Navigating Recent Changes in the Charity Sector

In this episode, join Jenny Faulkner, Head of A&A and Compliance talking with Gemma Archer, Senior Manager in A&A and Compliance and a Charity Sector Specialist as they explore the changing landscape for Charities. This podcasts covers England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and the different thresholds that apply dependent on jurisdiction.  Gemma highlights some of the key themes arising from the publication of the finalised Charity SORP. 

For more information on this topic and more, please visit www.mercia-group.com for further details.

Transcript

Jenny Faulkner: Welcome to our podcast on Navigating Changes in the charity sector. My name's Jenny Faulkner. I am head of audit accounts and compliance here at Mercia Group. Hopefully many of you have met me. Talked to me, been on the phone with me over the years. I've been with Mercia for 50, 15 years now. So worked across pretty much all the roles within our team. 

And I am delighted to say I am joined with one of my senior managers today. So I have Gemma Archer, who's our senior manager within the A NA department who oversees our file review service, and she is also one of our leading charity special. And bless her. I say that very much she has agreed for me to ask her a few questions today. 

So first off, I just want to say thank you very much to Gemma. You are in the hot seat. Don't worry, I'm not gonna ask anything too challenging. But I really want to get my head to grips with all of the changes that are happening within the charity sector. And it feels like there are a lot of changes ongoing at the moment. 

Excuse me, everyone, I feel like I'm using this as a little bit of my own CPD time as well. Hopefully getting myself up to grips. And hopefully we can pinpoint a few areas where you might want a bit more detail at the end and help you as to where you can get that information from. So welcome Gemma. 

Gemma Archer: Thanks, Jenny. And yes, after what has seemed like a period of time where nothing much has changed for an awful long time, all of a sudden we've got a flurry of announcements and a flurry of changes going into sort of 20, 26 and beyond. So exciting times I think for the charity accounting sector right now. 

Jenny Faulkner: Yeah. Is that adult age of you don't have a, you don't have a bus when you need one and then they all come along at the same point, isn't it? Precisely. So lucky as lucky the accounts and audit profession that we've got lots of exciting things to be talking about. Let's get into some of the detail then. 

I have seen on the grapevine or heard on the grapevine that there have been quite a few changes to thresholds. And actually I think I was a little bit surprised myself when I went and had a quick look at it and thought. I don't think I realised just how many thresholds there are in relation to charity accounting, charity auditing, charity registration. 

The list seems a little bit endless. Can you let us know where we are and what's happened?  

Gemma Archer: Yes. So let's start with, I suppose the earliest change that we made, were made aware of, which was in Scotland actually. This one, I have to admit, flew a little bit under the radar for me at the consultation stage. 

But in March this year the Scottish, the office of the Scottish Charity Regulator. So Oscar announced that the audit threshold in Scotland would be increased to a million pounds. So income, gross income, which doubles it from the current threshold of 500,000 pounds. They indicated at that point in time that obviously there was legislation needed and that would all be going through the Scottish Parliament in the autumn. 

And then we've had a period of everything being quite quiet. I know and I know that I've constantly been refreshing pages and doing internet searches to find out what was going on there because it had all been very quiet. And, once you get into November, you think we're almost out of autumn and it's almost winter. 

But actually, but yeah, but actually so earlier this month, around about the 11th of November it was announced that subject to approval in the Scottish Parliament. So that still needs to go through the change would come into force for accounting periods beginning on or after 1st of January, 2026. 

So in terms of. Sort of actual implementation, we've probably still got a little bit of time to think about that. 'Cause let's face it, it's probably not really gonna have too much of an impact until your sort of December 26 year ends in the majority of cases. But it is good to see that the Scottish government and the Scottish charity regulator have actually looked at this. 

This has been something that. The charity sector has been asking for a really long time, and particularly since England and Wales increased their threshold to a million pounds income. The pressure in Scotland has been increasing. And you've got slight anomalies now because of cross border charities. 

So if you fall into that 500,000 to a million pound gap as a cross border charity, if you weren't one and you were only registered in England and Wales, you wouldn't need an audit. But the fact that you are cross border means that you do need to have an audit. And it all just gets a little bit. Messy. 

So it's actually quite nice to think, oh, are we bringing this into line with what's going on in England and Wales? Obviously I'll come on to England and Wales in a moment. But current estimates suggests that 93%. Of Scottish Charities will not require an audit under the new regime. So that's quite a significant number. 

