spk_0:   0:00
What you doing Sunday we talk about Cate Blanchett D acting, the costumes, the awards, but mostly Theo Blanchett of it all sleep with around here to get a Stoli martini with a twist of lemon. This'd is Sunday's escaped and I'm your host, Mortada. I'll welcome to the first episode of Sunday's Escape, a podcast series about the films of Cate Blanchett. Every week we will choose the film for discussion, and I thought that there is no better start than with the film that brought her to global star them. We will be discussing Elizabeth, the 1998 Shakar Kapur movie that starred Cate Blanchett and my guests today is Te'o Bucky. We met and became fast friends. I'm over a period of a few months in 2015 where we saw another Kate movie Carol. Several

spk_1:   1:05
times. Hello, Mirsada.

spk_0:   1:09
Welcome to the broadcast Down.

spk_1:   1:11
Thanks for having me here with you on the day that we talk about the movie that I know Made you fall in love with Cate Blanchett. A topic of conversation which has come up maybe every single time we've ever hung out.

spk_0:   1:25
Yes, I do talk about Kate a lot. So If you know me and you act with me, you definitely would notice. So, Elizabeth, I remember I was on a trip to London. I had still not moving into space. I was living back in Sudan. I was in London sometime in the full of 98 maybe October or November, and I went and saw Elizabeth and a movie theater in Marble Large. I still remember it, and I could not believe this actress. I didn't know her. I just saw the movie because it seemed like a movie I'd be interested in. And I completely and utterly fell in love. And here we are, almost 20 years later, actually words more than 20 years. So who this Kate play?

spk_1:   2:14
Kate In this movie, you may guess, is playing Queen Elizabeth the first of England, though she is on Lee of one of the Protectorates,

spk_0:   2:26
and this is one of many movies in which the character she plays is the title of the movie Blue Jasmine. Charlotte Gray Carol. Thank God he met Lizzie. She's always this title character.

spk_1:   2:39
This would be a very good late night trivia question. Name all of the Cate Blanchett movies in which her character is the title of the movie. Yes, you would do very well.

spk_0:   2:49
I would definitely I would win that, whatever that is. So Elizabeth was directed by Shakar Kapur, and among the many, many actors in it. Richard, Adam Bro, Geoffrey Rush, Joseph fines, Emily Mortimer, killing a doddle, Fanny, Our Dong Daniel, Craig and other is There are so many sort of well known Mainz in back that

spk_1:   3:12
Well, let's not forget the two most important, Alfie and Lily Allen.

spk_0:   3:17
Yes, Alfie Allen and Lily Allen play were kids at the time, and they play these kids that appear later in the movie. And I think they got class because their mom, Alison Owens, is one of the movie's producers.

spk_1:   3:30
I mean, and they have the souls of scamps. Yo, it wound up working out in favor of the movie.

spk_0:   3:38
Kate is introduced seven minutes into the movie and I room, and this is a grand introduction and part of probably why people stood up notice because for the first 67 minutes of the movie she's talked about and then the camera goes to this field and there are many women dancing in the field and then

spk_1:   4:03
she's like the hot one way that it's staged. It's definitely like you're supposed to notice.

spk_0:   4:10
Yes, you're supposed to notice her, but also there's a little bit of a divergent because then Kelly MacDonald comes with Joseph fines on a horse, and you're like, Is that Is

spk_1:   4:20
that the hot one Eyes? She the new hot one? Yes,

spk_0:   4:25
but then he goes back and all the other ladies go away and it's just Elizabeth in the frame, and that's the first time you see Kay.

spk_1:   4:33
She also doesn't really talk in that scene too much. A lot of looking around.

spk_0:   4:37
Yes, and then the credits start playing, and it's just for unjust fines, dancing and canoodling.

spk_1:   4:44
Gross goes. We're gonna talk at some point about how I feel about Joseph finds, but I, like can't Deal. 1998 was a really year for him. Yeah, and it was like the one year where everyone lost their minds and thought he was the hot fines. But it was only for that year. I know it's crazy. It was like it's like Scott. It

spk_0:   5:02
was just that one year and then never again.

spk_1:   5:05
Yeah, as like, yes, time corrected itself.

spk_0:   5:10
So the way that they're they're showing Elizabeth's and Lord Dudley canoodling and sort of kissing on each other.

spk_1:   5:18
Sorry, Lord Dudley, I lost it. It

spk_0:   5:21
is what I think is one of the reasons why this movie, WAAS, beloved and sort of successful and well reviewed at the time because it presented this new version of history, especially of history of Elizabeth's. The First.

spk_1:   5:35
Yes, a slutty virgin. So

spk_0:   5:38
it was a Cardinal Elizabeth. It was also a very violent Elizabeth. There is a lot of violence in this movie and a lot of violent emotions. Everybody's emotions are at 7000 which is not what you are used to seeing in sort of Masterpiece Theatre history, which

spk_1:   5:57
for British people, British people, Yes, they're very. They're very buttoned up.

spk_0:   6:02
So I know you have something to say about how the emotions in this movie are so high at all times.

spk_1:   6:11
Well, so you and I have a different relationship with this movie in general. Which is to say that when it came out, I was five years old. I was five years old, so I had maybe seen a mere two with the other Elizabeth. The first Bette Davis, but I have not made my way to Cate Blanchett yet. I was not old enough to be following the Oscars until I came to this movie much later, when I was in like a first Blush it. I need to watch every movie that's ever been nominated for best actress, and at the time, I did not particularly care for it but didn't really have any feelings about it and then promptly forgot about it for like 10 years. Besides being like spicy and conversations to say, Actually, I think when it's Paltrow should have one, um, and then we watched it a couple years ago to find it completely in cohere. Think as a child. I rejected this movie because it was too much too much for me, and in a way that was off putting. I like find the sort of like hyper emotionalism, which is something that I like in a lot of movies. I tend to respond to love, a melodrama I love sort of, ah, heightened state of emotions. I love a film that takes form and color and muse on san and staging and uses all of those things too, like portray us a single feeling at a at a given time so that you're overwhelmed by a feeling and an image. But what's going on in this movie is that none of those things are coming together. S o the clothes, they're crazy. The dialogue is crazy. The performances are like in completely different zones and worlds from each other. There's no relationship in the staging that suggesting what is being expressed through the dialogue. And so it comes across for me is like a tornado hurricane. It's a tornado of feelings. I'm just being whipped back and forth in a lot of people's just passion for England.

