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The Esoteric Entrepreneur
A place for soul-work seekers, project people and generally chaotic creatives to explore non-traditional success systems. Hosted by Jaz Borri, listen in and get out side the box.
The Esoteric Entrepreneur
179. NEURODIVERGENCE: How To Be A Powerhouse Founder With A Squiggly Brain with Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz
Imagine if you could navigate the complexities of a squiggly brain, juggle motherhood, and embrace the universe's energy all while running a successful business. Sounds pretty magical, right? Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz, the head witch at Holisticism, shows us just how possible it is in today's enlightening episode. Listen in as we:
- Dive into fascinating discussions about neurodivergent brains and careers
- Focus on the unique challenges and rewards that come with ADHD.
- Teach your how to navigate self-destruction and creation, and the search for answers in spirituality.
- Discuss the challenges of trusting our brains and impulses amidst difficulties like object permanence and follow-through.
- Highlight the nuances of spiritual entrepreneurship and its potential to challenge prevailing norms of patriarchy and capitalism.
- Zone in on the importance of self-care, both physically and mentally, for a sustainable success as a neurospicy person
- Unravel the reality of decision-making in a world that values money, power, and success.
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I'd like to begin today by acknowledging the traditional owners of this land on which this podcast is being recorded today, the dark and young people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. It's an esoteric entrepreneur thing. Hi Hotties, welcome back to the esoteric entrepreneur podcast. This one goes out to all my neuro spicy founders, entrepreneurs, business owners, creatives. I personally have not been diagnosed with any kind of neurodiversity. However, I'm sure I've got something going on. Productivity, creativity and consistency is something that I've always struggled to find a rhythm with, and I wanted to do an episode on this for you guys for a while, but I knew it had to be with the right person. I wanted something that would challenge your belief systems but was also informed enough to serve with empathy. And then my beautiful podcast babe, chelsea. We all love her. No, chelsea, she's been on the podcast before. She introduced me to Michelle from Holisticism and all my prayers were answered. She is so inspiring to me, she is so fucking cool. I want to be her and I am not going to keep that secret. But Michelle Pelazon Lipsitz is the head witch in charge at Holisticism, if you didn't already know, and she's an expert in navigating squiggly brains and careers. She helps intuitive creatives and entrepreneurs bring their dream projects into reality using systems and spells. So if you are somebody who is wanting some out of the box solutions because you are an out of the box individual and you know that your brain is so unique or maybe you're just like a witchy witch like me and you like witchy things then this episode is going to be the perfect episode for you.
Speaker 1:This conversation was incredibly insightful for me. I opened up the conversation talking a little bit about motherhood, whilst we didn't stay on this topic for very long. I did just want to chat to Michelle about the balance between being a mum, being somebody who is squiggly brained, and if you don't know what that means, don't worry, I'm going to ask her exactly what that means. But I just asked her. I was like, how do you handle all of this? And she had just come back from maternity leave. So if that is something that you're interested in, that's a conversation we talk about first up, and I'd love to know if you like hearing stories like this, because, as somebody who wants to become a mum in the next year or so, I'm starting to become very curious about how we do this whole mum business thing, and it's me and I want to come at it a little bit of a different way, so do let me know if you want to hear more about that.
Speaker 1:But by listening to today's episode, you're gonna get a deeper insight and understanding on so many things. Obviously, michelle's a witch, a self-proclaimed witch so we are going to talk about all things mystical. We delve into, obviously, the world of astrology and we talk about, like, our unique perspectives, but we also explore the concept of neurodivergence, of course, specifically ADHD and how understanding it can empower you on your entrepreneurial journey. Michelle really opened up about her own diagnosis and how it's really shaped her life and her work. So this conversation will challenge you to rethink everything that you know about neurological differences, but in a really empowering way.
Speaker 1:We don't just talk about personal experiences, though. We really do a deep dive into the nuance of spiritual entrepreneurship and discuss how it can challenge the prevailing norms of patriarchy and capitalism. You guys know that's my favorite conversation topic, and you'll also learn what it means to trust yourself and embrace creativity in this context. And lastly, we really tackle a lot of the complexities around decision-making in a world that really prizes money and power and success, and we do it through this lens of what it means to make tough decisions and truly grow. We talk about how to navigate self-destruction when you're creating and how to search for the answers in spirituality. We talk about the challenges of trusting your brain and your impulses amongst difficulties, objection, permanence and follow-through.
Speaker 1:This episode is just a really great one if you are just looking to be expanded around what your neuro-spicy brain is capable of and, I guess, really pose the question to yourself whether you're the problem or if it's the world, whether you've been told that this is how you should be successful and that just doesn't work for your brain because your brain is different. I think this is such an important conversation because I know that so many neurodiverse entrepreneurs fail or quit because they feel like they're just simply not cut out for it, when an actual fact, your brain was built for this. So if you enjoy this episode, be sure to let me know. You can obviously share it on your stories, tag myself, tag Michelle, and you can always kill two birds with one stone by leaving a review and a rating. Screenshot it, dm it to me and that will enter you to win our monthly listener giveaway, which, of course, is a free astrology reading with me. Remember, I don't do these anymore and this is the only way you can get in the room and talk astrology shop with me, so why not? Okay, love you guys.
Speaker 1:Enjoy this episode on neurodivergency with me and the head witch in charge at helicicism, michelle Pelazon Lipsitz. Michelle, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited for this conversation. How are you today?
