Welcome And Why Gulls Matter

Speaker 0:04

Hi and welcome to Make Space for Nature from Nature Scot. I'm Kirstin Guthrie, and in this episode, Claire Gordon and I dive into the world of gulls. Birds that have earned themselves quite the reputation, but whose story is far more complicated than the headlines suggest. We're joined by two guests from Nature Scott, Alistair McGugan, Wildlife Manager, and Lucy Quinn, Marine Ornithology Manager. Together we'll be unpacking why gulls get such a bad press, why so many species are actually in decline, and what each of us can do to help them. And perhaps learn to live alongside them a little more peacefully. So hi Lucy, and welcome to the podcast. So I think let's let's kick off by cleaning up some confusion and going right back to the start. Can you explain, you know, what is a seagull and which ones do we need or do we tend to see in Scotland?

Speaker 1 0:55

Hi there, Kirstin. Great to be here talking about these amazing birds. So, firstly, there's actually no such thing as a seagull. We have six different species of gull that commonly breed in Scotland. One of these includes Kitty Wecks that tend to only really live by the sea on cliffs or on islands, and these are really small gulls that exclusively feed out to sea. So it isn't one of the species that people normally see in their towns. Unless you're lucky enough to live in Dunbar, you'll know there's a little Kittiwake colony right by the harbour there. But the main species we're going to be talking about today include three large gull species and two smaller ones. And the best way for people to identify them is to look firstly at their size, then the colour of their back, and then the colour of their legs. So the largest of all is called the great black-backed gull. It has a wingspan of around 1.5 metres, and the gull has a really distinctive deep voice, a true black back and pink legs. So it's hard to confuse this one for any of the other species. And it's mostly in coastal areas or in islands rather than inland as well. Next up, we've got the two that most people will know from their towns. This is the lesser blackback gull, which as its name suggests, has a paler, more of a dark grey back and has yellow legs. And then the herring gull, my personal favourite, which has a very pale grey back and pink legs. So they're very similar in size to the lesser blackback gull. Then lastly, we have the two smaller gull species, including the common gull, which is a bit of a misnomer because it's no longer common. And it's like a smaller version of a herring gull in that it's also very pale, but it has little yellow legs and is much more delicate looking in its face, and they have a higher pitched voice. And then the black-headed gull is our last one of the day, which as its name suggests, has a very distinctive black head in the breeding season and red bill and red legs, so it's one of the more easy ones to identify. So, yeah, lots of different gull species we have in Scotland.

Life Cycle, Migration, And Feeding

Speaker 3:09

Wow, that is quite a few. Um yeah, I always struggle to tell them apart, apart apart from the black-headed gulls, uh, they're obviously quite easy to tell a difference. But um, and you know, when or where, or you know, you've said uh where some of them you would tend to see, but you know, where and when are you most likely to find all these gulls?

Speaker 1 3:28

Yeah, so perhaps it's useful for me to firstly go through a typical life cycle for a gull, and then I can describe some of their favourite habitats after that. So in uh late March, April, they start to establish their territories and they'll lay their eggs towards the end of April. Then in May and June, this is their main egg incubation time period, and this is when the gull parents share the duty of incubation, and after 28 days, a little chick will hatch out. Chicks will then leave their nest in July, and it's during this particular part of the breeding season, for these few weeks when the chicks have less the nest that the parent gulls can be particularly protective over their young. After breeding, the gulls then disperse to their winter locations. So for some, such as the herring gulls, this may mean staying relatively close to where they breed, but for others, like the lesser blackback gulls, they will travel thousands of miles south in winter in Europe and beyond into Africa. And for herring and common gulls, we also get an influx of Scandinavian birds coming over. So some of the gulls that we see in our towns over winter may not actually originate from Scottish colonies at all. Then come February and March, gulls will be returning to their breeding locations and starting setting up their territories all over again, and the migrant gulls will head back home to Scandinavia. Now, in terms of the types of habitats the gulls use, they're really adaptable species and they use lots of different habitats. So, for example, we looked at data from tracked herring gulls, and we saw that they were using marine environments, probably feeding on fish, coastal environments feeding intertidally on invertebrates and perhaps on mussel beds, using agricultural land where they're probably going to be picking up insects and seeds, urban habitats as well, where they'll be scavenging what they can, and then some kind of hang out around harbours and ports and seeing if they can get anything coming off the boats in the harbour. And just like you or I have a favourite cuisine type, the tracking data demonstrated that certain individual birds have definite preferences of habitats, but when you look at the whole population level, there is a wide range of habitats that they're using, and many of these involve exploiting human food sources.

