Our guest Adam Lean, the founder of The CFO Project, is on a mission to make finance fun. During this episode, he shares insider tips on how businesses can stay ahead of their books and ensure that all that hard-earned revenue translates to actual profits. Adam shares a detailed action plan and directs us on the right numbers to analyze, the red flags to hone in on and a scoring system that ensures that everything’s moving in the right direction.
Our guest Adam Lean, the founder of The CFO Project, is on a mission to make finance fun. During this episode, he shares insider tips on how businesses can stay ahead of their books and ensure that all that hard-earned revenue translates to actual profits. Adam shares a detailed action plan and directs us on the right numbers to analyze, the red flags to hone in on and a scoring system that ensures that everything’s moving in the right direction.
spk_0: 0:24
Today we will discuss that elusive topic. We all want to achieve profitability. This is Episode eight. Welcome to the needle movement Podcast. I'm your host, Stephen. Carl, thanks so much for supporting us early on and gonna bring in an expert today Really excited about it. Adam Lean, the founder of the CFO project. Adam is also the host of another podcast called P is for profit, which helps service and commerce businesses untangle their finances in order to achieve or profitability and freedom. Really bright guy. I know him from running Webinars together in the past, and he also has some courage because he was the first person I interviewed for this show. Looking forward to diving into this topic. Now let's get into it onto the show. I'm Stephen Karl talking you straight from Brooklyn, New York. So looking forward to diving into our topic. And before we start, I'll give a quick intro to his company called the CFO Project the CFO Project. Their goal is simple. To help clients go from feeling overwhelmed, stressed about cash to feeling confident, knowing that they're running their business like a CEO with the numbers driving the decision making Adam. Welcome to the show. Hey, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me. It's great to have you. So tell us, how did you get into the books? And what was your background leading up to starting the CFO project? Yeah,
spk_1: 1:55
so I was an accounting major in college. And so I thought, Hey, I'll become an accountant. So I graduated from college, became an accountant and ended up hating it. Actually, I work for about four years as an accountant, and I enjoyed where I worked. I just hated actually being an accountant because the accountant's job is to record what happened in the past. I wanted Toa actually work in the business and help the business grow, and and an accountant's job is to simply record what happened. T o make sure the books are right for tax reasons. And of course, that's important. But that's not really what I wanted to do, so I actually ended up starting my own business, and that business grew and I was able to leave my day job as an account it because my business grew and I happen to be an e commerce store, and this is back in 2006 and things were going really, really well, sales wise. I mean, sales were growing like gangbusters. But then around 2009 sales were still growing. She's great, but I felt something was wrong. The cash was not. They're in the bank account of my cash. My bank balance was getting smaller and smaller. Every month. My profit was getting tighter and tighter. Every single mob and the problem was I couldn't figure out why. At first I mean, it was frustrating because I was an accountant. I had that background I should know. And I started working my way out of that by breaking down my business and starting measuring the numbers of the business and understanding what is driving sales, what is driving profit, what is driving the cash will and understanding what I need to do to influence those numbers? So basically, I just started tracking everything. I started tracking my entire business on an Excel spreadsheet. It became very clear what things were preventing May from proving my profit and improving my bank balance. And so I started working on those things that I've identified, and then slowly but surely things started improving. So I started around the same time that thing started improving. I started working with other business owners and realized that they were struggling with the same things. There's profit, and their cash was getting tighter and tighter every single month and they didn't know why. And they didn't have the benefit of having an accounting background. So I started working with them and then fast forward. Several years I founded the CFO Project, where we give business owners a CFO or a chief financial officer to help them do one thing, and that's to improve the profitability of their business. We'll show them clearly what's going right on what's going wrong and what you need to do to improve the profits of the business. And actually, when we start working with a client will set one of the very first things we'll do is we'll set a a target for profit for December 31st in our mission is to help you hit that target for profit on December 31st. So, yeah, that's a That's a long answer to your question. That's how I got started and why I do this.
