Real or Robot? Navigating Candidate Fraud in the Age of AI

Is the candidate on your screen a real person or a deepfake? It's a question more recruiters are having to ask. In this episode of DE Talk, Shannon Offord sits down with Dwaine Maltais, Chief Strategy Officer at Nexxt to tackle the growing issue of candidate fraud.

They explore the "trifecta" driving this surge–AI, automation, and accessibility–and share practical advice on how recruiters can spot red flags, verify candidate identities, and introduce good friction into the hiring process without ruining the candidate experience.

Transcript

DirectEmployers Association (00:00):

Get ready. The DE Talk podcast starts now, insightful conversations and dialogue, helping you put the human factor back in HR.

(00:08):

Without question, AI is here to stay between the automation and solutions available. It's transforming nearly every part of the recruiting process from sourcing and screening to interviewing, hiring, and onboarding. But with those advancements come challenging times that many TA teams are grappling with bots and AI driven candidate fraud. Today we're tapping into industry expert Dwaine Maltais, the Chief Strategy Officer at Next, diving into what candidate fraud really looks like today, why it's increasing so rapidly, and how recruiters can spot red flags before fraudulent candidates make it too far into the hiring process. We'll also talk about the risks to employers from wasted time and budget to serious security concerns and what practical steps organizations can take to protect their hiring efforts while still delivering a strong candidate experience.

Shannon Offord (00:56):

Hello everyone and welcome to the DE Talk podcast. I'm your host, Shannon Offord, VP of Strategic Partnerships here at DirectEmployers. Today we've got an exciting episode and we're going to talk about something that a lot of people in TA are grappling with, and that is bots and AI driven candidate fraud. And I could think of no better guest to have on the podcast than Dwaine Maltaise, chief strategy officer of Nexxt. Over the last few years, I've gotten a chance to know Dwaine a little bit better and know he is very well versed in this subject. So welcome, Dwaine.

Dwaine Maltais (01:35):

Thanks, Shannon. Great to be here. And also really excited about the topic. We deal with it a lot over at Nexxt. I know our clients and employers do. I know your employers do as well, so quite excited to get a chance to spend some time together on it.

Shannon Offord (01:50):

Yeah. Well, I'm excited and looking forward to having a conversation. So before we get started, just tell us just a little bit about yourself and Nexxt.

Dwaine Maltais (01:58):

So Nexxt is a talent sourcing platform. You may have known us in various incarnations over the years with our network of job boards, our database, 150 million candidates for sourcing programmatic advertising. So all things kind of top of the funnel, helping employers reach talent at scale. So that's a little bit about next and a little bit about me is, as you said, I'm a chief strategy officer. A number of things that I do at next to kind of focus on our strategic initiatives and areas of growth and innovation. And one of the areas that I've been focusing a lot on over the past couple of years is candidate fraud, bots and all the things that I think we're going to talk about today as we kind of go through this. So like I said, really excited about the topic. It's timely. We deal with it every day, and I know it's becoming a bigger and bigger problem for employers.

Shannon Offord (02:44):

Well, obviously fraud and recruiting is not new. It's been around probably since people started trying to find employment. Why is it becoming such a big issue lately?

Dwaine Maltais (02:57):

You're right. I mean, it's not new and I agree company's been dealing with employment fraud and recruiting fraud frankly, since the space began and folks started hiring people. I think the difference today though is the reality is I think there's three main drivers that we we're experiencing today. It's different from the past. So A is just the rise in pervasiveness of AI. It's everywhere. It's being touted as the solution for everything. It's being touted as the problems for a lot of things too, but AI is definitely a key driver. I think the other one that is maybe not as impactful, but certainly right there in the number two slot, it's advances in automation and that's also helped through AI. So that's not a standalone, but I think more than ever before, automation tools have become really sophisticated and they've also become really accessible. And I think that's the third leg of the stool. Accessibility, AI and automation in the form of easy to use tools. They're freely available in a lot of cases. They're literally everywhere. So in my mind, AI plus automation, plus accessibility, those three pieces come together to make the trifecta and I think it creates a perfect environment for fraud and recruiting to grow. And I think that's what we're seeing.

Shannon Offord (04:14):

Yeah, I guess we should have really probably gotten more of a definition of what candidate fraud is today. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and maybe give more of a definition of that?