Obviously charities are subject to further scrutiny requirements in the form of an independent examination. It's not like, nobody's looking at any of those accounts. But in terms of audit, that does seem to be quite a small number of Scottish charities. That will be, affected by that, that change really right. 

Jenny Faulkner: I many years ago, Gemma I used to teach the intro to charity course for Meia. And where my head has gone whilst you've been talking excellently really given us a great update, was just a reminder almost that whilst the thresholds are changing here, there may still be, other reasons for an audit being required. 

And I think that does sometimes get forgotten about in the charity sector. So what does the Constitution say? Does it have any of that, additional, it needs to have an audit wording because you're gonna have to have an audit if it says so. And I suppose also from funders as well, quite often they will request for an audit to be performed. 

Gemma Archer: Absolutely. And I think that point on constitutions and governing documents is an important one. Because like you say, it's quite easy to say, oh, we don't meet the criteria under the law, so we are not going to have an audit. And then actually your governing documents as you must have one. 

So you don't want to obviously fall out of that. And it's a really good prob, probably a timely. Reminder that actually charities do need to review their governing documents from time to time and make sure that they are up to date and keeping a pace with changes in not just the charity, but also the broader environment as well. 

We saw a bit of that happening around sort of 20 20, 20 21 when a lot of charities needed to think about the fact that perhaps their meetings, if they were happening remotely, weren't quo it and stuff like that because their governing documents defined quite rigidly what a meeting was. 

Again, this is probably a good opportunity to just remind, charity clients to have a look at those governing documents regardless of where you are in the uk.  

Jenny Faulkner: Yeah, absolutely. So it, it sounds like good news for Scotland they're catching up with England and Wales, but is that actually the case? 

Gemma Archer: This is the thing scotland has obviously announced this at the start of the year and then over the summer June, I think the consultation was open between June and September. DCMS decided they were going to open a consultation into all of their charity thresholds. There were a lot. 

I actually covered that in a previous edition of the Mercy of Podcast. And they looked at obviously one of those would be the audit threshold. And on the 31st of October DCMS announced that the England and Wales audit threshold is going to increase to one and a half million from the 1st of October, 2026. 

So whilst we thought we would have harmony. Actually the gap is just going to open up again.  

Jenny Faulkner: Could we say Scotland are always playing catch up to the thresholds that we perhaps see in England and Wales?  

Gemma Archer: Yeah quite possibly. What I would say is that obviously in Scotland, the number of charities. 

Is a lot smaller and the relative size of those charities is a lot smaller as well in England and Wales. So yes, on the one hand it does seem frustrating to have different thresholds between different parts of the uk. When you start to think about it, there is a bit of logic behind it. Now, I did see an article earlier this morning that indicated that the Charity Finance Group, which represents finance professionals in small charities, has actually urged the Scottish government to reconsider the audit threshold there once more and raise it to speed, 1.5 million to align with England and Wales. 

I'm not hopeful. That is purely my own speculation. I'm not hopeful that call will be answered, at least not in the immediate term. I think we still will see that threshold in Scotland increase to a million. Maybe later on it will increase further. We'll have to wait and see. 

But I think it's. It's good to see that sector bodies are drawing attention to that mismatch and making the devolved governments and central government aware that exists and what the practical implications of that are. The other thing I just wanted to pick up on, on England and Wales is that also at the same time as that audit threshold is going to increase the requirement to have an independent examination, that threshold is going to increase. So at the moment, if you have a gross income of 25,000 or more, you are required to have at least an independent examination that 25,000 pounds is going up to 40,000 pounds. Again, we are seeing a bit of an increase there personally. 

I'd have preferred it to go up to 50,000 pounds and have almost like a nice ground number. I don't think 40,000 pounds really appears anywhere else in the thresholds. But it's good to see that they are thinking about the the cost implications as much as the regulatory burden for charities there. 

Jenny Faulkner: I think I personally find that really interesting 'cause I do a couple of independent examinations outside of obviously my Mercy role and they are interestingly fitting under that 40,000 now. Yeah, I suspect there'll be a few a few charities who will no longer need that type of scrutiny. 

Excellent. Super. So are there any other threshold changes that you think are relevant from the England and Wales perspective? Obviously, we've talked about the audit threshold there.  