spk_0: 4:57
That's great. So, in fact, that it's I love that you are renegade accountant, but I I think we've talked about this before, a little bit on the outside. You know how CFO's can be the unsung heroes of companies because there's all this stuff going on and everyone's busy because there's so many things to do in modern business. But then the bookkeeper is that person that looks at the books and is like, what? This doesn't make much sense. Finances can be that case of the emperor's new clothes when the books aren't that strong, like when that happens for different reasons at a company. A lot of people don't want to speak up. I get it with that. Have you ever had a conversation with the president where you challenge them on their assumptions or even better, their numbers? It's It's not a fun conversation. Sometimes your numbers are behind the scenes and yeah, it's just it's a really tough task. But that's why the CFO role is valuable. Oftentimes, people really check their numbers only once in a while, not persistently and looking at them, or is definitely in their self interest. Yeah, I mean, the thing
spk_1: 6:07
is, everybody has to have a bookkeeper or an accountant to do the books to make sure the books are right. Because you have tohave the you have to know the score, if you will. You have to understand what's going on your business. Here's the problem, though, is that bookkeepers and accountants are getting paid to record what happened in the past to make sure that the books are right. But they're not there to help you understand the books to know what needs to change, to grow your business, to grow the profitability or business. That's what a CFO does for big businesses. That's why big businesses have them. You know the amazon dot com, one of the largest businesses in the world they ever CFO whose job is to tell the management team. Look, here's what's going on with the business financially, and here's the things that need to change or need to improve. And the CFO is like a guy from leadership team. Well, every business, regardless, if you're amazon dot com or you on a corner restaurant, every business needs somebody like that, and so, unfortunately, the bookkeepers are not designed or they're not getting paid to do that, so That's why I came up with this concept. We have a simple process for giving small business owners a CFO to do those things at a very, very reasonable price point of impact. Our mission is to make sure that our fees covered buying it in the additional profit.
spk_0: 7:33
And I see that also where even things like marketing subscriptions, they're so many different ways to people don't keep track of their expenses. So there's definitely that value in bookkeeping. I also see with when people are maintaining their books. Sometimes your past performance is not necessarily an indicator of how you're going to grow in the future. You know it's popular to go to your last 12 months or your last season, and here's you a good compass. But I find that depending on your goals that you're just comparing what happened in the past, and that assumption that your past is your future can often be incorrect.
spk_1: 8:15
Yeah, I mean, you really have to look at three things. You do have to look at what has been going on in the most immediate past, so they, like, say, the past 12 months so that you can look at trends. But then you also need to set a I call it a target. Other people may call it a budget or gold setting, but you need to set some sort of target for profit as well as all the other drivers of profit, like sales, gross profit expenses. And then you need a constantly measure yourself against your target, right? And those three things, looking at trends from the past, setting a target and then measuring yourself against your target will help you understand what parts of the business are hurting your efforts or helping your efforts at meeting your profit goal.
spk_0: 9:03
Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is also very consistent with what we do in other parts of our life. Like for health. If you exercise and you want to hit certain goals, you're going to track it more, and you're gonna track what foods going into your body. You're gonna track how much you exercise. So this is kind of a book's version of the same thing. Let me go on to another question because I think a lot of our perception of business comes from the news and the companies we hear about on the news were always hearing about Amazon like you mentioned, or companies like Uber and we work. So how do you think an emerging business is different from a lot of those larger businesses that we hear about on the news or in retail circles?
spk_1: 9:51
Yeah, there's really That's a great question. There's one thing that separates those businesses from every day business owners. And that's that those large businesses that you've heard about, the ones that you've mentioned, we work uber, always have investors. And so the management team has this pool of money that they can do what essentially what they want with. That's not a reality. With most everyday regular businesses, the pool of money you have to work with is either coming from debt that you personally have to take out or is coming from your own personal savings. It's not coming from investors who are just simply investing in your business. So that's why the ubers of the world can grow and stay in business is because they have all these investors. The downside of that is that it doesn't really discipline the management as much on making sure they make a profit. Most of those businesses. A lot of those businesses you've made and many other big businesses are not really all that profitable for variety reasons they want to do. They're growing so quick, and they have to grow so quick that they're just not possible. But that's not a realistic situation for most 99.9% of all businesses in the country. You have to make a profit, or else you're gonna go out of business because I mean, think about it. There's only cash. You have to have cash in the bank account to keep the metaphorical lights on right? So if you run out of cash, you're out of business. Well, how do you get cash? Well, there's three ways one isn't getting investors. And like we just talked about that's not realistic to you could take on debt, which is very realistic. Most business owners take on personal debt, but that's not ideal. The third way, the best way to raise cash for your business is to make it through the business, make a profit and keep that profit in cash so that you can use that profit to grow your business, get more employees, get more inventory, expand locations, do more marketing, whatever you need to make it yourself. And that's really hard to do without some sort of guide helping you understand what needs to change to grow The prophet.
