside and go, there's a real theme coming up here.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

And well, I I would actually find it harder to do guitar players, I think. Yeah. I might I mean I'm I'm fine with drummers. I know all the drummers I like. But guitar players, it's probably there's probably like four or five that stand that are in my mind as like the big dogs for me. Right. And then the rest of them I'm like, eh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

We should still do that as well. What? The ones that I like.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Yeah, your favourite guitarists. When? Today, or another time. Another time. Right, okay. Yeah, it'd be a short episode. Five minute episode. I'm a weird guitarist like that. I I just I find guitar culture a bit tedious. And I'm exactly the same. Really? Without drums, obviously, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I I don't know. I just I mean, my s the thing I started with in music was liking music and liking the songs and liking the the bigger picture. I didn't just want to be a guitarist, I wanted to be in a band and be part of the whole ensemble. And yeah, so that's always been I've I've always been in love with all the instruments, and guitar was just the one I chose.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Yeah. Hey, one thing for you, just before we sort of get going here, do you look at these drummers and do you look at drummers in general as in what it would be like to play with that person? Like you think, oh my god, imagine having that guy in the band or that girl in the band. Um is do you are you thinking of it like that or just this is just a beautiful piece of music?

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Um yeah, it's a good question. Because I think because I was gonna also ask you, like, when you've run bands and been part of the decision making on who's being brought in, like when you're hiring a guitarist, let's say, what are you looking for? And that's maybe the better way to answer the question from my point of view, from my point of view as well.

SPEAKER_04 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

Um and I think there are drummers you can admire because of their technical ability, but at the end of the day, I want someone who's really gonna play for the song, which I know is a bit of a cheesy line, but it's really important to me. Um, and I want somebody who's gonna respond. Like to me, there's there should always be an element of improvisation. Wow. Someone who's listening and responding. Even if you're playing the most well-constructed and well-planned piece of music, there might just be one little phrase that someone starts laying down that you you want everyone to be there with you and really listening and responding to it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

And we all know those players who seem to always play the right note and make the right decision, and it's just like, oh how do they do that?

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Exactly. I would never have thought of that. Exactly. Yeah. So when I listen to the drummers I love, I mean, yeah, of course there are moments where they're technically incredible, and I'm gonna bring a couple of them up today. But yeah, for me, overall, um, how does it serve the bigger picture is how I look at it. I think we're aligned on that. And also when you're actually hiring someone, like, can you work with them?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

Yeah, can you work with the work with the work with the work with the work?

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Which doesn't so much apply to this episode. Um I'm assuming none of the players here we've actually played with. No. So um one of them I've met. Oh, cool. I look forward to hearing about that. I'm really trying not to peek over at your notes because this is genuinely interesting for me. One of them I've met and one of them I haven't met, but I've seen on a s on a Zoom call.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

Oh, I know who that is. Yeah, I know I mentioned it before. But that's also not giving much away because you know I'm gonna select him. Yeah, love it. Do we do we dive right in? Let's get into it, yeah. So I've shortened my list down to six, and I know you've got five, so I figure I'll I'll go first. Sure. Ah. I chose this one not so much because I know much about the drummer, but because this song was really big for me. Joe Morallo. Yep. Yeah. Like this opened a lot of doors for me when I first heard it. It was sort of my access into a whole corner of music I hadn't gotten into yet. Right. And pretty groundbreaking song.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Right, yeah. It's a very successful song in in jazz terms, you know, quite a big hit. Yep. Um, and obviously playing in five. Unusual.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Yeah, well, I I remember really thinking about the fact that it's melody driven and that you don't have to know it's in five to like it. Which I think is one of the ideas, isn't it? Odd time played well shouldn't feel odd. Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

This this is a song that I've used in the past uh to introduce, I guess, more advanced students to 5.4. Like a very clear, beautiful, you know, you can put it on, you can clearly hear. Yeah, this is 5'4, and you can follow along.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Yeah. Now, how would you differentiate whether this is 5.4 or 5'8? Apart from just how it's written down.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Well, in terms of jazz comp in, it's made up of a quarter note and two eighth notes with a triplet, you know, that little bounce. So we instinctively know, other than the phrasing of the song, we instinctively know that one's a quarter note and one's a swung eight. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Is that does that answer the question?

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Well, kind of, but it's a. I mean, if it was written down as a 5'8, then we're just saying that the beats are quavers, so what difference does it make? Is there anything in the groove here that's informing that it must be 5.4?

SPEAKER_02 8:31

I think it it also logically sits in a certain BPM range. Okay. That.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

See, I would have thought that was like one, two, three, four, five. I would have thought that was up there.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

No. That that's very military medium for jazz.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Huh.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Fair enough. Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

It's a bit of a fluffy area though, isn't it, sometimes? Yep. Yeah. Deciding. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Sometimes I think it literally just comes down to who wrote the chart. I've seen jazz standards notated um uh time signature-wise differently. Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting drum solo. Listen to that ride work. Yeah. No chops, right? It's very minimal. I mean, that's there's chops in there, but no, but it's not like speed and head stance. No. Listen how much space he leaves, too. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Repetitive motifs. Putting those kicks in really surprising places. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

How much repetition?

SPEAKER_03 9:32

That's right, setting up like melodies, effectively. Yeah, and then developing the motif that he sets up. Would you argue that at this point in the song he's not the drummer, but that amazingly solid piano is the drummer? Rubik. I mean, that's so solid. Yeah, it is. And that gives the that gives Morello the ch the opportunity to move like that, right? Yeah. We call this soloing over a vamp.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Yep. People. All the people at home. Vamp. Yeah. Uh bit of terminology. I don't know. People actually quite enjoy terminology, so it's alright to throw some terminology in on this one. That's right. As opposed to not soloing over a vamp with a there's no piano or bass. And it's just a drum solo. Yeah. But this song, I don't know, I can't imagine that with this song. Imagine trying to follow a 5-4 drum solo.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

It would also just feel meaningless, I think. If it was literally just drums right now. That'd be clever, but it'd be like, what's going on? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

I love how it sets a bassine reference point for the solo and everything's sort of bouncing off the off the piano.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

One thing I love about jazz is how they take their time setting it up.

unknown 10:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

They don't rush into it. There was an interview with Brantford Marcellus when he was in Stings Band, and he was saying one of the challenges was having like a an eight-bar solo. And an eight-bar solo you have to get in and set up your theme and get out. Yeah. Where he said in his normal world of jazz, he had to take 25 minutes to kind of sort of find something, develop it, get there, build it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

I find the same with movies.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Older movies really do a lot of character development. Um they really set the scene and sometimes at a tailed pace. Yeah. But I personally really like well, if it's a good movie. Yeah. I love that. As opposed to, you know, we've got big explosions and buildings are falling over in the first five minutes, you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Yeah, I've been going back and watching movies I missed. Like I last year I watched Dog Day Afternoon for the first time, that made a Pacino film. Incredible. Yeah. And I feel like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is of that ethic. That sort of slow burn with the crazy ending, but the whole thing's like a slow burn. Yeah. And it's the I remember like I've watched that three times already. I love that movie. Um but I remember at the time thinking you just gotta go for the ride, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

What a risky role too, Dog the Afternoon, you know? Like these are sort of the anti-hero 70s sort of archetypes, aren't they?

