Why Do People Hate Bono?

He's one of the biggest rock stars of our time. He's talented, influential, he works tirelessly to help people in need, and he and his band U2 had the audacity to give one of their albums away for free. Out of all the famous icons in the world, Bono has to be one of the worst right? Wait, why's that again? We are joined by Danny's original podcast cohost Bobby Kennedy to dig into the subject.


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Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:06

Specifically selected you a baby blue shaker for later. Every time you pick up a new shaker, you have to kind of get the feel for it, right? Like figure out where the bounce back is. Yeah. Yeah. Where the pits hitting. We're joined today by our uh our regular current co-host, Mike Harrington. Hi Mike.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Hello.

SPEAKER_06 0:33

Nice to see you again. And our previous co-host, Bobby Kennedy, has returned. Hey my man, how's it going? There is a slight feeling of sitting here with my current girlfriend and my ex-girlfriend next.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I'm eyeing up the ones the guy sitting next to me going, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_06 0:48

I'm thinking either you're gonna you're gonna argue with each other, or you're gonna both turn on me, or you're gonna start fucking each other.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

We're gonna debt you and make our own party.

SPEAKER_06 1:00

All of the above, likely. The next hour. We have no idea. You didn't tell me it wasn't that kind of party. So uh uh it's been a while since you've been talking on the mic, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

It feels like it, yeah. I don't remember the last time. We we used to do one at the start of every year, didn't we? Yeah. We've we haven't done that for a few years.

SPEAKER_06 1:17

Oh, I know the last one we did. It would have been Stephen Gallagher. Oh yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

We uh it was a yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:22

Yeah, which would have been November, December for the film thing that he did. Yeah, for that Lord of the Rings thing. Yeah. Wow. So we've invited you back on, and this time we don't just talk about Iran like we used to. Oh yeah, what are we we're talking about? Is it Trump? We're talking about Trump? No. We try not to. I don't know if you've ever listened to any of our uh just the two of us episodes. Yeah, highly entertaining and highly unorganized.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah. But I mean that's kind of you in a nutshell, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Starting already.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Are you trying to say that this one's more organized? Slightly, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:55

We have a theme, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Oh, right, okay. And you've and you've done research on that. That's all it takes, is just having a loose outline. More organized.

SPEAKER_06 2:04

Well, uh, we gave you a list to choose from, and you chose Bono, and you said in your response that you're a recent convert. So does that mean you you used to be a hater?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah, there's a storied, yeah, there's a history there, I think, with with me, and not just with Bono, but um but you two in general. Because the theme the the theme that caught my eye was what was it, um, why does everyone hate Bono? Yeah, right. Yeah. And I remember, well, actually, when I was uh coming up, I was one of those people that didn't like U2 at all, but for for for stupid reasons, I was just a kid. But yeah, there's this this thread I guess that weaves through my music um I guess heritage with with U2 all along because I came up in the 80s and and 90s and stuff. The very first memory I have of U2 was my cousin had a um he had a poster on his wall, it was the unforgettable fire U2 touring New Zealand, and it had the Christchurch Town Hall, the Dayton, all that kind of stuff that they played. And I remembered thinking or I just assumed that that meant they were a New Zealand band. I didn't know anything about international touring and stuff like that. And I think it was down to the fact that my school had just done a performance with a whole bunch of other schools at the town hall. So I'm just thinking, okay, if they it must be a local band. And that was further cemented, I think, a couple of years later when they had that um that song One Tree Hill that came out on the Joshua Tree album. Yeah. And the video was very, you know, New Zealand centric. And I thought, okay, well the I just thought they were a Kiwi band, and for that very reason I didn't like them. I suffered cultural cringe. Oh yeah, I was inflicted with cultural cringe, I think, at the time as a teenager coming up. And then it was around about that time that I started playing in bands. And because they were the b the it band of the time, invariably you'd get people suggesting, oh, we need to play a U2 song, U2 song, because we were only doing covers at that point. So I was coming across their music all the time, and I still really did not I didn't see in it the things that other people saw in them. But I remember this was a really cool kid who was a really great guitarist, um convinced me to go with him and his mates to sit outside the concert that was happening at that was the Rattle and Hum Tour had come to town and this time they were playing in a big stadium. And by that I think at that point I knew they were an Irish band, uh an international band. And we sat outside because we didn't have tickets to go inside and we'd listen to them play. And then I started thinking, oh, there's something to this. I don't know if it was the sound or the atmosphere, yeah, or the fact that this person that I thought was really cool liked them and whatnot. And then um and I think the time that I can became a a U2 fan was when I finally had a ticket to go along to the concert. My sister bought it for me to go to the Zoo Ropa or the Zoo TV tour, which would have been the nineties. So you converted actually a long time ago. I converted, yeah, yeah, and it was a live conversion in in concert, it was just the most amazing spectacle I'd ever seen. I'd never been to a live concert before.

SPEAKER_06 5:01

Because I think a lot of people back then loved them and the hate has grown more recently in the last couple of decades.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

I feel like sort of the other way around. I feel like the state the hate has been pretty steady, but for for different reasons, you'll have different pockets of people who have come to um like and dislike them. And then look, and and it sort of waxes and wanes with me. The prop the first proper band I joined, which had a um we had a residency at a bar in Christchurch. In fact, I'm going down there in September to play with that same band, a band called Gorilla Biscuit. Yep. Um we're doing the Ducks Deluxe. I think it's their 40th year birthday or something like that. We're going down to play. Um and eventually that band, some of those members of that band became Opshop. But we I had to learn all the basically the entirety of Joshua Tree to be in that band. Right. Yeah. A rite of passage, you know.

SPEAKER_06 5:50

It's funny, um, I was just gonna say about things you get confused when you're a kid and you thought they were a Kiwi band. Yeah. My the thing that came back to my memory just then was um when I was a kid, I guess every time I watched the news, they must have cut to a journalist who was based in Christchurch. And because I had the words Christ in church under his name every night and was always the same guy, when I was a tiny kid I thought he was God. So did he, and so did Bono apparently. But um I I also remember somewhere in the early 2000s, I was at my then drummer's house hanging out, and he said, Oh, check this out. This is this new band that's coming out, and we put it put it on it was op shop. Um and he was like, Does that singer sound like Bono to you? And I was like, Yeah, it kind of does. You know, and I don't know if I stand by that now. I haven't actually heard Karen's voice for a while.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

A lot of people would say have said the same thing over the years, yeah. And that will be because we came up with those, you know, we learned all of those U2 songs coming coming through the years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:51

I wonder how much of his voice has the same tone or whether it was more about how he phrases or like stylistic choices and the yeah and the way you sing the lyrics.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, possibly. I I don't know what but there's yeah, maybe that same register. Yeah. Did you get that from other people too? Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, I've certainly heard that from over the years. And I think I I don't think I don't think he would see it as a as uh either a compliment or or anything that's detrimental.

SPEAKER_06 7:14

Right, yeah. Well, I mean my um view on U2 is like they've never been my favorite band, but I always really like them.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:22

And um especially when I go back and look at their catalogue, it's just like one amazing song after another. They sort of forget what's there, you know. Yeah. And that's what you know, so that's kind of where I'm coming from. And I think you were saying you'd never really visit them, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, I was pretty I'm still pretty neutral on U2. Like I it's uh, you know, they were already massive by the time I was kind of started listening to music, so yeah, didn't really understand or know like their sort of come-up side of the things. Um Mike's only about 23, just so you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I look a little bit older than I am. Um but but it was you know, I know their hits, um, and obviously you hear them on the radio, you've heard them for years. But when we were preparing for this episode, I did do the same as you and kind of went back through their whole back catalogue and go, holy shit, they do have a lot more really good songs than I gave them credit for. Yeah. And hearing some of the stuff that wasn't so much a hit was pretty cool too. Um they had a much uh wider range than I originally gave them credit for. Yeah. Mostly because I just knew the hits, right? So you you hear that and that's U2 sound, but yeah, they're a bit all over the place uh throughout the different albums.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yeah. Very much so. I think that was intentional too. When you I mean they considered themselves a punk band, right, when they started out. And I guess for my mind, I I didn't I never saw them as that, maybe um uh in their attitude rather than form and structure of the music or or or whatnot. Uh most people thought they were a post-punk band, whatever that means. Yeah. But I think you know, the attitude that they bring um and the anti-establishment um vibe is probably more punk than the music pretended to be. Yeah, but there was that um there was a concerted debate, I guess, effort for them to change things up when it came to uh I think around the Joshua tree.

