What Does The Bible Say?
30 Minute Discussions Of Bible Subjects
What Does The Bible Say?
What Does the Bible Say About Christ's Church or Men's Churches #5?
Fred and Glenn begin this episode noting that Paul predicted that there would be a falling away or apostacy that was a departure from the original gospel soon after the death of the apostles. We note that God has always provided a pattern for His people to follow. Noah was given specific instructions on how to build the ark. We note that Moses was given a pattern for building the tabernacle and those implements in it. We also talk about the pattern for the temple that God gave to David and the fact that David gave that same pattern to Solomon to follow in building the temple in Jerusalem. We then move our discussion to note that the New Testament contains the pattern for Christ's Church as well as the pattern for the Christian's behavior. We then begin to look at the historical record of the apostasy that Paul predicted would begin among the elders or bishops. We talk about the creation of dioceses that occurred in the second century and how this departed from the New Testament pattern. We then look at the changes that were instituted relating to the pattern for the bishops and the resulting hierarchy. We look briefly at Constatine's Edict of Milan that he issued in AD313 and what it did. We next talk about the Council of Nicaea and what it did in AD325. We close out this episode by noting when the first universal Pope or Bishop was named and what the structure of the church of that day resembled. We will begin the next episode talking about Constatine granting pagans church membership. Take about 30-minutes to listen in on our discussion. Have your bible handy so you can verify what we are saying. There is a transcript of this Buzzsprout episode provided for your convenience.
This is a presentation of the Woodland church of Christ, meeting at 3370 Broad Street in Sumter, South Carolina. We meet for worship on Sunday at ten thirty am and five thirty pm. We meet for bible study at nine thirty am on Sunday and seven pm on Wednesday. If you have questions or comments on this lesson, you may email them to Fred Gosnell at fgosnell@ftc-i.net or to Glenn Landrum at scbamaboy2003@yahoo.com.
Glenn:Good afternoon. This is Glenn Landrum with what does the Bible say? Presented by the church of Christ at Woodland in Sumter, South Carolina. Our address is 3370 Broad Street extension in Sumter, South Carolina. Our mailing address is post office box, 3171, Sumter, South Carolina, 29150. Tonight, or this afternoon, it's myself, Glenn Landrum and Fred Gosnell. Arnie Granke Is is not well tonight, so he is missing with from our presentation tonight. If you'd like to get in touch with either myself or or Fred, my email is scbamaboy2003@yahoo.com, and my phone number is 803-464-1232. Fred can be reached at fgosnelI@ftc-i.net, or his phone number is 803-968-2945. If you by by chance, wanted to have a Bible study, you can get in touch with us, and we will provide you with with a Bible study and get you some some information so that you can study and learn more about God's word for yourself. We have been talking about Christ's Church, as opposed to men's churches or people's churches, people, that churches that people have started. And it's important that we we learn about Christ's Church, and what Christ desires for His church to be. We've talked a good bit so far about the structure of the church, who was the owner of the church, that Christ had ordained the church, and he had established the church, and we talked about how worship was conducted within the church. Well, we all know that that Christ and His Apostles and those that were writing letters to to the churches in the first century predicted that there would be a falling away or an apostasy. So that's what we're talking about tonight, the apostasy, or departure from the gospel, which would soon occur after Christ's death and his resurrection.
Fred Gosnell:Well, of course Paul said that that that was going to occur, and in First Timothy, four, one through four is, is probably one of the places. And there, Paul said that there, he said, Now the Spirit express, speaketh expressly that in the latter time some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, speaking lies and hypocrisy, having their conscience here with hot iron, forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth, for every creature of God is good and nothing to be received if it received with thanksgiving. So Paul says that there would be a departure. And of course, he said that he also said in Second Thessalonians two, one through four, that that this would occur before the Lord returns. And in Second Thessalonians two, there, notice what he says to the Thessalonians. Now, we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ, by our gathering together unto him that you be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter, as from from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand, that no man deceive you and by any means, for that day shall not come except there come a falling away, an apostasy as Glenn noted. First, and that man of sin be revealed and son of the son of perdition who opposes and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that He is God. Of course, we've we've talked about a little bit about the fact that that the inspired writers provided a pattern for the church, basically when we talked about the church, and it's the basic characteristics and everything that represents a pattern and but there are passages that talk about that, right Glenn?