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Do you know that famous scene where um he's screaming Attica? That was improvised.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Yeah. He was um they were doing some kind of crowd work or something, they were trying to rile them up or something. And that what they weren't really actually shooting yet. And so Pacino sort of took upon himself to to go and rack up the crowd to screaming Attica, and um they were they rolled film and that it was right in the moment, which is one of the reasons why it's so organic and explosive, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

I think Pacino and De Niro I mean, they're they're sort of interlinked for me, sort of similar genres a lot of the time. But you need to go back to their older work, eh? Like they've sort of become sort of characters covers bands of themselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

A little bit, eh.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

And then but when you go back and you go, oh that's why they're so famous and talked about.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

I I always think that too. It's not very fair on them in a s in some ways because you know, it's just so hard to keep that going for. And they're older gentlemen, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Doing comedies and branching out.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

But bands do that as well. Yeah, they kind of find their thing and then they repeat and repeat and repeat, you know. That's why I really admire bands that look for new stuff and often alienate their audiences by doing it, but yeah, but it's like they're not they're determined to not not corner themselves.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Yeah. I mean De Niro and Pacino, they could just be gangster characters forever and get paid very well for it.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

In De Niro's defense though, he did switch into comedy uh uh 25 years ago with Meet the Fockers and all that stuff. Yeah. Um and that great movie um uh with Matthew Perry. Well that was he was still playing a gangster, but like he had not really done comedy apart from like he did Kango comedy in early 80s, but yeah, but that was a big, like drastic, yeah, surprising left turn for him that you know seemed to work. Very risky. Yeah. Okay, anyway, why are we talking about movies? Because I brought it up because I have no focus and it's write it down, it's another episode. Early on Sunday morning, and I'm only part way through my second coffee.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Oh, this coffee's really good, by the way. I take my percolator very seriously. Okay, what do we got here? My my selection.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Oh, nice. You don't know? No, not yet.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

I won't say anything.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

It's not George Benson? No. Freatless base, give it away. So it's Jacko. Or Jacko. That's apparently the right. Yeah. I don't know who played with Jacko. Was it would it be John McLaughlin? No. Is that weather report? We're in the same world, yeah, same era. I don't know if I'm gonna guess this one.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Pat Matheny.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Oh right. Yeah, I don't know much about Pat Matheny. Okay. I know he's great.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Yeah, yeah. So this is 1975, which to start with blows me away. Uh Songs Bright Size Life. Uh-huh. Off the same titled album. 1975. Right. That still sounds pretty modern, right? In some ways that sounds better.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

This was completely thrown together. He was uh 21. Gee. I mean 21. Jaco was 24.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Um, they're over in Europe. Um, and this is before Jaco joined Weather Report, and they essentially had a bit of spare studio time amongst doing other stuff. He didn't have any of his gear. So they'd just literally turn up, hey, we've got a few hours, and they whipped out this album. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

Do you know much about his history? Pat?

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Not a lot, no. Like uh, you know, where did he get it from? I mean, he obviously played a lot.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

I believe he started out as a bit of a Wes Montgomery clone and did that thing of being a quite derivative, and then totally took a left turn and was like, you know what, I'm gonna just be myself. He was already on the um lecturing stuff at uh Berkeley, I think, at this point. Oh right. So he was a heavy cat. 21. But I'll I'll shut up for a second. And I'll be I'd love to hear your thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Yeah, because the same way that I just have a bit of an eye roll generally to shredders, there are guitarists that you wouldn't think of as shredders necessarily, who are always, s as far as I know, sort of doing just technical stuff. Yeah. And it's always like, oh yeah, I'm cool. It's not that I don't like it or don't admire it, it just doesn't ever grab me.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

Um and I've probably thrown him in that bucket a bit. Pat Matheny. Yeah, like knowing he's really good, but just like, oh yeah, every time I've seen anything, he's just been sort of blowing around the fretboard. But this is lovely. Like this is very sensitive playing. Oh, this is like a magic trick. Maybe I've just seen like YouTube clips or or social media clips of more t more uh clickbaity moments and not giving him a proper chance.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

I think one thing, like, you know how jazz can be quite hard to um what's the word? The the barrier to get into it is quite high. Uh it's it's not immediately gonna be nice and soulful to a lot of people. But it's just the freedom. Right. Like, there's just a certain amount of freedom. I mean, what are the what on earth are the drums doing?

unknown 17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Like, there is no groove, there's no backbeat, there's no It's colour.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yeah, I have a theory that I don't know I don't know if you'll agree, but my anyway, my theory is that early jazz started off being very, very closely aligned with blues. That jazz was sort of just more, slightly more elaborate blues. Yeah. And then as it went into the 50s and 60s, it kind of expanded and they were experimenting with funny chords and notes and key changes, and that they would be, you know, pushing the walls around in terms of how much of the structure they give away to the audience rhythmically. Yeah. Things like that. They don't always play the one or whatever. Um, and it it's like they're experimenting in the in the best way. It's a good it's a good thing. And they're they're pushing all the boundaries out, and they eventually get to free jazz in the late 60s, where now it's like they pushed all the walls out, now the whole thing falls apart. And I think that they knew that, which is I think why they responded by doing like Herbie went and did the headhunters and things like that. Like I think they were like, okay, we've sort of taken the piss a bit now, let's get back to like pocket and melody. And they all did that. Like her like I say, Herbie did the headhunters, and Miles changed tact, and into the early 70s, then funk blew up. Yeah, you know, so do you do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_02 18:57

I mean, that's a very kind of simplified overview, but I think the the big dogs in that scene loved pushing the boundaries and not being popular. So now now that like when Bebop blew up in like 40s and 50s, it was like it became uncool. Right. Like, oh we don't want to be playing that smack anymore. Yeah. And then I was like, let's play no note. So part of the part of the flex was how many scales and modes do we know over this uh over these chords and how fast can we do it?

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the spot. But the difference with that though is that even though you're saying the drummer's not like really laying down the groove, um um who is a drummer by the way? Oh, you've caught me there. It's Bob Moses. I'll double check it. Bob Moses. Okay, so it's just a trio. Yeah. So even though he's not laying down the groove in an obvious way, it's no backbeat or whatever. Um, you can feel it. Like collectively, they're still putting the groove down. I think I think the free jazz was the experiment was when that bit got lost. Right. When it when the groove was no longer implied, it was now just kind of nonsense. Yeah, yeah. Although I think it was still necessary that they that they did that, they had to find out where the breaking point was. Um but yeah, it's interesting you say that uh about their attitudes because Herbie famously went to his band and said, Right, now I want to do a different thing, I want to lay down these funk pockets and stuff, and they all refused, so he fired everybody and replaced his whole band. That was his only way to innovate was to literally, you know, clean slate.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

There are there are a couple of these guys who had a real commercial sensibility as well and wanted to make some money. Right. And I've got nothing against that, you know. Why would you? George Benson was one who um is a phenomenal jazz guitarist. Yeah. But he's like, hey, I want to make some money too. Yeah. And he was all about the hits, man. Yeah. But we might be going there.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Interesting that our both of our first selections were jazz.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Mine are gonna be a little bit over the map from here, but we'll Yeah, well, I don't think you're gonna know this next one of my choice.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