spk_0: 12:06
Yeah, I was gonna say, with we work is kind of interesting because I have a wee work office and Adam, you get some credit because we work Had that botched I pO and I think you were the first person to talk to me about it. You were like the first horseman of the Apocalypse saying, Have you looked at that AIPO? It looks a little strange because the valuation was based on a tech valuation when we work is really at its core, a real estate business. But there's an entertaining critique of the We work I p o made by Scott Galloway and why you, professor and it's called We W T F. We want the fuck definitely recommend a listen on. It's very entertaining, and I'll put in the show notes. But Scott Galloway said he said there were red flags that I P. O the size of Kansas, but I think what you're talking about, where it's it's apples to oranges. But I think the thing that I feel bad about with emerging companies is they read these headlines and they get a lot of foam. Oh, from it They're like, Oh, I want to be like uber. I want to be like be the Amazon of this. People want to follow the practices of companies they hear about in the news that makes total sense. But often those companies that generate headlines, they're not always focused on near term profitability, like some of the companies we discussed. So beware of the foam. Oh, fight it, fight it a little bit. I mean, especially with some of these case studies. You see a marketing, ah, lot of customer acquisition stories. They're from companies with seven figure marketing budgets, which means they probably have a much larger staff working on it, too. I should mention copycat strategy in general, like it tends not to work well, either More thought has to be put into it. I mean, that's the idea that we learn from the industry and we get that inspiration from the big names, and then you just adapt it to your use case, and that's how it can be more effective. You know, it's just a different way to do the business. And there's a cost to some of that to taking that route. Like you're saying where you have those investors, you know? But let's go back to the topic of raising capital that I think this is an interesting one. And there's not so much resource is what have you seen about how companies how emerging businesses will raise money these days? Do they take out loans? They go angel investor, or what resource is are there out there for them?
spk_1: 14:41
I mean, in my experience, working with just every day small businesses, whether they're breaking watery commerce or whatnot, it's really just two sources. Debt credit card loans. Essentially in the second source is personal investments, slash friends and family investment. So either to using your own funds or using your friends and family. And that's most small businesses in the country or just normal everyday businesses. They're not the unicorns or whatever of the world that are on the front page of the magazines, and so it's tough to get capital. I mean, it really is a bank. You can't go into the bank with a slick looking business plan and say, I want, you know, $100,000 in in alone for my idea there. Nobody's gonna give it to you. It's really tough. And so that's why most businesses air started with just personal investments or and or mix of personal debt.
spk_0: 15:39
Yeah, it's true. There is. It is a tough environment out there, especially for a business that starting out there are some emerging resource is out there. It's getting better between the Small Business Administration s B A loans. Businesses should also look into grants that are available, like there are some available to female owned businesses mine already owned as well. And also, once your business gets some traction, it gets easier because there are now companies out there that you can show that you're already a profitable business and that you just need more capital to doom. Or there are definitely some outfits someone I can think of is called Clear Bank that help you to do more. That can give you the capital to do more. But it's still difficult. Having capital for your company is not as easy as, say, walking into a bank.
spk_1: 16:26
Yeah, absolutely. That's why making a profit is the best way to fund your business to self fund.
spk_0: 16:34
Yes, absolutely. It makes everything a lot easier and less stressful. So how about why do most businesses fail? Like, what are some of the money pits that emerging companies can, unfortunately, get into? The reason
spk_1: 16:51
why most businesses fail is because they run out of cash. I mean, that's basically it. According to the Small Business Administration, over half a little over half of all businesses will never see their fifth birthday because they just run out of cash. Well, the question is, why do they run out of cash? Well, there. I mean, there's several reasons, you know, it could be, You know, they didn't have a product fit. They couldn't have to figure out a way to sell a market and sell. There's a variety reasons, but it all bulls bag, too. They were not able to find a profitable way to stay in business, so something was off either. Sales was offer. Their gross profit margins were off for their expenses were off like they had too many expenses that are overhead, where they had too much debt service and they just simply could not. They just simply ran out of cash before they could take off. And there's a variety of reasons, and so they ran out of cash. But the real reason why business owners run out of cash is because those business owners did not understand the financials of their business. Because regardless of what type of business you own, your business is still responsible for making a profit and for having positive cash flow, meaning more money is coming into the bank leaving. And so it doesn't matter what type of business you run. A tech company, e commerce, a bakery, doctor's office. It doesn't matter. You still have to do. Do those two things make a profit and have positive cash flow? Will. Both of those things are financial numbers, and most business owners are not focused on the financials. They're usually experts in the craft of the business.