Swooping, Noise, And Food Snatching

Speaker 2 5:53

Hi Lucy, this is all really interesting to learn. It's it's uh quite amazing to find out their varied um diet, because I think a lot of people will associate gulls with chips at the seaside. That sometimes is the the the only interaction people might have with gulls. Um and so when it comes to public opinion, I think it's quite divided, isn't it? Um could you maybe give us an insight into some of the behaviours that maybe um give gulls a bit of a bad reputation?

Speaker 1 6:25

Of course. Um well as gulls have moved into more urban areas, some of their natural behaviours um can indeed, as you say, cause issues for some people. As I mentioned just before, they are indeed protective parents for this short period of time. They want to deter any perceived threats. So when people are close to their chicks, they may scream or swoop until that person moves away, which can you know feel a bit unsettling for some people. But it's actually not in the gull's interest to mount any prolonged attacks. They, you know, have vulnerable chicks to care for and they do want to return to them as soon as possible. Um so if you move away, you know, they will stop that um you know that kind of uh rallying call to get away from their chick. Um the second behaviour relates to their noise. Um, gulls are naturally very sociable birds and they're very interactive with one another. They always tell each other their news of the day. Um, and whilst their noise is not the most pleasant of all the bird calls, it is their natural call, and really you can think of it as being just part of their chat. Another characteristic they have relates to their food snatching behaviour. Now, gulls will naturally steal food from one another or from other birds, you know, they can be quite sneaky, really. Um, but in an urban environment, this now also applies to stealing food from humans if they get the chance. Um, studies have shown actually that food snatching is carried out by the braver individuals, so not all gulls are going to do this. Um, but because gulls do not have the kind of feet that can pick things up, they will generally snatch things using their beak. Gulls are super intelligent and they can also learn from humans, so they can adapt their timings of feeding to be, for example, on a school lunch break or at a tourist season hotspot. They're constantly learning from us. So if they see us eating it, they can tell it must be food and some of them are going to have a go.

Why Gulls Nest On Roofs

Speaker 2 8:27

And do we know why gulls nest on roofs? Would they not be much happier, surely out on a coastal cliff somewhere?

Speaker 1 8:36

Yeah, so I think to answer this one, Claire, it's it's also it's kind of it's kind of worth mentioning that historically, herring and lesser backbackgulls have indeed been recorded as nesting on rooftops since the 1940s in some Scottish coastal towns. So several communities have indeed lived with gulls for decades. But what we do know from the last gull census is that some of our gull species, the ones I've mentioned here, herring lesser backback gulls, are coming into more urban roof nesting environments. And they're doing this for a number of reasons, mostly relating to good feeding and nesting opportunities. So, firstly, urban areas can sometimes have a milder climate. Buildings can create this microclimate effect and provide good shelter. Also, the street lighting in towns can also help prolong the feeding opportunities for gulls. As I've mentioned before, there are indeed these good food sources in towns, whether that's scavenging or even predation. For example, gulls in Glasgow have been seen catching and eating rats there. Towns, of course, can provide safe spaces away from ground predators, either with their roof nesting opportunities or they can nest uh in fenced-off areas as well. So, really, we we see this all adding up to them being attracted to these inhabited areas. Um the food sources in the marine environment where they may have fed from more in the past may have decreased. So because they're now so adaptable, they move to where they can now get food and safe nesting opportunities.

The Real Scale Of Declines

Speaker 10:13

Wow, they just sound such clever birds, just as you say. And you know, it is obviously a real topic of conversation for a lot of people, you know, and some communities do report being overrun with gulls. But actually, there's evidence that the broader picture is pretty grim for gulls with some species really struggling. Can you tell us a wee bit more about this?