So let's see what this is.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Pretty obscure.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Even playing hi-hat? No. Because he literally just don't kick snare.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Who else gets away with that, eh? I'll play a little bit more of this, and then I've actually got the drums isolated now so we can hear how little he's doing. This this song is notable on so many levels. I mean, like Paul McCartney's bass playing is out of control. He is playing like the busiest part, and it in no way causes any problems. Yeah, or because the drummer's not playing anything. But it's like so many notes, he could be getting right in the way of the vocalist, and you know, but there's so much space in this. It's almost like the bass is leaving it, because everything else is so spacious.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

We were talking uh I think before we started rolling today about some musicians always choose the right notes. Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Ringo. Absolutely. We plan to do a whole episode about Ringo soon.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

But and I d again I don't know if we're rolling for this, but but we're talking about uh you're talking about guitar culture and yeah, drum culture, and everybody loves look how fast he is in this. This would be completely lost absolutely on so many people. And I see it in the in the comments and and in groups and forums and stuff, people just ripping into Ringo. Oh I could do that, any kid could do that, and like have you seen what Mike Bangini can do? Like, and it's like I think you're missing the point.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Yeah. I feel like people just don't think for themselves. On so many issues, they just they just say what their group says.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

Whether it's music or politics or whatever, they're just like, oh blah blah blah blah. They just you know what I mean? They just say whatever their friends said. But uh now let's listen to some of the isolated track. It's not the best quality, but you'll hear what he's doing.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Snare sounds either very muted or tuned way down and muted.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

There's a bit of choking there in the gating or whatever they're using, eh, as well. It's kind of taking the sides off a bit.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

He sometimes put like um cloth or sort of tea I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Tea towel sort of material over his drums, I think. When he went to the double kicks just then, because he had been doing so little before, it felt like a step up. Yeah. I'm curious to know how many drummers would ever consider not using their hi-hat for a section like that. It's such a standard way to play, you know, just to have that hi-hat going. The same way it takes some effort sometimes to get piano players to stop using their left hand. Yeah. We've got a bass player, stop being the bass player.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

I would like to see him playing this to see if he's still keeping time with his hi-hat hand. Oh, like in the air. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So if I was playing this, which I've done uh many a time, I've played um maybe a verse of a song and taken the hi-adds completely out. By the way, listen to this bit that's coming into dynamics.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Right there with the phrasing of the song, back in. See, it's so supportive of the song. This is this is where the emotion of the song's going right now. That's not a case of like, look what I can do. No. It's a case of like this is where we're going, you know?

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Oh, there we go. Connective tissue. Ride symbol. That must be where the guitar solo is, I think.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

What a beautiful ride sound. I mean, anyone that's listening to this and thinks he's a rubbish drummer is just like that. It's impeccable. It's impeccable. And is there there's no editing here.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Even then, I've um Oh. I don't remember that bit. But even Chops-wise, like, he he had um incredible chops. Especially for the era. Yeah. That sounds a little bit um like a minimizing him, but but he had he's he's a fantastic drummer.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

Well what I also find interesting, especially given how much uh crap he gets, is that uh it's almost like every Beatles song had a unique identity in its group. Yeah. He wasn't like a lot of other drummers, and it's not even a criticism, because it's kind of just what you do, but a lot of drummers are pretty much just playing the standard beat the whole time. Um and yet Ringo seemed to just not think like that. He didn't template it.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

And in drumming, when it comes to fills, and especially when you're learning drums, it's often seen as okay, now let's learn fills. Right. And you learn a whole bunch of fill vocab.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

It's like guitarist learning blueslicks.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

And you will see, oh my god, you'll see people and they'll post it on social media like it's a big flex, like, check out this crazy fill. Oh, I screwed up the band on this one, like, and it's this big like triplet thing, and it's a million miles an hour, and we're doing linear, and we've got this is in there, and then I've um displaced it and I've done this and that. It's like, yeah, but it doesn't sound good. No, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

And hey, this is a Motown song.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

We don't need that.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

I heard Vinnie Carliuta make an interesting point once where he said he'll go and work on something, like a clever fill or whatever, yeah, um, or a particular groove or something technical, and he'll go and shed it and shed it and shed it. And then he said he very specifically bans himself from ever trying to use it. Yeah. Because he said if he tries to use it intellectually, like I'm gonna try that thing now, it will probably not suit the moment, it'll land clunky, it'll put him back in his head. I I think he's also the guy who's famous as saying thought is the enemy of flow. Yeah. So he said he just sort of he'll just work on it, get it in into the subconscious, and then let it go. And he said, Sometimes two years later it'll just fall out somewhere. And he goes, Oh, there's that thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Well, that's an incredible level of discipline.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

I I I feel like I've finally started to learn that in my own playing, yeah, and I've been playing for 35 years.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Yeah. And a a lot with uh pre-planned licks, they generally only sound good at at the tempo that they sound good at.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

You know? Interesting, yeah. So that means they'll need some renovation or some m a little bit of movement in context, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Yeah, you see this a lot with people playing live, yeah, and and they've got this lick that they've got, let's say it's a 30-second note, linear lick, and at 93.5 BPM, it sounds amazing, man. And it will just melt your face. But we're playing at 88 BPM at the gig, and it's like, oh shit, is this gonna uh no, it didn't work. Because you know, you know how you've got to get everything to 150% to get it to 100%. I think we've talked about this before.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Yeah, we have.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Things go wrong. Maybe your monitors are not quite in tune, maybe the tempo is a little bit funky, maybe the bass basis is giving you stink eye and saying, hey bro, just tone it down. You know, like things can go wrong.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

But I wonder if it's also that the the fill you've worked on is based on certain phrasing or whatever at that tempo. So f fit let's say fitting that number of plays into that beat structure at that slower tempo is fine, but now you're at you know 30 VPM higher. If you're in a flow state, then without even consciously thinking of it, you're just not gonna play all the same notes. Right. You're gonna probably just naturally strip it out and just have the the idea of it. Yeah, would that be right?

SPEAKER_02 29:11

That's yeah, totally. And the other thing that people don't uh seem to uh get is your technique changes.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

So if you're playing at different speeds, you're actually using a different technique. So if you try and do the same thing, but 30 BPM slower or faster, it might you might literally not be able to do it. So you're talking about things like height of the sticks? Yeah, um, and I mean your foot. There's a lot of mechanical things that are happening on drums, and you'll hear a lot of people saying, Oh, this is the best technique, you've got to learn this technique, you've got to do this technique. Yeah. But you need all the techniques because not everything is a one tempo.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Well, that's right, and and on on the guitar you adjust the the height of your strum to match the drum. Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Um, which is something I'd already always done, but it was actually a drummer I know who um who teaches who told me about how he taught the the height of the stick off the snare. How how you know how much you lift it up and he had to tell people to have the same point you lift it up to um as a way of getting consistency of when you get back to the snare.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

And I remember thinking like, oh, that's basically the same mechanics as strumming. It's a bit like a pendulum, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if you've got that going, it's it's like half the battle's won.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Yeah, if you have to get up and then stop for a microsecond to get down, yeah. Your groove's gone if you do that.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Now it's gonna be Steve Vi. Oh crap, I don't think I know it again. See, I'm just not a guitar nerd. I'll I'll keep quiet for a bit and let you. Do you think it's gonna come to me?