spk_0:   8:24
Yes, and I think you know it does. I agree that, you know, I love this movie at the time because I just fell in love with Kate and I remember a lot of like her scene, especially. I think the ending of the movie is something that is very memorable and sort of indelible in that because you see her first in this introduction that we just talked about and she's just another young woman dancing in the field, and then the end scene is this image that we all know Elizabeth's the first and so literally. That ending shows you how that little girl at the beginning becomes this image of Elizabeth's that, you know, was the white face on, you know, the white makeup on her face and the short red hair off,

spk_1:   9:07
observed Lord Burleigh. I'm married, doing e have a lot of questions about the hair, specifically, if we could talk about that because so there comes a point at the beginning of the movie. She has long, beautiful flowing hair, and that's how you're introduced. To her is she has this magnificent like gorgeous mane of like wig. And that

spk_0:   9:39
is not how we know Elizabeth the first to

spk_1:   9:41
wreck exactly. But then, then, by the end, as you said, she has like the sort of crown of curls. But there's a middle point hair wise. But the movie does not address where she fucks once and then wakes up the next day with crown of curls, also long hair coming back from it. It's like a bit of a party in the front main in the back, but it's never explained, and part of the sex transformed. Her girl pattern is completely different. She like went from like a one. A two a three. Be overnight,

spk_0:   10:19
Yeah, So not only is there no consistency in emotions, there is no consistency in wigs,

spk_1:   10:24
and those wigs were nuts. And it's almost like two wigs at once, like there was a front wig in a back wig. And then there's a whole plot point, a whole scene where she gets just the back wig cut off. Yes, and nothing else goes. It's just the front way from from the rest of the movie on,

spk_0:   10:44
I mean wig off aficionados off, which we know many are also, actress aficionados are gonna love this part. I wanted to go back a little bit and asked you, You said you watched this movie later on. You didn't see it at the time because you're too young. But like, was that the first time you so Kate or have, or did you have a history with her when you saw the movie

spk_1:   11:08
I was trying. I did have a history of her when I saw them, so I think the first thing that I ever saw her end would have been Lord of the Rings, which came out when I waas eight on. So it was a big movie for me and the others at the time. Um, and it's a funny thing because I do think that was the first thing I ever saw her in. But I remember she has a big scene in that room where it's instead of a dock law. You will have a queen, you know. And I remember that scene happening and having the thought. This is a famous person. So I knew her as a famous person before I knew her as an actress and then knew her very specifically and as the famous person who's brought in to do the big monologue, which is what happens in Lord Rings. And then I think I saw The Aviator next, which I was a huge fan growing up of Katharine Hepburn and a huge fan of like, classic film in general and thought she was amazing in that it is a very good memory. And so I liked Kate by the time that I saw Elizabeth, but she wasn't one of my great favorites,

spk_0:   12:26
Yes, and so when we when we're going back to history, you know, this brings us to the point about the historical veracity of this film, which nothing tracks. Nothing that happens in this movie tracks the history, and I have this quote from Shakar Kapur in. I'm going to read it out because I think it's very interesting, he says. I had to make a choice, whether I wanted the details of history or the emotions and essence of history to prevail, which is very funny because the emotions are so

spk_1:   12:56
Theo. History is as haphazard. It's the emotions I know. While I was watching it to prepare for this podcast, I had the screen up tow, watch them and be and then another. I was had my phone out to follow with the Wikipedia page to try to figure out what the fuck was going on. What is going on here? What, like Who is Josefine supposed to be? Historically? Because Robert Dudley didn't take part in a rebellion S X did, but that he's not a character in the film.

spk_0:   13:33
If it is, it's mambo of both.

spk_1:   13:36
I think it's supposed to be. But then that's kind of weird, because it was like Dudley had an affair with one of her maids. So then I was trying to figure out if Kelly McDonough was supposed to be the maid that then gets pregnant tohave Essex, who then later in life, has a thing with Elizabeth when she's old and he's young, but no. Then she just winds up dying from the poison dress. And so there was just a lot even like the hiss. Usually in these movies, they tend to fudge the history of, you know, the battles or the timing of, like, the national politics. That, of course, is completely issued here like they don't even been wanting to try. But even the interpersonal drama, it's fudged like getting to know, like what the what? The Goss Waas

spk_0:   14:19
was amusing. What I think worked for me at the time, and what I still think works is this portrait of Elizabeth becoming a head of state, which had led to a lot of reviews at the time, comparing Elizabeth to The Godfather because the journey of Elizabeth is sort of mirrors the journey of Michael Corleone.

spk_1:   14:41
And this is something that Murtada brought up to me as we were sitting down to record this podcast, and I'm happy that my initial reaction isn't captured on audio because I think that's ridiculous. I think, fundamentally, just don't I, like, understand in theory. But hate it. I hate it. I hate this comparison. I hate it. It's so it's all of the worst things about the nineties to meet in this so well. In the sense of the obsession with I feel Like We're in an era where the obsession with the Godfather has died down to some degree as meaning, sort of the ultimate fume in American film history. There's, I think, uh, in every sort of nest and any generation. There is a nostalgia for exactly 20 years before, So now our nostalgia's for like my best friend's wedding, for example. But the nineties nostalgia object was totally the Godfather until, of course, all of these nerds, no offense to my fellow film. Critics were sitting down to review Elizabeth making. How could I relate this to the best movie ever made? The Godfather?