Speaker 1 10:34

Yes, that's right. All all five of the breeding gull species we've been talking about here today have been suffering declines. So, for example, black-headed gulls have had a 75% decline, greatback gulls have had a 63% decline, um, and the remaining gulls have also been declining overall. And it's it's worth pointing out that Scotland forms an important part of the overall population for some of these species as well. So, for example, common gulls in Scotland, they they form 90% of the whole of the British and Irish population. And for great batbat gulls, Scotland holds around 50% of the entire British and Irish population. And there's multiple reasons for why we might be seeing the declines that we have. One that's been in the news in recent years is the highly pathogenic avian flu, or HPAI, as it's also called. Gulls were one of the species that were hit hard both in the breeding and non-breeding season by this disease. And because they're so sociable, as we mentioned before, it's possible they're more vulnerable to passing on diseases to one another, such as HPAI. Gulls can also be caught on fishing hooks and in netting for those gulls that are feeding out at sea. More generally, changes in food supply is also important to mention. So whether this is due to climate change affecting their prey species, or whether this relates to disease, a kind of a decrease in fishery discards or landfill closures, this can all be having an impact on gulls that rely on these for food sources. Then we also have developments that can play a role. So onshore and offshore wind farms can directly impact gulls, whether that's through collision risk or displacement or disturbance. And we know that some gull species are amongst the most vulnerable to collision risks because of the height at which they fly. As well as that, their scavenging nature makes them really vulnerable to picking up pollutants in their food as well. And as I mentioned, naturally they're ground nesters. So in general, you know, they're vulnerable to predation from mammals as well. And finally, habitat changes can affect their more natural nesting habitats that may be forcing them elsewhere. So as you can see, um, as is the case for a lot of our seabird species in Scotland, gulls are facing quite a lot of different pressures that are all adding up cumulatively. And because of this, they are indeed included as a species, um, a species on the Scottish Seabird Conservation Action Plan.

Why They Seem More Common Now

Speaker 13:12

So that's uh yeah, that is pretty grim, really, when you you pull all that together like that and give us the bigger picture. And you know, so why do some people feel like gulls are are thriving when in fact they're under threat? Is it is it purely just because of the interactions that some people are having with the gulls?

Speaker 1 13:28

Well, yeah, as we've been talking about before, um it does come down to this shift in distribution that seems to have occurred, particularly for herring gulls and lesser blackback gulls. So now about 63% of our herring gulls and 78% of our lesser blackback gulls in Scotland are now nesting in coastal or upland urban areas. So the numbers of overall gulls can still decrease, but it's this shift in distribution that can result at feeling like there are more gulls in a particular area. And you know, it shows the importance of trying to get good survey coverage of gulls that captures all the nesting environments that they're in. And this can be really tricky to do for roof nesting gulls, but it is something we're working on. And the fact that gulls are moving closer to us and using our resources, you know, this reflects the lack of suitable resources in their natural environment. So the tracking data we have on gulls has also shown just how wide-ranging the gulls will go to feed. So we had one track gull from its breeding site on the Isle of May off the east coast of Scotland that decided to travel all the way down to England to go to a landfill site in Coventry. And then we've had herring gulls travel from the east coast of Scotland right across to the west to fear near to feed near Glasgow and also across in the Saulway Firth. So the gulls that we are seeing in our towns are not necessarily all nesting here. They could just be commuting in to feed, and then they're travelling back to their nest because you know they can travel tens of kilometres, if not hundreds of kilometres, to go to a favoured food spot.

Why You Should Not Feed Gulls

Speaker 2 15:02

So hearing about the the wider picture and the challenges that the gulls are facing around finding food, some of our listeners might be tempted to feed them.

Speaker 1 15:12

What would you advise be there, Lucy? Yes, of course, I mean it does seem like a tempting option when we're encouraged to feed our garden birds, you know, why not the gulls? But it's definitely not a good idea to feed the gulls. For a start, it can encourage them to become more bold and swoop down on more people to snatch food. It can also encourage them to remain in an area if they think they're going to be able to get fed. And also it's just not great for them to eat human food. In an experimental setting, gulls showed a strong preference for more natural fish and seafood diet compared to a more terrestrial urban diet. It's much better for their chicks as well to be getting natural protein compared to the more starchy foods like bread. Some studies have shown that per body condition in chicks relates to this per nutritional value of human starchy foods. So the best thing for the gulls themselves is to not feed them as tempting as it is for some.

Legal Protection And What Licences Do

Speaker 2 16:11

Good advice there. Okay, thanks, Lucy. So let's bring Alistair in now to explain about Nature Scott's role in helping people and gulls live alongside each other. Um just so we're clear, Alistair, though, gulls are protected by law, aren't they?

Speaker 3 16:27

Thanks, Claire. Yeah, no, they are. Um under the Wildland Countryside Act, um all birds are actually protected. Um some are protected more than others at particular times of year. And when it comes to gulls, their nests, their breeding sites, when they are breeding, they are protected. And it's also illegal to kill gulls at any time. But in terms of the things that we're interested in in and around towns in particular, it's important to know that we can move them, and we'll talk about this later on, I think, but we can move them on before they start breeding. But once they have started breeding, once they're making their nests, they're then protected.

Speaker 17:05

Great, yeah, it's good to have that clarity around that. Um and obviously it's great that legislation is in place and it's really there to protect uh the birds, but for some people living in coastal towns and cities who say they perhaps don't enjoy living closely with the gulls, um, you know, impacts on their daily daily lives. What what can be done?

