What Does the Bible Say About the Lutheran Church #2?

We continue our discussion of the Lutheran Church denomination in this episode. We review their belief and teaching that justification is by faith alone. We note what James says in chapter two where he says that faith without works is dead, along with the full context. We also note several other passages that show this Lutheran belief to be in error. We next look at the Lutheran teaching that baptism can be done by sprinkling, pouring or immersion. We note the meaning of the Greek word, baptizo, which is to immerse, dip or plunge. We again note that in several passages, the Bible says that baptism is a burial in water. We next examine the Lutheran teaching that little children are to be baptized. We discuss the fact that there is no example in the New Testament where infants were baptized. We note that only believers and those who could confess and repent were baptized in the New Testament. They also teach and believe that children inherit sin. We talk about the passages in the Bible that say this is not so. We find in the Lutheran Catechism that there are a number of errors  taught concerning the Lord's Supper. We look at those and note the passages that show their teaching to be in error. Concerning the Ten Commandments, the Lutheran Church teaches that they are still in effect. The Bible says there was a change in the law, and it tells us when that change occurred. We discuss the passages that say that. We complete this episode with a discussion of another error the Lutheran teaches concerning  baptism and circumcision. Take about 30-minutes to listen in on our discussion. Have your Bible handy so you can verify what we are saying, There is a transcript of this Buzzsprout episode provided for your convenience.

Transcript

Fred Gosnell: 0:00

This is a presentation of the Woodland church of Christ meeting at 3370 Broad Street in Sumter, South Carolina. We meet for worship on Sunday at ten thirty am and five thirty pm. We meet for Bible study at nine thirty am on Sunday and seven pm on Wednesday. If you have questions or comments on this lesson, you may email them to Arnie Granke at agranke@440718@twc.com or to Glenn Landrum at scbamaboy2003@yahoo.com or to Eric McClam at ericmcclam50@outlook.com or to Fred Gosnell at fgosnell@ftc- i.net.

Arnie: 0:56

Good afternoon. This is What Does the Bible Say, brought to you by the church of Christ at Woodland in Sumter, South Carolina. I'm Arnie Granke. I preach at that church, and with me today is Fred Gosnell, and Glenn is with us, and Eric is here as well, and we were speaking about some denominations. Last Lord's Day, we want to continue that thought, we left off with some thoughts with regard to the Lutheran Church and their teaching, and I'm going to pass this on to Glenn, and, and let you carry the ball, Glenn.

Glenn: 1:46

Yeah, we've been talking about the doctrines, and the, these are traditions, I guess you would say, of the Lutheran Church, and overall we're addressing some, some of the doctrines and traditions of different denominations to indicate where denominations differ from what the Bible teache. As you know that if you listen to our program at any length of time, you know that we always are specifying that anything we, the only way that we can be guided in truth. Christ, Christ said that He was the way, the truth, and the life. The truth mean that that anything that He had said or He had authorized to be said were things that we needed to pay attention to. The last point we were made is that the Lutheran Church teaches justify justification by faith alone and we covered that fairly well and now there's there's one, one passage that, if you were, if you're paying attention, there's one passage that, that is really hard to avoid when, when looking at that, that idea that, that we are saved by faith alone, and that'll be James 2, 24. And it says, you, You see, then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only. We hear a lot of people talking about that we're not saved by works, and that we cannot work our way to heaven, and oh, that's true, we're not saved by works, we can't work our ways to heaven. We are saved by grace through faith, and that's that's true. Although our faith, if you read James 2, 14 to 26 it is very clearly teaches that we demonstrate our faith by our works, just the way Abraham did when he obeyed God and offered his son's son Isaac. The next point is one today the Lutheran Church teaches, and that is that Christ does not specify the mode of baptism. They say that it may be performed in one of any, or any of one of three ways, and those are sprinkling, pouring, or immersion. So this is one mode is just as good as another, according to the Lutheran Church, in the Lutheran Catechism on page 147 says that. The Greek word baptizo, which is translated baptized in the English Bible, means to dip, to plunge, to immerse. Most people wouldn't, wouldn't argue that when. John the Baptist was baptizing people, and even when he baptized Christ in the Jordan River, that he baptized by the form of immersion, or putting the person under the water, fully under the water, in order to baptize. There are a few verses that we want to take a look at, or a few passages. First one I'm going to read is Colossians two verse 12, and it says, Buried with him in baptism, in which you also were rinsed with him through faith, araised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. Well, to be buried is to be put under something. When we bury somebody, when someone has passed away, and we bury them, we don't bury them by just throwing a little dirt on top of them, or pouring some dirt on top of them. We actually put them into the ground and bury them. That's that's what the, the term means. Romans six three and four is us pretty specific too, and I can begin at verse one. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace, that grace may abound? Certainly not. How shall we who died to live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ, were baptized into His death. Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father. Even so, we also should walk in newness of life. Well, once again, it's mentioning being buried, being put under something, and it mentions that Christ was more, was buried, he was baptized, he was buried, but he also had died and was buried, and after he bear and was buried he raised himself to live again, so when we are baptized we reenact that death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that's exactly what Romans six three and four is saying. Scriptural baptism is a burial in water that's going under the water.

