What Does the Bible Say About the Presbyterian Church?

We begin this episode on the Presbyterian Church by noting that there are actually nine Presbyterian denominations in the United States. We note three of the largest ones. We talk about the origins of the Presbyterian Church and note that it grew out of the teachings of John Calvin, even though he never founded a distinct denomination. Nevertheless, many of his teachings have been embraced by many Protestant groups. We discuss some of his history and note that he started out  siding with the Protestant Movement within the Catholic Church. He opposed Catholicism and was forced to flee France and take refuge in Switzerland. It was there that he developed what is called Calvinism. We discuss the 5 tenets of that doctrine and note the acronym of it, which is TULIP. We note those who actually established the Presbyterian denomination and when that was done. We move on to the organization of the Presbyterian Church and discuss some of the ways it does not follow what the Bible says. We next note that the modern Presbyterian Church has changed in a number of ways from what it was when established. We look at some of those changes. We next begin a discussion of some of the classic beliefs and doctrines of this denomination, We will complete this discussion in the next episode. Take about 30-minutes to listen in on our discussion. Have your bible handy so you can verify what we are saying. There is a transcript of this Buzzsprout episode provided for your convenience.

Transcript

Fred Gosnell: 0:00

This is a presentation of the Woodland church of Christ meeting at 3370 Broad Street in Sumter, South Carolina. We meet for worship on Sunday at ten thirty am and five thirty pm. We meet for Bible study at nine thirty am on Sunday and seven pm on Wednesday. If you have questions or comments on this lesson, you may email them to Arnie Granke at agranke440718@twc.com or to Glenn Landrum at scbamaboy2003@yahoo.com or to Eric McClam at ericmcclam50@outlook.com or to Fred Gosnell at fgosnell@i.net.

Arnie: 0:55

Good afternoon. This is What Does the Bible Say, brought to you by the church of Christ at Woodland in Sumter, South Carolina. We're out on Highway 76 378 about two miles east of Shaw Air Force Base main gate, and while we're out here in the country, we have a quiet and shady place where we can, where we can meet. We would certainly value having you come with us to worship with us and study the Bible with us. Fred and Glenn and Eric are here with me this afternoon, and we want to talk to you about some more denominations. We got a handful of them already under under consideration. And Glenn, what's the next one we're going to talk about?

Glenn: 1:54

Well, we're going to be talking about the Presbyterian Church too today. And before I go into that, I want to reiterate what we thought we've mentioned many times, that that we, we teach what the Bible teaches, and that's that's what we're trying to identify the differences between these denominations, what their doctrines are, and their teachings are, and there are differences between what that and what the Bible actually says, and then that's important for all of us, that that we understand what God has actually said for us to do, and how we are to to set the church up, worship, and do the work of the church. If we're not doing things the way God wants us to do, then we're not doing His will, and that's that's why we're trying to identify these things, because these are things that these denominations are doing that are in conflict with what the Bible teaches. There are nine Presbyterian denominations in the United States, three of which are the major denominations. The United Presbyterian Church is by far the largest one of these in America. The Presbyterian Church in the United States, the Southern Presbyterian Church is about 1/3 the size of the United Presbyterian Church. The Cumberland Presbyterian Church is the smallest of the three. Modern Presbyterianism is far different from what it was in its beginnings.

Fred Gosnell: 3:39

Let's look at the origin and the history of the Presbyterian Church. Well, Presbyterianism grew out of the teachings of John Calvin, and he lived 1509 to 1564 So, though he never founded a distinct denomination, he preached and put into practice the principles which underlie basically all of Presbyterian churches, so actually the principles of college teachings have been embraced by many of the Protestant groups. So, in addition to the Presbyterians, his teachings influenced the Huguenots of France, the Puritans of England, the Covenanters of Scotland, and the Dutch Reformed Church of Holland. So, you can see how widespread his doctrine went. So he was born in Noyon, France. He became well educated while a young man. He sided with the Protestant movement within the Catholic Church. Due to his opposition to Catholicism, he was forced to flee France, so he took refuge in Geneva, Switzerland. So it was in Geneva that he developed his doctrine, which has since been appropriately dubbed Calvinism. It has five tenets based upon the sovereignty of the of God, according to him. The first one. Is total hereditary depravity this teaches that as a result of Adam's sin, all of his descendants are born totally depraved, opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil, unable to do anything toward being saved. Then that led to unconditional election. This states that God, before the creation unconditionally elected or predestined certain individuals to be saved, then that led him to develop limited atonement. This says that since only the elected ones could be saved, then Jesus died only for those who were to be saved, the elect. So then his fourth position was irresistible grace. So this states that when God, in His own due time, acted upon a sinner who was among the unconditionally elected, the sinner could not resist God's grace, he would be saved no matter what. Then the last position was titled Perseverance of the Saints. This teaches that none of the elect, having received the grace of God, could fall away and be lost, and we remember this by the acronym TULIP, T U L I P.