Speaker 2:I am honestly, it's been a sleigh of a day. It's been awesome. It's been like my ideal work day. My days are changing a lot because I had a baby seven months ago so I went on maternity leave and then I came back and now my husband and I split childcare, so my work days look very different than they did, especially when I started helicicism. But even before the baby, and Thursdays are like my deep work day where all I get to do is make content, think about things, realize things, take my time doing automatic writing and all my card pulling and all that good stuff. And it just feels like very dreamy when I look back on days like this.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh, this is what I wanted when I started this seven years ago. It's crazy.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, I love that because, honestly, it's so funny that you bring up the stepping into having like into motherhood, right, having a baby and all these things. A big reason why I'm really inspired by you is because of the transition that you've made. I think the way that you run your business and the way that you've paused and the way that you've transitioned I just think you've done it with grace. I'm really inspired by it as somebody who's absolutely scared, shitless to have a baby, but now randomly really wants one, which is like weird for me, like I was like whatever about them and now I'm like I can't look at a baby without crying. I just I'm inspired by that transition and I just wanted to let you know that because I think so many women are afraid of that. So many women are like what does that look like? How does that work? I was afraid of that, it feels really exciting to me.
Speaker 2:Oh good, I'm so glad and thank you for saying that. I'm like one of my big fears around having a baby was not being relatable in a way, or like changing so much that the people who I work for which is like my community wouldn't recognize me anymore and we wouldn't be aligned on the same values and want the same things. And that was really scary, because you don't really know what's gonna happen and I feel more like myself than I ever have before, which is awesome. I had a really great experience and I've had a lot of support around me, like I have a wonderful partner and I have an amazing team that helped with the transition. So I know not everyone is like lucky enough to get that, but it's been awesome, and I mean just backing off of that idea of being afraid of motherhood and also wanting it at the same time. That was a big factor in me wanting to run my own business.
Speaker 2:I was forecasting into the future and seeing my bosses and my bosses' bosses and I was like I don't really want to do what you're sure, like I don't want your life, so why am I like aspiring to move forward on this stairway or this pathway. I want to have freedom in everything that I do and at least have the freedom to choose, or feel like I have the freedom to choose. In a lot of ways, this, it feels like the culmination of my work for the last couple of years has led me to this point, and that is awesome. And it's still sometimes really hard where I'm like, oh, my god, I gotta get everything done. Then I need to get done. But yeah, it's great. Sorry, I just word saladed on you.
Speaker 1:No, I needed that. I needed that and I know that a lot of other entrepreneurs who are listening and the listeners will need that too. It's something that I've started to talk a little bit more freely about on the podcast and just even on my Instagram. I've been really open about my biggest fear, literally, was becoming a mother without choosing to be a mother, like my biggest fear was like falling pregnant without it being like intentional.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:My whole life having to change, not at my own will. I've got a Sagittarius North Node, so I was just gonna ask.
Speaker 2:I've got to know like what are you trying to get to that we're gonna get to that.
Speaker 1:That really scared the shit out of me and I've actually worked really hard with hypnotherapists to just look at this stuff and look it to the to the lineage of things and that's what I love about astrology too, is it can actually show you why these things are happening to you, and I can see it through my stellium in the seventh and I can see it in my satin in my fourth house in Pisces, like I can see it all total.
Speaker 1:But I think, regardless of your placements, I also think that this is something that we feel just purely from a human experience living in this society. And, yeah, I think it's not easy to, even in your not showing up, like even in your not posting, being like, yeah, I'm with my baby or I'm with my whatever, I'm with my team, yeah, I think that you've created a brand that you can feel, that you can feel that you're not gone, you can feel that you're there still, but you're like doing what you need to do and that feels really inspiring to just be in that energetic exchange with you, even when you're not there.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, I don't share my baby on Instagram. Yeah, his face much. Yeah, his grandma doesn't like that. My mom is. He's so cute, you should be sharing them everywhere. And so, like it's a good. I like it because it's a good challenge for me of what am I going to share with my people. Like, I want to share my life and what I'm going through, especially on, like, my personal account, and it's asked me to share more of the things that I've always been interested in but, like, maybe haven't brought to the rest of you. Like my cancer rising is coming forward. She is present, she is baking cakes and it's fun. It's like fun to have people see all these different dynamics at play and at work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it. I love it. I want to chat about you and your business. I want to start with two questions One, please let the audience know your Big Three and any other exciting placements that you have. And also a question that I ask everybody that comes onto the podcast is what had to happen in order for you to be where you are today.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, where do I start Okay, yeah, so my big, my important stuff is the most important things about me. Obviously, I'm a Pisces Sun cancer, rising Scorpio moon. I have a lot of water in my chart. I have a lot of Pisces energy in my chart which people are always like, really Because you're a bitch Like why, like a fiery, aggressive person, sometimes Like you're not. You don't seem, I don't know, watery, maybe a little more Scorpio than Pisces, but I also have a Pisces North node and I have an Aries mid-heaven.
Speaker 2:So I got a lot happening there. I have a Mercury in Aquarius and I think that explains a lot about how I do what I do and why I do what I do. But I think that the all the water says a lot to speaks a lot to why I am the way that I am now, and I've always been into spiritual shit. I've always been into being psychic, psychics and tarot cards and talking to angels and fairies and like wanting to understand astrology, reading horoscopes. I read the horoscopes section of the newspaper every day from like age probably 11 until I went to college, and then when I went to college, I really dug into astrology and it's always just been a part of what I genuinely liked and I think that it was something that I hid away a little bit because it made me maybe look flaky or silly or naive and I think I'm a pretty intelligent person and I wanted to be perceived as intelligent and thoughtful and I felt like people know that I'm reading astrology books late at night, but Bill really judged me for it. That's how I fell into holisticism in a way, because I had this sort of secret spiritual life and I was working at this tech company and all of the people who also had secret spiritual lives flocked together. We were, we all found each other and I realized there is a lot of people who felt the same way, who wanted to marry that intuitive side and intuitive nature of themselves and the intellectual and not just be one thing and that's. That was the beginning of holisticism.