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Maybe. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

It's a very famous guitarist. Is it um what's his face? Um his name's gone right in my head, but the the um the get lucky guy. Yeah, yeah. What's his name again? Niall Rogers. Nile Rogers, of course. So this is Sheik? Because he basically invented the style of funk, didn't he?

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Yeah, yeah. So this is Sheik, uh 1982. Yep. Soup for one. You might recognise it. It was sampled uh by Mojo. Okay. Leader. Oh yeah, yeah. Um, I mean this what a groove. The bass. The bass is just so killer. Yeah. It's actually the bassist doing lead vocals on this song.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

So much space in the bass, which makes it work so well.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

I don't know if we've got time to go through the whole song here, but uh he takes what I guess you could call as a solo, but it's almost like an anti-solo. I just love it, it's just so such a statement.

unknown 32:01

You have it looking at the biggest.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

Speak. Yep, quiet. Speak. But there's so much attitude in it as well, and rhythmically it's bang on. I feel like that's the thing guitarists don't talk about enough, is rhythm. Oh. And and rhythm is not just about accuracy, it's it's it's the thing that levels you up and to really be able to speak properly as a guitar player. Like that is right on, you know? That's that's playing with intent, that's playing with attitude, and that's with like doubled down with control. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Again, taking taking time with the structure of the song, right? Yeah. Those days have gone. Those days are gone. Well, this would be a throwaway section. That little you know, that little bridge part here, it'll be like, oh, cut that out, let's get back to the chorus. Right, you know, don't bore us, get to the chorus.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

It's not it's not mine.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

So are you a Nile Rogers fan or are you?

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Not that I have a collection of his stuff or anything. Oh yeah. Here it is. Ugh. Because he's probably like Hendrix in a way that he informed generations of players. Oh yeah. So the the two early artists for me were Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson when I was super young. And one of the things I loved about both of them is that funk guitar, that palm muted single-string funk guitar. Beautiful. And I didn't know for a long time that that largely came from Noel Rogers. Probably not only Noel Rogers, but but I've always loved that funk guitar thing. Any opportunity to do it, I do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Um I think from here it's it just plays out. Yeah. You get the idea. We can fade it. So Sheik, if people don't know Sheik, um they backed a lot of people as well. Yeah. They were basically the house band for a lot of people and uh David Bowie, you know, let's dance, they're all over that.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

Which is Steve Ray Vaughan.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

He played the solo on it.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

Oh, he didn't play the funk part?

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So they did it, pulled a bit of a Michael Jackson there and Are you saying that Noel was on that song? Yeah. He's on that album. I didn't know that either. I think he might have even sort of partly produced the album. Right. Because that album is completely different to normal David Bell.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

A lot of Bowie fans don't rate it. I think it's amazing. Oh, I love it. Yeah. It's like um he completely changed Diana Ross's sound with um I'm coming out. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

That's all Nile Rogers. Yeah. That's a great song. Yeah. Now I would be remiss if I didn't put this on. Like so obvious. Old Vinny. This is one of these songs. There's a there's a number of these songs that changed drumming, right? When they came out. And I remember working for so long, mostly on the steering wheels, um, trying to figure out how to tap 4-4 over a 5-8 groove. Which now I find really comfortable. But it was such a mind game at the start, you know. And he had this famous quote where someone said, How do you count this song? And he said, if you have to count it, you can't play it. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

You basically have to break your brain in half, right? Like, how on earth I mean, I assume you agree with me that you shouldn't count when you play anyway, because it kind of kills your groove.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Um and limits what you can take on. But how would you count this anyway?

SPEAKER_02 36:03

I've done a cover of this song. Um, this has been thrown on me, so I uh no, I I assume it What in terms of how to get control of it?

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Yeah. Do you mean the whole thing, or do you just mean that hi-hat thing? Cover? Do you mean? Like, get it get control of which part of it?

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Just a g just it in general? Um no I mean trying to explain it.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Oh, basically.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Yeah, sorry, yeah. I mean this part is just such a lift day.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

It's beautiful. It has this incredible chord progression that moves chromatically, and it passes lots of diminished chords on the way up, which uh is one of my favourite progressions in the chorus.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Did we say this was Vinny? Yes. Oh we did? Oh, no, maybe we didn't. Okay. Yeah. Vinny Kaluda. Yeah. He's not bad. He he now we talked about Ringo before. Was Ringo your last one?

unknown 37:01

He'll move.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

That was the previous one? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Minimal minimalist. Vinny, not a minimum. No. No. Now, what he gets away with in songs is ridiculous. So he he breaks the rules. But he's allowed.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Well, because he makes it work.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

It's the same thing about talking about guitarists and shredding and stuff. It's like it's annoying until it's cool.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

If it's cool, it makes the song better. Yeah. And that's Vinny's trick is he makes the songs better.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Little name drop here. When I was talking to Steve Picaro on my podcast, he said when he gets Luca in for a session, he doesn't edit him. He just lets him go. Yeah. And whatever Luca gives you on the first or second day, yeah, that's it. Yeah. And he makes it same as Miles Davis, right? You don't edit Miles Davis. And I think it's a bit, you know, rare air for a drummer to be like that. But I think Vinny's earned that.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

Well, I'll see your name drop and raise you because this is the drummer I've met. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, we were supporting Jeff Beck and he was in Jess Band. Wow, amazing. The first thing he said to us was, Who the fuck are you guys? He saw me and my uh guitar player friend um uh backstage and and we said where we're the support act, and he's like, uh uh, then it was cool. Um but he said sorry, sorry, you know, he goes, um we've recently had lots of security issues, people getting in backstage, he apparently his laptop had been stolen and things like that. So he was he was on edge, you know, and I was just like like super stoked that Vinny like I got the grumpy famous because he's famously aggressive. I think I mean he's also famously lovely, right? But um a lot of people mistakenly say that he was the inspiration for the mother. But then again, there's a lot of drummers who have got that like Keith Moon is a mother, yeah. Um it's not true, but because he's been like and he has this kind of growly way of talking as well. Who was your drummer? Oh, we were doing a duo guitar player thing.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Oh, yeah. Can you imagine the drums and then Vinny's after you?

