What Does the Bible Say About Christ's Church or Men's Churches #8?

In this last episode on this subject, Arnie and Fred finish their discussion of some men who were part of the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin, John Knox and John Smyth. We noted that most Protestant churches resulted from the Reformation Movement and have roots in those major denominations. We discuss five other non-Catholic religious bodies, who established them and the date they were established. We note that all Protestant denominations are less than 700 years old. We go back to the Bible to again, see what it says about Christ's Church and when He built it. We review some of the things that Christ said about His Church as well as His answer to those who thought they were serving Him and were not. We encourage our listeners to study their Bibles and make sure the church they attend is doing what the Lord says. Take about 30-minutes to listen in on our discussion. Have your Bible handy so you can verify what we are saying. There is a transcript of this Buzzsprout episode provided for your convenience.

Transcript

Fred Gosnell: 0:00

This is a presentation of the Woodland church of Christ, meeting at 3370 Broad Street in Sumter, South Carolina. We meet for worship on Sunday at ten thirty am and five thirty pm. We meet for bible study at nine thirty am on Sunday and seven pm on Wednesday. If you have questions or comments on this lesson, you may email them to Fred Gosnell at fgosnell@ftc-i.net or to Arnie Granke at agranke440718@twc.com.

Arnie: 0:30

Oh, good afternoon. This is Arnie Granke and Fred Gosnell with the church of Christ at Woodland. And this is what does the Bible say? Glenn's not able to be with us today, so it's just Fred and and myself. And Fred, I think, in our in our last little session, as we've been talking about Christ's Church and and noticing some characteristics and and whatnot of it, that we also took a look at some, some of the denominations and things that differ from Christ's Church, and from what they what the Bible describes there. I think we've talked about, talked about the church as it began in in England and Czechoslovakia, over in Germany, with, with Martin Luther. King Henry actually being a, a founder of, of of a church, who when, when the when the church split, Church of England split from split from the Catholic Church. Who else do we have here that we want to talk about?

Fred Gosnell: 1:52

Well, Arnie, one of the other men that were involved in what people normally refer to as a Protestantism was John Calvin, and he was a French theologian. He lived from 1509, to 1564, and he wrote what's called the institutes of the Christian Religion, and I think he was 27 when he when he wrote that. And basically that was a defense of Protestantism in France, which was those who protested against the Catholic Church and some of things that they had instituted. And ultimately, his followers started the Presbyterian Church. Calvin had said, don't, don't start a church in in my name, but they did. So, not in his name, but they said Presbyterian Church. And it was, it was actually started in Scotland, and then the one of his, I guess you would hear, you would say men that kind of went along with him was John Knox, and he was lived about the same time. And John Knox, as people, he ended up establishing the Reformed Church. And one of the things that we remember from when we talked about the Lord's church. Of course, the Lord's church is, is a spiritual body. It's headquarters are in heaven, and Jesus rules in heaven, on on the throne. But all of these denominational churches, they have addresses. Their headquarters have addresses, and here on the earth, and the address, by the way, for the Presbyterian Church USA, the national headquarters, is in Louisville, Kentucky, and it's 100 Witherspoon Street, Louisville, Kentucky. And then the address for the Reformed Church in the USA is in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and 4560th Street Southeast. So the the the apostasy and the division

Arnie: 4:08

So, so if that that church there, that that you were continued, and the men that wanted to get away from the Catholic Church ended up establishing denominational, denominational churches of their own. And of course, they're simply churches made by men. The men weren't inspired, and the Lord didn't tell them to do anything like that. He had already established His Church in about AD 33. talking about there, if, if that was formed 500 years ago, that would be a little more recently than Christ Church, wouldn't it?

Fred Gosnell: 4:55

I would say so, yes,

Arnie: 4:56

Yeah, about, about, 1700 years, too too late,

Fred Gosnell: 5:05

Too late. And by this, by the wrong people,

Arnie: 5:07

And by the by the wrong people and and the address

Fred Gosnell: 5:08

Yeah, the ah, should be in heaven, I would think of as where the where the

Arnie: 5:13

I see you're picking up your Bible there. headquarters ought to ought to be.

Fred Gosnell: 5:22

Well, the Lord's church is described by the Hebrew writer, and its address is given in Hebrews chapter 12, 22, and 23. And the Hebrew writer says, Ye are come unto Mount Zion and into the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and Church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. So there's the headquarters of the only church that Jesus ever built.