Speaker 2:But a lot had to happen to get here.
Speaker 2:I think my biggest thing I've talked about it a bit was is just that I have epilepsy, so I started having seizures when I was 17. And that really put me on the trajectory trajectory, I would say, to dive into spirituality, the unknown energy and like things that cannot be explained, because my seizures could not be explained, I almost didn't even have the language to describe them what happened to me and I know now, because of actually some things that have happened since I had my baby, some developments that was like those are mediumship abilities coming through and being not a big enough container at that time in my life, hearing spirits, not being big enough to hold all of it, like short circuiting, and the early part of my twenties was really spent trying to like strengthen that container and even find the edges of it. What am I capable of what is my capacity, how do I do this, what's real and what's not, and which strategies should I employ to become the fullest, deepest version of myself, both like spiritual strategies and somatic strategies and like philosophical or physical strategies?
Speaker 1:So yeah, I will say you can fucking hear the Pisces in your chart, like you can just hear that. But the one thing I was really interested to unpick with you because when I first engaged with your brand again, it's your online persona I was so interested to see where's Aquarius. So the fact that you said that you had Mercury in Aquarius, that just makes so much sense to me and also, I think, really speaks to the power of aligning the way that you do business with your own energy. Right, because the way that you're communicating even in the copy, in the marketing, obviously visual branding as well like that's a communication style. It's so Aquarius, it hurts, like it actually hurts. It's so Aquarius.
Speaker 1:For anyone who doesn't know what Aquarius is, it's incredibly individualistic, it likes to draw outside the lines, it likes to do things differently and split off and shift and change and it also doesn't feel the need to over explain itself.
Speaker 1:And that is something that I really see in your brand and in your business and just in the way that you guys operate.
Speaker 1:I love this way of showing up on social media because it really empowers the audience and the client and the receiver, the follower, to really be in charge and I think that attracts a certain type of client and I won't go off on my geeky nerdy like sales psychology moment here, but what I do think that, coming back to spirituality, I'd love to chat a little bit about this idea of squiggly brain. How can we be spiritual without autonomy? Because it basically says, hey, your brain works a specific way, but I know it also has a lot to do with neurodivergence and things like that. You guys speak a lot about that. So for anybody who's never heard about squiggly brain I know it's trademarked, we love that Could you explain what that is and how you guys help and the work that you do around that? Because you're not just doing spiritual stuff in a cool way, you're doing it with this extra layer and it's just fucking dope. Thanks, yeah.
Speaker 2:And when you were talking about personal sovereignty, my ears started ringing like crazy. So there's definitely something there. Let's put a pin in that, because I feel like you probably have a really good story about autonomy or something like.
Speaker 2:There's more to dig in there because like it was going off and the little psychic signals. But yeah, I so, like I said, I have epilepsy. So technically, like I'm neurodivergent because my brain just works differently than someone who doesn't have seizures. And when I got an MRI when I was first diagnosed, they can see like ADHD in your brain or ADD in your brain, and I remember my neurologist saying, oh, you have, you have an ADHD brain, and my mom was like that's impossible. She had a 4.8 GPA in high school. She's, she's smart, she didn't have ADHD and it just was something that was never addressed.
Speaker 2:And very recently I've embraced who I am, especially running my own business, especially running my own business, and I just grabbed myself on the podcast as, like, I'm not a linear thinker, I'm a squiggly, my brain is squiggly, like it's not, it doesn't think in straight lines. I can attribute that to my Piscian nature and my watery nature and also I'm just a. I'm a more creative thinker. I went to art school I I worked in tech. I've never followed like a corporate ladder necessarily, so I don't think in the ways that other people do, maybe because I'm not. I didn't have the same conditioning that they did and like, unknowingly or surprisingly, people really latched on to that idea. Oh yeah, I don't have a straight thinking brain, I have a squiggly brain, like it goes in loop to loop sometimes and sometimes it gets stuck and sometimes it goes around the problem and I find a different solution. And they've really a lot of people are really latched on to it because I think there's a lot we don't understand about neurodivergence and I have a theory right now about so many women who, especially, are very intuitive, being diagnosed with ADHD. I think that it is a catch all term that we're getting diagnosed with and we're going to find in the next 20 years or so that there are like very specific, that these things like ADHD is actually like very specific different types of synesthesia, different ways of experiencing, and I really think that's going to be connected to what we also might call Claire audience or Claire sentience, the ways that we feel things intuitively. I do think that they're connected. I think that also, people who have ADHD or who are neurodivergent or learning that they're neurodivergent later in life are like super achievers and also have started their own businesses because they realized that they could not possibly work in an office for somebody else from nine to five, doing things the way that other people do them, because they'd rather poke their own eyes out than do that. Because everyone else's way is like stupid and slow and your way is faster and you can get things done before noon, so why can't I go home? This doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:I had this sort of fake diagnosis earlier in my twenties and my dad called me a couple of years ago and he was like I have been. I got to talk to you. I've been having a really hard time with my memory. I thought he was. He rattled off a bunch of things that he was having issues. I can't finish reading a book and I don't know what's. I didn't know what's wrong with me. I thought he was going to tell me I got early on to Alzheimer's or something and he said I have ADHD. I was diagnosed. So he was like 65 when he got diagnosed and the week before I had been diagnosed by my psychiatrist as having ADHD and neurodivergence. It runs in families. Who knows if it's genetic or if it's like learned behavior.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There are lots of people that have different perspectives on that, which we don't have enough time to get into, but I just saw the pattern so clearly around me of so many of our clients. So many of our students are just like me in the way that we want to approach our work with like diligence and excellence and integrity, but also having these elements of our personality that don't align with that, like starting things but not finishing them, or creating a plan but not falling through with it. Or getting bogged down in like hyper detailed systems and making them and being able to dream them up but not actually being able to keep them up over time, being really burnt out and getting to burn out very quickly, jumping from idea to idea, needing constant novelty, setting themselves up for burnout by working up to a deadline or creating deadlines for themselves, creating too much work for themselves consistently, over and over again, even though it had a deleterious effect on their lives, and I just really felt, okay, we got to talk about it.
