What Does The Bible Say?
30 Minute Discussions Of Bible Subjects
What Does The Bible Say?
What Does the Bible Say About Christ's Church or Men's Churches #6?
Arnie, Fred and Glenn continue their discussion of the apostacy or falling away that Paul said would occur from the original pattern for Christ's Church. We discussed some of the small changes that began in the early 2nd century in the last episode. Beginning with Constatine, pagans were granted church membership which changed a number of church practices. Constatine had himself sprinkled as baptism on May 22nd in 337AD right before he died. We discuss again the pattern of baptism in the New Testament and examine a number of changes that appeared after the first century. There also appeared a number of changes relating to the Lord's Supper, mainly by the Catholic Church. Several other changes were made including the addition of instrumental music. We discuss a good bit about the original pattern and the words supplied to us by the inspired writers of those words and why it is important to follow what those words say. Take about 30-minutes to listen in on our discussion. Have your Bible handy so you can verify what we are saying. There is a transcript of this Buzzsprout episode provided for your convenience.
This is a presentation of the Woodland church of Christ, meeting at 3370 Broad Street in Sumter, South Carolina. We meet for worship on Sunday at ten thirty am and five thirty pm. We meet for bible study at nine thirty am on Sunday and seven pm on Wednesday. If you have questions or comments on this lesson, you may email them to Fred Gosnell at fgosnell@ftc-i.net or to Arnie Granke at agranke440718@twc.com or to Glenn Landrum at scbamaboy2003@yahoo.com
Arnie:Good. Afternoon. This is what does the Bible say? Brought to you by Woodland church of Christ in Sumter, South Carolina. We are located at 3370 Broad Street extension, just about two miles east of of Shaw Air Force Base. And so we would welcome you to come and worship with us and and study with us. And we would enjoy having the opportunity to to meet you. We've been talking about some Bible matters, and I think, I think that Glenn is going to introduce something this afternoon, aren't you?
Glenn:Past few weeks I have made, made it a note to comment that this is what does the Bible say, and that our our lessons are centered around what does the Bible say? And it's important that we understand what the Bible says about particular things. And we're talking here about Christ's Church. So it's important that we know what the Bible says concerning the Church that Jesus built. We began last week talking about the apostasy that would would come. Now many people believe that the apostasy is is yet to come. But the apostasy actually started in the first century, and we spoke a little bit about that last week. And now apostasy, what it means is to depart from the the truth, or depart from the pattern. When we've spoken about the pattern as well, this is God's pattern about how we how we organize the church, how we worship in the church, and how we do things in in the church. So we mentioned that Paul in Acts 28 or 20, 28 warned the Ephesian elders that there would come people in among them and lead Christians astray and lead them away from the truth. And that's exactly what we're talking about, leading Christians away from the truth. And we believe that these things are have been happening since the first century and are still happening today. And therefore we'll pass it on to to Fred to give you a new part of this apostasy.
Fred Gosnell:Well, we had talked a little bit about Constantine, some of the things that Constantine did, and it's just interestingly enough, today, on the 22nd of May, in AD337 Constantine, on his deathbed was, they said, sprinkled or baptized. Well, he wasn't immersed, the way that the Bible, New Testament tells us, he was sprinkled. He was on his deathbed. He was about to die, and he had them sprinkle him with a little bit of water, and thinking that that was going to take care of all of the sins that he had committed up to that time, and he died later on that day. And a number of the things that we talk about in the apostasy occurred before, as Glenn just pointed out, it started among the eldership. And of course, everything doesn't go away from the pattern, just all at once. There's a it's a little bit at a time. And when, when Paul said that there would be elders that would among them, would draw away disciples. So you'd have one elder that decided he was going to start a group there, he'd draw some disciples away. And then it progressed. And by the time we get to Constantine, it's 300 years, you know, AD330 some, some 300 years or so from the time the church was established. So a number of the things that that he started, we'll talk about. And of course, the the baptism that he was provided was sprinkling, and again, that was contrary to the pattern that we find in the New Testament. In the baptism in the New Testament was immersion for the remission of sins in the name or by the authority of Jesus. That was one of the apostasies.