spk_0: 18:33
Yeah, I think you hit on a lot of the things that happened. Definitely, I was gonna say there's personality wise. There's some dynamics to that thing. Sometimes with leadership teams. Transparency is, I think in our culture transparency isn't always encouraged where the owner of the business or people in charge are reluctant to share their numbers. But I think when there are problems, it's really great to have that transparency, like if there are problems with on the number side and the president of the company is only one that knows that, then there's no way anyone could help. But if there's if the company has a culture where the leadership is approachable and there's some transparency, sometimes that cos the founders can be seen as Demi gods or like a you know, it's interesting leadership leadership has always arrive. Seen it like companies are kind of a cult of the person who started it like I used to see at a startup that I worked at the president who started it. He wore a blue shirt and khakis, and then a month after month, there were more people that started to wear that we put too aware of, you know, a blue dress shirt and khakis because they're just following the culture. I would
spk_1: 19:58
say it is the business owner or the founder or CEO. Whoever if they completely understand the financials, other business, and they know what to do about it and to improve it. Then they don't need anybody else that they don't have to share their financials. But that's not reality. And even if they did it, that was reality. There's probably better things that the owner that this CEO needs to focus on throughout the day. So basically, most business owners just don't understand the financials, and therefore they don't know what to do with it to improve it. So you need to share it with somebody. And I'm not saying you to make it public for your whole team. Well, for the whole business. But you need to share it with somebody to get somebody else. And that's why big businesses have see oppose. The CFO is the one the ones that interpret the financials and make it clear to the CEO what needs toe happen. And so every business owner, founder, CEO needs somebody in their corner that does that. And that's why we're in business, because you would think that in your account owner's bookkeeper can do that, and they probably can. But that's not where they're getting paid for, and usually they're not really equipped to do that. You need somebody that can look at the numbers and interpret them in a way that makes sense to you, the owner, and then together come up with a plan for improving profit.
spk_0: 21:21
Yeah, definitely. And I. And also even having some numbers available to the team members that can help with some of the absolute like adaptability, like something like the product margins. And you mentioned that before, and I thought that was a great point, cause the product margins for the company are important to know, because just when things happen, let's just say the marketing team comes in and says, Hey, we want to spend $500,000 on this If they know the product margins where they can add up certain things and they're gonna know there's not money for that initiative, that it's not realistic. So just things that like can help get that be sick framework of how the company operates financially.
spk_1: 22:07
Yeah, I'm a big fan of giving every single person in the business some sort of Mattrick to meet. Regardless, if it's the, uh, one of your senior managers or the lowest personal totem pole, you need somebody. Every single person needs some sort of Mattrick or a k p. I keep performance indicator. What? Not that they are responsible for heading. If everybody hits their numbers, their metrics, then the business as a whole will meet their profit target. But everybody needs something so you don't have to share the profitability with your entire team. But you can hear to your point. You need to share something either sales or gross profit or expense targets or what not?
spk_0: 22:52
Yes, and I think with K B. I's, too. They're not always perfect. Numbers like the perfect gets in the way of the good. Absolutely nowhere. It's just have a good estimate, and at least you can think about how you can improve the business and how the business can adapt in the future to grow. Absolutely. Okay, so we're you know, we're talking about some of the issues, so let's take it in another direction. How can you make how can you really make your business profitable? What do you see as the ways to do that?