Speaker 2:And not a lot of online education, not a lot of entrepreneurial education, not a lot of spiritual education, like focuses or centers that experience, or is even honestly like halfway made, or acknowledges that, hey, maybe asynchronous learning online is really hard for people with ADHD. So, like, how can we build a system or a practice or a school or a course that, like, supports these types of people and their brains and sets them up for success, rather than, like, just taking their money and being like Deuces? See you later figure it out. Sorry, so that's how our notion for magical bodies universe ended up getting created and made. We use this system called notion as like a practical explanation of theories and concepts that help people who are neurodivergent or who identify as having squiggly brains understand their themselves so that they can do what they want to do. And I do think that, like spirituality, intuition, all of that ties into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're totally right, and this is why your ears were ringing, because I just was like, as you're trying to, because, yeah, a big part of the ethos that I work under is that everyone can actually be successful. That's just. Your parts of success is unique. All the strategies work. It's just are they going to work for you? The only things that are going to work for you is that you're going to be, cultivate and garner success for you in your business and your life and your spirituality and your relationship are things that are actually. You need to be consistent in order to be success. That's a law of success. You can't be inconsistent and expect success.
Speaker 1:So, if you can't sustain a practice, a modality, if you can't actually fall in love with the process, as they say, and find the thing that really works for you and go all in on it, what you're doing is you're cutting yourself short and you're not going to achieve the things that you want to achieve, and even if you do, it's going to take way fucking longer. So why does this happen? It happens because we have this preconceived notion and idea, firstly, that there is one way of doing things. But the reason we have that idea is because you're right the structures are not shown or are not set up for individuality in a learning process, especially in spirituality in entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1:There's one way to be an entrepreneur. This is what the esoteric entrepreneur is. It's deciding to do business your own way, because your soul came here for a specific mission and you have innate gifts and talents that nobody else has, and there's a place in this world that you're here to find to fill a gap, create a solution, make an impact, change the world. I believe that to my fucking core, so I think you're totally right. You're totally right.
Speaker 1:There's nothing in any sort of learning process, in the micro of what we do, of how we run a business, of how we spiritual, how we do any of those things that actually calls us forth to true individuality, authenticity, integrity, but also just here's how you do it. And I think it ends up being this vicious cycle which I wonder if you agree with, where it's like the system informs the person and then the person says I still need the hell. Tell me how to do this one thing the right way. Let me be right, and so the system is okay, let me show you how to do it the right way, and it just ends up being this vicious cycle. Do you agree with that one?
Speaker 2:And if so, like how do we break that? I think you're spot on. The annoying thing is that there's not one answer and we are looking for one answer. Right, we're like looking for one God. We're looking for one rule, we're looking for the one person who is going to tell us what our spiritual gift is. We're looking for the one key to turn in the lock. And the thing is, one door opens the next. It's not one door in your life that you're looking to open, one door opens the next. It's a series of doors.
Speaker 2:That's the mission of the alchemist, right, like of a spiritual person is to dissolve and come back together again to destroy and create. And we can't do that process or complete that process with the intention of creating gold. That's just like a happy coincidence, that's a happy byproduct of the experience of alchemy and spirituality. So we can't walk through the doors hoping to get to the last one, or like hoping to get to heaven, or hoping to get to the final boss level or whatever, or graduation, or whatever you think is at the end.
Speaker 2:That's the journey as the destination, baby, but that's what it is, and I think I'm so guilty of it too, right? Oh, maybe this will be like the one type of makeup that will be like my be all end all. Maybe this will be the haircut that like I suddenly turn into a supermodel because I just have the right bangs. Maybe this teacher will be the teacher who really makes me feel 100% like I trust them and that I don't have to think. I can just believe everything that they say. I can turn my brain off and I think that like misses the point of why we're here.
Speaker 1:I don't want to turn our brains off. We don't want to do that, babes. We don't want to join a cult.
Speaker 2:We just don't.
Speaker 2:It sounds really enticing, because this is not easy work. It's not easy, like it's fun and it's actually simple. Just stay on your path, bro, but it's still hard. So there are so many distractions that are really fun and sexy and like enjoyable, and also distractions that are like and we got wrenching, soul shattering, and we signed up for a lot of those things, like we signed up to be people and to have a human experience, I think, or at least I did and and to feel all these things, to feel all the depths, to experience all of it.
Speaker 2:So, anyways, not to get like so as a jerk, but I think that's why, especially in entrepreneurship, we are constantly looking for that one thing that's going to be, that's going to get us where we want to go, and also we, just as humans, are always going to move the goalpost and we will set an intention or a goal. I want this to happen, I want this to be who I am. I want to make this amount of money. Blah, blah, blah. We make it there Like we hit that goal or whatever. Sometimes we do it on accident, sometimes we do it without even noticing, because we continue to push the goal further and further away. It's always going to be out of reach again when one door opens the next. So if we can just use that as our superpower and just acknowledge that, oh, I'm always going to be moving the finish line Great, I wonder where it's going to end up. Cool, like I think that that will, that that gives us a little bit more breathing room.