Fred Gosnell: 7:51

Well, in Luther's catechism, in page one 146 Luther wrote, it says, Christ has commanded that little children should be brought to him, and we obey this command by baptizing them and teaching them. Well, the passage that I'm familiar with is in Matthew 19, 13 and there it says, Then were there brought unto him little children that he should put his hands on them and pray, and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, 'Suffer those children, forbid them not come to me. For of such is the kingdom of heaven. Of course, the passage doesn't mention anything about baptism, and a matter of fact, he says, 'Of such is the kingdom of heaven. They haven't done anything other than being children. So, infant baptism, when you read your Bible, you just don't find it there. There's there's never a baby that's baptized in the New Testament, because in the New Testament only believers, one of the things Jesus said, the first thing He said, "If you don't believe in me, that I am, you'll perish. And Acts two verse 38 we're familiar with that there. When the people asked Peter, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Of course, those were those were adults. There were ultimately there were 3000 adults that were baptized. Then in Acts eight verse 36 and 37 there this is where Philip is teaching the eunuch on the way to Gaza as they went on their way and of course we are told that the eunuch was reading from Isaiah 53 and we are told that Philip from Isaiah 53 preached Jesus to him. So verse 36 says, As they went on their way, they came into a certain water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What doth hinder me to be baptized? Of course, then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, thou mayest, and he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. So, and then based on that confession the eunuch verse 38 commanded the chariot to stand still and they went both down into the water with Philip and the eunuch and he baptized him or he immersed him. So there are no children in the New Testament that were ever baptized because first of all, they have to believe and have to be taught like a eunuch was, and so to baptize children is to add something that is not in the Bible, and we just simply cannot do that.

Glenn: 10:55

I mention something too. As far as children go, as well, we got, we have to remember prior to someone being baptized, they must repent, and they must confess. Well, Fred read the passage about Christ bringing the little children to him, the little children, he compared them, or he compared us, saying that we needed to be become like little children. In other words, we needed to become clean, pure, and free of sin, like the little children. Children have nothing to confess, they have nothing to repent of. Their confession, they would not understand who who Jesus was to start with, so their confession wouldn't mean anything. There's a process that that Christ and God have given us to to go by, and we've mentioned this many times, that we have to believe, we have to repent, we have to confess, and then we will be baptized. Children don't have, don't have the need to be baptized, neither do they have anything to repent of to in order to be baptized and be forgiven of their sins.

Eric: 12:21

I'm glad you brought that point up, Glenn, because according to the Lutheran Catechism on page 146 they, which is concerned that the children have inherited a sinful heart and the germ of sin, and them will grow, will soon grow. Well, we will go to Ezekiel chapter 18 and verse 20. Ezekiel chapter 18 and verse 20, it says, "The soul who sins shall die, the son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteous of the righteous shall be upon him, upon himself, and the wicked of the wicked shall be upon himself. So that right there explain explains that part about a sinful nature, or or inheritance sin, and also in Matthew chapter 18, verse two and three, with children are innocent and without sin. It says, start with verse one. At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and sat him in the midst of them, and said, Verily, I say unto you, except you be converted and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. And just like you said, Glenn, children doesn't have sin, and they should not be be doing, be going in, be doing baptism, or being baptized, because they have no sin, or inherited sin, or anything like that. But moving on to the error of the Lord's Supper.