SPEAKER_06 9:06

Well let's let's let's um just have a listen to uh listen to a bit of this. This is them earlier from those first days. This is when they were still called the hype. Right, okay.

unknown 9:28

Oh man, I just got here. You're gonna figure out a lead.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

This definitely sounds more punk.

SPEAKER_06 9:34

Yeah, you can hear the Ramones and the clinch kind of. You can still hear you too, though, as well, can't you? Yeah, it's like an unrefined, unformed. Okay, yeah, I get that. I'll jump forward for a second. I thought this bit was interesting, they changed feel, and the edge plays in a more traditional kind of way, and it actually showcases them as being a pretty bloody good guitar player.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

See, I mean, that's what I mean about punk. Punk music didn't have guitar solos. Right. Or or guitar breaks. Yeah. So this is kind of, I guess this is the post-punk almost pop yeah, pre-U2.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Keep the attitude, but then maybe raise the musician to ballistically.

SPEAKER_06 10:27

Also for the record, they're about 17 at this point. Right. Which is pretty pretty impressive, right? It is.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Are there more than three chords in this? No.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

That's the punk part. That's the punk part. Yeah. It's almost Pink Floyd.

SPEAKER_06 10:45

It's not a bad solo for a 17-year-old guitar.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, I think I definitely underappreciated the edge. A bit over the years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:59

I was um at their 2010 concert in uh whatever that was. In 2010.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

And the Vertigo tour? What was that one?

SPEAKER_06 11:09

The I think it was the 360 tour.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:11

Yeah. And they had the the bit in front, the catwalk was sort of the semicircle thing, and they had this bridge that went around and went over the people in the in the who were in the middle bit. Oh. And uh a friend of mine was a flight attendant and was a huge fan of U2. Yeah. And had um they fly on their own plane, but he had recognised their crew as much of a fan he was. Wow. And apparently he spent and he's a pretty annoying guy. And he spent the rest of the flight just annoying the shit out of them until I think maybe one of them, he his version of the story is they were so lovely they gave me free tickets. I think they'll probably like, take these and fuck off. But he rang me up and he goes, I've got these these tickets to go right in the middle, right in the front middle bit, which is pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Maybe he was uh uh there's a story around uh Greg Carroll, the the guy from Auckland, the the Māori fella from from Auckland who became one of their crew who did something similar, I think. Saw them on a tour while they were here, haranged them, but then suddenly became a friend of theirs and joined their crew. Cool, yeah, and became you know really close friends with Bono and and uh Larry.

SPEAKER_06 12:14

Well, there was this moment in the show where the bridge stopped right above my head, but just off a little bit so I could see. Right. And the edge happened to stand right above me while he played a guitar solo. Wow. And so I literally watched him play a solo from like a metre and a half away or whatever it was. Yeah. And I remember enjoying the moment, but I couldn't help but look like look at his technique, and I remember thinking like he's a seriously good player.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:35

Um, and as I watched some of this other stuff, I mean, one of the other clips we'll get to soon is Sunday Bloody Sunday Live. Yeah, and just hearing the clarity and the power in their playing when they're you know, it's it's not a small thing. There's a four-piece well, a three-piece essentially, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Bono doesn't often play the guitar, does he? No. Yeah. Yeah, how did they get that massive sound? I I know that the the delay pedals and the all of the little trickery, and there are people that say that Edge is kind of like a a scientist when it comes to the music, um, musicality of the instrument, the guitar itself, using it to the to the advantage. And he had to to make a massive uh the massive sound that it was because they had more members in the band. I don't know if it was when they were called the hype or whatever, but when they first started as as teenagers, I I think Edge's brother was in the band. Right. And there was another guitarist, and then they had other friends who who went off and did a a different group, but some of those members, and they sort of split off and then just became this core four-piece.

SPEAKER_06 13:29

Yeah, I read that there was a guy in the band who was much older. And I think I think he kind of stood out a bit. Oh yeah. Um I did read that they decided to part ways with them, but they did so they handled it really nicely, and they I think they had a farewell gig together, and then you're right, they they went off and started a different band, and then those bands would go and like tour together. The Virgin Prunes, was it?

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Is that the I don't remember Gavin Friday, his friends that he was that he has to this day, Bono that is all that of friends with that band, yeah, all came up around the same time together and did yeah, the different things. Where and I you know, you you said that the animosity sort of seems to be a recent phenomenon. Yes. I I think it actually started last 20 years, you know. I think it started back back then. There was even when you two started to become really big and famous uh and started touring the world, bands like the Virgin Prunes and their former friends even turned on them because they became you know, they think, well, you no longer are you the punk band that you purport to be. You're now a pop star sold out and you're and you're sold out or bought in or whatever the the thing is. So even back then they had groups of people who were splintering away from them and and and disliking them for reasons.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

What is selling out? Is it just simply making money? Does it you gain any sort of any sort of popularity?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Probably, probably all of the above. Hey. I mean Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:47

I feel like it's thrown around too loosely. Yeah. You know, I think uh when like I think real selling out is when you go against your artistic intuition.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

I think it's when you start changing your messaging or who you are as a person or as a band. And that was the one thing that I kind of noticed when I was doing a bit of research on this, is it didn't seem like they changed. You know?

SPEAKER_06 15:08

Well they they changed in the way they wanted to change.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

But I mean they were always consistent with their messaging. Yes. And I think that's something to watch for, you know.

SPEAKER_06 15:15

I I knew a guy some years ago who had a band who sounded like nine-inch nails, that kind of sound. Went to radio, rejected, you need to sound more like the Foo Fighters, and his response was okay, and he written made like a Foo Fighter sound sounding record. Um That's the definition of sounding. I think that's sounding out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think if you're just making money and you're just like tightening your arrangement up to make it radio friendly, I don't think that's selling out. I think it's just being smart.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, I mean and and I think the haters, I mean who you don't it doesn't appear that you need a reason to hate anybody or anything. And then maybe the the whole hate thing's a strong term, or maybe there's a bit of a a spectrum of of haters or people who because if you hate something, you just you keep away from it, right? You don't want anything to do with it. But then there's that group of people who seem to love hate that's a well it's more like an anti-fan kind of thing. Yeah, so you know not a you follow everything they do in order to try and tear it down. Um and which is fucking weird. It's strange, hey. It's really weird, yeah, and very common these days, looking for things to yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:13

I think it must be something to do with wanting to feel important, wanting to feel like your voice matters, you know. What we mean we've basically just handed out microphones to every schlob around the world, haven't we? Everyone speaking up yeah, these stupid things. I want to go back to your question before though, how did they achieve that sound with such a minimal setup?

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:35

Because in the 80s, I mean I'm I'm just now thinking about the Sunday Buddy Sunday clip that I uh watched again, which I think was 83 when they played at Red Rocks.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yeah, 83.

SPEAKER_06 16:45

83, yeah. Which means it's long before they were using backing tracks and um and syncing things, you know, to click and all the tricks they do these days. Yeah. And my theory is that one, you you've got to write like how you write a song can really change how it lands on stage, right? Um if you really arrange a song really well and all the parts are well defined and they don't sort of they don't need to be played perfectly to really sync, if that makes sense. Yeah. Like if you've got everyone playing exactly the same thing, it's gonna be really easy to miss, you know. But if you've got everyone playing like different parts, that compliment, you've got a bit more wiggle room, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:27

So I think they wrote really uh strong songs, but I think also it's just down to really good technique and and um and then really good tone. Like the edge's tone is really good. Right. And for example, a lot of bands, a lot of guitarists make the mistake of thinking to make the band heavier we need more distortion, and then they learn the lesson. Actually, the bigger sounding bands have less distortion because distortion is effectively like pixelating the tone.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:53

Um so I don't know. What I was w wondering actually watching those clips is how did they get all this stuff figured out so early?