Glenn:Yes, they are, indeed. I am going to mention one thing other concerning this, this departure that was predicted. Well Paul, when he was speaking to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20 verses, 28 to 31 actually warned them of this situation. He says, Take heed, therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock over which the holy spirit hath made you overseers to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves, shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch and remember that the space of three years, I have ceased not to warn everyone night and day. With tears, Paul is saying that for for quite some time now, for three years, he mentions that both night and day, he's been warning people and and he's been very serious. He says he's to the point of tears that he's warning them that these things are going to happen, and he's saying that they're going to come in among those overseers, those elders, those leaders of the church, come in among them and and lead people away. It was very serious thing. I so Paul was warning them to to to be aware. Then in First Timothy 1, 16 says, how be it for this cause, I obtain mercy that in me, first Jesus Christ might show forth the long suffering for a pattern. That's what God Fred mentioned just a moment ago. To them, which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Well, what is this pattern that that we talk about? What you know Jesus mentioned in in John, 14, six, he said, I am the Way, the Truth and Life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me. Well, Jesus has told us that he is the source of the truth. He is the way that we should follow. So the things that he has said, the things that that His apostles and those disciples that came after him taught, those those become the pattern by by which we need need to follow what with how we need to live, how we need to operate the church, and how we need to worship. These things are, are the pattern. So I'll read one more. Then I'll pass it to to Fred. Second, Timothy 1, 13 is another passage that mentions this this pattern, Second Timothy, 1, 13, uh, I'm turning to it in my Bible. Don't have it written down. So it reads, Hold fast to the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me in faith and love, which is in Christ, Jesus. So Paul simply says, Follow what I've been teaching you. And how can we be sure that following Paul is correct? Paul was an apostle, and he was inspired by the Holy Spirit, through Christ, or through the through, through by Christ, through the Holy Spirit,
Fred Gosnell:Exactly, exactly. And in one other passage in in John, the reason it's important to follow this pattern is because Jesus says, in John 12, 48, says, He that rejecteth me and receive not my words hath one that judgeth him the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him the last day. So, so we will be judged based on whether or not we follow what Jesus says and follow His words. Yet, the Hebrew writer talks about this pattern in Hebrews eight, verse five, and there notice, notice what he says, he says, Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle for See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern. And the word pattern there the passage you read the word form is the same word for for pattern. Uh, interesting. It's a the word is tupose. It's the word that we get a type from. You know, when you we don't use many typewriters anymore, but when you type something, the whatever you when you hit the key, whatever was on the key was transferred to the paper, and that that was the the type, or the tupose, or the pattern. Then, then notice, he says that that Moses was told to make all things according to the pattern. And notice Hebrew or Exodus, 25, nine. And here it's the Lord speaking to Moses. He says, According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, Even so shall you make it. And he goes on. He talks about the Ark and all the things that are in the tabernacle. God gave Moses a pattern to follow to to make those things. And of course, Moses did that. He followed what God told him.
Glenn:Now I would advise you to to read both in Exodus and Deuteronomy, where God gives not just this. This is almost, I would compare it to, like when, when we get, like a model car, or we get some kind of other model or something, and we have instructions, detailed instructions, how to put individual pieces together. God gave Moses specific instructions about everything, from from, from the detailed dimensions of every everything in the tabernacle to what it was, exactly, what it was to be made of, that included the curtains and the walls of the of the tabernacle, the the posts that held them, the the Ark of the Covenant, the wash basin and everything, had specific instructions about how to, how to, to make those things and to set up the the tabernacle. We we talk about another example sometimes, and that's with when the flood was about to take place. God spoke to Noah, and God gave Noah specific instructions about how to build the ark, about what kind of wood, the dimensions to to build it, the number of the stories or floors, have a, a single win,window, a single door. Had had Noah not followed those instructions, that would not have been a successful event. So therefore we can take those as examples of what what we are to do today, when Christ has given us the instructions about what the church is, how, how the church is structured, how to conduct our worship, and things of that nature, that is the pattern by which we should follow.
Fred Gosnell:Well, you know, there's, there's one other place that I found Glenn. Uh, remember David, David wanted to build the temple, and God didn't allow him to do that. But God gave David the pattern for it. And in in First Chronicles, 28, 11 notice what it says, 11 through 13, it says, And David gave to Solomon, his son, the pattern of the porch and of the houses thereof, of the treasuries thereof, of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlors thereof, the palace of the mercy seat, and the pattern of all that he had by the spirit of the courts of the house of the Lord and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things. So God has always provided man with a pattern to do the things that he wants them to do. And of course, man is required to if they're going to be faithful to God, to follow those patterns. So this is not a new concept. So in the New Testament, we now have the church, and we have the pattern that has been provided to us by the inspired writers now.
