What Does The Bible Say?
30 Minute Discussions Of Bible Subjects
What Does The Bible Say?
What Does the Bible Say About the Methodist Church?
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We begin this episode on the Methodist Church denomination by noting that even though John Wesley founded the Methodist church, he lived and died in the Episcopal Church. According to the Methodist Church, it had its origin within the Church of England. It was in 1729 that John and Charles Wesley began to entertain the beliefs that led to the development of the Methodist Church. John Wesley was a preacher in the Church of England. In this year they joined a group of students called a Holy Club. They were called a number of derisive name including Methodists because of the methods they used. Ultimately they adopted that name for themselves. The first Methodist Society was formed in 1739. Similar organizations were established after that. John Wesley provided rules and regulations for these Methodist Societies in 1784. Also in 1784, the Methodist Episcopal Church in the United States had its beginning. We discuss a number of divisions and unions in the Methodist Church in the USA. We next talk about some of the doctrines, teachings and views of the Methodist Church, including its name, sacraments, baptism of infants, and where they changed their view on Total Hereditary Depravity. We run out of time before completing our discussion of the Methodist Church. We will complete it next week, Take about 30-minutes to listen in on our discussion. Have your Bible handy so you can verify what w are saying. There is a transcript of this Buzzsprout episode provided for your convenience.
This is a presentation of the Woodland church of Christ meeting at 3370 Broad Street in Sumter, South Carolina. We meet for worship on Sunday at ten thirty a.m. and five thirty p.m. We meet for Bible study at nine thirty a.m. on Sunday and seven pm on Wednesday. If you have questions or comments on this lesson, you may email them to Arnie Granke at agranke440718@twc.com or to Glenn Landrum at scbamaboy2003@yahoo.com or to Eric McClam at ericmcclam50@outlook.com or to Fred Gosnell at fgosnell@ftc-i.net.
Arnie:Good afternoon. This is what does the Bible say? Brought to you by the church of Christ at Woodland here in Sumter. We're located at 3370 Broad Street Extension, and we would certainly invite you to come and worship with us, and by all means study study the Word of God together. We've been looking at a number of churches and comparing them with things that they that the Bible said last week we talked about the Episcopal Church, for example, and we've discussed the Presbyterian Church, Lutheran Church, and and the Catholic Church, and probably we'll talk about a few others so that you can get an idea of of what they believe and what the Bible teaches, and just how close they are, or maybe not even close at all, to to what the Bible has to say. Glenn, I think well, I got Glenn and Glenn Landrum and Fred Gosnell and and Eric is is with us also, and I think last week we had talked about or planned to talk about the Methodist Church, but we we didn't get there yet. So who wants to begin that?
Glenn:We'll go this way. Well, we are talking about the Methodist Church tonight, and why this this lesson will be the first bit, and probably most of the the period tonight will will be done just talking about the the specifics of the the Methodist Church, how it was founded, and some of the things that that it believes and the doctrines that it professes, and then after that we'll get into talking about what the Bible says about about those things. So pay attention to to the things we're talking about with with the Methodist Church, and then we'll we'll get into the why some of those things may not be scriptural. Well, John Wesley lived and died in the Episcopal Church, the one that we talked about the last few weeks. He founded a large and popular denomination, the Methodist Church. There are some 20 Methodist denominations in the United States today. The Methodist Church had its beginnings in the early part of the 18th century as part of the Protestant Reformation movement. Fred,
Fred Gosnell:So let's look at the origin and the history of of Methodist Church. Of course, the the origin of Methodism. Now, this is according to the Methodist Church. The Methodist Church did not start as an independent denominational body, but quote Had its origin within the Church of England unquote, and that's in the doctrines and disciplines of the Methodist Episcopal Church, and most of this is going to be from that document. So, in 1729, and again from their own document, two young men in England reading the Bible saw that they could not be saved without holiness. Following after it, and incited others to do the same. So, in 1737 they saw likewise that men are justified before they are sanctified, but still holiness was their object. God then thrust them out to raise a holy people. Again, this is a these are quotes from the doctrines and disciplines of the Methodist Church. So this was the rise of Methodism, as given in the words of its founders, John and Charles Wesley, of Oxford University and presbyters of the Church of England. Again, that's in the doctrines and disciplines of the Methodist Episcopal Church, page 15. So the founder of the Methodist Church was John Wesley. He lived from 1703 to 1791. He was a preacher in the Church of England. So John Wesley was born in the rectory of Epworth, Lincolnshire, in 1703, and educated at Charterhouse School and Christ Church, the University of Oxford. He was the 15th child of British clergyman Samuel Wesley. He was ordained deacon in 1725 and admitted to the priesthood of the Church of England in 1728.