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they they had a good support network of producers and people, but they were learning coming up with them. They weren't they they're not like weren't named until they started getting into some of that really well funded uh you know, record label type uh the albums, you know. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

You kind of mentioned the edges tone, which I do agree is awesome, but I was more impressed with his rhythm playing. Like, you know, I I I I definitely fell into the category of maybe brushing him off a little bit, thinking, oh, he's just a you know, he's he's a bit of a one-trick pony where he plays with all sorts of effects and and just plays into that. But that's not as easy as it sounds like I never really realized that until I started kind of messing around with effects and trying to sort of emulate and copy some of that stuff, and it's incredibly hard. You need to be very deep in that pocket and have really good rhythm. And I think watching that live, uh, because I watched that yesterday actually, the the live at the Red Rocks um concert, and he didn't he didn't miss the whole the whole show. He was he was right in the pocket um doing some really cool stuff where he was you know doing like kind of stochatic strums on his guitar that made it sound like machine guns, yeah, and it was perfectly in time and it sounded something like that. Oh yeah, he does that marching sneak uh sound for the for Sunderbow. That's not easy. No, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:15

He really only used delay as well. He didn't really use much more than that. I think he was just one of the first who really leant into it and turned it into a thing. Made it a part of his own.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

It was his style, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:24

But why don't we give him points for innovation instead of slagging them off?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Yeah, uh there are definitely people who slag him off, but I wouldn't be one of them. I think um that innovation is is certainly uh runs alongside what he has delivered to the art of guitar playing, I think, and bought um you know, it wouldn't be easy to fill a stadium sound like a sound in the stadium with one guitar. No, no. And I know that uh, you know, in the years as they as they progress and they've become the massive, you know, done fifty to a hundred thousand seat stadiums, they have they do have other musicians playing along with them in the background with the pads and the other, you know, things under the stage or whatever. Um and I think there's a uh there was a documentary I saw where Edges complete um pedal and and um what do you he have those uh rack uh you know units, delay units or whatever. He has his whole setup there, but he's also got a guitar tech backstage who is playing along with him so that if he moves away from his pedal, this guy can set off the chain, you know, yeah to keep the show going. But it's all in the name of the sound in the show. It's not like they've they've um got an orchestra hiding backstage or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 20:31

No, and and these days it's very um it's a lot of pressure, isn't it? Because now uh they literally do run everything to a click and that's the the lights and everything's attached to it. Yeah. Um I remember seeing a behind the scenes thing, and it was way back, like late 90s, early 2000s sort of era. And in the behind the scenes footage, there was like I guess a stage manager or someone sitting there with a clipboard and headphones, and she was just counting along, you know, sixty-four, sixty-five, lights, sixty-seven, you know, or whatever. But she was like managing the different departments.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:05

And then when I saw them at the 2010 concert, I noticed that his sounds were changing. Of course, he's way out on the thing, he couldn't possibly get near a pedalboard, and his sounds had to keep changing his stuff, not to mention where the lights are moving. You've now got to remember, like none of it's accidental, you've got to remember when I'm doing this bit, go over there. Yeah, you know, and it's like it's not just playing the guitar now, it's remembering this entire choreography.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

You've got to stand on your mark. Yeah. Yeah. And then they've got all of the video screens that are synced, then all the other little elements that go with it. The last time I saw them play was when they did the anniversary tour for um Joshua Tree here at in Auckland Mounts and Mount Stadium, and they'd had they'd taken a big break. Uh, I think this was the first show back before they went to Australia, and the spectacle of the show was incredible. Like the video it was the apparently the biggest video screen in in the history of the world or some shit like that. Um that was lovely, but to watch them play, I have to admit that that. To me it felt like a covers band. You know, watching the and they were not into it. They just didn't seem like they know shit. Yeah. And um you know, the first first gig back. I was uh really disappointed. And that's kind of when I've come and gone away with them, not you know, that all that music that was that I've grown up with. You know, they say that your your music tastes are set between the ages of about fourteen to twenty five, you know, that youth phase. And and I'd say, yeah, that's true, you know, with me it was certainly you two and grunge music and and some of that other stuff, but also during that period I was working in music stores, so I was listening to a whole bunch of stuff. But when the newer the newer music doesn't really do it so much for me. It is the older stuff, the stuff that I grew up with. When you say newer though, which which newer I think beyond probably the outer reaches of my tolerance for the U2 sound would have would have been um around about how to dismantle an atomic bomb. Yeah. Vertigo. I think from that time on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:59

Yeah, I liked Vertigo. Yeah. But then after that I got bored.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, I think so. It felt like they did go because they were so innovative. When you go from Joshua Tree and they said we don't want to repeat that, and then and then they did you know the rattle and hum thing, which I think is really where the hate started coming into the picture. Yeah, around rattle and hum time. And we can get into why. Yeah. Um and then and then after that, you know, Zoo Ropa Uk Tung Baby, really they changed things around. They they they went from the American music thing to the European dance kind of scene and electronica. And then at some point, uh the I wonder whether the criticism got to them, because then they went kind of back to the acoustic pop. Right. Um you two familiar kind of sound.

SPEAKER_06 23:40

But I I made a comment to Mike and I want to know if you agree that I said that Octong Baby was easily their most important um one one of their most important albums and maybe one of their most important albums in the 90s. Almost like the Sgt. Peppers of Algonch. I'd agree.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah, yeah, I'd agree with that.

SPEAKER_06 23:55

And then Mike said why, and then I was like, um, and I couldn't quite explain myself.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Well I think that Yeah, and I'm still not really sure after because I kind of went through their discography recently and I sort of fall off at that sort of stage as well. So I'm curious why.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I think some of their biggest hits were I mean they're clearly their biggest album was Joshua Tree, right? Yeah. And they were put into this basket. And and that's when I when they went into Rattle and Hum, they deliberately, it was a deliberate move from what I can tell, where they wanted to bring in their American roots um uh you know influences influences to their, you know, and and prove to show to people, you know, this is where we grew up and this is the stuff, this is the music we grew up on, and this is the stuff that's influencing us. And some of that hate came from the fact that they here they were saying they had the temerity to say we're writing gospel songs, you know, on an album and and then going to a black Harlem church, having a c recording a choir doing a gospel version of Still Haven't Found and things like that. And w one one that the thing that always got me was in the middle of there's a song called Bullet the Blue Sky. Yeah, great stuff. And um and then you know he does one of his speeches. Uh Bono goes off in one of his speeches, which again plays into some of the hate that people have, I think. But then at the end of it he goes, Okay, yeah, just play the blues. And then Edge goes into this kind of Tom Morello guitar. Uh it's not really the blues, you know. So um and I think people thought that they were taking themselves far too seriously at that stage and started to pull away a little bit. But then Uk Tong Baby, yeah, they they went in a direction that was intentional and and I feel like it was a shift, it it lifted them to another, a different dimension, I think.

SPEAKER_06 25:37

It was a risk. Certainly was. It was a move that most artists wouldn't do these days. I think also the reason why maybe the impact's a bit lost on you, Mike, is because I think it influenced everything that followed. Possibly. And I think now it's like easy to look at it and go, so what?

SPEAKER_00 25:52

That's basically because that's what everyone else works. Yeah, totally, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 25:57

I've got let me just find it. I've got this one. And you do have to put your brain back to 1991, where they have, you know, Streets of No Name and um With or Without You and all that stuff. And Guns N' Roses, and you know, yeah. And this comes out where the drums almost sound like a drum machine, the guitar's heavily affected, you know, it's mixed totally differently.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:35

The vocal treatment.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, but a bit softer, like three-inch nails.