Dwaine Maltais (04:24):

Sure. I mean, well, I guess my simple way of thinking about it is anyone that's intentionally misrepresenting their identity, skillset, qualifications, experience during the hiring process is a good definition of candidate fraud. It really hasn't changed, just like the practice from that standpoint. But it's not a mistake on a resume. It's not trying to put your best foot forward. It's literally a misrepresentation and it generally is intentional in that regard. So that's what I kind consider the definition. I don't know if that's kind of the same one you consider, but I think that's the way I would.

Shannon Offord (05:05):

Yeah, exactly. I just want to make sure that we all kind of level set. We knew we were kind of talking about the same thing. So AI, like you mentioned, obviously pretty much everywhere you go people are talking about AI. If you go to McDonald's or some of the other restaurants out there, AI is there as well, specifically around bots. Quickly, I was at McDonald's a couple months back and I was talking to, asked my wife what she wanted, ordered the food, whatever, and I'm sitting here having this conversation with what I thought was a real person and my wife goes, you know that's a bot, right? And I felt kind of silly. What really, as it relates to bots, what's changed to make them a bigger threat in today's recruiting?

Dwaine Maltais (05:51):

So I mean, again, you're right. Automation in the form of bots have been around for and lots of years. They keep getting better and better. Exactly. They were behind the scenes. They automate redundant tasks. They're helpful in many ways from its standpoint. Way back in 1998, Google came online and started using a crawler to go and visit websites, and that's how they built their data index. Of all the places that you can search and find there, that's a bot, still is a bot. Google Bot's a bot there today, running today. And that same concept of automation I think has evolved a lot technically over the years. But again, back to the original point that I was making before, it's also become a lot more accessible. So bots are not controlled by data scientists for data scraping and the things anymore that were happening back then.

(06:45):

Bots are used to automate routine tasks. If you look at some of the advancements, as you said in AI, combining with that automation and bots, they're sitting on their desktop. I use Windows and there's a lot of new tools and bots showing up on my Windows 11 desktop every day. So I mean, I think it's that pervasiveness, that accessibility of them I think really drives some of what is becoming the threat around AI and bots. And then now they're getting specialties, so you don't have to go out and find a general purpose tool and train it and teach it how to do things, job seeking or recruiting. They're specialized for that. The AI, the tools, the bots now can drive really advanced automation for finding jobs and mass applying for jobs, participating in interviews all throughout screening and selection, and really just getting deeper into the hiring process and even leading to fraudulent hires, which we'll talk about in a few minutes. But bots and AI driving, those bots are really being used more and more today. They're everywhere. And as you said, they're really being used for both good things and also fraudulent things that we're talking

Shannon Offord (07:55):

About. Yeah, I think, I was actually looking at this article the other day and it talked about there was a 70% rise in fraud with recruiting and interviewing and that type thing. And I know you mentioned accessibility, and I know that's a big part of that, but are there other reasons why you think this is happening as well or is it?

Dwaine Maltais (08:15):

Yeah, that's 70%. I think that was a Forbes article on one of their reports and coming from HR leaders, so right from the folks that are experiencing it on the wise side, I look at it, the current job market doesn't help.

Shannon Offord (08:29):

Well, yeah

Dwaine Maltais (08:29):

It's tough to find a job right now. The process applying a job, it's redundant, it's cumbersome, it can be super frustrating. I think it also is magnified by candidates that get little or no feedback after applying to a job. It feels like it's not a human thing to do. I mean, I'm going out, I'm searching for a job, I'm spending 10 minutes, I hope 20, 30, 40 minutes applying for a job, and I hit the button finally and it goes in and maybe I hear back many times I won't. So I think that can be the tools and understanding if there's something out there as a job seeker that can give me an advantage, that's going to be super tempting now. And then with all of the pervasiveness of AI and automation there as well, it just magnifies itself. There's that kind of driver that's out there for the reality of what people are experiencing in the market today.

(09:23):

And then you've got truly bad actors. You've got foreign entities using the same tools, maybe not the exact same tools, maybe the exact same tools in some cases, not just to get a job, but to actually infiltrate companies as employees or contractors. So I think the technology's available. It's come incredible exponentially long ways, and it's a tough market right now. So I think there's a lot of, it's not just a single thing that I think is driving it. There's a lot of reasons that I think folks are finding these tools and in some cases abusing these tools to try and get an advantage.