Eric:In 1729, while at Oxford, he, along with his brother Charles, joined a group of students which include George Whitefield, a founder of Calvinistic Methodism, who has formed a holy club. The purpose of the club was to read the New Testament in Greek, and the idea of trying to conform their ideas and behaviors to the teachings of the New Testament. They had no intentions of starting a new denomination, but were rather protesting the formalities, coldness, indifference, and ungodliness in the churches of England. They arranged a daily schedule and of activities, setting hours for visiting the sick and those in prison, and praying aloud three times a day, etc. This group was given nicknames by other students such as Bible Moth, Bible Bigots, and Holy Club, but because the club members adhere strictly and methodically to religious precepts and practices, they were derisively called Methodists, the name which they adopted.
Arnie:Let's go forward to to 1735 and between 1735 and and 1738 30-eight. John Wesley did mission work in the state of Georgia here in the United States. While sailing to America, he had met some German Moravians whose simple piety greatly impressed him. He continued to associate with the Moravians while in Georgia, and even translated some of their hymns, which of course were in German, some of their hymns into English. Upon his return to England in 1738, Wesley sought out the Moravians while attending one of their meetings in Aldersgate Street in London on May 24, 1738. He expressed a religious awakening, awakening, and profoundly convinced him that salvation was possible for every man through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
Glenn:Well, in describing this experience, Wesley said, "I felt my heart strangely, strangely warm. I felt that I did trust in Christ, in Christ alone for salvation, and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death. Some view this experience as the beginning of the Methodist Church. The Methodist Church is young, barely 200 years old. At at this point, it's it's basically about 300 years old, close. But it was born in 1738 when John Wesley's heart was strangely warmed at Aldersgate in London, England. Well, Wesley parted with the Moravians in 1740 because of doctrinal disagreements. He also rejected the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, thus breaking ties with Whitfield. At this point, I'm going to read a passage that's going to talk about what we've just mentioned. This thing about about the experience. Well, Peter, in in writing one of his letters, Second Peter, beginning in verse verse two, and I'm going to go down probably through about verse 10 or 11, and we're going to notice something, and we'll talk about it in just a moment. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus. Jesus Christ, our Lord, as His divine power has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which I have been given us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Now I'm I'm going to stop there. The next verses talk about a spiritual growth in faith and the process that goes by that, and ends up saying that if you have those things, then you you will be whole, and you will be be successful in in Christ. Well, did you notice the things that was mentioned there? That is in the knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ our Lord, giving us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue. It's not by any feeling that anyone has or any experience of feeling that someone has that that determines whether they're saved or not. It's it's through the knowledge that Christ has given us in His Word, that we can be assured that we are are saved by us doing what what He's told us to do, and continuing to follow Him in faith. So, Fred,
Fred Gosnell:Well, of course, everybody has different feelings, and that's the that's the problem when when you start following your feelings has nothing to do with what the Bible says. It has to do with what you feel, and of course, again, this is what does the Bible say, and we want to continue to go by that. And as we read about these various denominations, we find out that there's a lot of things that they do that is beyond what the Bible says. So on May 1 in 1739, then Wesley and a group of his followers they were meeting in a shop on West Street in London. So they formed the first Methodist Society. Of course, we had already noted there that they adopted Methodist as their name from what people were derisively calling them. So there were two similar organizations were also established in Bristol in the same month. So then in 1742, these societies were divided into classes with a leader for each class. 1740-four Wesley called the first conference of Methodist leaders, and conferences were held annually thereafter. So just remember, we had talked about the New Testament is a pattern for us to follow, but in all of the things that these people do, they establish different things that they do contrary to what the Bible says. So then Wesley discarded many of the tenets of the Church of England. Of course, he was not satisfied with them, but he never voiced any intention of establishing the movement as a new church. Of course, these things kind of start moving in that direction, and they have a kind of a life of their own that that men start. So, in 1784, Wesley issued the deed of declaration, which provided rules and regulations for the guidance of the Methodist societies. And again, we'll talk about what's the problem with this here? A little bit later,
Eric:in 1784, he appointed his aid, Thomas Coke, an Anglican clergyman, as superintendent of the Methodist organization in the United States, empowering him to administer the sacraments. Other ordinances followed. Such ordinance represented the biggest step in the directions of a break with the Anglin Church. The separation did not take place until after Wesley's death. The Methodist Episcopal Church of the United States had beginning when the Christian Conference convened in Baltimore on December 24 1984
Fred Gosnell:1784
Eric:Excuse me, 1784 Sorry about that. At this conference, the Book of Discipline prepared by Wesley was adopted, which cut 39 articles of the Episcopal Church down to 20-four articles, then added one to cover the church rules in United States. The Apostles' Creed, inherited by the Episcopal Church from the Catholic Church, was also brought into the Methodist form of worship.