SPEAKER_06 26:44

I don't think I actually it just took a second to land on my brain. But that's the thing, like, I don't know how many rock bands they went on to influence more than they just influenced everybody else. Because by this point they were like really one of the biggest pop bands in the world. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah, so this would have been out of left field for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:13

I'm not sure if we'd heard anyone sing like that before. I mean, in their false detail. Yeah, apart from the PGs, it's totally different.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

I mean, even they kind of stayed in that range, right? Whereas he he he does go all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yeah. Yeah, he would introduce it from time to time in another earlier work, but not as a feature in the offline melody. I mean, he does it a couple of times in this album, he does it with the lemon as well.

SPEAKER_06 27:35

Yeah, I love that song. Yeah, yeah, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Did you notice how when they did the breakdown just then the edge was just like quack, quack, quack, we know what he playing through. Well, I think that's kind of what Michael Mike was saying, that it has that industrial kind of angular feel to it. Yeah, this album does. And um, because they they just they recorded this in Berlin, right? Okay, so they went, and part of the response to going to okay, we're gonna go we're gonna actually now fuck the American music thing, that's kind of fitness in the ark, you know, the whole seriousness of of um the peak seriousness of YouTube. Right, uh, and we're going to now, you know, um think our teeth more into the European music scene, you know, because the Europeans are from Ireland. Um and I think that they did they've they've put together a world on that album of Zero Ropa and Upton Baby into that sort of period of their lives. They built a kind of sonic landscape that almost took them off the rails. Do you remember that thing that album Passengers, original soundtracks volume one or whatever it was? Oh, vaguely. I forgot about that. An album they did with Brian Eno and Daniel Lanoir. That would have been the mid to late 90s. That was meant to be the next album after Uptown. Uh I have to go back to that.

SPEAKER_06 28:53

I remember really liking that.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

And I think the rest of the band had to talk Bono off the off the ledge because that was way out there. Yeah. That's got some really funky shit in it. Yeah. And then they decided to go full pop with the pop mart thing, which was a bit of a disaster, I think.

SPEAKER_06 29:05

The reason why I made the Sgt. Peppers comparison is because one of the things that Sgt. Peppers did, apart from just like trying new stuff and being interesting and innovative, was it really showed other artists what was possible. And and I think that's what this album did. Right. I think it sort of made bands go, Oh, you know, we can rethink this.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I think it's interesting that you chose the flyer, because you know there was a character that he did on the tour, which is the flyer character. Yeah. And then there was Mirable Man and Mr. Macfisto. Um and even you know, you think about his name Bono, which which was originally Bono Vox. All of those are kind of alter egos. Right. They're all kind of characters, and the and the flyer character was in response to people calling him you know the pretentious rock star, pretentious pop star with a messiah complex kind of thing. So he leaned right into that and was like, okay, people think that, then I'm just gonna, you know, go over the double down on it.

SPEAKER_06 30:00

I listen I listened through the album and um um and now I've forgotten the first the name of the first song. Well do you remember it?

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Of Arktong? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:07

Uh yes. But I mean that's a great song. I almost got that one ready. Right. Um, but then I listened to The Fly and I thought this one kind of has all the elements that if you needed to sum up Arc Tong Baby, with the exception of I don't have it ready to play, but I think Wild Horses is a stunning song.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

That's an amazing song, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was And one? One, another beautiful song. Yeah, I mean that's one thing they're really good. Zoom station was stationed.

SPEAKER_06 30:33

Yeah, that's a cool song. But then and then there's this one.

unknown 30:37

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:38

This is a killer song. Yeah, I mean what a riff wicked time. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

It's got all of those kind of Arabic drums in the background, all the time.

SPEAKER_06 30:48

And then there's another example of drums make it sound like a drum machine. Is that a drum machine or is that just affected? They certainly use drum machines on this album, yeah. I love it how he delayed the vocal phrasing in the second. So good about that. Yeah. But even just the idea of everything dropped out except for that low thing in the drum machine. It's just so interesting. And yet they still had the big melodies. You know, I mean, who's gonna ride your wild horse once you look at the lyrics and find out what it's about? Are your lyrics written?

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was written about um it just divorced, wasn't it? Oh, I don't know. Yeah, I think his the divorce that he was going through at the time. Right. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah, I was more impressed by the lyrics than I remember. Like going through them and re-listening. He's got some great lyrics. Yeah. Yeah, there's some some pretty hard-hitting songs in their catalogue.

SPEAKER_06 31:59

I was gonna sorry.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

The whole thing about, you know, moves in mysterious ways, uh, it's a sort of an allegory for God, right? I mean, God could be a she or a he, so she moves mysterious ways, or the spirit moves in mysterious ways. And that would that's um you know, you we're talking about how they've changed their sound over the years or their music, but they haven't changed their their, I guess, uh political views or activism in the world, um, you know, in the wider kind of concept of things. And that is totally true, you know, that that Christian values thing has been through their whole yeah, their whole background, uh everything they've done. They grew up as, you know, non-secular Christian boys or whatever. Yeah. Um and no, their politics haven't changed over the time, and I think that's the thing that most people um that's why I think around about that time people started to pull away from the whole they got the um you know, in inundated with Bono's activism. Right. But you can't fault the guy for everything that he's achieved with his fame. He used it as a currency, you know, to to to to um to achieve things that not many other people could do.

SPEAKER_06 33:02

I want to dive into that a bit more in a second, but I've been trying to teach Mike how to transition very casually into the ad reads. And I'm dog shit at it. He just he goes from here to blah blah blah blah blah. Because you're a professional podcaster, maybe you could give him a yeah, give him a listen.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Um so uh basically you just read it and if you if you fuck it, if you fuck it up, just keep going.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

No, I I think it's more specifically trying to put it into the conversation in a natural way without just going, hey, whether you've never picked up a guitar or you've been playing for years and feel like you've hit a wall, talking guitar lessons are for you. Lessons are one-on-one, and every session is built around your goals, your taste, and the songs you actually want to play. All the fundament all the fundamentals of technique and theory are covered in an accessible way and applied within the songs you're learning so you progress faster and actually enjoy the ride. We cover most genres and artists except for rush, so we appeal to everyone with good taste. Go fuck yourself, Danny. If you've always wanted to play, now's the time. If you've plateaued, Auckland Guitar Lessons will unlock your playing, rebuild your confidence, and get you moving again. Head to aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz or email info at aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz to find out more. I thought you were descripted on me every time.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

You know, guys, come on. That was the easiest setup. You could have we could have said, Hey, do you reckon that the Edge ever took guitar lessons? That's what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

But we do that one every time though. That's like that one's getting too obvious now.

SPEAKER_06 34:28

You also lean in and talk right here.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

You're gonna have that that basically so they know it's the radio voice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:35

Before we dive into that stuff, I wanted to point out a couple of things uh in defense of them. Uh a few things to rattle off here. They uh they've got to be one of the longest running bands in the world who never changed a member, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Uh yeah, like 50 years.

SPEAKER_06 34:49

Fifty years, I think, about now. Coming up, yeah. Is it is it 78 or 77 or something?

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah, you'd be right. Yeah, about 78. Yeah. Okay, so coming on to 50 years.

SPEAKER_06 34:58

Longest one of the longest running bands to stay relevant in the charts. I'm not sure where you'd put that start and finish. Like I I loosely wrote down sort of 1980 to 2005, something like that. I reckon you're about right. Yeah. Um, there are some massive bands out there, but they don't usually have a run of being that relevant in the charts for that long. Uh one of the few rock stars to sustain a long marriage. 50 years this year since they started dating. And they met at 13, married in 1982. Yeah, that's super impressive. That says a lot about the guy, doesn't it? Definitely. One of the biggest rock stars in the world. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

So you kind of was surprised when I read that too.