Gemma Archer: I wasn't gonna  

Jenny Faulkner: mention any others. That's fine. I suppose where my head went was and you perhaps may know the difference, but there used to always be a re part of the audit requirement had the, what I think of as the very old company law. 

Balance sheet number on. So for those of you who remember the very old company Law Balance sheet number, the company size was 3.26 million. And that's always sat in charity legislation. That number's never been linked to. Company size. But that number has sat in charity legislation in relation to, to assets in essence. 

I believe that number has been changed.  

Gemma Archer: I think 
 

we'll pick that up. I've unpaused, so we'll pick that up. Yeah, so the audit of accounts for larger charities, when you look at the asset basis, rather than just the gross income basis, that is going to rise to 5 million, which is interesting because it's now not going to align with. What we've got in the Companies Act or even the Old Companies Act threshold, because obviously that has changed as well. 

Yes, but at least it's a nice round number that we can we can look at and have in our heads. 'cause that 3.26 million always used to get a little bit stuck even when it was in the company's ACT regulations. 

Jenny Faulkner: It certainly did, although. I think when I read that this new limit was gonna be 5 million, I couldn't quite decide whether I was happy about it or not in the context of it's delinked itself from the numbers within company law, which I think I liked, but then it was so similar to what I would consider the old balance sheet number, but wasn't quite the same being, 5.1 versus five. 

I thought, oh, that's close. Are people gonna get even more confused about it? Or is it going to be okay? Because it's just a different number now and therefore it might be easier to remember. So it'd be interesting to see how that pans  

Gemma Archer: out, yeah, and it is an interesting one because I, and I remember thinking about this when responding to the consultation on it because. 

Obviously when company companies size criteria increased from the 3.26 to the 5.1, the charities ones didn't change and I thought that it would've been a really good opportunity with this set of reviews, given they didn't change at that point in time, to raise them so that they would align with the current set of companies act ones, because it would've made life a lot easier for charitable companies and the like. 

So I think it's interesting that they've, that DCMS have still kept that. Slightly below where we might expect it to be, otherwise be when actually, initially the intention would've been to keep it in line with small companies. Yeah. And  

Jenny Faulkner: I'm glad you are. You are on this podcast with me, Gemma. 

'cause you're making it so clear. All of these different thresholds and it, I always find it a really difficult sector to work in because there are so many different thresholds. So thank you for your clarity in this area. Where my head's going now though, is we started with Scotland, we've talked about England and Wales. 

Let's just throw in another jurisdiction because Northern Ireland obviously have their own separate legislation. Where are we with Northern Ireland,  

Gemma Archer: though? Northern Ireland hasn't started to consult yet. On audit reg audit thresholds. At the moment the plan is for those to remain the same and just for clarity that is a gross income threshold of 500,000 pounds. 

But there has been, and this review has been ongoing since about 2021. There has been an independent review of charity regulation going on in Northern Ireland. And there it is a report that's come out in the last few months where it has been recommended that the audit threshold for. 

Charity group accounts is amended. So there's not, there's no detail in the report as to what level they think it should be at. Although there's allusion to the fact that it probably should line up with England and Wales or Scotland, so we are expecting to see something around the sort of 1 million to one and a half million mark. 

But. We'll just, there's no sort of plans in the works yet to see a change there imminently. So we'll just have to see how that's going. Obviously I think probably the progress of that review might have been slightly hampered by the fact that sort of storm on wasn't really doing very much for quite a long period of time and now they've got the government back together. 

In Northern Ireland, then hopefully things will start to move again. 

Jenny Faulkner: It's an interesting one though that you were quite specific in that like, would, thinking about it from a group perspective, 'cause in both England and Wales and Scotland and I think Northern Ireland. Currently, at least the sort of audit threshold and the group threshold are aligned within the relevant jurisdiction. 

So to refer to one not the other. Is that do we read something into that? Now? I know that is purely speculative, but I just wondered if you had a thought on that.  

Gemma Archer: It was interesting because I have to say, I read this about. Five times to make sure that I'd actually read it correctly. And that I didn't need sort of new glasses or anything like that. 

Because I did think it was very strange. And it also, it, I suppose the one thing that stuck in my head was it made me wonder if it, if they really meant the audit threshold, first of all, or whether they actually meant the sort of group accounts. Or the level of income at which you ought to prepare group accounts ought to change. 