spk_1: 23:22
So I like to break down the business into the most granular levels, like so basically you're taking your business and breaking it apart on paper and then looking at each part individually. So think of your business is a machine that sitting in a warehouse somewhere this machine, the job is to create cash. It's Ah, it's a manufacturing machine whose job is to create cash, right? So you wanna make sure that each part of this machine is functioning at its highest level? Because if one part of the machine is not functioning well, then the whole machine lags and you're not producing as much cash. Much profit. So break down the business into the smallest level. So here's an example. Let's say that you own a commerce store that sells pet supplies, and you're a revenue goal of $100,000 this year in a profit goal of $20,000. Well, that's great and all, but you need to break down that business into the most granular levels. So let's look it so you could break it down by sales and then gross profit and then expenses. So those three things is there. There's a three main areas that impact profit Well, then you can take it a step further and break down sales by average transaction value and number of transactions. So now, in order to improve the profit you could improve sales will. In order to prove sales, you can improve the average transaction value and then the average transaction, increasing the number of transactions that you could take that a step further and break that down by category. So how can you improve the average number of transactions and average transaction valued by product category? So if we're selling pet supplies and one category could be pet food, another category could be pat toys. And so how can you improve the number of transactions that are made on the pet food category? And how can you improve the average transaction value of a pet food category while at the same time you're measuring the same thing for the pet supply, the pet toys, all that rolls up to sales for the business, which rolls up to impacts profit? And that's why I'm looking at an income statement last month doesn't really give you that much inside. You need to break your business down into the into pieces and start measuring and improving each individual piece as low as you can go. Break it down is to the most granular level as possible
spk_0: 25:56
Okay, so let's let's walk through this. We can walk through this model because you're mentioning. I think merchandising is a great point because a lot of times companies have different categories, you know, they might have 5 to 10 different categories, and it's hard to keep track of what's bringing home the business. You know, that's a great point. Okay, so let's walk through out, like, you know, So how you would, you know? So this company, it's ah, it's a pet supplies company. So month one how this translates to your service Month one. You would send them a scorecard Ray on how they're performing. The
spk_1: 26:40
very first thing we would do is we would take their entire business and break it apart, just like I talked about. And we would set targets for every single thing in their business for sales and all the sales categories for gross profit for each category and then expenses. And then we'll set a target for each one of those, and the now will result in a actual profit target for the entire business. So now we we know what target we're aiming for for the business. We also know how we're gonna get there because we've broken down eight individual piece than every month. Once the books are closed will take all this financial data and all the non financial data and add it to what we call a scoreboard. We're tracking all those pieces of the business and, well, clearly show you what part of the business is helping your efforts or hurting your efforts, improving the business, improving the prophet of the business. And then, once we determine that, then we'll come up with an action plan. We call it an action plan, which is 12 or three next steps that need to happen this month. And this is the most important next steps that it happened in order to improve the prophet of the business. That way you understand what's going on with your business because you're looking at your school board. But now you know, you also know what to do about it.
spk_0: 28:01
Okay, So how the action plan? Let's say like, Okay, let's walk through this example. We're talking about a pet supplies company. Hypothetically. So how would the CFO project? How would you work with the client on that? What would you first dio with the client to assess their situation.
spk_1: 28:18
The first thing we would do is we would set a target for the profit of the business. And to do that will break the entire business down into pieces like I was mentioning earlier. So we'll understand all the pieces that drop sales, all the pieces, Dr Gross, profit and expenses. And then we'll set targets for those individual pieces. Well, all of that rolls up to to coming up with a profit target that the business owner likes and is excited about hitting. So once we set those targets than every month wants, the books are closed. We're going to, um, understand. We're going to take all that data from the previous month and see how on track we are with hitting the Prophet. And so some areas are gonna be on track. Some are not gonna be on track, and so I'm gonna be sort of halfway on track. Then we'll take it a step further and determine the 12 or three areas of the business that need working on the most. And these are the most important areas that will keep the business on track to make the profit target because there's a There's a ton of things that you can do in your business. But if you have a 1,000,000 things on your plate, nothing's gonna happen. So you need to focus on the few most important things. And if they are the few things that you're gonna work on, they might as well be the most important things that will move the Prophet Needle the most.
spk_0: 29:44
Got it. So we were talking about the You have a pet food category and maybe that's doing well. But your pet toys, you wantto increase your sales on that. So I guess I was gonna ask with an action plan, like does with your clients as the business, How do they execute on an action plan like, Let's just say the action plan is marketing and double your sales and the president's thinking. That's my problem. I don't know how to do that. Like, how do you How do you solve those issues that might not be the president's in their strength,
spk_1: 30:21
right? So the actual plan is actually made up of two components, and the first this is what we call a objectives. So we're gonna come up with upto three objectives. So if the objective is to get more leads, that's a big objective, then the second and it is very ambiguous as to how to accomplish that s o. The second part of the action planner will be called next step. So for every objective, there's up to four next steps, and then together we're gonna come up with those next steps. So what is the very first step to take to hit the objective of getting more leads? And then we're gonna come up with a second step in the third step, but maybe a four step if needed. But that way you're very, very clear on what steps are needed to accomplish the objectives. And once the objectives air hit, then you know that you're well on her way to hitting your profit target for the year.