Eric: 6:17

Now, it was also in Geneva, where he established a social religion system, which some called the Protestant Church State, which formed the basis of Presbyterianism. Presbyterianism was the purest form of Calvinism, although Calvinism has affected the doctrines of all the Reformed churches, the Baptist churches, the Holiness churches, and others. The Presbyterian Church, though Presbyterianism grew out of the teaching of Calvin, John Knox 1505 to 1572 can rightfully be called the founder of the Presbyterianism. He was born in Haddington, Scotland, and educated at the University of Glasgow. He became a Roman Catholic priest, but he was then attracted to the preaching of the Scottish Protestant Reformed George Wishart. Knox fled England in 1533 because of the religion persecution, which followed the corination of Mary, daughter of Henry the Eighth, and went to Geneva, where he studied under Calvin. He returned to Scotland in 1559 where he spent the rest of his life establishing Calvinistic theologians of Scotland. The first General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church was held in Scotland in 1560 The Scott Confession of Faith and the first book of Discipline came from it. In 1592 Parliament established Presbyterianism as a Church of Scotland. The Westminster Association met in season from July 1, 1643 to February 22, 16 49. It framed the Westminster Confession of Faith, which became the doctrinal foundation of English and American Presbyterianism, and the larger and shorter Catachisms. The father of American Presbyterian was Francis Manic, Makemie who organized the Rehoboth Church in Maryland in 1684.

Arnie: 8:49

Yeah, that was catechisms there.

Eric: 8:52

Thank you for that.

Arnie: 8:53

Yeah, misread that, but I'm sure you're forgiven.

Eric: 8:58

Yes Sir. Appreciated

Arnie: 8:59

Uh, Francis. Francis Makemie was an individual who was termed the father of American Presbyterianism. He had organized what was called the Rehoboth Church in Maryland in 1684 so that gives us a kind of a roster of some of the some of the mainstays in the early days of of of that church. It, of course, had had a separate organization, most of these denominations are similar to one another in certain ways, but each one has its own setup, and so they're not exactly identical, except in the fact perhaps that they, most of them, are teaching something that's contrary to what the Bible has to say. It was in 1592 that parliament, of course, that would be over in England, that parliament had established Presbyterianism as what they called the Church of Scotland, right. So, so the Presbyterian Church receives its name from its its form of of government, the church is made up of congregations. There are presbyteries, there are synods. There's what they call a general assembly. Delegates to the general assembly are sent there by the synod, although each congregation enjoys considerable freedom in delivering dealing with their own affairs. The congregations are organized so that the general assembly proposes great influence as well as judicial power over the congregations that are subject to it. There are three offices in each congregation. One of the pastor, one of them is a ruling elder, one of them is is a deacon. The pastor is considered to be a representative of Christ. The ruling elder represents the people of the congregation, and then the deacon is the administrator of temporal affairs. The presbyteries are made up of a certain number of churches. Each church in the presbytery has its regularly installed pastor or pastors in some cases, as well as an equal number of presiding elders on the board, which is the presbytery. These presbyteries rule in the denomination, even deciding or rejecting or accepting rules of the general assembly.

Glenn: 12:11

Now the things that Arnie just spoke about, about synods, presbyteries, general assemblies, delegates to General Assembly, who are sent by the Synod, pastors, ruling elders, deacons, most all of these have very little, if any, biblical background. There's no mention of synods, there's no mention of general assemblies, there's no mention of synod sending people to the general assemblies, there is mention of a presbytery, if you would call it that, being the the elders or the presbyters or bishops, all the same, same person, just different name, who are over individual congregations, and those people, those are the ones that are called pastors. The pastor isn't a lead pastor or head pastor. There's not a ruling elder. There is a plurality of elders mentioned in the Bible that is over each congregation. So, when we read these things, you need to understand something about what the Bible says. Take a look in Second Timothy three and Titus, Titus one, and you'll find out what the what the qualifications are for these people called pastors or elders or presbyters, so or bishops or shepherds, all referring to the same person in the same position, and those are the things that we're talking about when we say that these are these are things that these denominations, in this case, Presbyterian denomination does its contrary to the Bible pattern. Modern Presbyterian, the modern Presbyterian Church, in the past, gospel preachers battled Presbyterianism on doctrinal grounds, such things as predestination, infant baptism, etc. but to concentrate on these issues today is a fight of dead man. For Presbyterians are not concerned about them anymore. The heart and soul of Presbyterianism today is modernism. Modernists look upon the Bible as a product of man, not of God. If you've been with us, listening to us very long, you will understand that we have mentioned many, many times that the Bible is the word of God, that's Second Timothy 3, 16 and 17, Second Peter one three, and a number of other passages that tell us that the Bible is God's word. The Presbyterians believe that the Bible represents man's efforts to find God, which is basically the opposite of what the Bible is trying to do, that is God's trying, God trying to find and bring back man, that's why he sent his son Christ to the earth was to seek and save the lost to bring them back. They say it is inspired in the same way that the work of Shakespeare is inspired, representative of genius or great ability.