Speaker 2:And I think, for people who have squiggly brains, there are some like very obvious things that we need in order to to succeed, and the first thing is we need to be able to trust our own brains and our way of thinking, because if you are someone who is a nonlinear thinker, there's a really good chance that you have a million ideas, like you have come up with at least 15 billion dollar business ideas, right, and you are probably really good at a lot of things too, and there's probably books. You want to write podcasts, you want to create and other businesses. You want to start and trips. You want to go on and I don't know clothes. You want to sew so many things that you want to do.
Speaker 2:And over time, over your life, you have learned that you can't trust these impulses, these ideas, these like creative little feathers that land on your head or that come down from source or spirit, because they slip through your fingers, because people who have squiggly brains or ADHD or whatever you want to call it. We don't have really good object permanence and we also tended not to have very good follow through. So we'll have an idea, we'll think I can trust my future self to remember this because I'm so excited about it right now and then we wake up the next morning and we have no idea what that exciting life changing business that we wanted to start was even about.
Speaker 2:And to move forward in any aspect of your life, you have to trust yourself. Because once you trust yourself that you can execute on the ideas that do come through. Number one, they'll come through. So if you're feeling blocked, that might be why you're never blocked, but sometimes it's just trust. And number two, when you trust yourself to move forward, like to hold your ideas, you're reinforcing that you have the capabilities like that, you're strong enough to do it, that you're the right person to do it, and you're saying yes. And the more I think we say yes to the muse or universe or God or whatever the big bagel in the sky, the more inspiration we get like, the more comes down Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It totally makes sense as someone who has always been a creative. I spent a decade of my life as a musician. I'm literally sitting right now in my parents house in a literal. If I could show you what's around me, I'll show you after the recording. I'm surrounded by amps and guitars and all of these things, and so I grew up really creative. I was writing songs probably since I was like a child. They got good around 15.
Speaker 1:They got decent around 15. So I did that for 10 years until I was 25. That was like my main gig and I think, when we think about creativity, you're totally right. If we don't trust our creative process, which fucking what is creativity? Creativity is the most spiritual experience. You're making Absolutely, absolutely Something out of absolutely nothing. What to create literally means to create something out of nothing.
Speaker 1:This podcast used to be called Abracadabra, which is as I speak. So I create this idea that you are the life force, but also that you are the conduit and you are the vehicle for something bigger, and that is what we're talking about when we're talking about co-creation. But if you're working together with somebody, right, like, why work with Michelle versus my work with my assistant versus my work with my brother, when we're creating music or whatever it may be, is going to look different because of the connection of those wires. We're all very different and I think, if we can all just remember that, my relationship with the universe and your relationship with the universe is going to look different because of the way that your brain works, as well as because of your experience and the way that you perceive and all of these things. But I think when we bring it back to my brain's, just squiggly, I just don't work in the same way.
Speaker 1:It means that you have some really cool shit to leverage that nobody else is leveraging and you get to go on that pilgrimage yourself through creativity and allow that. It's like how can we begin to allow that to be the exciting journey? Not all the things I'm going to achieve or all the satisfaction or all the ease quote unquote that I'm going to feel when I can just figure out the best way to manage my time or the best way to have a morning routine or the best way to pray. It's not about being the best all the time. It's not about optimizing all the time. I'm the first person to say optimize your shit. That's why I love astrology. But there's also like a beautiful creative journey that you get to go on to figure that out. I think about like from a hypnotherapy perspective. I'm a trained hypnotherapist because I'm a Gemini and I can do 100 things. But it's not about erasing a thought. Reprogramming is not about deleting.
Speaker 2:It's about redirecting the code. You're actually adding code in to inform what's already there and maybe change the function of what's already there. You're not like obliterating parts of you Same thing with shadow work that people don't really get. People are like oh, I want to get rid of my ego. No, you, actually, I don't think you do. Maybe you do, but I don't want to do that You're so I had to write it down because you're so right.
Speaker 2:Like the thing about learning to trust yourself is also learning that there's no one way that's going to be the way. Like you can't just copy some copy paste someone else's way of doing things and, especially if you have a nonlinear brain, again, you don't work in straight lines and right angles, so you're not going to follow the instructions, that straight lines and right angles. That is so frustrating, I think, for a lot of people who are really intuitive and really creative, because also, our sort of squiggle is constantly changing, so our tactics and our strategies need to change too, and that can make consistency really hard and the root of it all really is just knowing yourself right. Like the more you know yourself, the more you can catch like ooh, okay, what I need in this moment. Let me look at my bag of tricks. What can I apply?
Speaker 2:What framework with strategy? What lessons, blah, blah, blah. What tools to help me with what I'm going through right now? Because I know myself so deeply and I really understand where that's bubbling up from versus I'm just applying. It's like math, when you learn math and you just are regurgitating or copying, like you don't really understand the function, but you just know how the thing works, how to do it. You want to understand what the math means, like how the numbers work, so that you don't have to memorize.
Speaker 2:I don't know the formulas, you just you get them. You'll never be without a map when you know yourself. Yes.