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Well, I've played support as a guitar player for people like John Mayer, Eric Plapton, Jeff Beck, and Tommy Manuel. So I've had my arts handed to me more times than you would like. Right. Did you feel that pressure? You did? I did, but I had to work through it. Listen to this listen to this playing at the end here. We talked all over the good bits, but people need to go and do a close listen on that song. It's incredible. I mean, he he he again it's that trick of it doesn't feel odd because the song's so well written, and apparently Sting asked him to put that um 4-4 on the hi-hat over the top to give the audience something to hold on to. Right. Pure entertainer, you know, yeah. Wanted his audience to access. And you can hear where Vinny's playing sympathetically and holding back and making again making the song work, and then there are a couple of times in the song where he's like the time to go.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Yeah. I think people like Sting are so clever that they're giving you a high sort of view of a song, but also uh consumer. Right. Like that's totally accessible. Yeah. But if you're a music geek, you're like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually think that's the hardest thing to achieve in music. Yeah. Is is it's not about writing fancy, clever shit, it's about writing clever stuff that people will still like the masses will still like. Yeah, they could still sell a stadium, you know. That's gotta be the hardest thing to achieve. Because if your whole goal is to um get the audience size up, then these days you dilute everything and you just make it, you know, fast food music, as most of the modern pop is. But but and then you go, no, I don't want to do that, I want to do more interesting musical stuff. And so you resign yourself to playing for like seven people in a basement club somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

You know, but to to get the musicality and get it to the masses is that's what Stevie Wonder and Prince and Bowie and Sting and those sorts of people did, which is why I think they're so important. Yeah. Again, when people accuse them of selling out, I'm like, what do you mean? You try doing that.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yeah. Yeah. You know, but so different as well. Well, that was his strategy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

He specifically said that. Right. You know, I mean he's a great player too, but he's never ever been on the level of the people around him. Like he's he's a fantastic bass player.

SPEAKER_04 41:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

But he's not the Vinnie Carly Uta of bass players. No, no.

SPEAKER_04 41:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

But he puts such amazing people around him that it it really lets him I mean, he is he is at that level when it comes to songwriting and performing.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

Um but yeah, surround yourself with better people.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Miles Davis, similar aid, like constantly changing the band. Yeah. Yeah, actually, when I think about it, and while he's not necessarily playing a lot, he was very minimal. Miles Davis. James Brown, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it would quickly fire people and just get it a fresh fresh blood in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

Um have you read Herbie Hancock's book? No. It's one of the best books I've ever read. Really? And it's and he talks about when he auditioned for Miles and he was invited to go up to this house somewhere, to his house. Um and he had a sort of a rehearsal space in the basement or downstairs. And so him and the guys, I forget who the other musicians were, but they're all monsters.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Um, they all showed up having just met. They were led down to the room, Miles was there, and he's like, I'm just gonna go upstairs and do something, you guys um just start jamming, I'll be down soon. And so he goes upstairs, never comes back down. And so they're like, Okay, so they just start playing, yeah, and they're just jamming, and time goes on and on and on. I don't know if he ever comes back down. I can't remember that part of the story.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

And they never got out of the basement and they're there to this day.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

But apparently he found out later that there was a vent in the wall. Miles would go upstairs and listen and listen to them play through the vent, because he was already such a big name, he wanted to hear how they played loose. He didn't he didn't want to hear them play to impress him or nerves or whatever. He wanted to hear what they really could do. And I'm pretty sure that was the band that went on the next tour.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

That's I love that. I love that. I mean, at his level, he sort of can't make a wrong decision at the same time. I mean, we can't get away with that.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

He made some questionable decisions that his fans didn't like. We're talking Miles, right? We're talking Miles? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When he started to uh who was it that who's the famous musician that produced one of his later albums and it was all out drum machines at stuff? Oh yeah. Um who is that musician? Was it Stanley Call of the Marcus Miller? Marcus Miller. Yes, that's right. I think it's actually pretty good, but it his fans hated it. It's very of its time, isn't it? Oh yeah, it hasn't

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Dated well. No. Yeah. Right, what do you got for me? Oh, you're never gonna guess this one. Nice. Do you know who's playing guitar on this song? No. Is it Noel Rogers? Do you want a few guesses or do you want me to tell you? Mmm. Talking specifically about the wait.

SPEAKER_03 44:27

No, I don't know. Lee Riddenella. Oh, don't even know who that is.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

What?

SPEAKER_03 44:32

What's the surname? Ridinella. Rit Ritinawa. Ritinawa.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Lee Rittenauer? No. No idea. He's uh he's a very, very famous um session guitarist. Oh yeah? Yeah. So this is just another day at the office for him. Before we sort of get onto his career and stuff. Can you imagine this song without the why?

SPEAKER_03 44:59

No, because it's sort of sitting in that place of it. It's like percussion, isn't it? Yeah. It's giving that kind of middle pocket.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Yeah, and there's a really interesting interview with him on the Vertex FX YouTube channel, and he covers some of the songs in his career. Um, and he said that these guys were sticklers. Right. Like, of the all the amazing musicians he's played with, he said these guys were just perfectionists. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

Like a lot of pe what would you call this disco? It is disco, right? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people hate disco. I've always thought it's weird to hate a genre, because the genres are too far-reaching. They I think it's weird to hate disco full stop. Yeah, there is some pretty cheesy disco, you know, which is but there's bad versions of anything. Um But the one thing that I don't really like about this sound, because I think everything here is magic, but it's the strings. To me, that the strings make it date badly. They sound a bit love boat to me.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

I should add, this is by no means my favourite song. Um, even, you know, my favourite song of Lee's. But for me, of the because he played a lot with George Benson, yeah, he played the guitar solo on Give Me the Night. Oh really? Yeah, it's not George Benson. Right, interesting. Um, he's the kind of guy who would get thrown in. Give me the night. He gets into this in his interview. Apparently, the second engineer accidentally wiped George's guitar solo. So Quincy Jones calls him up because he knows he's a total badass. Yeah. He's like, hey, can you just come in and re-record George Benson's guitar solo? Right. So he turns up, it's all George's gear there, and he just goes in and plays, and now he's George Benson.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

And he didn't he couldn't have heard the actual.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

I don't know. I don't know how that part of it worked. Yeah, like did they try to recreate what was there or did they just I don't know, because there was something to do with the scat, because you know it's a scat with guitar solo. Right. Oh, okay. So I don't know whether they worked off the scat part and made chords on because Quincy's a genius. I don't know how they sort of worked that. But to put in perspective how good these kind of guys are, yeah, these are the guys that you call in to save a song. Yeah. And he can just be George Benson. I mean it's ridiculous. Yeah. That's how good, that's how good these guys are, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:37

The problems that they had to solve back then before things have changed. And there's so many things now that you just oh we just need to just get one of the backups.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

All of these people, um most of these session guys are probably jazzing problem guys. Yeah, that's why they've got such a huge control. So I do strongly recommend checking out jazz.

SPEAKER_03 48:04

I think that's one of the reasons why the music of the era is so phenomenal. Yeah, they weren't just in the hot or just in long. You know, they were they were playing on such a wide variety, like they were truly seasoned players.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I definitely send you a link. Uh I'm sure you'll you'll love it. Yeah, some of his stuff is incredible.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

I wonder how many of them learnt um to play online. Like, do you think I had Zoom lessons back then? Well, you know, that would make it easier. It would make it easier. I mean, if you've been thinking about online lessons but you're not quite sure. It's it's honestly worth giving it a go. Auckland guitar lessons has been teaching via Zoom for years, long before it became the norm with students in Australia, the UK, the US, and all over New Zealand. And if you're not based in Auckland or even in a big city, that's kind of the whole point. You can learn from wherever you are. You skip the commute, you warm up before the lesson starts, and the whole time slot is actually yours. No waiting around for the person before you to pack it up. They use screen sharing, the whiteboard, the drop box, the YouTube, whatever makes the lessons work best. And early challenges with online teaching have long been sorted these days as their most popular options. Or if you're keen, head to Ork and Guitar Listons and get in touch. OrphanguitarListen is at Dotco.nz or email info at orphanguitarlessons at dotco.nz to find out more.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Eat your heart out of Mike Harrington. I know.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

He dropped all over that one last time.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

So so is this the police? Right. I don't instantly recognise the song.