spk_0: 31:11
That sounds good because a big obstacle is that business leaders air time starved and they struggled to see the whole puzzle. You know, just like that analogy that you use before about your business being an engine. So they know the revenue needs to go up, Though they're not aware of the entire landscape. You know some of the other things. Things like their merchandising or their lead generation were the efficiency of their warehouse. And these could be the specific things that are holding their business back.
spk_1: 31:45
Yeah, you got to break the business down into the most granular level that makes sense and then start measuring and tracking and setting targets for each one of those areas.
spk_0: 31:57
I got it. So for your dashboard, I'm curious to hear about this, too, because this dashboard sounds pretty awesome. Do you have formulas you use, or is it integrations with, you know, third party integrations that you're doing to create the dashboard?
spk_1: 32:13
It's a mix because we need data, whether it's financial data and non financial data. So we'll get your ink of saving a balance sheet and cash flow and flow from your counter software, which is usually QuickBooks or zero or what not. And then we'll get your non financial data. So maybe the number of leads and number of transactions or number of science that you have. We'll get that from wherever you keep that, even if it's just in Excel spreadsheet, we just need to start tracking the most important things right, and then we'll update will populate the scoreboard. And the key is keeping an organized so that you it's very clear what's going right and what's going wrong.
spk_0: 32:52
No, that sounds great, because I I like dashboards better than reports coat off. In
spk_1: 32:59
the last sporting event that you went to, I guarantee nobody passed out a giant report of what's going on in the game. You looked at a scoreboard, which is a giant dashboard hanging in the sky. It makes it very clear how the game's going. And that's really why you, as a business owner, need to know, How is your team your business doing?
spk_0: 33:23
Yeah, how's it doing right now? And I think, as you need to dig deeper, it's possible. Two. But I think once you go in the dashboard will identify the things that you need to work on that you're probably not aware of in the first place. Absolutely. Okay, great grade. So before we close, I mean, thanks so much for coming on the show.
spk_1: 33:45
Of course, Thanks for inviting me.
spk_0: 33:46
If our listeners want to talk more with you about how to enhance their businesses, finances and profitability, how can they reach you?
spk_1: 33:53
Yes. Oh, my website is the CFO project dot coms a th e CFO project dot com, and there's a bright green button on the top, right that says Book a call. So if anybody wants to get in touch with me and that's, ah, literally a link to my calendar, I would love to speak to any business owner and just talk about your business. I love talking to business owners and helping make their business and their financials become more clear.
spk_0: 34:21
You know, that sounds like a really good opportunity, and a lot of times I think like Adam, we do a similar thing. So I think a lot of times with these conference calls, you know it's not a hard sell. It's just Ah, it's a good way to listen to problems and to get insights from an expert. And then you figure out if you're you know, if it's a good fit or not. So it works. It works very well and you learn both ways.
spk_1: 34:45
Absolutely. We will only work with the business if it's a win win situation. If if we think we can help them, then we'll work with what we don't think we can help the business then. Well, we won't. I mean, this is a partnership we have toe. It has to be a win win situation.
spk_0: 35:00
Yeah, absolutely right. Because it's the best use of all of our all of our collective time. Totally. So thanks so much for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having
spk_1: 35:08
me. I really enjoyed it.
spk_0: 35:09
Me too. I'm sure I will talk to you soon, Adam. Yep, Of course. Thanks again. Adios. Thank you so much for listening. This episode is sponsored by needle movement. You know, movement specializes in digital marketing and strategy for entrepreneurs. Ran's a giveback and those that are just curious on how they can do more Business is evolving. And that's one reason why coaching has become such a phenomenon this year because companies can't keep up. That's why everyone is hiring coaches to make them better in marketing, branding and e commerce. Learn more about our affordable coaching packages at needle movement. We function like a second brain toe, a marketing team. You believe that it's not just one area you can get better on probably a serious of optimization tze and that's what makes us unique. Telling you were to get that best return on investment, which channels work, how to optimize email marketing usto affordably, sharing our formula for high converting marketing strategy. And, most important, you steer you clear of all those rookie mistakes. If you like what you heard and you're here with me still, so you must have enjoyed a nugget er, to head on over to needle movement dot com to find other episodes, show notes and more. We're still in the early days of this podcast. So would super appreciate if you headed overto iTunes or your favorite podcasts App to subscribe and write a review for the show. Be sure to tune in next week for another new episode.