spk_0:   15:53
Yeah, I take. I take that note. I don't think it really marries The Godfather, although shaking before, has admitted that he lifted the scene right before the lives of his transforms into Elizabeth, where she's reading Scripture and they are, and then everybody is arresting and killing the conspirators against her that he lifted that literally from the ending of the hot water,

spk_1:   16:20
which is offensive to The Godfather. That is a beautiful scene. That scene is beautifully, beautifully choreographed, beautifully filmed, beautifully paced. The cement Elizabeth is rushed in incoherence. Like much of the film,

spk_0:   16:34
what I think is a more interesting point of the about this movie is something that, when going on to research for this episode, I read a few interviews with K at the time, And one thing that she kept repeating in these interviews is that this is an interpretation of English history, told from the point of view of outsiders, and not just any outsiders but outside this from the British Commonwealth. So Kapoor is Indian, and she is Australian to countries with a lot of sort of mixed history with

spk_1:   17:11
England and Nate. Yes, yeah, I think that does come through in the movie, especially the opening minutes of them will be leading up to Kate's introduction. Elizabeth's introduction. Excuse me. Ugo, leading up to Kate's introduction, is extremely violent and focused on sort of the Protestant Catholic battle that was happening in Europe at the time, with a lot more, I would say contemporary passion than what is usually what is usually brought to bear on that conflict on. And I do think that there are ways in which it mirrors to some degree, like different dynamics of, like Indian politics, with regards to, like Muslim and Hindi, um, conflict over the last, you know, 100 years. But I think that that perspective is something that does come through in the movie to its credit, but that the movie kind of loses it midway through like it gets. And this is part of why I hate Joseph finds in the movie so much. The film focuses so much on the love affair that what is more interesting in it is the Catholic dynamic to me at least, like the B, the power play of skate and religion, and the way in which a single person at that time was having to navigate what the state's relationship to religion is is like a very fascinating and fraught topic, and the movie sort of drops it in favor of I don't even know, like the bed sheets with the lesser finds.

spk_0:   18:53
Yes, it is it does really concentrate a lot on that love affair and sort of I think it even lessons Elizabeth's journey because it makes the dissolution of that love affair in her disappointment in him as a reason for her becoming the state's woman. That she is when it would have been more interesting to just, you know, to talk to your point about the politics and how she became to be a state's person.

spk_1:   19:18
It's also, I think, to a disservice to what was a huge part of Elizabeth's, historically, her foreign policy, which at the time was to basically pretend to people that she was gonna marry, You know, like for 20 years, she avoided wars with much larger states by being like, Maybe I'll marry the King of Sweden. You know, that's like That is historically one of the more interesting ways in which of, for one of the first women rulers of a European state use gender as a means of manipulating the state on. There's a way to play that that's not just she's not getting married to these people because she's lost in love with Joseph fines,

spk_0:   20:03
and that brings us up to sort of Vincent Cassell subplot

spk_1:   20:08
was trying to find another way to say, Elephant in the room, yank elephant in the room. So I actually,

spk_0:   20:15
you know, Vincent Cassel plays on Jew who is Ah, French Prince. And he is the nephew of Mary, of geese, who's played behind Garden. He's one of the many suitors that proposed to Elizabeth, and this would have been sort of if she took him as, ah, as a husband, it would have brought England France together. And so she is. Actually, this is where I think the movie sort of presents Elizabeth's very smart, intuitive woman who knows what's going on. So she somehow intuits that he's not that interested in her. And she uses that to sort of manipulate the situation to her benefit, so not to alienate the French, but the same time not to marry him too

spk_1:   21:01
well. Should we get into how this happens in the film?

spk_0:   21:06
Yes. So how is how

spk_1:   21:07
is he introduced? Well, he hasn't. He has a very spicy introduction. We should say he comes on a boat. They're like these little rowboats. I don't know what the technical term for them is in. In Britain, But they get on these little rowboats all the French, and they come over and there's like a one hotman, one hot man who's standing at the front of the rowboat and everybody is sort of like looking over like, Hey, what's up?

spk_0:   21:31
I do look good,

spk_1:   21:33
right? And so this the Hotman comes over and he's got his little moustache and then pops out from behind him. Vincent Cassel. To be like, Is me? It's me. I'm a Jew,

spk_0:   21:46
which is very, very. It's a very, very funny moment, but it's also, you know, back to our point of sort of the tone of this film. It's like it's

spk_1:   21:55
a jack in the box. Yeah, it took me completely out. Excuse me, A jack in the box. It's just

spk_0:   22:01
it doesn't sort of like, Wow, there's a joke in the middle of Elizabeth because so back to our point about Shakur being Shakar Kapur being an outsider, I think it doesn't always work, but he did not sort of feel a fealty to make this a very respectable portrait of Elizabeth. So it's sexy. It's violent. It's comedic. It's like all kinds of tones, which is interesting if even if it doesn't work,

spk_1:   22:36
do you think it's sexy? I

spk_0:   22:39
mean, it's carnal. I mean, it presents Elizabeth as a sexual

spk_1:   22:43
being, but yes, and I think for the time it reads as sexy. But I wouldn't say that watching it now I feel like it's a sexy movie. It's very awkward. Eyes

spk_0:   22:58
this. Just because you don't like Josefine scares a lot of if you you have to find. Josefine is attractive to think this movie sexy.

spk_1:   23:06
You're right, you're right. The movie rests a lot on being hot for Josefine, but also I think there is a way in which the the way sex is approached in the movie is very much like a total surrender. You know where the court itself is. This high stakes court, which then, like the romance in the movie, is they both given to romance, you know. But that concept and conception of sexuality and sensuality to me doesn't read a sexy Rita's corny like inherently, even if Joseph finds was hot, which he's not. But even if it did, I feel like it just takes me out of the movie. It takes me out of the movie every time they're in that whole space of, like so looking in your eyes and creepy, You know, at the time

spk_0:   24:06
who I found sexy was Christopher Eccleston, who plays nor ful.