Arnie:Yeah, and I think it was you, Fred, that pointed out here in in one of our discussions, the fact that the word for baptism, or to baptize, actually in the original language, has has to do with immersion. And so sprinkling is not immersion. It is absolutely completely burying somebody in the in the water. But the the first time that infant baptism was advocated was in AD 150 and that was certainly not immersion. That was by some kind of sprinkling or possibly, possibly smearing the the infant's head with with water. Novation was an individual living in the third century and in and in 251AD, Novation was poured, had water poured over over him. And then in AD 400 infant baptism was decreed to be mandatory in in the churches that had begun to grow, what basically had become at that point, the the Catholic Church and the The pope a couple of 100 years later, in 735 actually approved sprinkling as as a form of baptism that was that was acceptable. And so it's important to think about these changes. They didn't all occur at one moment. They come in little pieces, a little at a time, and everything seems kind of low, low key and and isn't always very noticeable there when that happens. I'm looking at Acts chapter chapter eight, and beginning in in verse 35, Philip opened his mouth and began to at the same scripture and preached unto him, Jesus. And he's speaking to the to the Ethiopian eunuch. They're on the they're they're riding together on a chariot there, and he's speaking about Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water. And the eunuch said, See, here is water. What does hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answered, by the way the word baptism there, remember, is is immersed. What does hinder me to be immersed? He answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still. They went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he immersed him, and when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no more, and he went on his way, rejoicing. And then Philip goes elsewhere that's talked about in in the passage. So what we're looking at when we're talking about baptism is not sprinkling, it's not wiping the wet forehead. It's not pouring water over an individual or any of the things that are are invented by theologians. Baptism is immersion, and it's what God has required, what Jesus authorized, and certainly what John the Baptist had authorized. Are you
Glenn:Yeah, I believe I am. And I believe another good example next? of baptism, even though it doesn't mention water itself, Romans, six, three through five a, is a very good example. It's, it's actually an a reenactment of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. And it says, Know you not that so many of us as were baptized, and as Arniementioned, baptized means immersed. Baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection. It uses a couple of words here. One is buried when some when someone or something is buried, it is complete, being put completely, completely under. And another word, is planted. Planted is also the same way, when something is planted, it is put into into the ground. This is a reenactment of Christ's death, burial and resurrection, and this baptism that we go through is exactly the same. So we can, we can be assured that baptism is an immersion, or going under and coming up out of. We had mentioned, I think that infant baptism was was authorized in AD 400. The pope approved sprinkling as baptism In AD735 that they was mentioned, and sprinkling generally, was generally used as a common practice by the 14th century. Now, all these things that we're mentioning mentioning as apostasies, there is no scriptural reference to to show that they are authorized, and therefore we, all we can do is show the scriptural reference for what is authorized,
Fred Gosnell:Of course, and one of the reasons why it's not authorized is because the Bible doesn't say it. And and Glenn, a couple of weeks ago, had had pointed out a couple of passages he reminded us of Deuteronomy, chapter two, verse four, that the Moses wrote that, and he said, or chapter four, verse two, I got that backwards and and Moses wrote that. He said that, You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish ought from it, and you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God, that which I command you. And again, he reminded us of Revelation, chapter 22 verses 18 and 19. Of course, that's at the end of the Bible. And there John wrote, he says, I testify to every man and hear the words the prophesy of this book. If any man shall add to those things, God shall add to him the plagues that are written in the book. If any man shall take away from the words the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of His holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. And then in the middle of the Bible, in Proverbschapter 30, and I think it's verse, verse six there. Solomon writes there, and he says that he starts in five. Every word of God is pure. He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. Add them not unto His words, lest he he reprove thee and thou be found a liar. So when we talk about apostasies, we're talking about departures from what the Bible says it and we have warnings from the in the beginning of the Bible, in the middle of the Bible and at the end of the Bible, not to go beyond what's written. And why people do that, I'll never know.
Arnie:I think you know you mentioned lest, lest he reprove thee. That's a pretty scary thing. We ought to be concerned when, when God reproves. We need to make some changes, and we need to listen to what he what he tells us. And I think a lot of times men, men fail to do that. We just go along and say, Well, I think this seems like a good idea, and I think God will like that and and he'll, he'll surely approve it. And then when they don't drop dead or something tragic doesn't happen, they say, See, God was God favored that, and it was everything was, was okay. So, you know, we need to be careful about how we make decisions, and the things that we that we assume, which may not necessarily be be so and, and I'm looking across here at Glenn. And Glenn is turning some pages in his Bible, so I want to pass it to him.