Glenn:Asolutely. You know this, this pattern that God gave David for the for the temple. The temple was basically just a rec, restructuring of the tabernacle, except it was going to be a permanent, permanent structure, rather than one that could be be packed up and moved. The tabernacle was, was it was basically a mobile tent, huge mobile tent, which they put up, they took down, they carried it around with them. They put it up again to to the instructions that God gave them. Now they were going to have a temple that was going to be a permanent structure. Those are the those are instructions that that God gave. I'm going to read another passage here by that's going to it's going to split. In Titus two verse, verse one says, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine. This doesn't use the word pattern, although this sound doctrine equates to the pattern. It's, it's the manner in which thing things are done. And then if we skip a few, skip a few verses down to seven and eight, In all things, showing thyself, a pattern of good works and doctrine, showing uncorruptness, gravity and sincere sincerity, sound speech that cannot be condemned, that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed having no evil thing to say of you. Well, this shows us that the pattern goes beyond just physical things. Now we see that the pattern actually goes to our manner of living. In the King James we would we would read that as communication, your manner of living, the way you do things, the way you live, the way you conduct your life. There's a pattern by which we we do those things, and God requires us to do that.
Fred Gosnell:Well, of course, we started out reading the things that Paul had said about there was going to be a falling away, an apostasy, and that this would start among the elderrship, among the elders there in Acts chapter 20. So, so if we look, we have a history from the time of the first century to our time right now. So what we when we look at history, we find out that what Paul said, in fact, did occur, and it started pretty quick, as as he said to the to the elders there. Of course, the elders were also called bishops or overseers or pastors, presbyters. All those are terms to for the same individuals. Just your presbyter is an older person. Bishop is an overseer. Elder is an older man. Pastor is one that feeds. He's a shepherd. So pretty quick, overseers were specified, of course, in Acts 20 verse, verse 28 and of course, the the bishop there, or the elder, he had to be married. He had to be the husband of one wife. First, Timothy, chapter three, one through seven or eight there. So what happened there is that around the second century, second, third century, depending on your source, there that the local churches that were in local areas were then that bond and banded together by the Popes or the bishops. And by the way, the the bishops early on were were called Popes. The Of course, the pope means a father. Of course, Jesus and let no man call him so call father on the earth. So. So then they created these diocese which which would be an area that included several local churches, rather than independent local churches. These were now banded together, and then a bishop would be over two or three of these local churches.
Glenn:When we read these passages, particularly in first, Timothy, three, in Titus, one about bishops and deacons, we learn a few things about them. We learn, first of all that that there would always be more than more than one overseer or bishop or pastor within a congregation. We also learned that they, they're, they're only in that position for a local congregation. They they don't oversee a number of different congregations. And if we think about that, we can see the wisdom in doing that, that you have autonomy of church, of of individual churches, that individual churches are able to control themselves and not be controlled by a larger organization. The only one that we learn, and we've talked about this before, we've given scriptures on this in Colossians and Ephesians, that the only head of the church is Jesus Christ. So, so we have Jesus Christ as the head of the church, and then it's the local, local churches that are control, that that are overseen by elders, or we could call them bishops or the or or overseers or pastors or shepherds. They're all the same. So as Christ, and by Christ, we have his word that controls and then we have these leaders in individual congregations to lead.
Fred Gosnell:So, so the bishops, evidently, what happened was that that, of course, all the local congregations, you have at least two elders, at least two two bishops, and they are one is not more important than the other. Each, each of them have the same responsibilities. But then what what occurred was a particular bishop would would take upon himself more power than than than another bishop. And then that's when they started to put together these diocese and these several local churches together. And then one bishop would be controlling what, what occurred in in that diocese. And of course, what, what Glenn mentioned was about the local churches. When you when you look at Revelation chapter two and three, we find out that there were seven local churches that were written to we find out that five of them were criticized, and two of them were faithful. So when, when churches are independent and autonomous, if one local church starts doing the things that Jesus criticized those in Revelation two and three for doing that doesn't affect the another church. So those five were doing things that were wrong, but it didn't affect the church at Sardis or the church at Philadelphia. They were still faithful. So so then, generally, the the diocese was, was set up and and the bishop that was in the probably the largest city or the largest urban area, he became the one that was more powerful than than the others. And, of course, the the time period of this early second century or so, some, some sources say so. And then this, the office of the bishop became not a servant of a local church. He became a more powerful individual over a diocese, over a larger large area, over two or three different churches. And so, ad 300 or so then, then the bishops of Rome became little bit more recognized than than than other ones. And so we see this change from the biblical pattern, the New Testament pattern, to a pattern that men have started to change and to set up for themselves.