spk_1:   24:11
Definitely, absolutely,

spk_0:   24:13
Andi. He spends a lot of the time in the movie just walking around. Yeah, very forcefully, and I always love sexy walk.

spk_1:   24:20
He's a bitter bitch like, Yeah, and I like it Definitely, definitely sexiest person in the movie is done here. Don't just Swarms likes swaggers in as Maria G's to Shade. Everyone know exactly what crazy movie she's in have. Like like Susan Santa Gray streaks in her hair and then die

spk_0:   24:46
after sleeping with Walt. Well,

spk_1:   24:48
maybe her nephew like the movies, implying that she's also fucking Vincent Cassel

spk_0:   24:53
because they do kiss on the mouth at least a couple of times, right? Um, but also this movie, you know, talking about sex, we have to mention that Walt Ingham is presented Squier, or at least bi curious

spk_1:   25:05
what was going on there at the beginning, right?

spk_0:   25:08
Yes, The first scene he's was a very young man where they're both half dressed and sort of its strongly implies that they just finished having sex and that man was sent by Norfolk to kill him,

spk_1:   25:21
right? And I was watching that, and I was like, Is this is some like the movie is very coy about what's going on in that room in a way that I mean, maybe part of it is just it's disorienting to see Geoffrey Rush at the present, partly because of, like his recent re, his recent cancel ization three canceling. So it's disorienting to see him in that role, or to see him and to see him in that role and also to not know if, historically, the movie is resting on something. So that also comes up with the Vincent Cassel character, where he, the way in which he's rejected by Elizabeth is that he's revealed to be a transvestite. His sexuality isn't really addressed. It's just that he is in a dress on DDE that is the basis of her rejection. I looked it up afterwards. There's no historical evidence that that person in history on Ju the elder Duke of Anjou Waas queer Waas feminine in any way, and it's such a big Platt point in the movie and so they're they're sort of the way in which God pours, I think, trying to modernize that the historical facts wind up just being confusing a lot of the time, especially as it relates to clearness.

spk_0:   26:55
Yeah, I mean, it's very confusing. I think you know what they have done in the script and in the movie has sort of present thes ideals of, uh, you know, that queer people existed that sex happened between Elizabeth and other people with the movie doesn't actually explore it in any way. It's just like, Oh, there were queer people. So let's put one in a dress and let's insinuate that the other one might be bisexual,

spk_1:   27:18
right? It's also the sex with Elizabeth. I had a lot of logistical questions, so I don't think that they would have been having penetrative sex. The movie is like, kind of it's kind of coy about what it thinks is going on between Dudley and Elizabeth in a way that's also confusing where it's like they're fucking but like she's not gonna get their fucking He's sleeping with her every night. Everybody in court knows, and she's not gonna get pregnant, and nobody's gonna ask her about the chance of pregnancy. I don't know I mean,

spk_0:   27:54
there is one scene where Lord Attenborough says to Lady Cat, who's played by Emily Mortimer, that he wants to see her sheets every morning. So I think this scene sort of implies to your point that they might not have had penetrative sex, or then he would know that she wasn't a virgin. But again, it's just like it's it's, we're told that and then there's no follow through,

spk_1:   28:16
right? And I think that's also I think, why it's hard to read the movie a sexy because the sex itself was so confusing.

spk_0:   28:24
I did want to bring up one thing before we put the Vincent Cassel on juice. A plot to the T to Bad. Yes, So Anne Hathaway, another actress we like who is a huge fan of acting, and actors actually excited that scene where Elizabeth's played by Cape goes and find on Julian address and ride as she sort of discovers him, and she's selling him that I you know, I still have affection for you, but obviously I'm not gonna marry you. She sort of does this no sniffs, which is one of a lot of actorly gestures that Kate, who's known for her gestures does in the movie. And this is one of the things why I why I

spk_1:   29:03
love her. I was waiting for you to get to that. How much you love the gestures.

spk_0:   29:07
I love the jesters, but also on Hathaway loves the gesture because this one, she says, and this is a direct quote. Cate Blanchett and Lizard has changed my life. There's a scene where she does this little no Smith and I swear to God I spent the 1st 6 years of my own camera career trying to reproduce it. I never succeeded. People kept saying, Do you need a tissue?

spk_1:   29:30
Sweet? And the thing was, an as opposed to Kate, is that Ann's face? And this is something that I love about views is that you really don't have control. You don't have control of what your face is going to be like on camera and spaces. So, like full of large features. She has huge eyes, huge mouth and, like I tiny little face to fit all of these large features on If she makes the slightest move, you're like, I think, whereas Kate looks very marble esque, maybe would be the way to put it. She's very statuesque. She sort of has a sculpted elegance to her face that makes gestural acting work. You know that even in close up, it works. Um, there's a lot of glance, like, I think, in this performance in terms of gesture. I think mostly about how much he's doing with the movement of her eyes in this movie, where she's constantly flitting back and forth and all over the place. And part of that is just because the staging is so incoherent. But part of that is also expressing some of the I think caged anxiety of this character. It's one of the more outwardly anxious performances that I think I've seen Kate give.

