What Does the Bible Say About the Methodist Church #2?

We continue in this episode by noting that the Methodist Church consists of a complex organization including numerous conferences, powers and duties as set forth in their Discipline. Glenn discusses the simplicity of the Lord's church as outlined in the Bible. We talk about the fact that no member of the Methodist Church may preach without a license, contrary to what the New Testament teaches. We discuss what women do in the Methodist Church that the Bible doesn't say anything about. We note that the term "reverend" is used as a title for Methodist ministers when the Bible applies that term to God exclusively. Like many other denominations, the Methodist Church teaches the doctrine of justification by faith only. We note what James clearly says in James Chapter 2. We discuss the doctrinal position the Methodist church holds on baptism and show by what the Bible says that they are wrong. We close out this episode by comparing what the Methodist Church requires concerning marriage and divorce and what the Bible says. Take about 30-munutes to listen in on our discussion. Have your Bible handy so you can verify what we are saying. There is a transcript of this Buzzsprout episode provided for your convenience.

Transcript

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Fred Gosnell: 0:00

This is a presentation of the Woodland church of Christ meeting at 3370 Broad Street in Sumter, South Carolina. We meet for worship on Sunday at ten thirty a.m. and five thirty p.m. We meet for Bible study at nione thirty a.m. on Sunday and seven pm on Wednesday. If you have questions or comments on this lesson, you may email them to Arnie Granke at agranke440718@twc.com, or to Glenn Landrum at scbamaboy2003@yahoo.com, or to Eric McClam at ericmcclam50@outlook.com, or to Fred Gosnell at fgosnell@ftc-i.net.

Arnie: 0:56

Good afternoon. This is Arnie Granke, and I'm here with Fred Gosnell and and Glenn and Eric and this is what does the Bible say and brought to you by the church of Christ at Woodland here in Sumter, South Carolina. We would certainly invite you to come and worship with us, study with us. If you've never obeyed the gospel, we would be delighted to sit down and and work with you on that and and get that taken care of, so that you're in good shape with with the Lord. And we've been talking about a number of different churches denominations that are pretty common in in our area of South Carolina, and I think probably pretty common in most of the United States, and even some other places as as well. And so we ended up last week speaking a little bit about the Methodist Church and the things that they they believe, but we didn't get to finish up. We ran out of time, and and so let's pick up where we left off. And Glenn, I guess I guess you're the fellow to start that off.

Glenn: 2:21

Well, last week we ended up talking about the the complex organization of Methodist Church with all its conferences, powers, duties that are set forth in the discipline. The Church of Christ, or the church that is that is mentioned in the New Testament is one that is very simple. The structure, the organization is is very simple. Based on the scripture of Matthew 16 verse 18, we we learned that Jesus said that I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not stand against it. Well, Jesus was saying that He would build His church, and if He built His church, that church belonged to Him. Therefore, we should look to His Word to see how that church was set up in the New Testament, we don't find a complex organization in the New Testament for the structure of the church. We find Christ as the head of the church, elders of local congregations ruling over the congregation, then deacons to serve, and members of the body. There's there's no other organization or structure mentioned in in the Bible. Therefore, we cannot go beyond that. That's what we we have to be bound by, and we have to by bind those things what the Bible says upon the churches that we attend and worship with. So, beginning today, the next item that we have here is no member of the Methodist Church may preach without a license. That's from the the Methodist doctrines and discipline. There's nothing in the New Testament that mentions about having any kind of specific education, Specific schooling, any kind of document that gives a license or a credential that certifies a person to be a preacher. A simple basis for preaching the gospel in the church of the Lord is simply that you know the gospel, and you present it. As a matter of fact, Christ told us all to go about and then preach the gospel. The apostles didn't have any kind of special training other than being with Jesus. They didn't go to any kind of school to learn what they needed to teach. Yet one, what we know as the Great Commission, Christ said, and Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Well, he was speaking to the apostles at that time. They had been taught by him, but they didn't go to any kind of school. They didn't have any kind of credentials. They didn't have any kind of license to say that they were authorized to preach the gospel. Neither do do people today have to have any kind of credential or license or certification in order to preach the gospel. Fred.