SPEAKER_03 49:54

It's quite hard choosing a police song. Or choosing a Copeland song, because there's so much, so much variety. But I just like some of the surprising choices on this one.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

What I really love about your selections is you've chosen a minimalist song compositional type guy, Ringo. Yep. You've chosen a clean session king, you know, A-tier first call type of guy. And now you've chosen a madman.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Who isn't perfect? That's right. Who isn't minimalist? One of the things though about these recordings that he talks about quite a bit is that, like most bands, their first album or so, they were out touring it for a while before they recorded it. But once they got to this stuff, they'd go into the studio and he he would often have heard the song for the first time 20 minutes earlier.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

And he'd be like, they'd they'll sort of play the song to him, they'd have a couple of run throughs and press record. Um, and then he jokes that he spent the next 45 years with people saying, How did you make that choice? And like, why did you play the film this way? He's like, I don't know. I was liter literally, you know, he goes, but he would like knock these drum parts out, often not knowing how the song's going at all. And if you know that you can hear him kind of going, uh, what's happening now? And sometimes he'll even start a section and then change tact once he realizes what's happening. And people think he's just been super creative. He's like holding on for dear life. Yeah. And then he'll say, like, after that, Sting and Andy would go through and do like millions of overdubs getting all their parts just right. And yeah, that's a crunchy guitar solo. This is Andy's more experimental side of his playing. Wow. Oh yeah, but uh when you go away from the hits, they're pretty out there, bad.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

Toto is the same.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Yeah, surprisingly proggy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Who knows what?

SPEAKER_02 51:40

I I definitely noticed what what you just said, I'd learn I did a cover of uh Roxanne uh Roxanne. Yeah, Roxanne, yeah. Um, and there's parts where he's playing clearly they go into the next section, but he's still on the higher and he stays there, but then he switches. Yeah, it's awesome! Yeah, yeah. Like I don't It's probably is a mistake, right? But mistake can be misconstrued these days. Because you would never do that.

SPEAKER_03 52:11

But it's in the moment stuff. Like these days it's too organized. Yeah. Chorus. By the way, there's been almost no snare for the whole song. Finally changes gear just there. There we go. Even that bit's a song.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

Yeah. That could be its own song. Yeah. Wow. What I love with groups like this is you can feel the energy. Right. Absolutely. They sound young and they sound excited and you can hear that they're tracking it together.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

Yeah. Even though there were overdubs and studio tricks and things like that. Yeah. But they caught the energy first by literally being in the room, you know?

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Because how would you write this if you weren't just jamming it?

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Ah, he's an amazing drummer man. I was literally listening to this like a couple days ago. Right. Do you know who the guitarist is? Is it Luka? Paul Jackson Jr.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

Because I I realized that I'd sort of forgotten about the song. Because it's the last one on the album, isn't it? So I heard someone say, sorry to interrupt. Yeah, yeah. I heard someone say that this was this was like the quintessential song off the record, like the last song on the record. And I was like, what? I thought it was just like the weird last song. Um, and then when it got like maybe towards the end of the song, then I was like, oh, I kind of get it. It's like the climax of the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Yeah, yeah. I think this this one for me sort of represents like for me, like the role of that player, that type of player. He's not playing much. I don't think he's playing at all through the verse.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

Well, no one's playing much, yeah. Yeah. We haven't said what the album is yet.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Thriller.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

I wonder how many people know that. Because you don't really hear it, right? Like isn't Thriller like nine tracks and seven of them are massive hits or something? And this is like one of the other two.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

But this but just listen to what the guitar adds. Yeah. Even though it's very minimal. Here we go.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Oh. Okay. Oh, there it is. There's the funk guitar. What a pocket shift, eh? Who and who would work on this, right? Yeah. If you're learning guitar, it's such a complimentary track. Yeah. These are the parts that are hard sometimes to get across in a lesson because it's like well, it's the same with a lot of Frushanti stuff. You know, like if you're teaching Breaking the Girl, that's fine, there's a big scrummy thing there. But often Frushanti, I I swear Frushanti must have learned most of his chops from Motown. Right. Because it's often like very small complementary parts that sit on top. And my kind of again, like primary school um theory on this is that Motown is groove-driven, groove and melody, and all of the other instruments complement on top. I think that's kind of the the the um the approach for the chilies too. They're driven by you know groove, especially with Flea, and um and then not so much melodies or such, but you know, vocal parts. Um and then Frushanti would come in with those little funky things and stuff to leave all that space. So I I I totally agree. I think most guitarists would hear that bit and sort of not even think about it. Whereas that was the first thing I tuned into back then when I was same around seven. Yeah, now they're changing gear, right? The bass starts really like digging in. And you can also, this song I think showcases how much of an unbelievable singer Michael Jackson was. Oh. This is like gospel. People forget that. Yeah. Piccaro on drums. Oh, it is. And it's the dream team. Yeah. That raspiness in his voice, you know. And it's all so held back, but it's gonna continue to build.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

I really feel like the vocal delivery and presence is what's got in mist. You know how we've had so many, like Timberlake is sort of a Michael Jackson clone, and yeah, all these people that tried to do a Michael Jackson, they missed the vocal delivery and intensity. Yeah. Oh, we laugh at all the shamans and all that, but he is like giving it you know, everything.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

Much like what we were talking about on the Yachtwal episode, um, that cynicism I find so draining. Oh yeah, I love that bit. But I find the cynicism so draining because yeah, a lot of it is funny and it's not dated well, and and a lot of it's silly if you look at it that way or whatever. But I just find it's actually a barrier to getting to some true, you know, nuggets of wisdom in music.

SPEAKER_04 56:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

Things like what you're saying, are like the Shamol thing, which lyrically is the are the words come on. Right. It's come on just being sort of evolved in that explosive, emotive way. If you go back and listen to a lot of historic music, the the musicians are performing and they're kind of lost in it. They've closed their eyes. Yeah, exactly. It's a it's an emotive, expressive.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Well, James Brown. Yeah. I mean, I don't even know if he's saying words half the time. That's right. It's more just like a scream like a uh like a gospel preacher, yeah, like you know, losing his mind.

SPEAKER_03 57:31

Not to mention the world of scatting and there's all of that stuff, but the gospel singers would like this ripping! Yeah, he's he's kind of like a saxophone there in a way. Yeah, that's incredible. I I literally listened to that sometime in the last week and we just had another moment with it. So Stoke brought that one up.