Fred Gosnell: 16:19

Although the Westminster Confession of Faith is still nominally the creed of Presbyterianism. The truth is that the Presbyterian Church left it long ago. Of course, Glenn just mentioned that there basically have gone into modernism. So Harry Emerson Fosdick, he was a noted theologian, was forced to leave the Presbyterian Church three generations ago because of his modernistic views. He affirmed, among other things, that it was not important whether Jesus was raised from the dead or not, but now he would fit right in. So, the Westminster Confession of Faith states the authority of the scriptures, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God, who is truth itself, the author thereof, and therefore it is to be received, because it is the word of God. That's chapter one of the Presbyterian of the Westminster Confession of Faith. Of course, the modern Presbyterian Church no longer believes that statement to be true. So they had a confession of 1967 Of course, that's what comes out of these synods and these meetings that they have. They accepted the 178th General Assembly of the United Presbyterian Church, and it states more accurately the belief of Presbyterian today in relation to the Bible. Now, this is a quote from that confession of 1967 Quote, the Bible is to be interpreted in the light of its witness to God's work of reconciliation in Christ. The scriptures given under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, are nevertheless the words of men conditioned by the language, thought forms, and literary fashions of the places and times at which they were written. They reflect views of life, history, and the cosmos, which were then current. Today, the vast majority of Presbyterian preachers do not believe that the Bible is verbally inspired, or that it is the word of God.

Eric: 18:26

Glenn, you had a passage you was about to go to.

Glenn: 18:27

No, yeah, you can go ahead.

Eric: 18:29

A representative view of modern Presbyterianism can be seen in the booklet published by the Presbyterian Church, entitled The Fascinating Doctrine of Presbyterianism, subtitled, Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Predestination, and a Wee Bit More. It was written by Dick McEuen and distributed by the First Presbyterian Church of Jasper, Florida. Its representative of scriptures is nothing but modernism. The blessed thing about Christian doctrine is that there is no right or wrong answers. There is no winning an argument or losing an argument. It is not a yes or no situation. It is how people throughout history have looked at the world about them and their relationship to God. So, any study beginning with real realization that there is no absolute proof of this doctrine, scripture seemed to substantiate both sides of any argument. Shakespeare was written when he had Antonio declared the devil can cite scriptures for his purpose.

Arnie: 19:49

Yeah, and that's found in, in a document that's, that's called The Merchant of Venice, parts one and three, and it's, it's also referred to as the fascinating doctrine of predestination. Let's talk about some classic beliefs in and doctrines of the Presbyterian Church. One of those is predestination and predestination is based on the concept that God has predestinated and foreordained, intended for these things to happen. In other words, some men and angels, out of His free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, they don't have to have any at all, and they're fine as far as God is concerned in this way of thinking. It didn't involve any works in man or perseverance in any of them or others where others were ordained to everlasting death, and the number of of either one is so certain and definite that it can't be increased or diminished, it's a constant number there, and you can, you can read about that in, in a document that's called the Westminster Confession of Faith, that's a document that that tells what their beliefs are. If this doctrine is true, it destroys man's free moral agency, and it destroys his ability to choose. You have to do this or that, because that document says so, and whether you think it's right or wrong, you don't have any choice in, in the matter, and, and of course, the Bible recognizes certain traits, and I'm turning back right now to to the book of Revelation, Revelation chapter 22 and verse 17, the Spirit and the bride say, "Come, and let him that heareth say, "Come, let him that is a thirst come and whosoever will that he take of the water of life freely. But he has the option, he could reject it or he can accept it. If he accepts it, it's to his advantage, but he's free, he's not, he's not a slave of the Lord. If he decides that that's, that's not for me, that's not what, what I want to do. And let's go back to the book of Mark, in Mark, chapter 16, verse 16, I'm going to give you verses 15 and 16, speaking of it's Jesus is speaking. He said unto them, Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Of course, he's speaking to the apostles, that was the duty that they were going to fulfill. And then verse 16 says, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned. Now, what's the difference between the outcome of he that believeth and is baptized and he that believeth not? Well, it's not very difficult to see, is it? If you've got your, got your Bible open, he believes and is baptized, and he's saved. He believes not, he's lost. His future eternal home is not a cool place, it's very, very hot.