spk_0:   30:54
Yeah, and also like this was her third movie, So she I don't think at the time had really honed what you know the camera can do or what or how she sort of, like fits the frame. But she does give these gestures. Another gesture that I really loved is towards the end, where she's selling Lord Dudley off, and basically she says to him, You know, I'm not gonna kill you. You'll be kept alive to remind me that how close I came to danger. She gives that speech, and the movie is full of these speeches that she gets. There's a lot of them, which is probably why people, including me, love her because she's very good at delivering the speech. But what I love about this scene, particularly, is after she gives the speech and she sort of retreats and then the cameras on her and she's just looking. She turns left, turns right, and she's looking at the walls as if there is something in Dudley's wall that is interesting when there is nothing. And it's just a little bit of moment where you can see Elizabeth just interact on screen as a person. And before Shakar Kapur jumps to the next crazy scene, there is a moment that that's a moment. There were just watching Kay, the actor just hold the scream, and it's why I sort of is one of the reasons I love this performance. Is she

spk_1:   32:06
just Do you still love it? I mean,

spk_0:   32:08
it's the reason I fell in love with Kate. It was the first time I saw her, so I don't think that's gonna change. But I don't think I like the movie as much as I liked it at the time, and the only reason to see this movie is to just watch her, really. But also what I discovered about this with this time when I watched it a couple of days ago is that she is accent for long stretches of time in this film, which is was surprising to me because I remember this movie as the movie that was all about Elizabeth. So roll about Kate, where she's in every scene and she's not.

spk_1:   32:40
Yeah, this is one of the rare movies where I feel that cake is a bit dwarfed by the film itself. You know, one of the things that I think it's easy to respond to her as like an actor with is that she tends to be so dominant of the rest of the movie around her, and part of it in this film is that she's just not in every scene. Part of it is that the movie itself is doing so much. Part of it is that she's staged a lot of the time to be like this soul tiny figure within, like this large world around her though the movie doesn't really make that as clear as maybe it could have been auras, intentional as it could have been. But it winds up being a film where she's sort of in and out a lot, and you sort of feel that a bit, I think, in the performance itself, where she is stringing together big scenes from like a relatively disempowered place within the movie, like, structurally, that the movie itself is not giving her as much space to build the story across an entire landscape.

spk_0:   33:50
Yeah, one of the things I noticed, and maybe this is what you're saying is that it's a collection of scenes as opposed to a story, totally. And she does have a lot of scenes where the cameras on her and she's delivering speeches. And, ofcourse, she delivers all these peaches very well, like one of the scenes where she gathers the cardinals all around her. And this is the first time that Elizabeth is introducing the concept of the Church of England, and she has both Catholic and Protestant cardinals air bishops. And then she has to sort of maneuver that, and she delivered the speech. But then also, she has to make fun of herself as a woman. And I I like that scene. I saw that scene to your point. It's a scene that tells a story in itself because she had to deliver the speech and she also has to make fun of herself, but also has to sort of get somewhere by the end of the scene. And it's one of the scenes that really the performance really work and pop for me. In other scenes, she's just looking straight at the camera and delivering lines that are memorable. But maybe it doesn't build to a coherent story.

spk_1:   34:59
I agree. I also think that she doesn't register as well in the early scenes where she's playing very girlish Lee. Part of it is the writing, and part of it is because so much of those scenes is dependent on setting up this romance that doesn't totally play for the rest of the movie. You know what I mean? So she's sort of trapped in these very, um, corny. He's very corny scenes, uh, in which she's trying to get across the innocence of the character in a way that is, she's sort of left on a wrong foot, maybe.

spk_0:   35:35
Yeah. So another thing that I wanted to talk about is that smooth. Be There is a lot of times when the dialogue is all about how Elizabeth is a woman, you know, like Richard Adan, Borough tells her. But you're about a woman. And then she tells the cardinals, How can I persuade you? I am but a woman, And then in the end, she's like, I am the Virgin Queen,

spk_1:   35:59
for God's sake. You are still my Elizabeth, not your Elizabeth. I am no man's Elizabeth. If you think you are sticking, I will have one mistress here. You know, it's funny because everything is so terrible. Now you forget how long the culture wars have been going on. But yes, this is like a very in that sense of very contemporary movie, because I don't think any script writer working today would be able to resist the many on the nose hammer down how womanly you her experience is and what it means to be a woman in the state of power and the sort of political significance of Elizabeth's womanhood. But it is as it would be if it were made today corny. It's a little corny.

spk_0:   36:55
It's very corny. And it's one of the things that it completely didn't work for me. Everything. They even, you know, they even play a little bit like comedy.

spk_1:   37:04
Yeah, and it's funny because I think okay seems to avoid rules that, like force her to be in the position where she has to say that she's a woman or that she is making a statement about what it is to be a woman in her performances. It seems actually surprising, because I think a lot of I think a lot of, um, strong actors do tend to feel later in their career like they have to state what it is that they've been doing the whole time, you know, Whereas I think Kate has pulled back a lot from that, as she has, like, matured as a performer,

spk_0:   37:45
maybe she just hated saying these lines so much that she never played that part again.

spk_1:   37:51
Rewrite a bit. Yeah,

spk_0:   37:54
those scenes plays comedy, but is this movie camp? Is it camping off

spk_1:   38:01
its camp in the sense it's camping this on Tagi and Sense, where it's a movie that's taking itself seriously and the seriousness is what makes it silly, but it's not. It's not satisfyingly so. I would say, Like while I was watching, I was remembering a great favorite of both yours and mine. Queen Margot. Yes, well, we should have a whole podcast series about just Queen Margot. It's historical movie that is both extremely sexy. Extreme. Walt not just built too many things all at once. Violent, very violent. So hot, so historically bizarre, Protestant, Catholic, sexy, fun, then murders just like a total bloodbath in love with, like so many bodily fluids on dirt and dirt. Just dirty, horny Royals, maybe

spk_0:   38:58
kapoor. I mean, Markham and Margo came out about five or six years before in business, so maybe Kapoor was inspired by it. But just because, you know, there is a difference between making a movie right, French royalty and British royalty, you could've just maybe go all the way

spk_1:   39:12
right. But I think Queen Margot is effective camp, you know, it's taken himself seriously, but it's giving you a lot to work with. Whereas this is taking itself seriously but not sticking the landing. And so it's sort of it zigzags between being like incoherently serious and then amusingly serious and then intentionally amusing in an awkward way.