SPEAKER_02 57:49

And like again, uh, I've been watching a lot of this Vertex guitar effects channel. Yeah. There's a great interview with Paul Jackson Jr. on that, and uh he plays through these songs, he shows you the gear that he used, he talks about that, although he's not a huge gear guy. Um he sort of goes through all that. And when he plays through the song, and because there's parts where there's no guitar, he just sits there, and he's just like, and you just think this is a real dude, man.

SPEAKER_03 58:19

I noticed the same thing when I saw the next one I've got lined up when I saw this gameplay live. I noticed how much of the band is just standing there waiting for the time because it's not their time yet. And I remember thinking like, that's a bit weird. And then I thought, oh no, these guys are coming from a jazz background. That's what they're used to doing. They're used to just waiting for the amount, they're actually making the right musical choice at the time. And then not just feeling the need to kind of dance and you know, ham it up, and not everything has to be the time.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

But at the same time, because if you watch Paul Jackson Jr. in the concert, like he'll headline his own band and stuff, he's more than capable of sticking it up. Right. And he'll play that song live and play the vocal on the guitar. He'll do all of that. He'll give you all of that if you want it. Yeah. But what do you want? Yeah, yeah. Because whatever you want, I'll just give you whatever you want.

SPEAKER_03 59:08

Yeah. Well, speaking of lasers more.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

Oh god, we've got cross rhythms and all sorts going on.

SPEAKER_05 59:49

You will have no doubt that I'll do my best.

SPEAKER_03 59:53

I don't know who this is. Really? I'm surprised. It's not a not a mass audience thing, but just as a drummer on I thought you'd know who it was.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:02

Oh, you you suppose I don't know the drummer? Or the artist? Or the artist. Both. It sounds like Maya. Really? To meet the voc vocally a bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:10

Interesting. I suppose it does have a Mayor-y tone to it, yeah. It's a very distinctive snare sound. In some ways, most famous for his hi-hat work because it's so inconsistent. It's more it's more consistent here than it usually is.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

Oh, I've got it, it's on the tip of my tongue.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

You just tell me when you want me to tell you. Oh no. You you go you go. This is a Dave Matthews band. Right. This is Carter Boffin. Right. Okay. Were you even in some anyway thinking about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

I wouldn't have got that actually. But now that you say it, of course. Yeah. It's a band I don't know a lot about, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

This drummer, I mean, he's world famous in the especially in the music community for his play. Um Massive commercial success too. Yep. Um, but he is so busy. Like, he basically breaks every single rule we all talk about. Less is more and whatever. He just He just goes full ticked. And he's obviously been given a license to do that as well. Yeah, I mean him and Dave are uh Dave Matthews the singer of guitar player are are the engine of the band. Yeah. Um and that's the sound that they're going for. I mean, Dave Matthews has said in interviews that his mandate to the musicians, because these days they have like a nine-piece band and they have guests all the time and stuff like that. Um but he says his mandate to the band is you must bring everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:00

What a what a joy to play in a band like that, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:04

Yeah. Like I just we don't want to hold you back. We don't want you to second guess yourself, take chances, screw up. I just never want you to phone it in. Never want you to phone it in. Any version of phoning it in, it's a deal breaker. I want you to bring everything you've got. And you hear it when you especially when you just listen to their live records, every single one of them is just going at it, you know. But they're so good, they're not getting each other's wasted.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Yeah. Well, not that we need to pigeonhole people, but what genre would you call Dave Matthews fan?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

Um, I mean, a lot of the music I like doesn't comfortably fit in genres, which is probably why I like it. You'd probably call them jazz rock or something, I don't know. A little bit of folky like kind of, yeah. Country-ish at times? I mean, yes, all of it. Yeah. They were jazz musicians. Um, Dave wasn't Dave was brought up in South Africa. Um, so he he's got those sensibilities in him. But when he first had the inspiration um to put a band together, he had been bartending at a local bar where a local jazz band had were playing that had Carter Boford on drums and Leroy Moore on sacks. So he just went to them, like, he worshipped these guys. They were much older than him, too. So he he wasn't thinking I'm gonna ask them to join my band. He just went and said, Can you help me make a demo? And they were like, Yeah, sure, we'll help you. And a couple of jams later they were like, This this is actually really awesome. Um, and they started to gig and then the whole thing exploded. Like in very nap very organic rise, you know. This is never caught on hair, right? No, never caught on hair. This is the big payoff ending.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

Such an unusual arrangement of instruments, too.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:51

Like violin and violin, saxophone, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass, drums. Uh this album, the electric guitarist wasn't formally in the band at this point, but used to be on a little bit of recordings. And piano, yeah. That is madness. Amazing, right? And they're uh Mike and I have done an episode about them actually that's not out yet. Um, but they got pigeonholed as a jam band because they are because they are. And I like I I say to Mike, I don't know why jam band has become a derogatory tournament. Yeah, because it's like musicians playing. What is the problem?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:26

Especially if they're good. I feel like this about tempo. Yeah, because you know how now everything has to be flat line, yep, we started at 95, we end at 95. Yep. It's like become uh dynast to say someone sped up and slowed down. No, I don't mean it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:43

I mean good, like you've never heard anything from the We've got a they've got a pulse. Good, yeah, exactly. What's this?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

That's magic.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

Yeah, I'm always astonished when people um diss this band. I've I've actually seen people from our local industry that I have a lot of time for, that I like quite a lot, who have gone out of their way to this Dave Matthews band. And I I can't help but see that as just people who are afraid because they don't understand it. It's like that's that's too hard, I don't get it. I have to go back to listen to three core bands again.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:20

I remember talking to Steven Small about uh Toto. Yeah. And the same thing it was at one stage it was really uncool to like Toto and the crew like Steely Dan. Oh, they're so genius, it's too perfect on the Eno doesn't know. He's always got a great line. If you don't like Toto or Steely Dan, you've either got no type or you just don't get it. There's nothing to not like musician.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:53

I can leave it. I can get people who don't get that. People who have only eaten basic food and they don't have a complex palate, right? And then you and then you and then you give them something more sophisticated and they're like, oh, you know, you know, they're they're just used to their McNuggets.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:11

Um we were talking about being honest on this one. Yeah. I haven't listened to a lot of Dave Matthews band. I don't think it's something I would just casually put on at home, for example. You know?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:26

It's probably something that I would want to maybe sit down and listen to. They're the kind of band, you know, in the past where we used to buy records. And there were there were always the hits that were easy to like. Yeah. And then you listen to the new album because you had to buy the whole thing. And there were a few songs that you're like, I'm not sure if I like that one. Two years later, you're sick of the hits and you love those ones you didn't like at first. Dave Matthews band of those two songs. Yeah. And I bet you they're live actors phenomenal. Out of control. Yeah. Um, but I guarantee, if for if I I'm not telling you to, but if for whatever reason you just started to routinely put them on, you would just get deeper into the. Like it would just be like, oh, oh, oh, totally. Um, but they're de They're the kind of band that are impossible to introduce people to. When you go listen to this, they're like, what the fuck? Yeah. Where do I start? More of my favorite funk playing. Yeah. You definitely won't know this afternoon.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:26

No, I don't.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:31

The bass and guitar into play. And we're talking about how guitarists will look past that type of playing. It's actually surprisingly hard to land.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:39