Speaker 1:Oh, you'll never be without a map when you know yourself 100%. Oh my God, that's just, I'm gonna get a tattooed on me. Okay, so I want to bring it back to you. Can you tell us a little bit about how you do this for yourself? Like, how does this look for you in the running of your business? And I know that you go by headwitch in charge, which I'm like why didn't I think of that? But the spirituality and the mysticism and it makes so much sense, like how it's so integrated, free you obviously from an outside perspective, but I'd also love to just hear and I think it would be really helpful for the audience as well because I think they're like okay, I get it, I'm on board, give me some options here, like where can I start? And I think maybe sharing your story might be a really powerful jumping off point. I'd love to know as well if you've seen any tangible impacts. What's making these shifts and changes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. And the thing about like spell work, or like proper spell work, or even like passive spell work, like the thing, the intentions that we set. You're like, okay, how much of this came from the spell, how much of it came from me, what is the difference? I also would argue that doing spell work is just getting really clear on what your intentions are. It's like witchy goal setting by less intense and more fun and usually involves more fire. Like there are probably a ton of people maybe who are skeptical or who are more analytical. Or, of course, when you get really clear on the number that you want to make for your launch, you're going to come up with more ideas for how to get there. So if you have to write a spell for it, you have to sit down with that idea. You can't multitask and do magic, as they say, so you have to like to put your undivided attention and intention into that spell that you cast. You have to pick the materials Like how does he want it? How do you want it to feel? Do you want it to be a candle spell? Because you want it to burn like high and tight? Okay, great, what are you going to do once you get that money, it's going to be a lot, it's going to be intense. Are you going to be able to handle it? Oh, maybe I need to do some shadow work to be able to hold that, to make sure my container is wide enough so that I don't freak out once I make that whatever $100,000 from this launch. So that's like my train of thought when I'm doing anything. What am I trying to do here? What am I? What's the point? What's the why? What am I doing? What can I use? What makes the most sense? What am I feeling called to?
Speaker 2:When we were like very early pandemic, I was doing a lot more spell work, like a lot of deliberate candle spells, a lot of yeah burying intentions, a lot of moon work, and I that felt so right because I was like in my home and just like creating this little bubble of protection and it worked really well. I had this crazy money spell going that the first day that I made that I had the $100,000 day and I'd been writing that spell for like probably nine days in a row and I just was like, wow, it really worked. How that's so crazy, but it totally worked and I think that's like an example that I think is probably sexy to people. But the other stuff is way less sexy. It's more. Okay, let me.
Speaker 2:I've got a bunch of cards here, I'm going to pull a bunch of cards because I'm about to write a series of curriculum for the North Node, which is our members community. So I'm writing them like 31 days of curriculum. I'm pulling cards to inform me of what are they going to need. During that time and again, someone who's skeptical or analytical might be, like your unconscious is going to create connotations and ideas. That's why those cards feel very on the nose. It's going to maybe illuminate something that your consciousness didn't necessarily have adroit access to or some point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I'm like cool, if that's what's going on, that's awesome. I don't need some like spirit or entity to be like give. Handing me information Like my unconscious is very cool too. But others might say, wow, spirit definitely gave this information to us and is giving us this sign or these cards, as they're if you believe in animism. They have their own soul and decisions and entity. They're trying to give me advice.
Speaker 2:I use all of these tools like the way I would use chat GPT. It's not the thing that I rely a hundred percent on, but it's something that contributes to how I show up and how I do my work, and sometimes I take it way more seriously and others I take it with a grain of salt, and sometimes I forget to do it all together and that's okay. But I think for me, like the most interesting thing is is trying on different meaning, making systems to solve a problem or to get to the truth of what's in front of me. You know how, like in movies, when there's like a ghost or like a monster or something that's invisible, and then you put on like a special pair of glasses and you can see it. Or there's X-ray vision and then there's infrared vision, you have different elements of what's in front of you. I feel like that's what meaning making systems are like.
Speaker 2:Astrology and human design are two meaning making systems right and they don't cancel each other out. It's not an either or zero, some game. I'm putting on my astrology glasses to make meaning of this thing that's in front of me, and then I can put on my human design glasses and I just get a little bit more information. It sort of colors or gives me a bigger, a broader sketch of what I'm looking at. And that's, I think, all why spirituality is so cool, because all these things can coexist and there's not like one right way to do it. You can take and leave what you want. Yeah, to help you get to whatever that answer is that you're seeking, or that action that you're trying to get to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love this idea of leveraging. What we're really talking about is leveraging spirituality, leveraging your individuality, leveraging your sole purpose, and that can look like whatever turns you on, like whatever gets you going, like whatever it is for you. I think it's really about self-connection. It's about how can I hold a mirror up to myself so I know what's right for me, regardless of whether that's like the right way to do things or the wrong way to do things or whatever.
Speaker 1:I honestly feel like as entrepreneurs and I say this all the time like we're here to change the world, like I actually mean like your job as an entrepreneur is to have an original thought, see a gap in the marketplace and feel it creatively, feel it in a way that it's never been filled before. And so when we're thinking about really stepping into doing, processing and creating and fulfilling our own, we just cannot look to anything else other than something spiritual, at least a little bit. But I always say to my clients what are you delegating to the universe? Because there's only so much that you can do. The energy that spins the world and grows the tree and makes sure that the sun comes up is also at play.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it doesn't want to be known. Energy does not want to be codified and understood to the letter. It's just fucking energy dude. You just have to accept it. And I know that you want to get how it works. You want to hack it, you want that special manifestation formula that if you do it x, y, z way it's going to work out. And that's just not how energy works. It just isn't and we don't have to be okay with that mystery.
Speaker 2:Oh we do have to be okay with the mystery. We have to be really frustrating.
Speaker 1:No, it is, and I think that, if anything, it's like there is no universal hack. There's going to be a hack that's really specific to you. There's going to be your hack.
Speaker 1:So go on that journey. Yes, play with spells and play with tarot and play with astrology and play with Jean Keys and play with, I don't know, sex magic whatever the fuck you want to play with. I have a good time whilst you're doing it because, like, entrepreneurship is not an easy thing to do. Anyone who chooses this. Like it's something that you feel and you mentioned this earlier. It's something that you feel called to. It's something that, if you didn't do, you would seriously consider living on the street to still do it, and you have to. If you are like stopping yourself from making yourself, if you're in a bad situation, it's like you're making yourself homeless. You got to stop yourself and swallow your pride because you'd actually rather do that. I know that might sound like really dramatic, but I feel that it's not that.