spk_0:   39:38
Yeah, I mean, I think the campy moments are the moments where it plays of Elizabeth. As you know, a breaded objectifies Elizabeth where you know, it's all about the wing until about face. It's all about so those seems sort of work a little bit, but the rest of it, the tone of it, is not camping.

spk_1:   39:59
Certainly the scene where she fucks and then wakes up the next morning with curly hair is camp That's wild. That is maybe the thing that I will walk away. That's the biggest mystery of the whole movie for me. Like I just want to know what happened. I even looked it up afterwards. Part of it, apparently, historically, is that Elizabeth had smallpox on DSO, was severely scarred as a result of smallpox and so struggled to grow her hair out. But that is not a part of the booth does not get cured of smallpox. Over the course of fucking Josefine, she just wakes up with fucked up hair.

spk_0:   40:37
Yeah, this film was in sort of the context of Kate's career, so this was her international break out, and it was probably the first time many people like me saw her. And I think that's why she was so ecstatically review to me because, you know, it was a big performance in a big movie where she is the, you know, plays the title character. Even if she is not in a lot of the movie, she still sort of The movie is about her. She's the focus. She's the

spk_1:   41:10
focus of every scene, including the scene that she's not in.

spk_0:   41:13
Yeah, I'm sort of the that. I think that's the reason for this sort of amazing reviews. She got like every review I tried to reach, even the ones that didn't like the movie. We're all about how great black lives.

spk_1:   41:27
I have a theory about why she's very well reviewed in this movie, which is we were talking about some of the other portrait ce of Elizabeth that had been made into films from the private lives of Elizabeth and Essex, which is a personal favorite of mine. Murtada reminded me of the Glenda Jackson version, visited our yes in the seventies, and honestly, I think part of it is just that there hadn't been an Elizabeth, maybe for a while. I think anybody could have been Elizabeth been halfway decent in the movie and would have gotten ecstatic reviews. It's like if, as if Macbeth was only allowed to be performed every 30 years, of course, you're gonna review Macbeth like as if they were the greatest actor of all time. So I feel like just getting cast in the movie was the guarantee that she was going to be well reviewed. I think it's a good I think it's still a fine performance. It's not my favorite of Cates, but I think no matter what she did, she would have been received. Well,

spk_0:   42:27
I think this if I had seen the movie for the first time, too. You know this week like I did it would not rank among the top performances, but it's still this movie for people who love Kate. It's the first time they sold her. It's like, sort of like at the time it was this, like, Who's this? And you know, that sort of feeling of Who's this, you know, stays with you even though I think she has given many, many, much better performance.

spk_1:   42:54
You bought your stocks early. You were like you were like, it's 1955 I'm putting my money. And IBM? Yes. You know, like you were on the train as the train was leaving the station. Sure,

spk_0:   43:08
Woz. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it proved, you know, the movie. Sort of like not only did you get reviewed, but the movie itself made a lot of money. It made almost $30 million. You know, at the time it got all these awards, it was nominated for seven Oscars, which is crazy to think about this movie getting Oscar. So it basically got best film makeup, cinematography, costumes, production, design score on a course for Kate.

spk_1:   43:34
I can see it for maybe definitely from makeup. I think the makeup in this film is phenomenal. Look, I think they do a really, really brilliant job with just making her face so pale, but without it seeming like she's wearing makeup, I think like the work that they did bleaching her eyebrows, spectacular costumes. I

spk_0:   44:01
want to just say that Jenny Scherick or who did the makeup actually won the Oscar. So this was the only Oscar 81 So, to your point, she deserved to win And also one of the funny anecdotes about that is that she gave a very Kate centric acceptance speech. She was on stage at the Oscars, and people can go watch this for maybe less than two minutes, like a minute. But she mentioned Kate's name five times in that 11 minute, which is like stalker. But, you know, I feel it because I would

spk_1:   44:31
thank you very much. I really enjoyed on Kate. This is because of

spk_0:   44:36
you. Really. Kate looks so wonderful as our Queen Elizabeth and the way she wore the hair and makeup that we applied for her. You do this on Kate for cake lunches,

spk_1:   44:53
but let's talk about the costume. Yeah, let's talk about the costumes. I I'm glad I was clapping just now, thinking about how much I hate him.

spk_0:   45:03
Strangely unmemorable. I can't remember any cost to mix that, maybe the suit of pain dress she wears at the beginning of the movie, and that's just because it's the first time you see her.

spk_1:   45:14
I knew we were gonna be talking about the costume, so I tried to keep an eye on them and then very quickly learned that I should be trying to keep my eyes off. Um, many are very, very ugly shape, texture of fabric. Um, the colors chosen. There's not a coherent story that's being told by, like what people are wearing. I think there's the final costume that Elizabeth wears actually becomes. The Virgin Queen is probably the best costume to be in the film, but there's so much that is so poorly designed,

spk_0:   45:53
and that costume would have probably been based on, you know, no importance of Elizabeth. So that's probably why it's the one that looks good.

spk_1:   46:00
Yeah, so many are so ugly. Well, just And it was also that while I was watching, I was under the mistaken impression that these costumes were done by our dear friend Sandy. Sandy Powell. And I just was watching, thinking, Did she hate this movie? Why was she why would you do this? But then, of course, it's not Sandy Powell.

spk_0:   46:21
Alexandria burned.