Shannon Offord (09:59):

At our annual meeting last year, we had a session around AI and one of our members was talking about how one of her recruiters actually had told her that one of the candidates had used an avatar instead of putting themselves on camera and was like, you know what? That had to be a fake interview. I know there's some scenarios like that. I know that there's situations where people are even using actors and all these other things. Do you think this is becoming really common, or is it just kind of one-offs or what do you think the prevalence?

Dwaine Maltais (10:35):

I think it's more common than you might think. I went and did a little more research on that as well. Again, at Nexxt we sit on the front end of the process. So a lot of times our exposure is in that initial connection point versus kind of the downstream interactions, the interviewing, what have you. But it's more common than you would think. I was just reading, CrowdStrike released a report in August in the last 12 months. They were seeing AI fraud and in particular, deep fake AI fraud. So the types of things you were saying, not just avatars but actual humans or look like humans kind of working through those things either in imagery or voice or video. But anyways, in the report they released in August, it showed that North Korean software developers had infiltrated 320 companies using AI DeepFakes automation. So that was a much bigger footprint than I would've thought. And that increase in use is a much bigger use than I would have thought. And granted, that's a pretty sophisticated approach that I think used a large network of resources. It wasn't just AI fakes and videos, it was folks feeding other people information and networks and a lot of things going on. But if you read that report, it was really interesting to see the level of sophistication and coordination combined with the technology there. So I mean, clearly it's happening and at least in the short term, the pace is increasing.

Shannon Offord (11:57):

I mean, I've heard of situations where before they answer a question, they're kind of conferring with some of the different AI tools that are out there, but I wasn't real sure how prevalent these deepfake interviews really are. I mean, you obviously hear onesie twosie situations, but it sounds like it's becoming more and more common. What should recruiters be watching out for in regards to these types of interviews?

Dwaine Maltais (12:21):

You're right. I mean, it's not all about a deep fake. I mean, that's not where it's all happening. So it's different forms to your point, can be assembled. It's simple as somebody looking up an answer while you're having a conversation with 'em in virtual interviews, which may or may not be allowed. So I mean, that's not always a bad thing necessarily, but if you're presenting it as it's extemporaneous, then that could be a problem. Another report is I kind of look at and look for evidence of that out in the market. HR DIVE did a report that 25% of hiring managers are now reporting that they've run into imposters during their interviews, that's in research that's been in the past year, and that they're seeing more and more use of deep fake video and or audio incorporated into it. Recruiters have got to be watching for it.

(13:10):

They've got to be listening for it, reading for it, and for inconsistencies and those types of responses, the behaviors, and just generally looking for inconsistencies with engaging with candidates, whether digitally or in person. I think one of the main things to look for is what's being represented to you. Is it verifiable? Not every sentence, not every word, but the material skills, the material experience, the material proof that you are, who your digital paper says you are, they're verifiable things, and how can you tease those things out is really what recruiters should be looking for in their experiences there.

Shannon Offord (13:47):

And what, sure, I mean obviously before an interview could ever take place, obviously there probably is a resume involved. What are your thoughts around AI generated resumes, which obviously I think is very common today, but I do think there's a level of fraud that can be involved there as well.

Dwaine Maltais (14:10):

Sure. But I mean, I think it's the line that you cross when you're misrepresenting something versus again, trying to put your best foot forward. I mean, how many resume writing services are still out there and have been out there for years to try and help you improve your resume, your digital presence? None of that's new. That's not AI's fault. That's just someone really trying to put their best foot forward. Not everyone is a great writer. Not everyone can introspectively look at their and skills and time and career and turn that into a good narrative on paper or digital paper. So in that regard, I don't have any problem with it when it crosses the line of reality into going beyond just putting your best foot forward into making things up, I think that's the line that gets crossed. That's when we go into fraud. That's where employers I know have a problem with.

(15:05):

I think I have a problem with it from that standpoint. It's not necessarily the use of the tools, but when you cross the line from something that is true and verifiable about you and your experience related to the position that you're interested in or the career that you're interested in versus just making things up and even, and one more point there is AI by default, if you're putting your resume in and you're asking it to clean it up, I mean outside of inserting a few more in dashes in there, its intent is to reorganize the data. Certainly you have to proof it and make sure new stuff isn't being injected into it. But that's not really one of those cases where we hear things like hallucinations and, oops, I was the CEO of Amazon in my last role. That's not an oops, right? That's not even an AI. That's deliberate and it takes someone with intention that lets those things through. So it's not all technology and AI's fault in that regard, but when you're misrepresenting something, we'll go, just go back to our definition of fraud. I think that's where it crosses.