Yeah. Yeah, you need to have all your technique going at once to get that to fully land in his pocket. It's so easy to for that type of guitar playing to just come out a bit clunky if you're not quite on it, you know? Or to push it forward or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:53

Grab a bassist, tell him to learn this bass line, you play the guitar with it, record it, and have a listen back. Yeah. Oh. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 1:08:04

We want to.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:05

I'll I'll say who it is because you're not gonna get it. This is Phennis Henderson. Okay. Song is called Me. Um 1983.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:15

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:17

This song is a selection that also represents my favourite style of guitaring. Yeah. But I don't know who the guitarist is. There's five guitarists on the album. Al Makai McKay, Steve Lukather, Paul Jackson Jr., I think it's him. Sounds like him. Mike Lander, and Gregory Doty. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:46

The personnel list of this album is like nine songs, and it's just I know we're supposed to be talking about the guitar playing, but I I can't help noticing how high in the mix the hi-hats are. And I I don't know if you agree with this comment, but I feel like a lot of modern music they crank the hi-hats down. Yeah. And I love hearing the hi-hats. Everybody wants the bass, yeah, like really loud, you know? And fat. Not all pick drum and bass needs to be fat. Sometimes I think it undermines it.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:12

I really want you to hear this bridge. This is probably my most listened to album of the last five years.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:38

So much restraint though as well, right? Oh, love that. That's amazing. Got that South American vibe, right? Those are some of my favorite types of these. Yeah, though that South American influence infused into this little stuff. Oh man, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:10

I have to look this one up. So I only got after this album because I did a interview with a a national session drummer, yep, called John Hammond. He's an incredible drummer. He's like a top, top core, first core national guy. And we started going real deep and um he said we started talking favorite albums, yep. And especially albums that you wouldn't have heard. And he said, you have got to check this album out. Yeah. The drummers on it are Carlos Vega and Acaro and JR. Oh yeah. So the personnel list, yeah. Anyway, off the chain. Yeah. Um. And it has become one of my favorite albums and one of my white favourite albums. She's like, it's always got it on. Yeah. Every song is just like mind-blowing. I love this. Is the whole album in this sort of vibe? Um, it's a few ballads. Yeah. But it is. I mean, it's just absolutely mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:20

And no one's heard it. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. No, I love that. I'm definitely adding that to my my thing about it later. I've got one more left, and you've got five, I've got six. We're a little bit out of time. Yep. So I'm gonna let it play and um maybe talk about it for a second and then do our do our outro conversation over it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:20

Really.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:20

It stands out, eh? Yeah, yeah. Almost sounds like a demo. Again, not a critique. Yeah. No, it's just don't take this as a diss of the time in a way.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:30

This is one of my favourite artists too. I remember you I think you've talked about this this artist before, I can't remember the name. Yeah. Want me to say? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:38

Erica Bardoo. Oh. Okay, right, yeah. Which means you should know the drummer. Is it Questlove? Yep. Yeah. That's not a very questy song because he often plays quite minimally as well. Um, I also love the roots as well, so.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:55

But this is quite a busy, questy thing, but it's just such a great trap.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:05

You wouldn't call these drums super big and fat, would you?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:07

Which is surprising. There's a bit of subbiness in the kick, but it's not overwhelming everything else. It's just like a still a localized, controlled subby kick. Yeah, yeah. I love this bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:24

I hope I'm not being I mean that's a pocket, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:31

Since you ain't playing by the boo.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:34

I didn't look it up, but I have a feeling this might be Peter.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:41

Have you are you a D'Angelo fan? Love him. Did you see any of those concerts he did with uh it was D'Angelo and Quest Love? Yep. Duo. Oh Juo? Have you seen it?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:53

No, I've seen live stuff with Quest, but not Juo.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:57

It is life-changing. On YouTube? Yep. Yep, I'll look it up. Even the crowd footage captioned on an iPhone, and you're like, Well, firstly we need to hear what everybody else thinks.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:14

I'm interested in the fact that you didn't choose any of the guitar gods, which I quite actually admire. I quite like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:22

Um they have their place. Yeah, that wasn't me trying to be clever or anything. Obviously, those guys are incredible, you know, Van Halen and all of that type stuff. Um, but it's more people that me, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:35

Yeah, well that's what I did too. Yeah. So in in further uh um what's the word? Episodes of this episode? In further instalments? Further installments. There we go. So in further instalments of this theme, we'll cover some like more random stuff, I'm sure. Yeah, there'll be more surprises. For sure. Yeah, I've got quite a few uh more surprising choices on drums, which I look forward to playing here. Um but this is where we want everyone to have their say as well. So jump on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, our Instagram, our Facebook, uh wherever else you leave reviews and comments. Let us know what you think. This is not a uh an episode about who we think the best are, it's just our it's just our favourites. So I guess the measure uh the measure is who has moved you the most, who has inspired you the most, um, who is most noteworthy. Good way of saying it right? Yeah. Not really such a thing as the best anyway, so what does that mean? Yeah, almost like if you could set up your dream band, you know, who would you want in there? Yeah. So um we've got our what have we learnt today section here. I like the fact that you've chosen really tasteful players, really pop it's like funnily enough, you've actually chosen very rhythmic players. Which makes sense to you being a drummer.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:52

Yeah, that was one of the things I realized when I was looking through my list, I was like, oh, there's a real real theme coming up here. Especially when I had to chisel it down. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:02

So what have you learnt the other way around? Any surprises there? Uh I feel like mine are pretty obvious.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:09

No no no no surprises. Yeah. Um I'm always fascinated with bassists and guitarists who they like. I'm more interested in that than who a drummer likes. Right. To be honest. Yeah. Because they're the ones who have to play with us. You know. What impresses a drummer won't necessarily impress a guitarist or a bassist. Yeah. And what have I learnt? Um, I've actually learned a lot about my taste. Yep. Um, in terms of your selections. It I think it shows like a range of listening, right? But it's definitely um it's not just one thing. You're not a rock guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:51

No. But you're not. I forget that everyone's okay. I always thought I think I'm having the same thing for dinner every night, you know. There's a variety out there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:59

You also can't separate the song the song from the drummer, right? So if someone's putting out amazing music by Michael Jackson, you're more likely to go, oh listen to the drums. And they've got amazing players, of course. Yeah. So there is an element of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:17

I'm just honestly, I'm actually just really looking forward to the next one. Well, people should join our Facebook group. Go to our Facebook page, which is What Do We Know Show, and then find a link there to our group and uh ask to be added more ledger. There's a really interesting conversation there in the last couple of days where I put a message up about us recording this. People talking about their favorite guitarists and drummers, and it's just all over the place. And it's it's fascinating. And everyone everyone mentions is fantastic. Yeah. Um and I'd see someone say a name and think, yeah, I mean they're great, and they're just sort of not really on my list, but you know, they're awesome for different reasons. And you know, so so go there and speak up. That's what the what the group is for. Yeah. And yeah, but it's been fun. It has amazing. Shall we uh do something? This episode was brought to you by Orkin Guitar Lessons. Head to Orkmanguitarlessons.co dot NZ or email info at Auckland Guitarlessons.co dot nz to find out more.