Fred Gosnell: 6:35

Well, the Bible talks about women, but we never find them preaching publicly. And of course, Methodist Church has them doing a number of things publicly, and and we have a Paul in First Timothy chapter two, what he said there in verse 12, he said, "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence, or to be be quiet and don't interrupt. So there's two things in that passage. She is not to teach new, nor usurp authority over the man. So necessarily, if you have a mixed congregation, a woman has no authority to stand before the congregation to be in a position of authority over over the men in the congregation. And besides, you just don't find that in the New Testament. And one we've talked about the pattern that we find in the Bible in the New Testament. That's part of the pattern. Men do all of the public standing before the congregation and and leading the congregation. It's never never the women. Of course, the Methodist Church allows the women to engage in ministry or preaching, except they can't be traveling evangelists. And again, Bible doesn't authorize it because it's never done there. And as we all have said many times, we've got to follow the pattern that we find in the New Testament. If we do things differently, then we are going beyond what it teaches.

Eric: 8:28

And also going along with that, Fred, concerning about the women, let's go to First Corinthians 14. First Corinthians 14, verse 34. It says, "Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law. So there's there's another passage right there that um that we can use as far as going going along with what you just said, Fred. Well, we talked about the women, but you know, women may engage in ministry that we just talked about that. But this is without scriptural scriptural proceedings or authority, which we already talked about that right there, but we're going to talk about the title reverend. You know, many many denominations they they use that title, call themselves reverend or rev or or or that sort. But they must realize that you know when when you're using that word, you're talking about God, because God is the only person that is reverend. In the Book of Psalms, the Book of Psalms, 111, Psalm 111, verse nine. I'm gonna start with verse eight, and it says,"They stand, they stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in the truth and unrighteousness. He sent redemption unto his people. He hath command his covenant for the covenant forever. Holy and reverent is his name, and that is referring to God. So anybody who is trying to use that title, calling themselves a reverend, they're trying to make themselves equal with God, and that is and that is is unacceptable.

Arnie: 10:36

There's also a justification that's that's called justification of faith, and it's only it only is a most wholesome doctrine. The the Methodist booklets and so forth say that it's a a most wholesome doctrine and and and I lost my place here.

Glenn: 11:10

Very full of comfort.

Arnie: 11:11

Yeah, very and very full of comfort. Thank you, thank you. With with that. And this this is a doctrine that stands Opposed to to the plain teaching of the Bible, James chapter two, for example, is is a passage that I think we ought to examine. In In James chapter two, and beginning in in verse 14, James asks the question,"What doth profit, my brother, though a man say he have faith and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or a sister be naked and destitute of food, and if one of you say unto them, Depart in peace and be ye warmed and filled. Notwithstanding, you give them not those things which are needful to the body. Doth doth it profit? Even so, faith, if it hath not works, is dead, Being alone, yea, a man may say, "Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. And that's a that's an important concept here. Do they really have faith if they're not working, if they can't, if they're not doing something that's beneficial to to the Word of God, beneficial to their to their brethren? That that just doesn't make any sense. Verse 19 says, "Thou believest that there's one God. Thou doest well. The devils also believe and and tremble. So it's good for us to to believe the fact that there's that there's only one God, and and that's what the what the Bible teaches. But but then in this case here, we're falling. We would be falling short of doing what what the Bible teaches. But wilt thou know, O vain man, faith without works is dead? And then Abraham is used as an illustration of that. In verse 21, was not Abraham our father justified by works? Do do works not justify? It seemed to justify Abraham there. So see, is how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect, and the Scripture was fulfilled, which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God. You see then how that by works a man is justified contrary to what the Methodist doctrine teaches, and not by faith only.