Shannon Offord (16:10):

Employers are using AI and their recruitment process, and a lot of them are even using AI to help generate jobs, descriptions, to set up interviews for interview questions. Employers are using it, and I do think there's probably some level of that where job seekers candidates can use it as well. But I think like you mentioned, when they're deliberately trying to misrepresent themselves, I think there becomes an issue. I know of some employers now who are saying, Hey, you know what? You can use AI in the process. However, when you're actually during the interview itself, we'd like to really get to know you and not, you shouldn't be using those types of tools during the actual interview itself. So

Dwaine Maltais (17:04):

I mean, again, and that sets the stage as long as the ground rules are clear and both sides understand what they are, then again, when you cross that line, the line needs to be clear, but that's when the fraud happens.

Shannon Offord (17:17):

How effective do you feel that skills, tasks, maybe identity verification and live problem solving tools are and trying to help eliminate fraud?

Dwaine Maltais (17:28):

I think it helps. I mean, individually, I think they can help. I mean certainly identity verification, interactive problem solving, whether it's face-to-face or digital face-to-face, that's going to be harder to automate without pauses and changes at least today in that regard. I think all of those things can kind of help combat fraud. It can help combat determining who could be a bad actor. But I think the real value in that, at least the through line there is in the layers themselves, that it's not one way of doing. If I use a test, I mean, how many times have you read? I certainly have a lot over the years where well-known employers, a lot of the stories that I've read have always been around kind of technical slanted roles, but we'll have very specific kind of test questions, both some for very technical skills and some for just how do you behave in a situation?

(18:23):

And inevitably you find those questions, those interview questions sitting out on websites and shared where interview feedback is shared before any of this automation, and at least AI as we know it today kind of came into play. So again, I don't think one of those things are necessarily bulletproof, but the fact that you're layering it in and the fact that you've got visibility across those layers, I think that's where collectively they can help combat the fraud problem. And it can be tough to orchestrate from hrs perspective to kind of work with those layers because sourcer can hand off to recruiter or recruiter has back and forth with the hiring managers. There's a lot of different touch points in that pipeline, not only from technology and logistics, but also from candidate experience. So having someone go through a layered process, absolutely nothing wrong with that. But where I think we have to be really careful is we can't assume that someone is being fraudulent upfront. I mean, remember, we're still hiring humans. It's an interview. It's not interrogation or shouldn't be an interrogation from that standpoint. So that's the balance that we have to find a way to strike. But just patently looking at multiple layers of different types of engagement at different times I think can definitely help root out fraud, root out any bakery that's going on in the background.

Shannon Offord (19:47):

I think a lot of companies are so concerned with how the interview process goes and making sure that they're making decisions quickly so they're not dragging the process out. I think some employers may be fearful of maybe adding some of those steps because like I said, it just takes a little bit longer. But I think in order to make sure that you're protecting the company, that adding a step here or there to make sure that you're dealing with rural candidates makes a lot of sense.

Dwaine Maltais (20:17):

It does. And we call that again, we're kind of on the front end of recruiting at Nexxt. And so in our world, we call that good friction and we're kind of looking at it. We don't want to, for us, the last thing in the world that we want to do is put a barrier in front of a potential job seekers showing interest in one of our employers of their jobs. We don't want to put any kind of barrier there. We've had to introduce good friction points along the way to make sure that we're not just helping a bot be passed along downstream into the process. So I agree it can be costly from a transactional standpoint. It's new training and new processes, but I still think good friction in the process can go a long way to help the fraud problem. Bad friction in the process is just that friction. It's just going to slow things down. I'm not sure. In a lot of ways, some of the approaches that I'm seeing pulled forward are really helping it out. And again, I go back to these are candidates, these are people we have to treat them like people. Give them the benefit of the doubt and try and build that connection to see if it's going to be a fit for them to come into our company or not. But at the end of the day, it shouldn't be bots talking to bots to make these decisions.

Shannon Offord (21:35):

So what are some of the risks associated with fraudulent candidates actually getting through the process?