Glenn:Well, in reference to what you were just just mentioning, one of the most sobering passages, in my opinion, is in Matthew 7, 21, to 23. Now, if we look at Matthew 7, 13, and 14, that that's the famous passage that we all know of about entering in at the straight gate. For wide as the gate and broad is the way that leadeth eyes to destruction. And many there be that go in there at, because straight as the gate and narrows away which leadeth unto life. And few there be that find it. Now we learn from that that there's not going to be very many on that straight and narrow path, but there's going to be a whole lot of people on the wide, easy path. But verses 21 through 23 says, Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name, have cast out devils and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess to them I never knew you. Depart from me. You that work iniquity. Iniquity is lawlessness. That's going against God's word. Previously in that that passage, it mentioned that he would, he would not be happy with those who doeth not the will of the Father. So there's a difference between thinking what we we think is right or believe is right, and actually knowing what God wants us to do. There's only one way for us to know what God wants us to do, and that's to read and study His Word. And that's the that's the things we're talking about today, that these are many people, and usually it's people that are in in authority some way, or leaders in some way, leaders of of churches, that come up with their own ideas and lead people astray. And that's exactly what Paul was, Paul talking about in Acts 20, 28, to the Ephesian elders, that there would be some that come in as leaders that would lead some away. So we're going to be going to go into another subject beside we've been talking about baptism. We're going to be going to the Lord's Supper, and I'm going to let Fred lead into that.
Fred Gosnell:Yeah. And of course, we had already talked about the Lord's Supper, the fact that in the first century, in Acts 20 verse seven, it was on the first day of the week that they came together to break bread. They had the Lord's Supper there. And then Paul did, did some preaching. We notice what Paul said in First Corinthians, 11, 23, through about 27 or so, the Lord gave him. He received from the Lord, he said. He said, I've received of the Lord that which also I delivered to you, Lord Jesus, same night, when He was betrayed. He took bread when He had given thanks, he break it and said, Take eat. This is my body which is broken for you. This do in remembrance of me. And when he says, This is My body which is broken for you, he's talking about the bread. So what was broken was the bread. And then the same manner, he took the cup, which he ends up saying that this cup is the New Testament in my blood. This do he as often as you drink it in remembrance of me. And again, the cup contained fruit juice. And he said, This is my blood. So the blood, the fruit juice, represented his blood, and the bread represented his body. It wasn't actually his body. So he says, For often, as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show the Lord's death till he come. And that's the whole purpose of the Lord's Supper. So first day of the week, they had worship, and they had the Lord's Supper. And of course, what we have found out is that over the years, the Lord's Supper has been changed in various bodies. Of course, the first one that changed, it was basically the what became the Catholic Church, and then the Lord's Supper became Mass. When you hear someone say, well, they had Mass. Well, they had the Lord's Supper. Of course, they have Mass on a lot of days, other than the first day of the week. And and of course, the then part of the Mass, they teach what is called Transubstantiation, and that is that the bread becomes the actual body of the Lord and the fruit of the vine the wine. While they use wine, the Bible is fruit of the vine. It's grape juice, and that that's actually the blood of the Lord. And and then, and that was adopted in about 251AD, from, from, from what we can determine. And then they had what they call Adoration of the Host. That was an AD 1217, Adoration of the Host is they have a container that is up on the altar, and it's everybody can see it. And within this container is bread and grape juice or wine, and it's displayed in this receptacle. And so they are adoring. That's Adoration of the host. And of course, my question would be, what does the Bible say about that,
Arnie:Ah, I've look for that Adoration of the host. And it's, it ain't in there. So, so I've got a short answer for it. It says nothing. And therefore, the the significance of the Bible Oh, OK. I was, I was thinking that, Matt, I didn't hear where you said it was. Matthew Chapter 26 of course, is one of the passages that tells about the the Lord, Lord's Supper, beginning in verse 26, they're at the Last Supper, Jesus with with the 11 remaining disciples, As they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed it and break it and gave it to the not addressing something is, is that it's silent. It does not disciples and said, Take, eat. This is my body. And he took the cup and gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, Drink you all of it. And this is not drink all of it. It's talking about each authorize that thing to be, to be done. Was that Matthew 26 of you drink of it. For this is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, there you're correct again, Fred, it's fruit of the vine. It's not it's not wine, Until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom. And then just one other that you were reading from a moment ago? Fred? thing, as we're thinking about some of the some of the changes that that occurred now, in in some churches, there's a ringing
Fred Gosnell:First Corinthians, 11, 23. of a bell that that occurs at certain points during the the service and involving the the mass.,there. The bell ringing didn't occur until AD 1230. So evidently the Lord hadn't recommended that, and none of none of the religious leaders up to that point had recommended it. It seems like a new innovation.