Arnie: 5:55

Well. I'm looking at Acts chapter two, as a matter of fact, there and and verse, verse 47 speaks about the people who had become, who had obeyed the gospel there in Acts chapter two in Jerusalem and and had become members of the church. And it says that they were praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church day by day, such as we're being saved. So it appears to me that the church was in existence in AD 33 quite a quite a while before any of the any of these denominations came into into existence. Uh, of course, most of those had sprung up out of out of Catholicism and and I'll just mention one other one, John Smith, or Smythe, the founder of an Anabaptist group. Anabaptists are a group that that baptize again. And apparently, if somebody, for example, had been a Catholic or been in a denomination where they baptized infants, for them to become members of their congregation, they would have to be baptized as an adult there rather and, and they're correct in that response, in that respect, I would, I would certainly have to say. And they, and they baptized by immersion, but only, only with adults. And the Baptist church in England is, is a result of the work that that John Smith, or Smythe had had done. 1611 is, is about the time that that he formed that church. So we, we've been looking at a number of Protestant churches that resulted from, really, from the Reformation movement. Reformation movement seems to have been pretty much started by by Martin Luther. But then, then he began his own church, and it was, of course, the Lutheran church and and just about all of the denominations that we are able to to name were offsprings from, from that time.

Fred Gosnell: 8:34

Yes, and of course, what what happened was, and as those various denominations were established, then later on, the division continued. For instance, from the Anabaptist, the original Baptist Church established by John Smith or John Smyth in 1611, there are Baptist churches of different persuasion that had been built by by men since then. You have Free Will Baptist churches. You have Baptist churches that are Southern Baptist churches and so and those have different rules, if you will, that are contrary to what the Bible says. And so, so, of course, that's, that's the problem. Of course, we, you know, we have, we have Methodist churches. Then we have Southern Methodist churches. Then we have African, African Methodist Episcopal churches, AME churches. So, so, the, of course, this is long since Paul wrote to the Corinthians in First Corinthians, chapter one, verse 10, he said, Let there be no divisions among you. So divisions, denominations are contrary to what the Bible says, contrary to what Paul says. And of course, the problem is a lot of people don't know the background. They don't seem to know what the Bible says. And a lot of good people are members of denominations. You know, a lot of them don't smoke, you don't drink, they don't cuss, they don't do a lot of bad things. But nevertheless, they're in religions that the Lord never established.

Arnie: 10:17

Well, you know, in my own case, I was raised in a denomination, and I believed that that that was the truth. And and then when some someone began to show me a number of Bible passages, I began to realize that the denomination that I was a member of isn't in the Bible in the first place, and and many of the things that we held to to be spiritual fact were contrary to what the Bible had had to say. So it was, it was then that I, I just happened to know somebody who who taught me that I needed to obey the gospel in the first place, and I really had never done that. And so that's, that's how I became a Christian. And I wish that others would do, do likewise. Study the church that you're in. See whether you can read about it in the New Testament. Find out when it when it came into existence. Was it, well did it exist in AD 33? If, if not, then you know that it's not the church that the Lord established. And think about, what do I need to do to be saved, and look what the what the Bible says, And then, and then follow that you won't go wrong.

Fred Gosnell: 11:49

Exactly. Of course, Fred was a Methodist. He was, I was a Methodist. Of course, I wasn't a practicing Methodist, but I was a Methodist. My mother was a Methodist. And most of my my family were Methodists And of course, that's one of the things that you find generally, whatever religion the family is, that's what other members of the family are as well. And of course, I have a similar story. Found out that the Methodist Church. Couldn't find it in the Bible, so I ended up being taught what the Bible says about the church Jesus built, and then ultimately saw that, you know, those people in the first century, they all obeyed the same commands to to obey the gospel. Acts Chapter Two, people there asked Peter, what shall we do? And he said, Repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord. And so we have to look at what the Bible says, and look at the what the Lord established, not what some man, 1500 or 2000 years since then, put together. And because ultimately, we're going to face the Lord. He's going to be our judge, and he's going to judge us, he says in John 12, 48, according to what He says, Not according to what some uninspired man said and built 2000 years after Him.