Dwaine Maltais (21:41):

So I think I look at it in, I guess it's not benign, but when I think about it in the most benign form, it costs companies time and money. It costs companies time and money to engage with a candidate throughout the hiring process, recruiter's, time hiring manager's time, got multiple interview rounds, all that coordination, even though a lot of that's automated these days and certain organizations, candidate testing, all the technology top of the funnel, all the recruitment marketing costs that gets wasted. So I mean, again, in its most benign form, it's a magnificent waste of time and resources. We were just talking about that friction standpoint. If I've got fake people in a queue or if I have a real person that's misrepresenting their abilities that I'm considering, then think about the people that I'm not working with and I should be working with. So I think that's patently, that's across the board that that's a true impact on an organization in cost and quality and time.

(22:40):

And then at the other end of the spectrum, it can represent a huge security and intellectual property risk for the company. I mean real financial impacts that are happening. I mean, again, reading that CrowdStrike report, I can't imagine people showing up virtually or otherwise in organizations getting access to all the tools and information as you become a new employee and get started there. And that goes unnoticed for long periods of time. I mean, that is a true risk to the organization. Something has to be done to stop that, to mitigate it and to make sure that it can be identified.

Shannon Offord (23:12):

I think we both obviously work for organizations that have employment websites and I know there are a lot of career sites out there as well. An issue, all of us I think are dealing with is the bot traffic that we see. We're always trying to try to figure out what percentage of the traffic is related to bots and what is real. And something we struggle with, and I'm sure that you guys do, and I'm sure employers are as well, how does this impact recruitment marketing and the budgets around that?

Dwaine Maltais (23:42):

Don't you miss when we were looking at traffic and just saying, well, what's that other category

(23:48):

Or what really is the career website in a source? What does that mean? How do I get more career website? How do I get more other? Those are the good old days. But yeah, I mean it is something that we are working every day Nexxt to combat. It's not new. But if we go all the way back to the top of our conversation with ai, with automation and the accessibility of it all, with the tools and techniques we've seen attempted exploits explode over the past few years just through our platforms in our view and in reality that fraudulent traffic, it drives up costs, it lowers quality and it wastes time again, at the very least. But it has meaningful impacts on recruitment, marketing budgets, particularly in pay for performance situations. From that standpoint, you look at conversion metrics, you look at engagement metrics and things that used to be able to give you clear signals of something working or something that could need improvement or something you might consider jettisoning for something else.

(24:50):

You can't trust that anymore from that standpoint. So I mean uncaught, it can lead to bad assumptions on where you invest your time and money in recruitment marketing. And then we've just been talking about the whole downstream effect. As you get further into the hiring process, how does that get magnified? The cost and the waste of time certainly gets magnified, but then the risk skyrockets. So anywhere there's a path to your career website anywhere is a target for bots. We're a target for bots, and we filter out that traffic, we identify the traffic, we put good friction in front of that traffic. We look at it and literally we've seen it explode over the past few years and we're not the only ones trying to combat it.

Shannon Offord (25:31):

No, you are not. If we deal with that every day as well. So I think people hear bots for the longest time, every time I would hear that, I automatically assume that it was all bad. It was always bad actors, whatever. I've since come to realize that it's not always something that, it's not always a bad thing. How do employers really differentiate between the good and bad in that regard? I mean, are there tools or there, if you were an employer, how would you differentiate the good and the bad bots? I guess

Dwaine Maltais (26:08):

It's not easy. You're right. The same tools that fraudsters are using can be similar or sometimes they can be the exact same tools that candidates use to help them find their jobs or better represent themselves on a resume or even to help them apply to jobs or prepare for interviews. And I think the bad news for now is that the solutions to determine the good from the bad either don't exist yet or are buried in the data that HR doesn't have access to or our training and skills that many recruiters and hiring managers may not have yet, that they certainly need to get that training. So I mean, the capabilities of the AI and the automation together have clearly outpaced the controls. And that's not just in hiring, that's everywhere. I mean, we hear it on TV all the time, social media and other things where different forms of this are prevalent and there's lots of companies working on solutions for it.

(27:06):

So I expect to see more tools come forward. I expect to see tracking and accountability mature. I expect to see better interoperability between let's say companies like Nexxt that are focused on sources and companies that are providing applicant tracking systems and companies that are providing downstream interview technology and onboarding and hiring all of those things to begin to work better together at a data-driven level to better share this information and track and account for this information. But that's not there today. The key there, I look at, you hear things like determining how many applications are being submitted by someone. If you see many, many, many applications by the same person, a lot of different things. Well, the reality is, and a lot of the applicant tracking systems or recruiter may not be I as a recruiter and user recruiter could be working on different jobs that we don't even see each other's jobs that we're working on.