Speaker 3 17:24

Yeah, I know exactly. And and and and and suppose that's at the the heart of much of our wildlife management conundrums, isn't it? How do we protect a species which is in conservation, has conservation issues, yet still be able to deal with some of those acute problems that people do experience from trying to live with these. And that's what a lot of wildlife management is about, is trying to bring that together a little bit. So we can, we do recognize that despite the fact that they are protected during that breeding period in particular, that there are times when do you know what they we just cannot, in terms of public safety in particular, we need to do something about it. We need to take active intervention. So there are licenses available for folk, particularly where we're around um like primary schools or health centres where you've got vulnerable people and you have gulls that are quite rightly, as as as Lucy has been pointing out, protecting their checks, coming down and swooping down on top of them and possibly causing a problem. So we do have the ability to be able to license for that. But what it's not about is providing a license where they're just being a nuisance, you know, when they're just being loud at four o'clock in the morning, or they're just flying around, or they're defecating in particular areas, which is not that great a problem, i.e. it's not a food area, that would be one of our licensable areas or licensable purposes. But it is about how do we how do we balance that that living with a wildlife where they then do cause acute problems, with also balancing the need for them to be protected to make sure that we protect their conservation status?

Who Manages Gull Problems Locally

Speaker 19:02

Yeah, and and you know, obviously Nature Scott have a role there, but you know, whose whose job is it to deal with the gull issues? Is it just Nature Scott or the councils, communities, you know, individuals, or or is it everybody, a combination of of all of these uh groups?

Speaker 3 19:18

It has to be all of us, doesn't it, really? You know, um we all have different roles, we all have different ways that we can help with this. Um Nature Scott obviously has a role in terms of it being the regulator, so it provides the licensing um approach where they where certain uh situations do require that license for lethal control in particular or nest removal. But local authorities also have that um responsibility, if you like, in some ways, about thinking about well, how can we manage the the spaces, the properties that we have? Uh Lucy talked about um the them knowing about primary schools, about them being able to think about when when when there's a food source available. Well, can we stop them from coming into that? Can we can we encourage the the kids in the primary school not to be throwing their litter around the place? Can we be providing litter bins that are actually gull-proof? And then for ourselves as individuals, can we think about how we are going about? You know, don't feed them. That that's a really not good thing to do, not just from their biology, again, as as as Lucy was was hit was was highlighting. So from their own welfare point of view, feeding them our McDonald's is not a particularly thing to do. But also how how do we stop other people from doing that, thinking that it's a good thing to do? So there's a whole host of things that all of us together can be doing to be able to bring together sort of like an area-based management approach to this. So we've been working with a number of businesses in different towns and and cities to say, right, well, where are there certain areas that are absolute hotspots? Where are there certain areas where we need to think about what type of practical mitigation we could be putting in play, in other words, stopping people from feeding? Where are there areas where we've changed the way that that the bins are actually collected? So the refuse collection element has has changed. Where are there areas where we're being really clear to people about really do not feed them there? And then where are there areas where do you know what? Yeah, across the board, those are the types of of buildings that we probably do need to put some licensing in play and to be able to help us to live with them and encourage gulls not to be there and move them to other places where where they can be accepted, where they are. In other words, how do we how do we encourage, how do we look at the way that we build some of our roofs so that we're encouraging the gulls to go from one place to another place where they are more acceptable, where they're not causing the same degree of problems?

Speaker 2 22:00

Maybe tell us about a bit about some of the work Nature Scott's been doing recently to to support um towns and and and cities that have been coastal communities with with gull problems because it has uh there's some areas have have reported that you know they've had you know quite a hard time lately with gills. So what are the sort of things that we've been we've been going out and and helping some of these communities with?

Speaker 3 22:21

Yeah, no, so we've run uh now four we had a a forum in Inverness, a national forum in Inverness, and then we ran four regional uh forums, round tables you want to call that, where we brought um different players together, different folks together, different interests together, uh local authorities, businesses, um folks that um have gulls um in terms of their conservation at heart, to try and find a way through how do we actually live with gulls in our local communities? How what are the practical things that we can be doing? And how do we build up a more strategic view, if you like, um, in terms of how we deal with them? So instead of it just being one property trying to shift them onto another property, how do we look at the whole community and say, right, well, okay, yeah, these are the key areas, so primary schools, uh health centres. How do we how how do we encourage those girls not to be there and how do we encourage them to be in in in other areas? And that's about building that community approach. So, yes, we each have different elements to it, we each have different uh parts to play. So, Nature Scott, it is about providing the correct license at the right place, the local authority, it's about how do we uh find um the the create way in terms of bins, in particular, refuse management, in terms of the local community, how do we encourage people not to be feeding them? And then how do we also um recognise that we're probably dealing with different gulls in in our own community? So, you know, we have gulls which are breeding there, but again, as Lucy has talked about, how we've got a number of gulls which are coming in, foraging, you know, they're they're breeding elsewhere and coming in. Each of those have a slightly different way that we need to measure, we we need to put uh mitigation, you know, we need to put management measures in play. So what we've been trying to do is to say, can we can we bring in these communities, can we bring that together? So it's not just about thinking about an individual property issue with gulls, but what does that mean for the community and how can we manage that at a community level?