spk_1:   46:23
And yes, I just think when I think of like the great uh, period costume designers, so much more is done with intention regarding how these costumes were supposed to reflect the character's journey and also how they're just frankly supposed to be part of the reason you go to the movies to see Pretty complex, not even pretty, but to see lavishness. Whereas this was a holiness, Yeah,

spk_0:   46:55
yeah, I agree with you. But Sandy Powell actually won the Oscar that year. Not for this, obviously, but for the other ill is a beast in movie Shakespeare in Love, which sort of started the actress sexual wars of Cade versus Glennis, which I think lasted for many years, at least for me and in my mind. And I'll tell you, I wasn't I was living in Khartoum. I was not. I could not watch the Oscars except maybe the next day or whatever. And I didn't watch this ceremony. But I remember reading in Time magazine. I still remember that. And this was a few months after I've seen the movie that Kate was the favorite to win the Oscar, which, when you go back and look at sort of the trajectory of that Oscar season now is old, what we know of it. She was really not. By the time we got to the ceremony, even though she won that she won the Golden Globe. But so did Glennis because they have two categories. But then when it's long, everything else, including the Oscar and I blame that Time magazine prognosticator for the fact that I was so disappointed that jaded and win, that I held a grudge against Ms Paltrow for maybe decades until Kate one for Blue Jasmine and then I was like, Okay, fine.

spk_1:   48:08
I love Glennis. I will always love Glennon, I think, when it has almost always been not just good and movies, but surprisingly so. So she gives me two pleasures at once the pleasure of being good in the pleasure of surprising me that she's good. And I think Shakespeare in love benefits from being just in general, a more coherent movie. It's a much sillier movie. You can make whatever argument you would want to make about what the said overall quality of the film or the writing is. I personally find it very fun. It's also obsessed with how hot Joseph finds is in a way that is completely baffling to me. I just can't get over it. Who was

spk_0:   48:49
the casting director in the late nineties who loved Josefine so much?

spk_1:   48:53
Was it just that, like rap, Rafe fines was priced too high. Do you think the post English patient he was like My quote is going up by a full decimal point. Everyone was like, Let's get his poor brother. Which

spk_0:   49:06
is funny because the movie that Kate did before this was Oscar and listen, the Wizard going back to the Oscars. So the nominees besides Gwen It and Kate, where? Meryl Streep, as always, for one true thing, that was that year. Emily Watson, Hilary and Jackie and Fernanda Montenegro for Central Station. So is your village for Glennis?

spk_1:   49:27
I think that so I haven't seen Hilary and Jackie or Central Station. So this is very unfair because, who knows? Maybe they would be my picks. I wouldn't give it to Merrill, though. I love once your thing because she has so many I like have to reserve in my mind a place for Merrill toe win like Six socks, Oscar's in the eighties. And that means, I guess, when it is my pick, I would definitely pick Gwen. It's over, Kate.

spk_0:   49:52
I will definitely give it to Kay because of just all the years that I thought that she should have won for this performance and you know, okay. Having three Oscars would be great, but maybe she wouldn't win for The Aviator if she had worked for this.

spk_1:   50:06
And I prefer him in Aviator. I do want to bring up the great Oscar rivalry that no one talks about that year, which is Kate as Elizabeth and her future arrival in our beloved film Notes on a scandal. Judi Dench as Elizabeth, the first in the same same year. Different categories. Elizabeth The First. Judi Dench played Elizabeth, the first in Shakespeare in Love, Uh, and won the Oscar. So Kate, twice a loser, twice a loser in 1998. Cate Blanchett,

spk_0:   50:44
although Elizabeth's The First Gives Me gives us one of my favorite Oscar intros ever. Because Whoopi Goldberg came out that year, she was the host of the Oscar. She came out dresses. Elizabeth the first Judy Okay, who knew She? Who knew she was emulating one of them? Good

spk_1:   51:01
evening, loyal subjects. I am the African Queen. Some of you may know me as the Virgin Queen, but I can't imagine who you're right that the best performance as Elizabeth the first that year Woz will be gold Goldberg, so thrice a loser Kay planted.

spk_0:   51:22
So go watch that will

spk_1:   51:23
be is the all time best Oscar host. There's no one like her. No. One better?

spk_0:   51:28
Yes, one last thing I want to say about the Oscars. This was Cates. First time of the Oscars. You would think that is. She has been so many times as a nominee, and some many times also is just presenter. So somebody who follows the Oscars on loves the Oscar fashion. That Oscar dress remains one of her most impactful moment. She wore a Do Your Dress by John Galliano that what had butterflies was an open back. It was beautiful. And so when I was, like trying to find information about this dress, I found that that it was later sold just a few weeks after the Oscars at a Christie's auction for $15,000. So somebody

spk_1:   52:10
to steal, that's a steal. 15,000. Yeah, it's pretty together. That's pretty good.

spk_0:   52:15
So who is the lucky person who owns that Oscar dress?

spk_1:   52:19
Glenn. It's Glenn. It's definitely stole a lot that you're Let's not forget that Gwen it's stole her role in Shakespeare in love from Winona Ryder's coffee table.

spk_0:   52:31
Yes, yes, Gwen, this is a lethal assassin. Um, so do you want to say anything more about Elizabeth Taylor?

spk_1:   52:42
My last thought on Elizabeth is that, as in almost all movies about Royals, I do want to draw attention to the ladies and waiting. Ah, ladies in waiting One of the greatest concepts history has ever given us. And the ladies in waiting, as we mentioned earlier in the podcast, are played by Emily Mortimer and Kelly MacDonald. And they are so cute, so cute little babies. And I feel like something that we didn't talk about with Kate is that she is such a baby in this movie is very a little fun She

spk_0:   53:17
has. She even has her old teeth before Hollywood fixed them for

spk_1:   53:21
she has her old teeth. She is just glowing with 26 year old loveliness. Um, and it's very it's very sweet in this movie, as crazy as it is to see so many people who have become institutions in their own right in their own versions of what that means, whether it's Kelly MacDonald on television or Emily Mortimer Aryan like weird independent films.