Fred Gosnell: 14:16

Oh, let me look. I've got a couple of scriptures here that would fit in here. In Romans 9, 11 Paul says there he says, For the children being not yet born, needing neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand not of works but of him that calleth. So Paul says that the children, not being yet born, having neither having done any good or evil, so they don't inherit anything. Then, in a matter of fact, in Genesis eight verse two, or I'm sorry, Genesis eight verse 21 there it says, The Lord smelled a sweet savour, and the Lord. And said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake. For note, the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, not from his birth. So, this, this idea that children are inheriting sin, that's something that has been made up by man, it's not in the Bible,

Arnie: 15:21

You know, and just, just to add on that, if, if a little child, let's say, is a five year old, does something around the house, his mother may correct him for having done something that they didn't want done, but she wouldn't punish him severely for that, but if, when he was 12 or 13 years old, and he went ahead and did that again, contrary to what his mother had said, or his father had had said, that's where he would get punishment. We're not talking about when we're speaking about little children, we're not talking about 14, 15, year old kids. We're talking about little children, and when we're speaking about those who commit sin, we're speaking of those who are who actually should know better and go ahead and do what they should not have done in the first place, whether the Lord, whether it's something that the Lord has said in His word, or something, some order that the parents have given with regard to the child's age and knowledge and and understanding. You got another thought?

Eric: 16:41

No, I was going to actually talk about the errors of the Lord's Supper, but if you don't have anything else about the children,

Arnie: 16:47

Okay? You want to pick that up? You want me to?

Eric: 16:50

Sure, I can pick that up.

Arnie: 16:51

Okay.

Eric: 16:52

According to the Lutheran Catechism, on page 19, the errors of the Lord's Supper, it says, What is the sacrament of the altar? Answer, it is the true body of the blood of Jesus Christ under the bread and wine given unto us Christians to eat and drink as it was instituted by Christ himself in the sacrament through which forgiveness of sin is promised in the Lutheran Catechism, page 159

Glenn: 17:24

I want to expand on that a little bit. This is this is very similar to to the Catholic Church, where it says that the true, the bread is the true body and the blood is the blood, actual blood of Jesus Christ, that was called transubstantiation in the Catholic Church. I'm not sure if the Lutherans call it that or not. Arnie could probably verify one way or another, or not, but the bread and the wine or the fruit of the vine do not become the actual body and blood of Jesus. They are emblems that represent Jesus' body and represent his blood, so that we can remember him in that memorial, so

Arnie: 18:28

In well, in the Lutheran Church, they treated the emblems, the bread, and the, and the wine, is what they usually would use, but fruit of the vine, they treated it as if it was the blood and the body, but I don't recall anybody ever saying this is actually Jesus' blood. I think in Lutheran church they do say that that Jesus' body is under the bread and his blood is under the wine that they were partaking, but not that it really is alcoholic, you know, alcoholic blood or baked bread or anything of that of that sort, there. So depends on which denomination, you know, one denomination says it is, one denomination says it isn't, and probably somebody says maybe.

Glenn: 19:28

One of the other points I hear is, is that the sacraments, that's the bread and fruit of the vine, they're there, that the forgiveness of sins is promised through those sacraments. The forgiveness of sins is promised through Jesus' blood, through the blood that He shed. We don't read anywhere that it was His body that. That washes us clean from our sins. It's the blood.

Fred Gosnell: 20:05

Well, look at just look at First Corinthians 11 real quick. And Paul, Paul says that now, verse 23 I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered to you, the Lord Jesus, the same night, in which he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and he said, Take, eat, this is my body, which is which is broken for you. This do in remembrance of me. And after the same manner, also took the cup, and it's up, saying, This cup is a new testament in my blood. This do you often as you drink it in remembrance of me. Now, what, when you break the bread, he said, 'This take this. This is my body, which is broken. Well, the fact is that Jesus, none of Jesus' bones were ever broken, right? So, so this certainly could not be really his body, and of course he also talks about take the this is this cup is the New Testament in my blood. Well, what's in the cup? Well, in the cup is by the way, it's fruit of the vine, it's not wine either. So, so they're, they, they miss it on all points because they're not doing what the Bible says.