Glenn: 14:34

Well, the next area we'd like to discover is that the Methodists would say that the forgiveness of sins and new life must come before the administration of baptism. The Methodist Church regards water baptism as a church ordinance and not essential to salvation. Well, there are many denominations that that believe the same thing. And would teach that that baptism is not necessary for salvation, although that is just not not a scriptural stand. We have to look at the scriptures and see what the scriptures say in order to to see what what is required. And so, concerning baptism, we'll look at a few a few passages. Acts 238, which you've heard as I mentioned a number of times. Peter had been preaching his the first gospel sermon after Christ had had been raised from the dead and ascended to heaven, and so he was in Pentecost 50, 50 days after Christ had done had had ascended to heaven, or 40 days after Christ had ascended to heaven. So, and this was on the day of Pentecost, and there were there were Jews from all over the world in in attendance of the day of Pentecost, or the celebration of the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem, and that's that was the opportune time for the apostles to be preaching. So Peter preached that first gospel sermon, told them how Christ had died for their sins, and that that he was now sitting on the right hand of God. In verse 37 of Acts two, he says. Now, when when they heard this, this is the people that he was preaching to. When they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said to them, "Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now, if you look at the the sequence of that, it it automatically tells you that salvation does not come prior to the baptism. The baptism comes forgiveness of sins follows, and then salvation, which is the gift, the Holy Ghost comes after that. The next we'll take take a look at is Acts 22 verse 16. Well, now we all know Paul, and Paul yeah was called Saul before he was his name was changed, and we all know the story of Paul that he was on the road to Damascus and going to persecute Christians there, and he was he was struck down by Jesus and and struck blind, and and he Jesus told him what he needed to do. He needed to go on to Damascus, meet Ananias, and Ananias would tell him what he needed to do. Okay, and in verse 16 of chapter 22, Ananias tells Paul, "And now, why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Well, once again,

look at the sequence: 18:06

be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Calling on the name of the Lord in this case is the the act of being baptized, and therefore the washing away of the sins follows the being baptized. Next one, Galatians 3, 26 and 27. Galatians 3, 26 and 27. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. In order to get into Christ, in order to put on Christ, we have to be baptized. And finally, we'll look at First Peter, First Peter 3, 21, and a lot of a lot of people in denominations get this wrong, and they read it read it wrong. But first, First Peter 321. Peter is talking here, and I'm going to be verse 21 says there is also an antitype, which now saves us, baptism, not the removal of the fruit of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at right hand to God. Angels and authorities and powers have been made subject to Him. Well, once again, look at the sequence of the writing there. What is it that saves us? It says baptism. So we we can't escape what what the New Testament teaches. The New Testament teaches that baptism. Is required for salvation.

Fred Gosnell: 20:02

Well, that section where they had you were talking about First Corinthians 12, 20, and that's that talks about baptism puts us into the one body, the church. And the first place we need to look is Romans six three and four. Now notice what it says there. Paul writes says, "Know you not that so many of us, as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death. Therefore, we are buried with him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Then, First Corinthians chapter 12 verse 20, there he says, "But now are there many members, but yet one body. So we are, if you're not, and and we are baptized in the name of the Lord by His authority. When when we obey that, we are we are obeying what the Lord commands, and and all of the things that you read is what baptism does, and but but we are baptized into that one body. And remember what what Luke wrote at the end of Acts chapter two, when when he wrote there in in verse verse 47. Notice that he said that praising God and having favor with all the people, and the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Now, who did He add to the church? Well, He added those who repented and were baptized. Well, how were they added to the church? Well, when they were baptized, and the Lord only adds those who are baptized according to the New Testament, Ephesians four four and five says there's one Lord, one baptism. There's only one one baptism that saves, and that's the one that the New Testament describes. And if people obey a baptism that's taught to them by a denominational church, then they're following the wrong baptism. They're doing it by the authority of that man-made church, but not by the authority of the Lord.