Glenn: 24:00

Yeah, this, this idea that that Arnie was just talking about, about predestination, I think there's.. it's a real good question to ask, if God predestined or chose certain people to be saved, and those people that he chose before time began were the only ones that would be saved, and that they could not resist being saved, regardless of what they did. Why do we need a Bible?

Arnie: 24:36

Good question. Yeah,

Glenn: 24:38

Christ, we're talking about the New Testament, Christ, as well as all those who wrote after Christ died, wrote talking to us about sin or about doing right, and told us the difference between righteousness and sin. Why would even anybody even need to know what sin was or what righteousness was, if it didn't matter what they did or what they tried to do, they were saved anyhow, and the others were lost. The ones that were lost can't, can't get into the group that are being saved, and the ones who are saved can't get into the group that's being lost. We have to use a little bit of thinking, a little bit of common sense when we read these kind of things, and that's that's what you needed to be thinking about. We wouldn't even need the Bible if these things were true, Salvation by faith only, like other denominations, which are influenced by Calvinism, Presbyterianism embraces this doctrine. We've covered this a number of times in the recent past. It's opposed to the clear biblical teaching. We're looking particularly in James, and this is why some people in the past have wanted to do, do away with the book of James in the Bible, because of the teachings that you find, particularly in James two. James 2, 14 reads, What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works, can faith save him? And you skip to verse 17. Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. And then verse 19, You believe that there is one God, you do well. Now listen to this. We heard this just a few moments ago, or something similar to it. Even the demons believe and tremble. And then verse 24 and this, this one is really about the kicker. Verse 24 you see, then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only. Now, these, these, this teaching of the Bible, it teaches that yes, we have to believe, and believe our faith is the is the is the basis of us coming to know the truth and knowing the truth and being being saved. It's not what God has has chosen in the past that every that certain people would be saved. We have a decision to make. In this passage that we read in James two, if you, and I invite you to read the whole passage. It gives the example of Abraham and how Abraham was justified. Abraham was justified because he followed through with what God told him to do, even though it was a drastic measure, God told him to slay Isaac, his son, upon the offer, altar, yes, and, and Abraham was there, ready to do it, had had the knife above Isaac, laying on the altar, and an angel of God stopped him. So, but Abraham, he was willing to do God's will, whatever it was. These are choices that people make. It's not something that God has predestined us to do. And being saved by faith only, it's directly said that we are not saved by faith only, that we have something to do to prove that faith.

Fred Gosnell: 28:47

In Hebrews 5, 8 and 9 says, That though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered, and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. So obedience is required for an individual to be saved. So then another one of the things that the Presbyterian Church requires is one must confess, they require a confession of the Apostles' Creed. Of course, we've talked about that before. Of course, we noted the last time we talked about the Apostles' Creed, that there is no record of any such creed in the Bible. Doesn't say anything about it. Now, the creed of the faith that we find in the Bible is actually Jesus Christ. He is the one that was sent to save us, and we are to confess our faith in Him. There's a number of passages that say that in Matthew 16, 16 when the Lord asked Peter,'Well, the apostle, whom do you say that I am? And Peter made a confession there. He said, 'He answered, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Then in I think we're all we've talked about the eunuch a number of times that Philip was teaching on the way to Gaza in Acts 8, 36 beginning verse, I think it's verse 35 says Philip opened his mouth and began the same scripture he was teaching the eunuch from Isaiah 53 and you know I'm looking at the time and we're out of time, so we'll read this passage and we'll have to quit, So as they went on their way, they came to a certain water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, "If thou believest, all thine heart thou mayest. And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. So he made the confession, and that's what we are told in Romans 10 verse 10 as well.

Arnie: 30:58

Well, we hope that you will benefit from the things we've talked about this afternoon, and, Lord willing, let's continue these these thoughts next Lord's Day at the same time at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, and we hope that you'll have a good week, and that you'll tune us in again next Lord's Day.