spk_0:   53:46
Daniel Greg, who has a

spk_1:   53:48
Mr Barnes? Yes, James Bond himself is Theseus, servants of the pope in this movie, and it is very sweet to see all of their precious little baby Muppets faces.

spk_0:   53:59
They were all so young. And I have to say, like if we go back to sort of like If Kate had won the Oscar that year as I so wanted her, maybe she would not have had the career that she had. Because sometimes when you reach these highs so early in your career, you sort of lose your drive. I don't know that she would have lost it, but maybe it wouldn't have been as interesting a career. No, because I know you love witness. But I think when it has a much less interesting career because of her Oscar win,

spk_1:   54:32
well, when it became very interested in other things, I mean, Gwyneth now has goop. We can talk about group on a later podcast. But yes, I would say her interest in acting just precipitously dropped following her. Ask her win.

spk_0:   54:49
So I want to ask you a few questions about Kate. So you already told us that the first time you so Kate Waas and

spk_1:   54:55
Lord of the Rings rings.

spk_0:   54:57
So what is your favorite cake performance.

spk_1:   55:01
Oh, it's Carol. We all know it's Carol. It's gotta be Carol. If there's nothing that's even close, it's so good. It's such a great movie. The greatness of the movie then gets absorbed until, like my memory of Kate's performance. And so clearly that's my favorite. And it's so she's doing sort of in that movie. I think, like a thesis on her own work in a way that's really interesting and in a lot of ways it does just feel like the culmination of her career. I think it would be crazy to me to say anything but Carol, including Blue Jazz Hands. Yes,

spk_0:   55:34
When do you think Kate was underrated? Underrated. She's often accused of being overweight

spk_1:   55:42
is quite overrated. I mean, it would be hard. It would be hard to not be overrated, given how highly she is, right, underrated. I don't think this is exactly an underrated performance, because I think that for anybody who saw this movie and her performance in it, it is phenomenal and she's phenomenal in it, and it was she was recognized and Oscar nominated as such, but Cape Lynch it and I'm not theirs to me one of the most probably the most underrated performance of her career in that I just think she's so magnetic in it and such fascinating energy with regards to gender in a way that's very rarely brought up in reviews of her work but is very much a feature of her work, including an Elizabeth on. I Just Think That It brings together in a lot of really surprising ways her gestural qualities as a performer and her tendency to be a very full body, full body physical performer, which is something that in Elizabeth I think she doesn't have the opportunity to do to the degree that you know she does in later films. It doesn't give her enough space in the editing, I would say to sort of create a character with her whole body the way that she would in later films, and with directors like Todd Hands, who really understand how tow howto work with her. But I think that's for me. One of her very best on one of her least seen.

spk_0:   57:16
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you and I think maybe to your point, that movie does not come as much when people talk about her is because not many people have seen it. Unfortunately. So who is your favorite Kate scene partner?

spk_1:   57:28
Who? Great question. I'll avoid saying Rooney, Mara, because we shouldn't talk too much about Carol. I think in that case, clearly her best scene partner is Judy. Dutch Candle Elizabeth to Elizabeth Elizabeth. Ex Elizabeth Notes on a scandal. Judi Dench. No one's been better opposite Kate. No one has acted Kate off the screen in the same way. Judy, I love you. I love your girl.

spk_0:   57:55
You have to come back in the opposite where we talk about notes on a scandal.

spk_1:   57:59
Nothing would please me more.

spk_0:   58:01
So is there anybody you would like to see her work with?

spk_1:   58:04
As a director? I think I'd like to see Kate work with, um, like a bum Jin Ho type filmmaker, somebody who is open to more, uh, almost archetypal but like letting actors use their idiosyncrasies, I think, is one of his great skills as a director and letting people build distinct performances within the same movie. And then managing the tone of the film to include different textures and performances is a rare skill on a director, and I think that she's somebody who, at this stage of her career, is capable of doing so much more than what most films ask for that I think it would be good for her toe. Have somebody as a director who is going to just, like, let her go wild and he's kind of chosen the other I see Cheek boned. Yes, he's chosen Tilda to be that person, but I think that he would do well to have Kate.

spk_0:   59:14
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to see that. And this, Finally, is there

spk_1:   59:18
something

spk_0:   59:18
in the cultural perception of Kate that you like, or something that you're annoyed by?

spk_1:   59:24
Typically, Kate is somebody for me who I you'll, uh, rubbed the wrong way a little bit by her, Um, or by maybe by like, cultural perception of her. It's like similar to Daniel Day Lewis, where she's somebody who was held up as being sort of the epitome of acting in a way that I think just inherently, I'll feel sort of intimate, antagonistic about which is not necessarily fair to her. I don't think that she's asking for that exactly. Although sometimes she is, uh,

spk_0:   1:0:01
I'm gonna end this with a quote from Brenda Blethyn, who gave this quote at the Golden Globes when Kate, one for Elizabeth and Brenda Waas at the Golden Look because she was nominated for little voice. And here is what she said, which, I think, sort of in cap encapsulate what maybe we both feel about this movie or a T least what I feel, she said. I only went to see Elizabeth's because of Cate Blanchett. I thought you was absolutely fabulous, and I was delighted She won. I think she's a fabulous actress. I'm not altogether sure about the film, but I did enjoy primarily because of her. She's

spk_1:   1:0:36
fantastic. She was fantastic. Thank you

spk_0:   1:0:40
so much. Stay for coming on the podcast. And before we go, can you tell our listeners where they can find you?

spk_1:   1:0:47
I have a tendency to write film reviews in The New York Times almost every week. I freelance for them, but if you are working at a media organization or in specifically nonfiction television, my full time work is as a union organizer for the Writers Guild. So if you have an interest in organizing a union confined me on Twitter. AT T M. I Bugbee

spk_0:   1:1:10
and you can find me on Twitter at m E Underscored says and followed hot pass at Sunday's escape. And until next time, thank you for listening.