Speaker 2:No, it's not, and I have plenty of people that I work with who I'm like. I mean, we can't work together right now because you have to like you're willing to take out debt in order to try and move forward. You just have to get your feet underneath you. I know that you're willing to not pay your rent instead and you'd rather work on your business, but that's also not that's not like, that's also not.
Speaker 2:That's not it. That's not it, babe, that's not. And I love the enthusiasm and I get it. I get it so deeply because also entrepreneurs they'll either like they'll burn out their actual home or they're like physical home. Right, we often burn out physically because we just forget about it and the work feels more important and is more, way more interesting than taking a shower. And that's not the way to longevity, because that's also kind of the point. Right, it's not to like being a spiritual entrepreneur. And esoteric entrepreneur is not about just like regurgitating the tenets of capitalism, it's finding a different way of doing things. And capitalism is not about regeneration or even like generative work, it's about extractive work. So if you're going to do things differently, then you got to be like you have to be able to be here for the long haul, not just like a flash in the pan, not like the fast fashion of entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1:You have to be able to last. Yeah, I think I'm like having a spiritual moment right now, because that is like when I talk about esoteric entrepreneurship. Yes, it's about creating sustainable businesses and profitable businesses and doing things your way, and all the strategy and all of the mindset, all the stuff. But the reason why I bang this drum and I'm going to be on 12th house banging the drum there is because of the fact that, truly, this is how we supersede, like the patriarchy and capitalism and all these things that take from us and we utilize them to help us along our way. It's through this destigmatization of spiritual practices we can destigmatize that in business, we change the face of business. If we're doing this through entrepreneurship the people who are creating product, services and businesses we live in a completely different world. We live in a world that, like, I don't know what that looks like. I have an idea, but I'm really interested to find out because I'm not like loving where we're at, like we could change some things yeah.
Speaker 2:Like we're due for an edit.
Speaker 1:Like a top edit would be good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think with a lot of spiritual people, right? I think the past generation not to get like that. But the last generation of spiritual entrepreneurs were just straight up spiritual right. They're like I'm going to read my tarot cards and I'm going to own a crystal store, but I have no idea how much money we're making.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:I just trust the universe that people will come in, so much so that they maybe didn't and maybe didn't have the access to these tools that we have to understand entrepreneurship. And I feel now that sometimes people are so railing against capitalism and defining themselves by what they don't want to be that they actually end up perpetuating the same stuff, like when capitalism senses fear, it bucks the rider, so you can't be afraid of it, you just have to understand it. And it's almost like people are afraid to understand it, to even get close to it. So they're like I don't want to learn about money stuff, like I don't want to learn about a 401k or I don't know, like a profit first model. I just don't want to do that because I don't like capitalism. And that's actually like an amazing opportunity to do shadow work, because that's not what happens.
Speaker 1:We still live in that world, we still. There's still an acceptance of where we're at and you can't change without fully understanding what you've got in front of you and you can't take the best bits, because I'm a firm believer. Just in general, I heard this and this is definitely not mine. I actually heard this at a Dr D Martini talk. They went to randomly when I was in my corporate job and he was like nothing is all good or all bad, like nothing is all the way.
Speaker 1:Even the most horrific things, even the most horrific people in the world have smiled at their mother or whatever, no one is inherently all bad or all good, and so it always stuck with me because that was almost probably like eight years ago that I heard that talk. But it always stuck with me because it's reminded me and brought me back to perspective on these things that feel like obstacles, and whether that be an obstacle in my day, whether that be like, sometimes my feelings feel like an obstacle, sometimes my tech feels like an obstacle. Setting up for this recording was an obstacle. Trying to like it's like crazy, going on right now I'm always like it's not going to be all bad you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's not going to be all bad. And I think that if we can look at our businesses through that really loving lens of if my business isn't working for me right now, it's not because it hates me, because it's not all bad, and we can't also expect our business to just like give and we just sit back and receive it really gets to be this exchange and I think that's what that question always reminds me of is you're in a constant exchange with life. And if your life is your business and if life is just your relationship, whatever it is, but you're in a constant exchange, and if we can start to think deeply and if we can start to have these conversations like we're having today, it allows us to really engage with life and therefore create businesses and services that truly are what our soul came here to express and also deeply impact the world in a positive way, and that's where the money is.
Speaker 1:Baby, I'm not gonna lie. That's where the money is, that's where all the success is, that's where all the glory is, that's where all like your ego will actually be really happy there. So, yeah, I feel like it's about like how do you shift? If you're really focused on strategy right now, how do you shift a little bit more into the energetic sort of like why you do what you do and come back to your why, or if you're really in this on the other end of the spectrum, it's about shifting back, and I think it's just. This is such an interesting conversation, right, I feel like we could go and sit here and go on about this all day, but my last thing that I want to land in with you before we jump off is you've had this business for seven years.
Speaker 2:Six years. I misspoke earlier. I was like wait, has it been seven years? No, it's been six years. Six or seven years. There you go.
Speaker 1:And I would love to know if you could just share with us like a peek and a pit of that journey, Because I think that not enough entrepreneurs and this is something I'm starting to like really integrate into my work is just let's actually talk about, yeah, all the good things that are happening, but also some of the stuff that hasn't happened or didn't happen or you wish had happened, Because I think it's really important to just always ground in reality and in truth. So would you be able to just share with us a pit and a peek of?
Speaker 2:your business Totally. I have so many pits. I feel, like I have both pits and pikes to be honest with yeah, we always have negativity bias right, so we remember the pain I remember very vividly.