SPEAKER_06 35:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

I don't think you can because it doesn't really play into the whole arrogant rock star persona and vibe that everyone seems to hate him for.

SPEAKER_06 35:42

Yeah, I mean, I think I think probably what we're gonna find out is he's not that arrogant.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

There's there's an element of that though. I mean, uh part of it I think is the show. Yeah, he's the show he's an ultimate the ultimate showman. He's a um he's like a a poet, uh a poet rock star, but he's also a dad. Yeah, he's got kids and he and he does all of these philanthropic um uh enterprises that he's undertaken, as I say, that has have changed the landscape for uh uh for AIDS, um, you know, the AIDS epidemic, for poverty, for debt cancellation, all those things that he's done, raising hundreds of billions of dollars with a B, yeah, using his um rock star status and that currency. Some people would say he outstayed his welcome, um potentially, and they got sick of that kind of you know, activist um Messiah type thing that that people seem to hate him for. But I I think he's well aware of that, and that's why he he had those characters like that, Mac Fisto and the fly and whatnot, yeah, to kind of let them know people know, look ironically, I understand what you're coming from. I know you're getting sick of me out there doing all these things, but um that didn't stop him.

SPEAKER_06 36:50

No, there's uh someone in our group, in our Facebook group, who everyone should join by the way. See how I did it? No, that's just getting there. Yeah, nice and split.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yeah, you're a pro though.

SPEAKER_06 36:57

Uh Linda Baker, who I met years ago, she actually uh worked with Tommy, so that's how I met her. But she commented in the group saying, I've met him several times over the years, and he's a super nice guy. He does a lot of good a lot of he does a lot of good for a lot of people as well, so no hate from me. So I thought it was cool. I didn't know she knew Bono.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Well, that's that was actually one of the things I kept noticing too when I was trying to dig into this a little bit, was so many people that know him and have known him for years are such staunch defenders and like have not a single bad thing to say about him, which I'm you know, that's always something I kind of look for. Is it's is there consistency in the messaging and you know, have you been that same sort of person the whole time? I think if someone, you know, gets caught doing something bad and then all of a sudden, oh now look at I'm doing this great charity work, you know, everyone kind of just sees through that. And it's um I saw in an interview from Noel Gallagher, he said, I've said because he's apparently really good friends uh with Bono and has been for years. He said, I've said this to him, so I'll say it to you. Nobody likes a do-gooder. Nobody likes it. That's why people like me, I'm a do-batter. And I was like, there probably is something to that, right? Well, when someone does use their platform for that consistent messaging over a long period of time, it makes other people have to self-reflect and go, well, why aren't there more people doing this, you know?

SPEAKER_06 38:10

I wonder if it's some version of like high-level tall poppy, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Absolutely. It is oh, there's gotta be a huge part of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:16

Because I mean, you know, I I've always wondered why do we take shots of people who try and do good things. Um but also why do we celebrate people who don't do good things? You know, there are some giant superstars out there these days who don't seem to do anything.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

I think there was there was a political campaign to bring them down at some point as well, and that's right. That's aside from the kind of public hate. You'll um the clip that I contributed was the Sunday Bloody Sunday live uh the um where was it? Oh it was from Rattle and Hum where he talks about uh he does one of his speeches in the middle there and is talking about how uh Sunday Bloody Sunday is not a rebel song.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

I don't e I'm not even sure that that song should be in the film actually, Sunday Bloody Sunday, because I you know, the that day. You know, it will soon long since be forgotten and people will not understand the way we felt on stage.

SPEAKER_05 39:18

Well here we are, the Irish in America. The Irish have been coming to America for years. Go back to the great family of the Irish one for starvation. Right up to today, you know. Irish immigrants here in America today than ever. A lot of them are just running from high unemployment, some running from the troubles in Northern Ireland, from the hatred of the Home Torture, others from wild acts of terrorism, like we had today in a town called Eliscellen, where eleven people lie dead, many more injured, on a Sunday, bloody Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

So when you're talking about the consistency of message, how some people took that to mean that was a rebel republican kind of you know, anti-Protestant song. But it's not really. The they were you know, they grew up during the Troubles in Northern Ireland, that's how they came through. And most of that violence was centered around Northern Ireland, but in Dublin they had the deadliest day in that whole conflict. Um not not the Zeniskillen, that that's Northern Ireland, but um and you know, so many people died. So they saw that stuff happening in their hometown and grew up with it. They, as I understand it, are nationalists but anti-violence kind of pacifist nationalists. They want a united Ireland where you've got the loyalists who are unionists who want to stay with the British Empire and whatnot. Right. So there's hundreds of years of of turmoil around that. And then when they did that and said that, particularly on that day around the Inner Skillen bombings, um people are saying how that uh stopped essentially stopped American Irish Americans funding the IRA, you know, pulled back a lot on that. And so after that, there's a massive pushback on, you know, who's this guy to preach to us from the bully pulpit of the of the stage. Um and you know, the the Sinn Fein and the IRA, the political side of the IRA, the Sinn Fein, were out against him. And he put his life in danger. People were threatening his life, him and his kids' lives. So the things that he says over those times, the things he stood up for, has been consistent over all of th those things, whether it's you know, yeah, hunger, AIDS, debt, debt um relief for poorer countries, or this sort of thing. That message hasn't changed, you know, pacifism.

SPEAKER_06 42:14

Uh I f I mean I find myself actually getting angry listening to that, and the and the reason why is because music historically has been one of the uh most effective ways of protesting. Um It's a protest song, I mean. That's right, and and that's what art that one of the reasons why art exists, right? To speak and to rally. Um not it's not the same as doxing, it's not the same, you know what I mean? It's not the same as as uh cancel culture, it's getting your message across.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

And the message that he sends, um I wonder if we can skip to the end of that version of that song, uh, because the speechifying in it is what one of the best um uses of his um I guess because it was impromptu, apparently, what he was saying there in that song. And the the way that he's got the message across is just uh I think incredible. Um but having said that, I think around this time people in the public started getting a little bit sick of the the preaching and and whatnot, and they just wanted to have a pop star sing them songs.

SPEAKER_06 43:15

Sure, but look at the situation we're in now. Shut up and play your hits, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Stay in your lane kind of thing.

SPEAKER_06 43:21

You know, we're there's so many things going on in the world right now which are horrifying.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

And I think not enough people are talking up. That's my point. We've got where are the rebel songs.

SPEAKER_06 43:29

I don't care who Taylor Swift dated. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Like where these artists have couldn't give more less of a shit on their wedding.

SPEAKER_06 43:37

That's right. Totally, exactly. And um, you know, how many of the rock bands are saying stuff that causes that reaction?

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah. Everyone's so afraid of losing their audience or losing sponsorships or or you know, losing that little platform that you might have that people are afraid to to be controversial or to to put it on the line.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

It's you know, we're we're kind of in a Bit of a world where being nonchalant and not caring is the cool thing to do. Yeah. And Bono cares a lot.

SPEAKER_06 44:06

So we've got everything, you know. We've got albums like Octong Baby, which most bands would be too gutless to do these days, to change attack that quickly and and drastically. Um and you've got the messaging, which most artists would be too gutless to do these days. Um we're driven by metrics, and a lot of what drives things these days is gimmicks. Uh you know, the clickbaity algorithmic nature. And and that's that really disappoints me. And it makes me really really value bands like this.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Yeah, absolutely. Am I in the right place? To be fair, they they leaned into the gimmicks too, right? With those big crazy glasses and the big show and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_06 44:42

Yeah, I mean, we're not saying entertainment's always been full of gimmicks, but it's whether it's only gimmicks.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Yeah. Yeah. Is there substance behind it?