Arnie:There were some major divisions and and also some unions within the Methodist Church. Two notable divisions. One was in 1824 1828 A group separated over, and I'm going to quote something here, the insistence of lay representation is what it was called, becoming known as the Methodist Protestant Church. And then in 1844, there was another division over the issue of of slavery and a constitutional issue over the powers of the General Conference versus versus the episcopacy, and that that is a a quotation there from the Methodist discipline in 1948 1948, two notable unions occurred in 1939. Three main divisions, the Methodist Episcopal Church, the Methodist Episcopal Church South, and the Methodist Protestant Church, all united to form just the Methodist Church without any other terms attached to that. In 1968, the Methodist Church and the Evangelical United Brethren Church joined forces and became the United Methodist Church.
Glenn:The organization of the Methodist Church. The United Methodist Church has an ecclesiastical form of government, something like the Roman Catholic Church. Bishops make decisions, and these are imposed upon the Methodist Church. The Methodist Church is organized into local congregations as they call charges, trustees manage property interests, and stewards handle finances and guide in spiritual matters. The pastor for each charge, a charge is basically a congregation or church, is appointed by the bishop at the annual conference, the government of the Methodist Church is invested in conferences. Quarterly conference meets in local charge in a local charge. The district conference meets annually if authorized by the annual conference. The annual conference covers a defined geographical area, jurisdictional conference meets every four years and its main function is to elect bishops. The general conference meets every four years and is the lawmaking body of the Methodist Church. Now, hopefully, we'll be talking about some of this a little bit later on, but we've we've covered this before about the the church structure that that it's simply Jesus as the head, elders or which could be called bishops as local leaders in congregations, deacons as ones who serve the church and just Christians, nothing else, Fred.`
Fred Gosnell:Yes and well, so let's just look at some of the doctrines and some of the teachings and the views of the Methodist Church. And again, here's some here's some quotes from their doctrines and and disciplines. And this is from page three, quote, The Methodist Church is a church of Christ in which the pure word of God is preached and the sacraments duly administered. So the name Methodist, of course, is not in the Bible. The word sacraments is not in the Bible. But even if it were, the Methodist Church does not duly administer them according to the Bible. So the Methodist Church believes in two sacraments, baptism and the Lord's Supper, and that R. Sockman talks about that in what what is a Methodist. And just a point here that many of the other denominations name the same two sacraments. So then, the Methodist Church has a number of erroneous views on baptism, and it does not observe the Lord's Supper on a weekly basis, as authorized by the New Testament in Acts 20 verse seven, but rather it observes that the Lord's Supper quarterly.
Eric:Let every adult person and the parent of every child be baptized have the choice of sprinkling, pouring, or immersion. You know that's that's the belief that they have according to the doctrine and discipline of the Methodist Church, page 410 Well, let's see what the Bible says about that. Baptism is an immersion, a burial, a buried in, a rising up from the water. We're gonna go to Romans chapter six. Romans chapter six, verses three and four, Romans chapter six, verses three and four says, "Or do you not know that as many as was baptized were baptized in Jesus into his death were baptized into his death. Therefore, we are buried with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should also be walking the newness of life. And also in Colossians chapter two, Colossians two chapter 12, chapter two verse 12 says that we are buried with him in baptism, in which you also were raised with him through faith and working of God, who raised him from the dead. Raised him from the dead, and that's immersion into the water and coming up out of the water, being a new person, and also there is only one baptism in Ephesians four, verse five. Ephesians four verse five says, "There is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. Thank you.