Glenn:You know, if, if we kind of transfer this to what we see today in in the world, I'm going to use this term in the world of Christianity in general, we we see that most, most groups, have some kind of structure, where they have either diocese or they have national headquarters, they have groups that over that oversee many different congregations. And the congregations are not autonomous themselves. They, they are not making their own decisions. They they only carry forth the the instructions that are given them by the higher organization, which does not necessarily include Christ as the one that that makes the determination. So this is kind of what, what Fred has described, that we began with just elders in local congregations had some some others that came in as elders, and they had different ideas. They thought that maybe they or one of them, should be the head or lead elder, and then one of them decided that they should oversee many different congregations, and it proceeded beyond that to to where we saw what the Catholic Church did. In AD 300 the bishops of Rome, Constatinople, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandra were elevated above others and were titled patriarchs, positioned subordinate to as Fred mentioned, the Pope, but above the the bishops In AD 313, Constantine issued the Edict of Milan ending the persecution of the church, and called the Council of Nicea in AD 325 to resolve the issue of Christ's deity. The first creed, the Nicene Creed, resulted. Well, all we have to do to understand that that Christ is is deity, and above all is is read His Word. We don't have to have some person, a Pope or someone, tell us that that Christ is deity. We read that in in Christ, in Christ's word, in God's word.
Fred Gosnell:Exactly. You know, Jesus said, If you believe not that I am, you'll die in your sins. I am. Is the I am. I am God. So, so then, so, so we see that. We see the progress of this falling away, and these uninspired men have decided to change the pattern to make something a little bit more pleasing to them. So we get to about the sixth century, and the we have, of course, we have the main patriarchs are in Rome and Constantinople, and they had the most power. So, so there. So then, of course, power corrupts absolute. Power corrupts absolutely, I think, is the is the saying. So, so there was a struggle between these two powerful men to decide, well, who's going to be the one that's in charge of everybody? Well, about AD 606. Was when, generally we understand that the first pope, the first universal Pope, or Pope or universal Bishop was specified, and that was Boniface, the third. And so, of course, then the church organization has, then has evolved into a massive pyramid structure. You've got the Popes at top, of course, well, a little bit later on, of course, there's a there's a split between the the church at Rome and then the the Eastern Church. But anyway, you have a pyramid. You have the pope universal Pope. In this case, Boniface is in charge. So then all of the rest of the organization is below that, and you have bishops, certain bishops in certain localities, they have less power than the Pope. And of course, our recent situation where the pope died and they replaced him with another individual, and then they had a conclave, and they had a certain amount of individuals that decided this, this new pope. So, so the the, the structure is set basically in in AD 606, for the Catholic Church. And the first universal Pope was Boniface, the third.
Glenn:And so, beginning with Constantine, pagans were granted church membership. Well, all we have to do is read, read Scripture. Uh, Peter went through this, this, this situation. Uh, Peter was, was a was kind of afraid to approach the the Gentiles, which would be considered pagans, because he had grown up and and been trained, been taught as a Jew, he was not used to accepting Gentiles into the Jewish religion, and therefore, as a Christian, he he found it, found it difficult to do that. But God, in a vision, visited him and and gave him this, these instructions, and taught him that Gentiles were to be accepted. And that's resulted in Cornelius being baptized, a Gentile, and becoming one of the first Gentile Christians. So Constantine didn't need to grant pagans church membership that that had already happened by Christ's doctrine that, and that was one of the reasons why he was here to to bring the Word to to the whole world, rather than just the Jewish nation.
Fred Gosnell:And of course, what what they did, was, well, you know, we're out of time. Glenn,
Glenn:I see that.
Fred Gosnell:We're going to have to, we're going to have to start next time talking about this, this change of allowing pagans to become members of members of their church, quote, unquote. Of course, that would be the Catholic Church and and, of course, this, this has a lot to do with the change in baptizing people from the New Testament pattern to a pattern instituted by uninspired men. So we, grateful that you chose to listen to us this week, and we certainly invite you to dial in next week, we'll continue this discussion on Christ's Church and the churches of men. Have a good week.
Glenn:Thank you very much.