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Yeah. The thing I was talking about is the the thing that brings rousing, it's a really rousing speech. Oh, yeah, yeah. Um but looked in a certain viewed in a certain way, you can kind of go, oh, just shut the fuck up and sing the song. Yeah. But I remember hearing this and being as a young, sort of in 20s, 20-year-old kind of guy going, man, I this is this is really moving and amazing and emotive and whatnot. But I think if I heard that as a 40-year-old or a 50-year-old, I'd be going, Oh my god, what's this guy talking about?

SPEAKER_00 45:17

But who are you trying to reach? The 40-year-olds who are already stuck in their way or the 20-year-olds who are about to write their music and take on the world, right?

SPEAKER_06 45:25

But the other thing also is that if you got this messaging from Billy Eilish, I would not give a fuck. No, because she's a nobody who writes stupid music in her bedroom. He's someone who grew up in the troubles and is out there actually in the middle of it. You know, he's and he's talking to world leaders like he's actually got he's actually backing up what he's saying.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

And let me tell you something. I've had enough of Irish Americans who haven't been back to their country in 20 or 30 years. Come up to me.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Whoa. Yeah. Yeah, he's not he's not finding the I find that so moving. Yeah, I I remember watching this uh the the Radlin Hunt film and being a becoming a staunch activist and going, okay, yeah, you know, I want to be uh whatever that guy's doing, I want to be a part of it kind of thing, you know. And that was the plan, I guess. This is something real. Yeah. This guy gives a shit. Yeah, and you can hear it in the voice. A lot of people thought that that I mean that that's sincerity and emotion, but but the haters would say, Oh that's you know, sounds a bit like um bobcat goldweight there, you know, or something like that. Um but it's all not genuine. But um How would you ever get to Bobcat? But but the gen you know, uh the haters are gonna find things to hate about about him. But I reckon it started back then when people started getting he they thought he was too political and too this and too that um and then you come at you jump into this time period where people have access, they've got the the social media, they've got a keyboard and they can say whatever the fuck they want.

SPEAKER_06 48:37

I mean there's no you can't get around the fact that that's totally authentic. These these people have grown up in the middle of that shit and they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do, is they you know, they didn't go and break windows, they started a band and they sung about it.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

You know what I mean? And he's reacting to something that happened on that day in his home country where people were killed because of the sectarian violence. Right. So um hot off the press.

SPEAKER_06 49:00

There was a uh a period of Sting's career where he was protesting a lot about the rainforest and cutting down the rainforest and so on. And he got so annihilated in the media that he decided to stay quiet about it for from there on. And um and behind the s scenes ever since he's been still doing the work. But I think he was quite deeply disturbed and hurt by that process. Like I'm just trying I mean, they're literally cutting down the world's lungs, and I'm just trying to bring attention to it. What the fuck are you complaining about? Yeah. When someone is in a position of power and influence because they have a big audience, what's wrong with them using it for good? Absolutely. Yeah. It doesn't mean everyone has to, but if someone chooses to, what's wrong with that?

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Yeah. I think people got fatigued by it though, you know? Yeah. You remember I do you remember during COVID, I don't know if it was right in the middle of or around the start of, there was a there were a group of um celebrities who sang Imagine. That song Imagine, right? Oh, okay. And people thought it was so disingenuous and such.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

That's that's one to me that seemed performative. Yeah. And I think I think that's the stuff where people really cringe and kind of push back on. Yeah. And I don't get the same vibe from all of their activist stuff. Right. You know, like this is what I mean. That that's to me where it feels there's a bit of a difference in something that's authentic and real and something that is performative, and it's a very murky line. Yeah. Um, how do you draw that? But totally agree. That one, yeah, didn't that one didn't land the way maybe they thought it might land at all.

SPEAKER_06 50:28

I was in a funny conversation with someone a long time ago, but he was um slagging off Bono. And I said, you know, what what do you have against Bono? And he goes, Well, do you know he has a car collection? And I said, Okay. And I'm like, I'm not following. What's what's wrong with having a car collection? And he goes, Well, it's c you know, the collection is worth millions of dollars. And I was like, Yeah, but he makes a lot of money. Yeah, you know, I'm sure he can afford it. I guess that's the thing, you know, that money could be spent on yada yada. And I'm like, do you know how much money he gives already? Yeah, you know, they make they make so much money they probably don't know how much they're making. It's probably that.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Yeah, I think if you want to compare what Bono has and try and make that an issue, you have to compare it to people who are in his class.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

I think this is legitimate uh in people's minds, that's a legitimate argument in that he appears to be asking people to make these donations or make these changes in their lives when he you know he and he gets this too, that he's a multi-millionaire and he's got a lot of money, and yes, uh they have been accused of tax evasion um by moving all of their you know companies to Holland, but that was a business decision, probably not made by them so much. Well, I mean they would have had to sign off on it.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

So what see that's yeah, that's I do understand that part, because at that stage what's the difference, right? You're advocating for Ireland, but then you're taking your your cash out of Ireland, that's questionable for sure.

SPEAKER_06 51:50

Yeah. The the way that I answered this guy though was um firstly, do you know how much he's actually giving? And the guy didn't know, and I don't either, but I know it's a huge amount of money.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Uh well I think d does his the currency of his um you know celebrity status is enough. He shouldn't have to give physical right. He's not gonna save the world with the the money that he's got. And yet he and yet he does. And why should he?

SPEAKER_06 52:10

Yeah. But um but I said to this guy, like, how much money have you given? And he goes, he goes, Well, I mean, I'm just a you know, I just live in New Zealand, I just earn a minimum wage, blah blah blah. Percentage. Percentage on scale. That's what I said. I said, in terms of the global uh wealth, you're in the top frickin' two percent or something, you know. So uh this is a bit hypocritical, isn't it? Because those people starving to death in Ethiopia are like, you're pretty fucking loaded from my perspective.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Yeah, totally, absolutely agree. But I do understand that, right? If you do see somebody who is advocating for these things and you kind of see them, well, going on private jet flights and and dining with royals and stuff, it's pretty easy to say, oh, that person's a hypocrite.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

And that's a pretty easy word and an accusation to levy against somebody like him. But I do also see the flip side is if you actually want to make a difference, you need to make a difference with people who are powerful enough to make a difference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

You know, you need to be able to get into the room with popes, presidents, and warlords and make them change their mind about something.

SPEAKER_06 53:10

Really, they need to decide are they arguing against Bono or are they arguing against capitalism?

unknown 53:14

No.

SPEAKER_06 53:15

Because capitalism and you know I'm on board. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I knew you were gonna say that. You know, you can't get around it. Some people end up with money, and he's one of them, you know, but you've got, again, very famous pop stars who seemingly don't do anything to help, and you've got this guy who does a huge amount to help, and we take a shot at him.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

We've had this conversation sort of before. Um remember in the eighties and nineties, the trope that seemed to be in in popular movies was the anti-businessman type uh successful. All the bad guys were businessmen or business people. Or they're successful and that. And then you've got the sort of anti-hero, the the you know, disint the divorced drunk copyhoff, or the diehard. Yeah, and uh so yeah, there's something to that. People you know, punching they feel like they're punching up, but really they're not. Yeah, you know, uh and they're not doing anything.

SPEAKER_06 54:04

It's lazy intellectually to think everybody in business is evil or you know, anyone with money is evil. I mean it's just complete nonsense. Um we should probably before we run out of time move to the real controversy, the real reason why everybody started to hate Bono in U2.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Exactly. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 54:25

So how do we all feel about this?

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Well I I I didn't give a shit. If someone wants to give me free music, like cool. I mean, if it if it got to the stage where I didn't have enough space and I had to delete something, then that might bug me, but I would just delete the free stuff, you know? I thought it was hilarious how much backlash there actually was. Yeah. Don't give me free sh I don't want free shit. It's yeah, it's weird.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

Um there is a certain arrogance to it though, you've got to admit. Yeah. Um having uh you know, using that access that you have to be able to go to Apple and say, hey, we've got this brilliant idea. How about you buy our album from us and give it away for free? You know, and I I I think I heard a rumour that that Apple paid them $150 million for that. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Then that is brilliant, because they probably weren't gonna make that. They wouldn't have made that. People were gonna pirate it anyways. Yeah, we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_06 55:15

I do understand if Taylor Swift or Ed Sharon or someone, you know, put their album on my computer, I'd be pretty ropeable.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

I would think the same, like just delete it if you don't.