Eric: 22:11

Thinking about talking about the baptism, but you know, in instructing the ministers according to the Methodist doctrine, instructing the ministers not to perform marriage ceremonies for a divorced person whose husband or wife is still living and unmarried. The discipline then says, but this rule will not apply to the innocent person when it is clearly established by competent testimony that the true cause of divorce was adultery or other viscious conditions, which through mental or physical perils invalidated the marriage vows, and you will find that in their Discipline 1948 book, page 107. But let's see what the New Testament says about that. The New Testament only allows one condition for divorce and remarriage, and that is sexual immorality, and you will find that in Matthew chapter five, Matthew chapter five, and we're gonna start with verse 31. Gonna read 31 and 32, and it says, "It has been said, whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement. That was talked about back in in the Old Testament during the time of of Moses, when um when uh the law was written about the men giving doing having divorces for any any reason. I mean, back then you could divorce your wife or whatever for any reason. But in verse 32, it says, "But I say unto you, and this talk about Christ, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, cause her to commit adultery, and who whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. So Christ said it have to be because of sexual immorality, and whoever puts her away because of fornication committeth adultery.

Arnie: 24:41

And and and the bottom line of that is is the fact that only the innocent partner is eligible to to remarry, and and that just doesn't happen in in a lot of the denominations anymore. If you divorce your wife, nobody's going to decide whether or not you ought to do something, and they'll just they'll just accept that. What we need to do is look at what the Bible says and try to impress an individual that if you're having sexual relationships outside of that marriage, then you need to repent of that and you need to stop it there. And and that doesn't seem to be the emphasis that a lot of the lot of these denominations seem to be fllowing there. So Revelation chapter 22, I think, is another another passage that would be valuable for us to to take a look at. Chapter 22, and and down at at verse 18 is is where John writes, and he says, "I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book. And he's speaking about the book that he has just had the pen and paper providing there. That's been given him by the Holy Spirit, And so that's what he's talking about here. If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. I don't know of any Protestant denominations that haven't added many things and not just any things, many things to to God's word, and and then John continues down in verse 19. If any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city, and from the things written in this book. And and so it's it's very important that we stick to God's word and and not begin to follow whatever instructions we're given the pastor in in some denominational school that he has has attended. God's word is is what we're going to be judged on not the pastor's word of of mine. So I'm just going to add two more verses here. The last two verses of Revelation 22. He that testifieth these things saith, and that was Jesus. Surely I come quickly. And John says, Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all, Amen. Follow God's word, not the pastor's word.

Glenn: 28:08

We've actually come to the to the end of this lesson, but I'd like to to look look back at one of the things that was mentioned just a few moments ago, and and I believe maybe it was not not as clear as it should be, and this was on the the subject of marriage and divorce. Eric was talking about under the in the old system the the the time before Christ that that people had been given the the opportunity or the right to to divorce their their spouses just about for any reason, but that was not the way it was intended to be, and that's not what God had intended from the beginning, and that's exactly what Jesus teaches. For he said in what we read before. Furthermore, it's been said, whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce. Then he said he he makes his comment on that, and he says, "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason other than sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. So Jesus is saying

that is the standard: 29:35

that if someone divorces their spouse for something other than sexual immorality is not a valid divorce. We can look in Matthew Matthew 19 as well, and the the Pharisees had approached Jesus and they they tried they tried to trip him up just like they always always do, and they. Came and they said to him, testifying and saying to him, Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason? And he answered and said to them, Have you not read that he who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this reason a man shall to leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no man separate. They said to him, Why did then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce and to put her away? And he said to them, Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. Jesus was saying what Moses had allowed them to do was not the way God intended it to be. God intended it to be one man, one woman for life, and the only reason for divorce would be sexual immorality.

Arnie: 31:07

Well, that runs us out of time, I think, brother. We hope that you'll listen to us again next Lord's Day. We'll pick up another topic, and we hope that you'll have a good week. Come visit us at 3370 Broad Street Extension at the church of Christ at Woodland. We'll look forward to to seeing you there. Have a good week.