Arnie: 13:16

These numerous bodies that we've been talking about, of course, are are considered to be Protestant. In other words, they're protesting against the Catholic Church. Is the is the reason for that that particular name. But there are a number of others as well that have come into being in the last several 100 years. For example, the the Mormon church. And the interesting thing about all these denominations and the Mormon church, in addition to that, is, is the fact that all of these groups splinter off. So it doesn't be it doesn't, when you say that you're a member of the Mormon church, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily a member of the group that's out in Salt Lake City, Utah, there may be a dozen or more different brands of Mormon churches, just like there are dozens of Lutheran churches and dozens of of different kinds of Methodist churches and and all of this. So, so we all need to be going back to the Bible and starting over with this. But Joseph Smith, of course, was the was the founder of the of the Mormon church. He wrote the Book of Mormon. Supposedly it was, it was given to him by inspiration. But, but as as Christians and and knowing the origin of the Bible, we know that that it certainly is in conflict with God's words. Who it can't have been inspired in 1830 when, when Joseph Smith started it. Seventh Day Adventist ate another group, Ellen G White established that group, and they're still an active religion as well. 1845 was the beginning time of that Christian Science. Mary Baker Glover Patterson Eddy was the founder of that. She, she wrote that, wrote a book that was titled Science and hHealth with Key to the Scriptures, and at its older than a lot of the denominations that are stringing up Today, 1879 but it doesn't go back to 33 AD, as in the case of the New Testament. And certainly Jehovah's Witnesses, also known as the Watchtower Society, that was begun by Charles Taze Russell. It had its start in 1884 and that was an American church as well. All of these, I think, that we've mentioned, were. And so just, church after church after church keeps coming, on to the scene. And people say, stay as far away from the New Testament in one as they do in another. Most of them just don't even open the New Testament.

Fred Gosnell: 16:56

Of course they all have addresses here on the earth. The, course The Mormon Church, the Mormon Church's address is, it's not in heaven. It's in 50 East North Temple Street in Salt Lake City, Utah. Of course, that's where the temple is. Of course, the Lord's temple is in heaven. It's not here on the earth. Then the Seventh Day Adventist Church, their general conference, address is 12501, Old Columbia Pike in Silver Spring, Maryland. And again, that Church's address is not in heaven. Then the Christian Science Church, their address is 210 Massachusetts Avenue in Boston, Massachusetts, USA. Again, this is a address here on the earth. Then the Jehovah's Witness church. Of course, Jehovah's Witness church, their governing body is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. They're the ones that produce all of their written material. You might have had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses come by your house and they try to give, want to give you some tracks about the church. And their address is 1220, Red Mills Road in Wallkill, New York in the United States. And of course, none of these churches existed in AD 33. They have all been established by uninspired men 1000s of years after the Lord built His church. And of course, built, the Lord built his church in AD 33 about the same time he established his kingdom that shall shall last forever. And the New Testament tells us how we are to be added to that church and translated into that kingdom. And those requirements have not changed since the Lord established them in the first century.

Arnie: 19:03

And we just read in the in the very last verse of of Acts, chapter two, that the Lord was adding to the church, day by day, everybody that was being saved. So, you know, let's, let's keep that in mind as we think about where we need to be, and, and is the group that I'm with, ask yourself, is is this found in the Bible? Where is it found? And, and can I give book, chapter and verse and, and if, if not, then I need to, need to think in terms of what does, what church is that they that the Lord had established? There are estimates of the all of these denominational bodies that number in millions, literally, I think maybe some of those estimates may be on the. on the wild side. Somebody might disagree with me on that, because I don't really know how, how many there there are. My estimate would be, oh, maybe, maybe there's 150 or rather 750 to 1000 similar denominations in in this group, but, but that could be, there are people that that actually estimate that, that there could be millions of them. I just don't know how many there there are. But all did all Protestant denominations resulted from, from this Reformation Movement that actually began back in, back in the time of of Martin Luther, and they, they, they have, many of them have roots in in these major denominations. So think in terms of, what does the Bible say and not, what does my history book tell me.