SPEAKER_06 55:25

Of course. I'd be ropeable for about three minutes and then I'd delete it and move on with my life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

But I think part of the part of the initial issue was that you couldn't easily delete it. Yes, I remember that. Apple had to come back and change something within the album. Oh, that's pretty funny. It didn't help that the album sucked, too.

SPEAKER_06 55:39

Wasn't a great album, wasn't their best work. I I was thinking about it though, because in the context of the time, piracy had really kicked in some years earlier, the music industry was declining, and we were all in the middle of this ongoing conversation we we need a new model to for artists to earn, you know, because everything seems to be going the wrong way. And Spotify hadn't started yet. And do you remember Radiohead tried that pay what you want thing within Rainbows? So it seemed like there were a lot of these sort of giant bands who were trying different things. And I actually I really respect these bands for trying that stuff. I mean, Radio Head, I don't believe they ever released the figures, and I th and they never did it again, so I assume it didn't work.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

Right.

SPEAKER_06 56:22

And then you can I can sort of see the logic of going, well, it looks like we're not gonna make money from album sales anymore, so why don't we just make the album free and we'll you know, I didn't know they actually made money from Apple, so that's new information. But we'll get it on tour.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

It was pre-streaming, eh? Yeah, before Apple became streaming. It was like four or five years before, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

They might have been the one of the last few to get a nice big juicy contract like that. Maybe.

SPEAKER_06 56:48

And it it seems like um they had the right intentions, in my opinion. Like them and Radiohead and some of the other artists who were trying things are just going, how can we make the new version in the modern world with internet and digital downloads and things, how can we make this work? And then Spotify came along and ruined it for everybody, you know. Um but I I just think if that had worked and you know it had been a a a big success, we would look back on this and go, these guys were geniuses. You know, they thought of the idea first, they got it to land, you know, and it didn't work, and so we hate them.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Isn't that essentially what the streaming model is though? I mean you pay a pittance compared to you you would spend normally 30 bucks on a CD maybe once a month if you could afford it. Yeah. Now you've got spending you're spending 30 bucks and you've got access to millions of songs and you just play. And you still don't know what you're gonna listen to, right? So in a way, kind of music is free. Yeah. Really? Given the scope of what you have access to in your pocket. It's totally free.

SPEAKER_06 57:47

And it's also free in the sense that people's the way they value the music is dropped through the floor.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Yeah. And AI is not helping with that.

SPEAKER_06 57:55

Yeah. I mean, we we talked about it uh some episodes ago, uh, the idea I mean the um the figures that are showing that people are don't even listen to the whole song. I think you said your wife does that.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

She c she could be pretty bad for just skipping on to the next one. I heard the start, I like the start, okay, on to the next one. Yeah, yeah. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_06 58:11

But when in in back in the old days we had to buy an ep an album, we kind of valued it. Even the songs I didn't like or listened to because it's like I paid for this.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

I d I think that's more a symptom of the whole social media life. Attention span, yeah. Like the TikTok uh um world. I don't know that's uh necessarily a value thing about the people valuing the music as such. I don't know, but having said that, I did skip through Uk Tung Baby on the way here. Yeah. I skipped through sections of songs and then jumped to the one I liked and then missed skipped numb for some reason. I don't like that song. Oh yeah. I don't know why. It's n no shade on on edge.

SPEAKER_06 58:48

But you were you were skipping because you were trying to do a catch-up, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:51

I think so. Maybe that's what it was. Homework.

SPEAKER_06 58:56

Homework, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

That's what it was.

SPEAKER_06 58:59

Have we have we learned anything today? Have we discovered anything, or is this just some high-level international bullying on someone who ultimately has the best of intentions and has done a lot of good?

SPEAKER_01 59:11

Global Tal Party. I think so. And I uh and I think it had an effect on him because he's kind of gone quiet in that the on the world stage in the activism philanthropy space. But he's still doing the work. I mean I think recently he wa he went to Ukraine with Edge and they did a performance there with a band in right in the middle of the war and things like that. So he's still bringing attention to things. And and obviously they're still releasing music. It'd be interesting to see uh oh yeah, I I'm hanging out to see whether that the album's any good. Has the album been released? Or is it just that single? Just the single. Do you want to hear it? Yeah, that's Street of Dreams or something, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:55

I've always loved how innovative and creative they are. And I hear that and I'm like, the fuck have I just clicked on? And it kind of goes from being this weird almost Jacob Collier kind of crap. Right. And then U2 come then it comes back into U2. It's kind of awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Oh yeah, you can hear that Larry, that's a Larry B. Yeah. Oh, and the edge, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Sounds like Edge, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:40

It's a great melody. He can ride a hook, eh? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:53

A be free.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:00

You're fake for a pilot. You'll trust being an island.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:04

This bus gonna ride to sweet of trees like Sounds too plush to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

Really? I was about to say the sneer drum it sounded like a bit of a um an Indies drum sound. Well uh maybe a tea town on the sneer or something.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:22

Sounds quite roomy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

I was just thinking that going back and reviewing some of the old catalogue, one of the things I loved so much about his singing was how kind of raw and unrestrained and quite often sort of pitchy and all over the place it once wears. I'm not hearing any of that in this, and maybe that's just because.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:38

I mean, part of he's doing that kind of chanty singing style. He's not really singing in full bono voice.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

I think if you if you go back and listen to the earlier stuff, listen out for that Bobcat Goldweight um sound. Screechy kind of broken voice.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:55

I mean, also in in defense of Bono. He I mean how old is he now? 70s.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

I mean, it's part of it. Yeah, yeah. Like mid-70s. Mid-60s. None of these are 1960s. Yeah, so he's 66 now. Right. One maths is great.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:18

I don't know, it's pretty impressive to that was a pretty wacky bridge, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

That was a weird edit. Yeah. After the bridge, it's gonna just dropped right out.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:37

I will always respect people who try new things.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Totally agree. We've actually talked about that in the past where I think Rooney kinda uh lands in the side that a band should play their hits, and I'm like, well, if they're just playing the same stuff over and over again, why don't I want to go see them if I've already seen them play all those hits? I like bands that try new stuff that play new stuff and actually promote their new album.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

Doesn't always land, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:06

It's so cool. What's up gonna do? Are they gonna play with the hits or new things? We've only got the hits. We've only got hits.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

What was that thing about people not liking egos?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

No, it's pretty ironically though, we are actually learning some old songs to come back. Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:27

And play with is that the first time you all have played some of these songs for a long time. Yeah, 20 years probably. This is another song they released earlier this year, because they put another couple of EPs out earlier this year. That's right. And I just stumbled upon this one, which I thought was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Yeah, much more so.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:03

And it's got a more of a protest even like this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:06

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:06

It was written about Renee Good.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:09

Oh, yeah, it's a big Usher like a coffee.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:17

Already I'm liking this one a bit more.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

Is that lyric? I love you more than hate loves war. I think so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:01

Pretty cool, eh?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

Classic U2.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:03

Yeah. What's that EP call? I I'm not sure, but it came out earlier this year. Right. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'm definitely gonna listen to more of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

And you think it was in the light of the Renee Good shooting?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:13

I think it I think her name is even in the lyrics. Oh, right. Yeah, okay. Because I had a quick skim through that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

So look, I mean, obviously he's sticking they're sticking true to the activism and the shining lights on on the things that they care about. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah, I have never heard him comment on the current political situation. I think I feel like that stopped around the George Bush era when he clearly George Bush is a conservative on the you know, the right side of the liberal what you what I think you put um you two into that camp. And I I seem to remember people were saying, Well, why are you talking to this guy? You know, he's the enemy kind of thing. But he needed to speak to anybody to get these things like the hundred and fifty billion dollars he got for AIDS research under the George Bush Administration. So yeah. But still using that c that currency to get what he needs.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:06