But yeah I don't know what to read into it. I just think it's a slightly it was a very specific recommendation, which I'm not entirely sure where it's come from in, in terms of why you wouldn't just consider, all charities and, include groups within that. So yes, it'd be an interesting to consider. 

Jenny Faulkner: So I think a case of watch this space and see how fast that evolves and hopefully when we speak again on a charity podcast, we'll have something to update you on that front.  

Gemma Archer: Indeed. But certainly if we are doing courses or if we're talking to clients about their. 

Their sort of audit thresholds and the like. Then we. Still unfortunately do need to be mindful of which jurisdiction they're registered in. When giving advice really, and I suppose that's the key message to take away is actually, yes, all of this is changing, but let's make sure that we get the right advice to the right clients. 

Jenny Faulkner: Yeah, and I think just link to that I know you've made reference to it already, but it's those cross border charities, whether it's England and Wales and Northern Ireland, England, Wales Scotland, Northern Island, however, those cross border charities work all three jurisdictions, all four jurisdictions. 

Then, you've really got to understand the detail behind it. I'm sure many people listening to this podcast already use the Mercy of Charities manual. There's some really helpful eligibility checklists in there, which obviously now we've had updated thresholds and the like, they will be amended and we'll get a revised version out to you as soon as practically possible. 

But it is just a case of really think through whether you understand the rules. And Gemma, I know you do some of our CPD courses. So I presume they're gonna, this type of thing's gonna feature quite heavily on our CPD charity courses in over the next, what, six months or so?  

Gemma Archer: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we've got plenty of courses coming up on the, 2026 program and these, this information will be in there, in, in the level of detail that you would need Yeah. For your safety.  

Jenny Faulkner: Unfortunately, we don't have a, an hour today or even hours to get into all of that nitty gritty. And there is a lot of nitty gritty here that can really get your head thinking. 

Okay. So we've talked quite a lot about thresholds there, or we've had a really good detailed summarization. That's not the only change that's gone on recently. You talked about some, the thresholds in England and Wales coming out on Halloween on the 31st of October, but I believe something else came out on Halloween in relation to charities. 

Gemma Archer: Yes. So I'd been frantically refreshing the charity sort page. Really once it got to the 1st of October, I know most people get to the 1st of October and say, cozy season is here and I can have my pumpkin spice lattes and the like. I was just there on the charity sort website, refreshing to my heart's content. 

Hoping to eventually see that the charity sort had been issued. And I did have to wait right until the end of the month unfortunately, for that to come up. But yes, we finally have a finalized version of the 2026 charities sort. And I suppose the question. That everyone's probably wondering is what's changed. 

Absolutely. Between that exposure draft and the final version. And the answer is not very much of any substance. I think there will, and as we go into the detail, and we will look at this as say, on our courses and things, there are extra examples in there. There is wording that has been clarified or rewritten, but. 

But fundamentally the exposure draft really ended up being the final version. And I think. I know that some sort of res some of the respondents to the consultation will be disappointed that perhaps there wasn't the sort of scale of change that they had hoped for. I suppose anything related to the changes in FRS 1 0 2 was never really going to change. 

Jenny Faulkner: Yeah,  
 

Gemma Archer: absolutely.  

Jenny Faulkner: Two, two, just not available. What? It's, yeah. FRS 1 0 2 was revised by the FRC and that is the leading standard. And the SOP is just an interpretation for the sector, isn't it? So they can only play with what they have rather than being able to make any whole scale amendments. 

Gemma Archer: Precisely. I suppose if I just loop back a little bit, so why did we actually change the sort? Primarily because FS 1 0 2 was updated and particularly around revenue from as it is in FS 1 0 2 contracts with customers, but as it is within the sort exchange transactions and also leases. 

But what the, what the SOP committee decided to do was to do a wholesale update of the structure of the SOP and the content of the sop. So in addition to bringing in all of the FRS 1 0 2 stuff that needed to come in, we also have some new modules where they've split things out to make existing modules a little bit shorter, a bit punchier, make it easier to find things. We have a new module for leases. So anywhere that leases were previously mentioned, it's all been carved out and put into its own module. We also have a new one on provisions because people complained that was a bit long sitting within the expenditure and liabilities section. 

And we've got a lot more examples. Even actually the language of the sort has been changed quite significantly. So I have to say, I used to read sort of previous versions of the sort have read in quite a, for want of a better phrase, cuddly way. And I think the sort of the 2026 talk. 