Glenn:And another issue that was that was introduced in the 1400s, in about 1414AD, the laity, or the common people within the church, were deprived of partaking of the the cup or the fruit of the vine. They were only given the bread and then the priest partook of the cup or the fruit of the vine. Well, once again, we don't find anything in the Scriptures concerning that. What we do find, as both Fred and Arnie have read, is that each member partook of those elements, the bread and and the fruit of the vine, because each of us, each of us, are remembering Christ and what He did for us. And that's, that's what the Lord's Supper is it's a memorial for Christ, remembering His death, His burial and His resurrection. Then the Catholic church also started reciting the mass only in Latin in 1546AD. Why that, that that occurred? We don't know.
Arnie:Do you speak Latin?
Glenn:Well? No, I don't, and I know. I know from from not personal experience, but I knew people when I was when I was younger, when Catholic Masses were still being recited in Latin. I was born in 1952 so in the in the 50s and 60s, Catholic Masses were still being recited in Latin, in most cases. Well, this was in the United States, not very many people spoke Latin. Now I know that that during those days, some of the high school kids took Latin, but no one was fluent in the in the language, therefore they could not understand. The the purpose for preaching and teaching is so that the ones who are hearing understand what is being taught. There doesn't do anyone any good to hear something recited in a language that you don't understand.
Fred Gosnell:Exactly. And and, of course, we're supposed to teach and admonish one another in our singing. Which is, which is our next subject here, and we had discussed this. You know, if you examine your New Testament, you'll find out that the only kind of music is talked about in the New Testament in worship is singing. And of course, when we talk about music, there's two kinds of music, there's there's instrumental music, and then there's singing, acapella, without instruments. And and, but of course, man, being what they are, they weren't satisfied with that. So in about AD670 they started to use instruments to accompany the singing in their worship and and again, completely changed from the new test, the New Testament pattern, uh, singing. Ephesians, chapter five, verse 19, Colossians, 3, 16, and and six or seven other passages use the word singing and singing only.Instrumental music is not there.
Arnie:You know, in First Corinthians, chapter 14, I'm looking at verse 15, where Paul writes, he said, What is it? Then I will pray with the spirit. I will pray with the understanding also. I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the understanding also. And, and I find it interesting that the word sing is, is used there. That's, that's a vocal exercise of of human beings. And, and they're not just saying it, they're singing it. We have the capability of doing it, but nobody's playing it. I don't see any banjos. I don't see any any organs or pianos or beating of drums or any of those kinds of things, as as a part of of this exercise. Uh, I'm looking also in, in the Ephesian letter, in Ephesians, chapter in chapter five and verse 19. Paul says, Speaking to yourselves. So as as we're doing this, we're actually teaching one another, Fred's teaching Glenn and Arnie. If he was leading the singing, if he was doing the singing, we would be likewise teaching him the same the same thing. So Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. And then, then I'll just give you one other passage in in this regard. In the Letter to the Colossians, Paul said in Colossians, chapter three and verse 16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom. That's an interesting thought, isn't it? The things that Jesus said, The things that Jesus taught, the things that Jesus did, letting that dwell in us, becoming a part of our of our being, Dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in song and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. So what Glenn was talking about a few minutes a few minutes ago involved teaching and encouraging, leading each other to greater loyalty and and faith in the Lord.
Glenn:Yeah, you know, one of the things I think is very important in relation to this, and we mentioned this before, when we're talking about Satan, is that in the first century, they had the advantage then, of having inspired men, apostles and those others that the apostles had laid their hands on and and given the gifts we no longer have those we no longer have the leadership of the those people that are inspired by God. It was mentioned by Fred a few moments ago that the instruments of music were not introduced into into the the worship of Christ's Church until AD670. And it didn't become really popular or are prevalent until about 14th or 15th century. Therefore we can, we can conclude that there was something about that, that that wasn't authorized.
Arnie:Well, that brings us to a good stopping point. We hope that you'll tune in with us next Lord's day, and we can continue these thoughts. There's some other things that we need to to discuss that I think will be important to you and helpful in in understanding the Bible a little bit little bit better. So until then, we pray that the Lord will be with with you, and that you will be with him, and we look forward to speaking to you again next Lord's Day. Have a good week.