I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean if you're if you're focused on a particular issue, there are people who are desperately in need, and you you're just going, I have to play the game to get the right outcome. I don't have a problem with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

No, absolutely. And those haters can get fucked, pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

It's very much a situation of don't hate the player, hate the game. Yeah. And I agree, I fucking hate the game, but I'm not going to hate on a player who's actually trying to play within the bounds of it.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:28

Yeah. Exactly. Do you find do you think also this is going to potentially open a can of whims, but do you think these days because things are so so polarized and so intense politically that uh a lot of people like him are uh possibly like I consider myself these days to be more politically homeless because I don't really identify with either side because they're so extreme and so crazy. Um if I was a big sort of figure like that and people are you know wanting me to comment on whatever, I think I'd be pretty cautious.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

I think you'd have to be, right? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know that you can land on the any well, I mean, if you're down the middle though, and I think there's a gap there, like you say, there's so many extremes now moving either far left or far right. Yeah. Um that maybe there is a a middle ground. Yeah. Um a middle ground voice that's missing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

What is your comment, Mike?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:21

No, I don't yeah, I'm not really sure. I I kinda I see exactly what you're saying. You don't want to lose any of your political capital, you know, and and now it's like more than I can ever remember, it is so divisive. I also do wonder if that is just, you know, amplification of the extremes on both sides that we're all seeing. Everyone's trapped in their own algorithm, and you know, it it is very much whatever you've clicked on or or slowly scrolled down once or twice, that's where you're gonna be fed. So I I think the reality of how most people actually view the world and interact amongst their peer groups and stuff is not nearly as bad as everybody's phone makes it seem. Yes, that's true. And I think there is a space for someone like a bono who has that sort of pull. Um, maybe he doesn't have it as much anymore. He's in his 60s, he's you know, maybe not quite as relevant. I think what what bugs me is that we don't see people at that same sort of caliber today really standing and fighting for this stuff. I think that's kind of what frustrates me and really disappoints me more than anything. I don't necessarily care one way or the other on an individual person. I don't like normally trying to to peel too much of the topics back. I think everyone's got their flaws, but I would like to see some more people with political power actually speak up and start talking um about these very serious issues and side on the the side of the people, you know?

SPEAKER_06 1:08:46

So you'd like some more bonos? Uh basically, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

Is there an artist out there who could fill that that bonno-shaped hole? Because the uh are there any massive bands like that anymore? Massive artists as big as the peak U2.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:01

I mean there are big pop stars, but Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:04

But will there ever be another U2 or a I guess co I f I feel like Coldplay was the last massive superstar band in that traditional kind of mould of of pop superstars. But they you've got obviously you've got the who you mentioned, what was their name? Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift earlier.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:20

Coldplay definitely were massive, but they also were essentially a pop band. Like they wouldn't take big musical.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

Well they were they certainly walked through the door that you two opened, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:30

Yeah, but they also weren't they didn't release a nocton baby halfway through their career and then come back and do Beautiful Day and you know what I mean? Like they very much found the formula that worked.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:39

And uh I don't I don't think I've ever heard them say anything of any particular interest.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

I think I think they've been political, but not to the extreme of like Bono and U2 have been, but is there I can't say I've paid attention, but would there be a voice out there now that people would pay attention to? Is there a big enough voice that captures the zeitgeist of the most of most of society rather than being, you know because as you say, you're stuck in your own algorithm, you only hear the things that you um I guess care about uh whatever YouTube or TikToks you care about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:10

Um I don't know I I I personally think that music has lost its footing in terms of relevance in society. I think we live in a world where Joe Rogan is really fucking Elon Musk. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean it's just moved, you know. Yeah. So it's a podcast. It's a podcast. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:29

Well, I think that is actually kind of interesting. The fact that you might not we've talked about this many times that you don't have that same sort of pop culture zeitgeist that we used to have. So maybe you don't have those ubiquitous artists that are massive for a large swath of people. That doesn't mean the messaging can't get out. You know, it's messaging in a positive sense where you actually have those sort of groundswell movements. Um, they normally do start smaller. And I think that's maybe can be, you know, people do have a more direct line of communication um with their fans and and with peer groups and communities now than they probably ever have.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

So I think maybe you'll never have that sort of, you know, one figure that that is is kind of spreading that messaging. But that ripple effect I think can be stronger than ever. So maybe it is um maybe the onus is on medium and smaller artists to be consistent with their messaging.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:21

I think it'd be stronger than ever in terms of it going viral and you know spreading fast. But does it have an impact? Because it seems like it causes a controversy and everyone's divided and then it's gone three days later. You know, I don't know if it remains.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:35

I would argue that it does, because I actually think the whole grandiose big projects, a billion dollars here, a billion dollars there, and we're gonna we're gonna solve world hunger, that stuff's all great, but I mean that's been happening for years, and we still have all these same issues. I I'm somebody who actually does sort of believe that those small everyday acts of kindness and gratitude do I believe in that ripple effect, you know. So so I would I like to believe that yes, it does.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:59

Um I think it's worth adding though that a lot of things do change for the better. I mean, if you go and look at some of the impact that Bob Geldoff has had, um there is there is some astonishing results that he's seen. He hasn't saved Africa, you know, but he's certainly turned a lot of places around. I I don't think you can take the view that nothing good has happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

No, that's true. And I think maybe having a little bit of that view is maybe what stops people from trying. Absolutely. We should at least fucking try.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:23

That's kind of what's going on with climate change, isn't it? It just seems too big. So we just kind of give up. Um I think that's the the responsibility of all the doomsayers as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

You think the rot of cynicism is set in? I mean, we've been through a lot in the last 30 years, right? Yes, it's hard, it's hard not to, right? It's hard not to.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:43

Yeah. So we need more bonos. Is that our conclusion?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

Yeah, we we need you back, Bono. We need you to or but does he have any capital left to spend? Not sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

I don't know if we need more bonos, I just think we all need to start giving a shit again. There you go.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:00

I like it. I can get on board with that. Yeah. Do you want to rouse our listeners to comment on the various platforms? I basically just did it, but go for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:09

Yeah, please uh share a comment. Let us know what you think. Um do you love or hate Bono and why?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:16

And just before we go, um, how do you feel about how we've renovated your podcast?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:20

Oh mate. I think you've done a great job. And I and I like the idea that you're actually doing research. Which is something we never did. Revolutionary. Yeah. Who would have who would have thought that some sort of uh structure might make things a little bit more listenable? Yeah, yeah. Not that you did you did a great job, but what was it I don't know, eight years between when we did when I went when I left the scene and you kept it going for a number of years, it's not like nine years in total.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:48

And I can't actually remember how many years you did, like two or two or three of them. Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:53

Oh well done. Yeah, yeah. Good job. Yeah. I I got a message this morning from Facebook that I'm a top fan. I had the option of being a top fan of your website, uh your um Facebook page. Oh, this one. Yep. And it said, Will you accept or decline? I have I'm on the fence. Decline that shit. I'm on the fence.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:09

If you accept, we're gonna bombard you with things. Well, it's really nice to see you again. Thanks for having me. Have you back on the mic and glad you guys got on? Yeah, looking good, man. Yeah, it's for fun. Awesome. Me too. And this is where Mike plays some outro music. Oh, and you've got your baby blue shake. Oh, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

What's the uh how fa how fast did that one go?

SPEAKER_06 1:15:04

Hey, maybe we can get Bobby to do the final ad read. Oh, is there another ad?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:08

Oh my god, it's become a capitalist nightmare this year.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

We've totally sold out. This episode was brought to you by Auckland Guitar Lessons. Head to aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz or email info at aucklandguitarlessons.co.nz to find out more.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:33

I'm so glad I asked him to do that. I've never seen that side of him before.