Is written in slightly more of a technical way. There are more, I think there are more words and phrases that are lifted from probably the originating accounting standard than we have perhaps seen in seen before. And I think that might make it a little bit. Less access accessible to some people. 

But we'll have to wait and see. But I think, there's still sufficient explanation and examples of specific scenarios that charities solely come across. That I think it makes the whole thing a little bit useful. But the other thing that sort of, I think got the most attention in terms of changes was around this tiered reporting. 

So it's long been discussed that, smaller charities reporting under the sort had to produced quite lengthy or it was felt that they needed pro to produce quite lengthy narrative reporting that perhaps was less proportionate. And so one of the things that the sort making body looked at was okay, can we change how we need to apply the sort in certain areas to say, actually the smallest charities need to do less. Then the larger charities do more. And historically we've just had this distinction between larger charities and. Charities Now we've got three tiers of reporting. The smallest charities are still those under a million pounds worth of income. 

We've then got the largest charities, which is known as tier three, being those with income over 15 million pounds. And then tier two sits in the middle of that now. I think you and I may have talked about this before, Jenny. And certainly we've def, I've definitely talked about this on courses. One of the criticisms of that approach when the exposure draft came out is there is quite a big difference between a 1.1 million pound charity and a 14.9 million pound charity. 

And so how can we have a tier that sort of covers that? Arguably there's a very big difference between a 15 million pound charity and a hundred million pound charity, and they're having to do the same level of reporting. As someone who worked with charities and looked at lots and lots of sets of trustees reports, I think most charities know even within those tiers what is proportionate to them. 

So naturally, I think a sort of 1.1 million pound charity can meet the requirements of tier two. And still produce, if you like, less than a 14.9 million pound charity doing the same thing. The other thing to consider, of course, is that charities often have quite diverse activities and you can have very small charities that are doing lots and lots of different things that necessitate reporting on. 

Large, you might have larger charities with single objects or and everything in between. So it is quite difficult to have, you can't have one size fits all, but it's equally difficult to have these sort of tiers and try and please everyone. But I think naturally we will see best practice emerge in this area. 

And hopefully we will see some really good, examples of reporting and using those tiers to a charity's advantage.  

Jenny Faulkner: Yeah. And just a bit of a question. I think it's more of a clarification piece, but obviously we started with talking about thresholds and we've just been talking about the sort and the tiering, and you made reference to a 1 million sort of threshold. 

And that isn't linked to any audit thresholds. That is just a threshold within the sort. And therefore that will hold in England and Wales, in Scotland, in Northern Ireland because any of those charities should be preparing. Their financial statements in accordance with the charity sop. Is that correct? 

Have I interpreted that? Yes.  

Gemma Archer: Yes, that's right. That is right. So that is the tiering within the sop, and if you are applying the SOP that you would follow, but it isn't connected to things like audit thresholds or even actually the thresholds or the. Criteria that you need to meet to prepare accruals accounts or not accruals accounts, which actually also vary across the different jurisdictions. 

And I'm not gonna go into that today because we don't have time. But yeah, that's a whole, that's a whole other kettle of fish.  

Jenny Faulkner: I think what we're trying to drum into people though, is there's a lot of thresholds and you've gotta know what those thresholds are in order to make sure. The accounts are pre prepared correctly that they're being externally scrutinized at the right level by the right people, even dependent on whether it's someone that needs to be qualified, if there's an independent examiner, et cetera. 

So lots and lots of different things to, to get people's head into. Yeah. Wow. Okay. We talked about two things that are really quite detailed. I have one final thing that I would love to get your clarity on. And it is just around I've been hearing about a new international standard for not for profits. 

Can you just gimme a very quick update as to what that is and whether it impacts the mercy of client base?  

Gemma Archer: Yeah. Yes, so we do actually for the first time have essentially an international accounting standard for nonprofits. Now, this is a project that's been going on for many years and has finally come to fruition with a standard that has been produced. 

It has, it's been born out of, I think, more the sort of international development sector and where there is a lot of institutional funding, funding from different governments and agencies around the world and a need to get clarity and comparability across different reporting. 

That plus the fact that. Most other jurisdictions around the world don't really have what we have here in the uk, which is a specific financial reporting framework for charities and not-for-profits. That's I suppose the idea behind it. It is based on IFRS for SMEs, but it has been substantially, sort of changed for charities and not-for-profits, I should say. Not profit non-profits really, because it might not be a charity. There is. A financial reporting element, there's a grant reporting element. The idea is that if you were to adopt that you'd use both together, but you can use them as standalone. 