Speaker 2:I raised money for holisticism because I originally had built a technical product for entrepreneurs spiritual entrepreneurs and I was raising money and I remember coming home from a meeting with an investor and I had really just felt all wrong the whole time. I felt so not like myself and like actually so the opposite of what I was trying to make and what I was trying to do. I remember coming home and I was dating my husband at the time and standing in front of this kitchen sink and just sobbing and being like I don't like any of these people who want to invest in me and I need the money. I have no money. I need to take the money, but I don't want to take their money and I don't know what to do. I don't. I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with this thing. I know that there's like something here, but it's I don't know. I can't hear the answer and I'm scared, like how am I going to? How am I going to continue forward? And the what I knew was right was that I had to just turn that money down and be like I'm not. I don't really want you to be my boss, because if you take money from an investor, that's effectively what they are.
Speaker 2:I needed to make the thing that I wanted to make, not the thing that other people wanted me to make, and that was horrifying because I'd spent so much time and energy like trying and gotten really used and abused along the way and raising that capital and it was really easy decision to make once I made it, but it was really hard.
Speaker 2:It took months and months to like come to that determination and I'm so happy that I did what I did. But yeah, it was also like career suicide in that area in tech and gosh, I have so many pits. I recently had to fire somebody not recently, it was actually like a year ago, it feels recent, though because it wasn't fun I don't enjoy doing that and I had the hardest time trying to replace them and it just oh, I just felt like I couldn't get it to stick and it just wasn't working and I felt like I'd really failed them, even though I'd done everything that I could, and it just wasn't the right time and the right person. But that felt so that was like such a low point for me. It just felt so bad Getting fired socks. Firing someone's socks like it just sucks all around, I don't know. I'm sure you could speak to that too, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I actually recently also let somebody go, someone that I loved working with, and there are a multitude of reasons why it didn't work out, but it is the most difficult thing that no one really tells you about with growth, like you hear it, but like right now, the advice is what is it Highest, slow fire, fast, and it's my God that's so hard to do. One, if I need someone now and two now, you're telling me to tell them to go fuck themselves within three days. I can't. That's how it feels.
Speaker 1:Obviously, that's not the reality of it, but these are like soft skills that, like you, just learn through experience, and I think it does make you feel like a shitty person, and I will say like when I find this person, I cry in front of them and I was like look, I'm not going to sit here and let you know that this isn't tough for me. This is like a decision I wish I didn't have to make, but I'm making it and I know it's the right thing to do, and I'm sorry and I love you, and if the position is ever available again or things change in the future, or whatever it may be, I'd love to have you back, but for right now this position just isn't needed. Essentially we've pivoted a lot and that role just I was keeping her because she was my friend basically.
Speaker 2:People stuff is always the hardest for me because, like I was thrown into being a manager in my early 20s and just being really bad at it Other organizations that I worked for and it totally scarred me and made me so scared to be a bad boss.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to be. I just want to be a good boss. I want people to like their jobs and I have an amazing team that I work with now and that can be very hard when you're working with someone who's maybe not in the right role, and I have an awesome mentor who just held a premiere to me and was like if you're searching for places, like if you're trying to create a job for this person, like you're not doing them a service. If you're like making up a job just so they can stick around, you're not really doing them a service because they're not in their zone of genius either. You're actually like holding them back from a place where they can really shine and I think that like what they should be doing as opposed to pusing around like fake working for you. That's not a good use of like their soul.
Speaker 1:Anybody's time? Yeah, no, it could be a hiring thing too. I think it shows up in so many different ways is to really zoom out and look at the spiritual, energetic payoff that this actually has, and just even just the story, the energetic story that is occurring in this moment as well, would you say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, to start Holisticism, I had to not work at the companies that I worked at. I was like working full time as an editorial director, actually for an Australian company, and they had to go bankrupt. I had to lose that job and then I had to take on clients and then I had to get to the end of my client work before. I was like, okay, I'm going all in on this Holisticism thing, like I have to do it and that's really scary. But if they had just strung me along or said, yeah, no, let's keep, let's keep working together, let's just whatever we'd like, you will find a place for you, I would have continued to kick the can down the road, like I needed to burn the boats. In a way. I think a lot of us need that, like kicking the pants to or you can't go back, you have nowhere to go but forward.
Speaker 1:That's not always the right strategy, but for some people at the right time, tell us how we can connect with you. We're going to obviously put all the links down in the description, but is there anywhere specifically that you would send specific people? If not, just let us know where we can get you.
Speaker 2:You are going to be on our podcast, so people have to go listen to that. The 12th house it's like spiritual productivity is how we sometimes think. Call it and think about it and in email is best getting on our email list. I also have a pretty cool like free course going right now. It's 14 days to 100 K by spell crafting with words. I'm like I love writing and I love copy and I really do think that copywriting is magic. It's just magic words that cast a spell over your reader and change them from one way of being to another. And what is that if not alchemy? And it's one of my favorite things and it's great. I don't know 3000 people have gone through it so far and it always gets really rare reviews. So sign up for it. It's fun. You get a day of homework and over 14 days and, yeah, it's free.
Speaker 1:I love it. Oh my God. Thank you so much for this incredible conversation. I'm so excited to have that conversation with you guys over on 12th house, so make sure that you guys are over there subscribed. If you are from the holisticism world and you're listening to this, make sure that you're subscribed here so we can be friends now and thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for your work, thank you for your honesty, thank you for your vulnerability today this has been such a beautiful way for me to start my Friday and thank you, wow, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:This is the esoteric.
Speaker 1:On your podcast I can post judge's worry and I'll see you next episode. Thank you, thank you.