Fred Gosnell: 21:17

Yes, and of course, we, what we showed, that the Bible told us, Paul wrote some things. He said that there, there would be a falling away or an apostasy. And we looked at that, and we noted that the Roman Catholic Church was was actually the result of that. First Pope was in 606 AD. And and of course, the result, then was the apostasy that Paul talked about. So then all of these Protestant denominations that we're talking about are they're, all of them are less than 700 years old. And of course, that tells us that denominations are all, the Protestant denominations are that they're established at the wrong time, in the wrong place, they're by the wrong person, they have the wrong head. Of course, I've given the addresses to some of these. All of these denominations have some kind of an address and have some kind of a ruling authority. Some of them will say that the local congregations have have, you know, freedom to do what they want. But that's not really true, because they all identify themselves. For instance, the Southern Baptist churches are all teach generally, the same thing, and they're members of the Southern Baptist Convention, so and they all teach some kind of false doctrine. And you know what we need to understand is, is all of these religious bodies, everything that they teach, is not false. And of course, that's one of the problems that we have. The some of the things that they teach are true. But as Paul told the Corinthians, A little leaven leavens, the whole lump. It only takes a little bit of false doctrine to leaven the whole group, and that's what we have when we look at the denominations. And of course, that then forces us to a conclusion. And of course, the conclusion is that these religious bodies, these denominations, they then cannot be the Lord's church. They were built at the wrong time by the wrong people, and they have the wrong name. Generally, there are some that have the right name, but you have to make sure that what they teach is according to what the Bible says. And even I would say this even just because the sign says the Church of Christ out in front of the building doesn't make it so until you find out whether or not they teach the truth and teach what the Bible says.

Arnie: 24:12

So, listen to what they have to say. Look at it in the Bible and and then you can decide whether, whether they're worthy of being becoming a part of them or not. And of course, if you obey the gospel as it's written in the New Testament, you automatically become a member of the Lord's church. Jesus is speaking in Matthew chapter, chapter seven, and, and he speaks about worship and and the Jews had had problems with vain worship 2000 years ago all the way back in Jesus, in Jesus time. And Jesus said, In vain they do worship Meteaching for doctrines, the commandments of men. And that's exactly what the problem is with with the denominational churches today. And he, Jesus, called the multitude and said unto them, Hear and understand not that which goes into the mouth defileth the man. But that which cometh out of the mouth, this defiles the man. Well, of course, people would say, Well, what's that have to do with churches? Well, read on down to verse 12. Then came the disciples and said unto him, Knowest Thou that the Pharisees were offended after they heard this saying, But he answered and said, Every plant which my Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted up. So the point is, then if, if the church is not the plant, a plant that the Lord had established, that that Christ's Father had had established, well, we're worshiping in vain, and we're teaching false doctrine and and teaching the commandments of men and and relying on that as the way to go to heaven, rather than on, on what the Lord said, a thus saith the LORD,

Fred Gosnell: 26:25

Yeah. And of course, one of the, another, one of the problems that we have is that people tend to from, from a religious standpoint, people, people tend to do the things that that that they like, that they like, things that make them feel good. Do the things, they'll go look, for instance, they'll go look for a church and and for a preacher that preaches the things that they want to hear. And then, of course, they become members there and and they think that everything that they're doing is, is, is worship. Of course, what you just just noted there that our worship has to be according to what God wants us to do and what he says. And and so one of the things that Jesus talked about in Matthew seven and and he he dealt with this problem of people doing things that that please them, that that they think is right. And in Matthew seven verse, verse, 21 to 23 Jesus says, there Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. And he says, Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name, have cast out devils, demons and in thy name, done many wonderful works? And notice what he says. He says, Then will I profess unto them I never knew you. Depart from me, ye that work iniquity or lawlessness. So just because it's feels good, as far as an individual is concerned, just because they think they're doing what the Lord's will is, doesn't mean that the Lord approves of it. And the only way that we can know whether or not the Lord approves of what we do is whether or not, as he says, He that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. And the only way that we can know the Father's will is to see what he says in His word. And in the New Testament, we're under New Testament Law. We're we're under the law of Christ. And Christ had said that he has been given all authority in heaven and earth in Matthew 28, 18, and he has given us the rules and the regulations and the the pattern to follow in the New Testament. So we need to know what the Bible says about the church we are a member of and about the worship that we're involved in, and we need to find out whether or not that is what the Bible teaches that we need to do. When we do that and we follow the Bible pattern, we'll know that we're doing God's will.

Arnie: 29:13

Fred, I'm looking at First Corinthians, chapter one, and beginning in verse 10, Paul writes. He says, Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them, which are the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. This, this sounds a lot like denominationalism, right there, doesn't it? Now, this, I say, that everyone of you sajfb, I am of Paul, and I am of Apollos and I of Cephas. And I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius. Lest any should say that I baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanus, besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect for the but for for the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God. Well, I see that we're out of time. Fred. I hope that you'll read your Bible. Check it, check it out, see if the group that you are considering becoming a part of is mentioned in the Bible. If it's not, why don't you obey the gospel and and become one of Christ's people? We encourage you to do that. We thank you for listening and have a good week.