So we, they've got apparently funders who would like people to start using the grant reporting element for their donor reporting and the like. I think the important thing to note if you are based in the UK is that right now this has no impact on what charities. Can do. So charities in the uk if they are producing accruals accounts, must produce accruals accounts under the statement of recommended practice, the sort. 

So that is in the legislation. There's no, at the moment, there is no means for them to utilize the international standard for nonprofits, however. In the future, who knows, maybe, there will be, but right now there isn't. As much as, if you are dealing with particularly the international development sector, there might be discussion and questions about it. 

There might be grant reporting that needs to be done under it. There might even for, consolidation purposes. Have to be additional reporting done under it for reporting somewhere where this is going to be taken on and used by charities. There might be additional work for those charities to do, but right now here in the UK it's not in use. 

However, we need to watch this space and see what happens. Sorry. There is one thing I just, there's a couple of things I did just want to mention. Obviously both. Both of both the sort, because it comes from FRS 1 0 2, which is based on IFRS for SMEs. And this standard actually come, if you like, almost from the same source. 

So actually it will be interesting to see what happens in the future, whether there is a little bit of bringing together, maybe we won't have a saw in, 20 years time because everyone will be using this, who knows. But the other thing that I found very interesting when I was looking at this is that the sort focuses on activity based reporting. 

There is an option for NAT for reporting by natural classification for smaller charities, but predominantly it pushes activity based reporting. The international standard for nonprofits pushes reporting by natural classification. And I think that's something that we'll just have to see how that sort of, how our sector here in the UK responds to that and whether, charities think that would be a good idea or not. 

Yeah, I did just want to bring those couple of thoughts in there.  

Jenny Faulkner: Excellent. So in essence good to have an awareness of it because there are perhaps quite rare, but there are potential scenarios whereby you may need to think about it. Mostly gonna be if you are dealing with charities globally almost. 

But very much business as usual for UK charities applying the charity sort continue to do absolutely. Yes. Excellent. Super. So I've got one sort of final question and I think you've answered part of it as we've gone through, but it would be good just to have a roundup as to when does this all change from, what are the effective dates? 

Gemma Archer: No. If we start with the newp new comes into force, the accounting periods commencing on or after 1st of January, 2026. In the main, we will be looking at preparation of those December 20, 26 accounts as the earliest point. Obviously you might have short accounting periods and the like but generally speaking, we've got over the next year time to actually look at what the implications might be and prepare for that. 

Then threshold changes, so Scotland subject, as I said, to approval in Scottish Parliament. The audit threshold changes would come into force for accounting periods beginning on or after 1st of January, 2026. So again, aligning with that sort. For the England and Wales. Ones, it's not, I'm gonna say not a hundred percent clear, whether they mean the effective date is 1st of October, 2026, or accounting periods commencing on or after 1st of October, 2026. 

We do need, I think, a little bit of clarification on that. On that point. But 1st of October, 2026 is the date that they have said the audit threshold for England and Wales Charities is going to increase. And I think all of those other threshold changes that were in the consultation will come into force. 

Yes, and I think from memory.  

Jenny Faulkner: And please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I think from memory, the last change in England and Wales to the thresholds were done on an effective date rather than a periods commencing. Yes. What happened last time doesn't necessarily mean  

Gemma Archer: no. This is the thing. 

The way it is phrased is that it's an effective date. But given what happened with the change in the company audit thresholds earlier this year, it does make me wonder whether that's actually what the government means. So we will do a little bit of digging and see if we can find a little bit more clarity on that. 

Okay.  

Jenny Faulkner: So on that basis, I think everyone should be joining one of your charity courses this year to get the ins and outs of the changes in the threshold, changes in sorts and absolute clarity on those effective dates as we get closer to them.  

Gemma Archer: Definitely, and hopefully see a few faces on those courses. 

Jenny Faulkner: Super. So I just wanted to say a huge thank you to Gemma. Really articulate, clear, easy to understand. I've got it in my head as to the overview as to what's changing and I can't wait to listen to one of your courses, attend one of your courses, and get into the detail as well. So thank you very much. 

And hopefully. Hopefully see get to hear people on our next podcast. So thank you everyone. Have a good day.