Arnie:Okay, the baptism of infants is justified by the Methodist Church on the basis that Jesus said, "Suffer the children to come to me, and that's a quote from the doctrines and disciplines of the Methodist Church, and one of the articles in the article is the 1910 pages 470 to 474. Baptism isn't under consideration in Matthew chapter 18, infants were never baptized in the first century. Only adults were baptized, and only adults who believed that Jesus Christ was was the Son of of God. The practice of infant baptism in in the Methodist Church is difficult for Methodists to explain for those those obvious reasons. That they changed their view on total hereditary depravity in 1910. They no longer believe that children are born in sin, but up to that point, everybody just inherited sin. Not so at the at the time of birth, in the case of of children, and verse page 349 of the discipline in 190``8 with page 470 of the discipline in 1948 are places that you can turn if you have those documents in your library and and check them out. Here's a quotation, Dearly beloved, for as much as all men are conceived and born in sin, that's from the discipline in 1908 page 349. And dearly beloved, for as much as all men are heirs of eternal life, from the discipline in 1948 1948, page 70. Do you notice that that what you have there is a little bit contradictory? Are are you in fact an heir of eternal life when you're born, or are you born in sin? Well, the fact of the business is neither one actually is is stated in God's word. The closest that they can come would would have to do with with your when you're born. You're not you you'll have any sins on your your account. But then time comes when you learn the gospel and you need to obey the gospel, and things would not be so well for you in eternity if you if you don't abide by that. So there there seems to be no logical basis, even in Methodist doctrine. Or anything with regard to baptism of infants.
Glenn:The Methodist discipline gives rules, doctrines, regulations governing all procedures and affairs of the church, and all ministers obligated to observe every part of it in their districts. The scriptures constitute God's only authorized guide for the church, Second Timothy 3, 16 and 17. If you've been with us for very long, you've heard us read that scripture many times, and and I'll read it again. Second Timothy 3, 16 and 17. I believe we probably read it last week. We we come to this one a lot. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. Well, this simply tells us that that the Bible, which is the Scriptures, all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. That means that it was God breathed; that God is the one that said said these things, and that these Scriptures are good for us for our doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness. There's not anything else we need beyond that. The scriptures give us everything we need. We don't need any other documents made by men to control how the church operates and what the church does, or what we do as individual Christians. The scriptures constitute God's only authorized guide for the church. We just read that nothing is to be added or taken away from the Word of God. Revelation 22, 18 and 19, and we've read this one a number a number of times as well. For I testify to everyone who hears the words of this prophecy, this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book, this prophecy, God shall take away His part from the book of life, for from the holy city and from the things which are written in the book. Simply, simply this is saying, we don't have the authority to change anything in the Scriptures in the Bible. It is God's word, and it has it's a it's all authoritative to us. We need to follow it completely. No other doctrine, principle, precept, commandment, procedure, or policy is to be taught by man or angel or other than that which is given to the apostles. And I know we read this one last week, Galatians one, verses eight and nine. This is where Paul is talking to the church in Galatia, and he mentions that he is very amazed at what happens. Verse, I'm going to start in verse six. I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel, to which is not another. But there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven preach any gospel to you other than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed, as we have said before. So I say again: If anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have heard or received, let him be accursed. The gospel that we hear and read is is the Bible. If there's something different, if people in a conference or some kind of a diocese or anything else, a group of people come up and make a different rule than what is in the Bible, it's wrong.
Fred Gosnell:Of course, that shows that this tendency to go beyond what the Bible says started very early, so when you look at the complex organization of the Methodist Church with all its conferences and powers and duties that are set forth in in the discipline, you understand that it becomes pretty complicated. Of course, the Church of Christ, seen in the New Testament, had no ecclesiastical governing bodies. Each local congregation in the New Testament was independent of all others, with Christ alone as the head. Notice Colossians one, verse 18. It says, "He, Christ, is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence." And then in Ephesians 1, 20-two, and 20-three, there it says that, He had put all things under his feet, gave him to be head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all. I see that we're about out of time, so we're going to have to to continue this on next week, and we'll continue talking about the various things that the Methodist Church goes by, and the things that are contrary to what the New Testament says. So, take some time to listen to what we have to say here and have your Bible out when we're talking about these things and make sure that verify that the things that we say are in fact what the Bible teaches and compare that with the church that we're talking about maybe the one that that you're a member of and think about the things that we need to do in order to be faithful to the Lord. So, Lord willing, we'll see you next week, same time, and we'll discuss some more of the things that the Methodist Church does and the authority that they use to do it, which is their their discipline. See you next week.