Arnie: 21:16

Yeah, we got, we gotta be careful not to add words where, where Paul has not, or where any, any writer in the New Testament has has not made a statement to that effect. It's theologians who get together, they get committees, and, and whatnot, and they make these decisions with regard to what they're going to do, what they're going to say, what they're going to call this element or that element, and then they publish that to the whole church, the whole nationwide, wherever that particular denomination happens to meet. Well, then four or five years later they'll have another meeting, and they'll turn all that stuff that they've already decided around in some way or adjust it in some new fashion, so that if you picked up a catechism, I have here a Lutheran small catechism on the table. If you pick that up and read what it says, this thing dates back to the 1940s and it does not say the same thing that they're teaching here in 2012.

Glenn: 22:44

Okay. I think we, we kind of got a got on a different track, but the 10 Commandments are for, for us and for all of God's creatures. That's from the Lutheran Catechism as well, and it says that there was a change of law from the old to the new, Hebrews seven verse 12, Hebrews seven verse 12. For the priesthood being changed of necessity, there is also a change of law, for he of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. So this is saying there's actually a change. It's not that one transferred to the other or one absorbed the other, that the new law absorbed the old law, and they were both applicable. No, the old law was done away with, and the new law under Christ was instituted. Then Jesus nailed the old law to the cross, that's Colossians 2, 14, Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements, that's the handwriting of requirements, that's the old law, the law of Moses, that was against us, which was contrary to us, and he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross or blotted it out. He nailed it to the cross. That means that it's gone. It no longer exists as a law to us. Now we, we do need to read the Old Testament. We need to read of the old law, and we need to understand the things that it said, although we can only be under one set of rules or one law at a time. We often hear it mentioned, and the example given, that for a person, say, who has lived in England for a while, and they're a citizen of England, while they're a citizen of England, they come under the laws and the government, the government of England. Yet when they move and immigrate to the United States and become a citizen of the United States, they are no longer under that law of England. They now have to answer to the law of the United States, and this is the same way within the law of Moses and the law of Christ, once Christ died and instituted his law, then every Christian is subject to the law of Christ and not to the law of Moses.

Fred Gosnell: 26:00

Well, one of the things that another thing the Lutheran Catechism says in page 146 it says, Circumcision, which is a type of baptism. Well, baptism is never compared, baptism is never compared to physical circumcision in the Bible. Now, in Colossians 2, 11 and 12, it is mentioned there, but notice what it says. Colossians 211 12 says, In whom also ye are circumcised, notice with a circumcision made without hands in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. So, what happens there in baptism? We are buried with him immersed, in baptism in water, and at that point God is the one that does the operating, and the circumcision is without physical hands, and the sins are removed from the individual, that's what that says. So, again, church fathers, there, whoever they were, and Luther, in particular, is wrong in that. Then, of course, circumcision, physical circumcision, it was a shadow of circumcision of the heart. Now you know Hebrews 10 verse verse one talks about these, the shadows that we have in from the things that were done in the Old Testament, and again notice what the Hebrew writer says, For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereto perfect. So, so in the Old Testament we had things that were done that were shadows of things that would be done in the New Testament, the shadow was there, was the sacrifice, but in the New Testament, we don't sacrifice animals, our sacrifices are spiritual in nature. Then, in Romans two, verse 29 there, and we'll get our self-turning Bible here, Proverbs two verse 29 says there, but he is a Jew, notice which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart in the spirit and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God. So, of course, now the true Israel of God are Christians, and true Jews today are not physical Jews, they are spiritual Jews, and the circumcision is of the heart, not physical.

Arnie: 29:00

Okay. Well, let's see here. We've got, we're just about out of time. We've only got a couple more, couple more minutes. So, what we want to, we want to say to you at this particular point is we need to be very, very cautious when people propose to you that they're experts on this particular subject, and this is what our group has decided that we're, that we're going to do. You need to look at what the Bible has to say on on that particular subject. It's not groups of men or groups of people that have been appointed to decide what the church is going to, excuse me, it's going to teach and and practice, but rather it's what the Bible, the word of God says, and it can't be any clearer than the Bible is. And and let's not make the error of saying that that one word really means something different from from the way that it's used in in the Bible, God has given us His word, we need to abide by it, and sad things can be the result of our failure to do that. We hope that you'll be with us again next Lord's Day, and we want to have a few more thoughts about some religious error, and we hope that you'll, that you'll be with us. Have a good week.