(27:56):

So I don't know if John Smith, the candidate applied for 12 other jobs, even if they did. I see that they applied on Tuesday. I don't necessarily see that it was 3:00 AM on Tuesday and the elapsed time of the application was a minute and a half when my average is five or seven minutes. So there's all that data that's there that's buried but isn't necessarily available for companies when they need it to help them make these decisions. So right now, I think it's a very formative time where we've got to surface more of that information upfront. So it can be used in this analysis, but we have a ways to go. And then I'll go back to training for a while. You look at the training that started happening in organizations around phishing and spam and security awareness. We need those same types of training programs for recruiters and hiring managers that aren't just sitting and watching a video that you can turn on your little AI bot and make sure it looks like you're present for the whole video from that standpoint. But things that actually tests is this happening and in reality, and those are needs that I definitely see companies talking about. I see suppliers and vendors in our space talking about and beginning to roll out what can be solutions there. But I think that the reality is we're a little behind the curve in what we need to bring forward both in training and in technology to really be able to make a concerted effort to attack fraud. I dunno if you feel the same way or feel differently about that.

Shannon Offord (29:31):

I'm a hundred percent with you, and I think you talked about accessibility earlier, and there's several tools out there that allow a candidate, and they've been out there for a while, but I think they're getting better. But there's these obviously tools out there that allow job seekers to apply to jobs super quickly and tailor their resume to those jobs in a matter of minutes, and they can send out hundreds of resumes to these positions very quickly. I have a lot of mixed feelings on those tools. I think those tools can contribute to a lot of the fraud as well. But yeah, I'm on the same page with you. There definitely aren't enough. Well, the tools have not kept up with, and the fraud detection tools have not kept up with where we are with some of the tools related to AI. I mean, they're so behind. I think they will get there, but as they get there, obviously some of the other tools will get better. It seems like you're always kind of playing catch up, but I mean, training obviously is huge. What do you think about, I know a lot of companies don't do background checks, but I think given the environment we're in right now, before I would offer any employee or potential employee a position, I would definitely do some kind of advanced background check before I would

Dwaine Maltais (30:46):

Absolutely background checks. I mean, anything that can help you verify and validate the information that's in front of you, I think is part of the hiring process. I mean, they're there not, again. It can be good friction in that regard too, from the standpoint of you don't want to bring, forget about fraud. You don't want to bring someone that may not pass those types of checks into your organization. That's what it's there to protect from that standpoint is the background check the kind of last mile before you move in that direction. We'll see. I think there's other checks along the way that are being implemented that can be done along with identity verification and background checks. So I'm not sure if it solely lives there or if that begins to blend into other layers too. But absolutely, I mean, any verification that the information that you've been given is accurate about the person that you're considering should be fair game to validate and you should structure the way we interview. We should structure the way we have dialogues with each other that at least in some part of those dialogues that there are questions that are very clearly things that would need to be verified in that process. Again, I think it's critical finding a way to keep a collaborative and hiring process and find great talent without turning it into an interrogation. But sure, I think a background check and the innovations and some of the things that are happening in that space are definitely a key component in the layers.

Shannon Offord (32:20):

I think employers need to really lay out clear expectations through the interview process as well, especially as it relates to AI, what's allowed, what's not, what they expect, what they don't. I think that can also be a tool that's used to maybe reduce some of this.

Dwaine Maltais (32:38):

Absolutely. And if nothing else, a great teaching tool for the AI to get better at doing what it's doing badly.

Shannon Offord (32:43):

Well, there's that.

Dwaine Maltais (32:44):

It gives, it takes, but absolutely. I mean, having a clearly outlined process, forgetting about our fraud discussion, it helps the candidates experience. They know what they're in for, they know what they can prepare for. So I definitely think that's a benefit and can help really kind of set the expectations for what to expect.

Shannon Offord (33:05):

Well, I have very much enjoyed this conversation. I mean, I'm digging into this whole AI thing more and more every day. I have a lot of interest around this topic, so I literally could talk to you all day long. But I want to thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate your time. One thing we do on the DE Talk podcast is we have kind of a speed round or lightning round of questions that aren't necessarily related to this topic, but we just want to get to know you better. So I get to ask you a few questions and they're kind of rapid fire, so I'm going to throw 'em out pretty quick. So we'll get started with that. Would you rather watch a movie at home or in the theater?

Dwaine Maltais (33:51):

This is going to go against what I think most people would say, but I'm an at-home movie watcher.