Practical Steps To Prevent Nesting

Speaker 2 24:33

That's great. Thanks, Alistair. Um so that's great to see that sort of wider, broader picture as well that you've explained there, but bringing it back to the individual who perhaps maybe has an issue right now or or or has in in previous seasons with with gulls nesting on the roofs and swooping down on them whenever they're leaving the house. So, on a practical level, what can people do in those kind of situations? What what advice or support do we have available?

Speaker 3 25:00

So again, it goes back to that bit about what types of gulls are you dealing with? Um and I don't mean that in a species way, I mean that in terms of are they in there breeding or are they uh gulls that are coming in to to forage? And there are different things that we can be doing in there, but but one of the main things is don't feed them, full stop, just don't feed them. That's one of the important things that we can do. The second thing is thinking about, well, how do we manage our waste? You know, so not only just how are we doing commercial waste, but when we're walking along the street, are we making sure that we're putting our food, our waste food, into a bin that the gulls cannot get to? So those are things that we can be doing ourselves. There's then elements that we can be doing, which is things like um sort of trying to prevent the gulls from from being there. So you'll have seen various areas have got spikes on them in terms of that. There is the various areas, particularly big flat roofs, where there is netting across them. There is an issue about how you use that netting so that we don't cause a problem for for those gulls and that are trying to come down into that. There's also the bit about, well, can you prevent them, can you disturb them before they start setting up um their breeding area? So you can remove the nests um during the winter, for example, but then can you then use different techniques such as scaring techniques, which is either audio or kites, to stop or to encourage those birds to move on to somewhere else. So there's a raft of different things that we can do that doesn't require lethal control. But ultimately, that is there if that is needed and we need to put it in play.

Final Takeaways And What To Do

Speaker 2 26:46

I think you can find a lot of that advice on our our website, can't you? For anyone that's maybe got a problem right now and would like some some information, they can go to our website to find that. Um okay, so uh finally a question to both of you. Um uh what message would you like to leave our listeners with? Maybe if there's one thing you'd like them to take away from today's chat about gulls. Lucy, we'll come to you first.

Speaker 1 27:11

Sure, I'll try and uh I'll try and do it in one, but it might be a little more. But yeah, for me, I mean, you know, gulls are a species that can live for up to 30 years, they gain this huge amount of information over their life, they're truly intelligent birds that have had to adapt to our changing world in order to try to survive where they're facing these multiple pressures. So I think I would love for people to be able to see gulls as our very own urban wildlife, which play an important role in our overall ecosystem. And I'd encourage listeners, you know, the next time they see a gull, just to take two minutes just to watch some of their behaviours, whether that's watching them with their partner or whether it's watching them do their funny foot stomping dance on the grass to bring the insects up, you know. We can witness animal behaviour right in front of us, and that can be a really lovely thing to connect with nature like that.

Speaker 2 28:04

Fantastic. Thanks, Lucy. And Alistair, do you have any key messages that you'd like to leave listeners with?

Speaker 3 28:11

Oh, yeah, it follows on from Lucy there. Um they're brilliant, they're absolutely fantastic things. Um, you know, they're so social, they're so gregarious, they're they love each other in some ways. And and I hate anthropomorphising or whatever that word is, um gowls like that. But but they are, they're they're absolutely brilliant social creatures. So don't be scared of them to start with. Just don't be scared of them. Um yes, you might have to be a little bit more assertive with them. So do that, be that with them, but don't be scared with them. And secondly, think about not how do we how do we dispose of our litter, how do we dispose of our waste, how do we how do we make sure that what we're not doing is providing cheap trash food for for the gulls. Because A, it's not good for them, and B, it's not good for us either.

Speaker 2 29:03

Great. Thank you both. So gulls do get a bad press, but they're survivors doing their best in a changing and challenging world. And we have to remember that many are actually in decline. So secure your bins, don't litter or feed them, gull proof your home where you can, and give them a chance.

Speaker 29:22

Thanks for listening. For more ways to connect with and help protect Scotland's natural world, go to nature.scot.