Shannon Offord (33:55):

My wife and I just had this conversation the other day and she wants to watch 'em at home too.

Dwaine Maltais (34:00):

Oh, so you're a theater guy.

Shannon Offord (34:02):

I loved going to the theater. I was really addicted to the popcorn in all transparency, but I actually bought a movie size theater popcorn machine at my house. That's no longer the issue. But I do think there's something to be said about actually going there and watching on the big screen.

Dwaine Maltais (34:19):

Well, I think I'm an introvert and I think you're more of an extrovert, so maybe there's some patterns there. I like the popcorn buckets. I think those are really cool. I can go get one of those and then I can go back home. I don't have to sit in that theater crunched up behind somebody for two or three hours.

Shannon Offord (34:36):

I've actually got a stack of them, probably like 80 of 'em at home. What is your favorite fast food restaurant?

Dwaine Maltais (34:43):

Fast food. Even though I'm on the east coast, it's going to be In-N-Out.

Shannon Offord (34:46):

You know what, that is one of the most common answers, but I'm with it though. I'm a hundred percent there with you.

Dwaine Maltais (34:51):

Animal style, all day long,

Shannon Offord (34:53):

Warm weather or cold weather,

Dwaine Maltais (34:54):

Warm weather. I run from the snow. I run from the cold.

Shannon Offord (34:58):

You're back east, so that may not be a good thing.

Dwaine Maltais (35:00):

But I'm down in Wilmington, North Carolina. So other than the hurricanes we're generally temperate. Chilly today though. But outside of that, no snow.

Shannon Offord (35:09):

I'm actually stared out my office window right now and it's coming down fast.

Dwaine Maltais (35:14):

Wait, you travel so much. What about you? Cold or warm?

Shannon Offord (35:17):

Warm for sure. Warm for sure. Not really a cold weather person. Literally every winter. I say it's going to be my last winter here, and yet here I am still here.

Dwaine Maltais (35:26):

I said that when I was in Connecticut and I went just outside of Houston and then wanted to get back over to the east coast and the beach. So I like you, I said it and I ended up doing it.

Shannon Offord (35:36):

Favorite vacation spot.

Dwaine Maltais (35:38):

And this is going to be super boring. It's home. I love spending time at home. We're near the beach so we can get to the beach, so that's always accessible for us. But just quiet time on the water, near the water, just places where you can just be, still get a little away from technology. That's my favorite area. And a lot of it isn't too far from home, so that's why I say home.

Shannon Offord (36:01):

Alright. If you weren't in online recruitment, what else would you be doing?

Dwaine Maltais (36:06):

I don't know. That's the sad thing. I've been doing this for so long, since the early nineties. I don't know, probably something completely woodworking. Just something with my hands, something not in front of a computer, something that doesn't make me hop on planes a lot. I would try, I think I would probably go in an opposite direction just to see what that's like.

Shannon Offord (36:29):

Best career advice you've ever received.

Dwaine Maltais (36:32):

Best career advice I've ever received. So I guess pretty early on in my career before I really started in the recruiting side of space, it really is just kind of a golden rule. Just treat others as you'd like to be treated from that standpoint. And that's stuck with me over the years as I've worked with people to work for me, people I've worked for. So I think it's a bit of a golden rule, but it holds up.

Shannon Offord (36:59):

That's a good one. That's a good one. If people want to learn more about Nexxt or more about this topic, what is the best way to get ahold of you?

Dwaine Maltais (37:07):

So if it's about next, you can always hit our website up at nexxt.com. That's the N-E-X-X-T so two Xs, nexxt.com. And I love this topic. I love to talk about, I geek out on anything recruiting, recruiting technology. So would love to continue conversations on this topic or others and can hit me up on LinkedIn. My profile and information is also up on our website, so would love to continue the conversation with anyone that's interested. It's fascinating to watch the evolution of these technologies. You get so excited about what they can do, and then you get a bit of a spoiler with the fraud side of it. But I am an optimist. I think there is a way through this where we're going to see the benefits outweigh the risks. We just have to stay vigilant on that side of it, but that's how we can connect.

Shannon Offord (37:54):

Awesome. Well, Duane, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dwaine Maltais (37:58):

And Shannon, it was great to see you. Always excited to work with DirectEmployers on any topic around the future of work, so really appreciate the opportunity to get together.

DirectEmployers Association (38:07):

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