spk_0:   0:00
What do you do on Sunday?

spk_1:   0:02
Way talked about Cate Blanchett, the actors, costumes, the awards, but mostly Blanchard of it all. I'm not acting thing is a mother. You Erica. This is Sunday's escaped and I'm your host or tod ay hello and welcome to a new episode of Sunday's escaped. This is your host more toddle fuck. And today we are discussing the 2008 David Fincher film The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, which starred Kate alongside Brad Pitt to Raja P. Henson, Tilda Swinton and several other people. It's a stacked cast. We'll get to it. But first, let me introduce my partner today, our guest host, writer and critic Andrew Kendall.

spk_0:   1:04
I thank you for having me.

spk_1:   1:08
You're very welcome. I really wanted you to come on this particular episode because I remember you really like Benjamin Button.

spk_0:   1:17
I do one of the few people. I mean, it's it's other word with right. I don't mean I don't think you hate it, but it's not remembered very fondly.

spk_1:   1:28
No, it's kind of really for a garden in the culture. I think people who remember it remember it for things like that's what I remember it for just how great Kate and Brad look together. Um, in those scenes where there meeting in the middle or

spk_0:   1:44
it if one of the movies have got a ton of Oscar nominations and then sort of choked the end because it was, like, started like this big front runner. And then nothing really happened the day and almost oddly like the Aviator. Yeah, David. Another kid movie? Yeah, The Aviator. One

spk_1:   2:04
more Oscars than Benjamin Button. Yeah, but nothing major, though. Well, Kate, it's pretty Major Andrew. She wants.

spk_0:   2:12
Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I mean, not enough. Not enough. Not enough, mate. You're not, you know, Major. But I'm getting ahead of myself because I can't does remind me of for aviator working this which I'll get to later on.

spk_1:   2:23
Okay, cool. I'm excited to hear that before we dig in into Let's just set up the movie. So the movie is based on an F. Scott Fitzgerald story. It tells the story of Benjamin Button, who's a man born right off at the end of the first World war in 1918 1919 and he is born very old at the end of his time. and starts aging backwards. And so the movie is about this. If this aging backwards and its effect on those around him, which include Taraji P. Henson, who plays his adoptive mother, his his father, once he sees his grotesque older person body puts him outside an old people's home that is run by the character played by Taraji P. Henson. There he meets a lot of older people, so he grows up around these older people. One of them is this woman who befriend heebie friends, and her granddaughter is just a few years younger than him. So of course, she looks like a normal child. That's Daisy, and that's Kate's character. And then the story takes us throughout, basically their whole life. So we see Benjamin growing up or growing younger and Daisy growing older until they meet in the middle and until death, almost for both of them, because the framing device is very old. Kate telling her daughter, played by Julia Ormond. This story Did I miss anything in this and Rory this

spk_0:   3:58
coming? No, I think that's about it. I'm glad you mentioned the framing device so because it's an interesting idea, I think, in the film because I mean, it's called Benjamin Button. So it's about him, obviously. But the film has this interesting device of framing it through Kit dying on her daughter in a deathbed. Who we learned later on is Benjamin's daughter. But even before we learn about him, there's this, I think, very thoughtful sort of rumination on Children and their parents like you. From before we hear Benjamin's name, we have Julia Ormond, like, you know, talking about, you know, wanted to say goodbye to her. It's It's It's weirdly moving in a way and away from the film with art of different Is that sort of like, you know, flashback movie going through the World War Two. But it has so much more going on than just wrap it looking old and then young, innit?

spk_1:   4:53
Yeah, and surprisingly, he is a very passive character. He's the one who just basically grows younger, but kind and not a lot happens to him. It's always the people around him who, Dr the Narrative Mainly Daisy, played by Kate, but also, you know, when he goes and works in a tugboat. And there you meet Jared Harris. Is this boozy boat captain who likes the party and goes to whorehouses. And And he's the one who's like taking Benjamin along with him on these adventures, as opposed to Benjamin having any aptitude to start anything.

spk_0:   5:36
One thing I remember really clearly when the movie came out was the discourse around just being David Venture version of Forrest Gump and re watching it again. I work. I rotted yesterday, but I thought, coincidentally, before you walk into the podcast two weeks ago on, I don't think it's a fair comparison. Although, like I mean, other than being about somebody growing up, it's not really that similar. Yeah, this one

spk_1:   6:06
is not concerned with history at all. So it's just about Benjamin. That's one difference. But what other difference did you see?

spk_0:   6:17
I think I mean, that being mean one in the fact that ultimately think Benjamin Button, it's such a It's such a small story. Ultimately, it's really just about people. I mean, it really doesn't care about history to that large extent. Three just a boat, the way that people relate to each other on when you get like the very end of the clothes generation, and he talks about the people he's met and kid being the last person we see on screen. Hot ticket It's all very much about just like very small human emotions. Rather than anything significant, it could have been set like anywhere. It didn't have to be set in mid 20th century America really could have happened anywhere other than, of course, the film part of frames slightly around the, um, Hurricane Katrina. Katrina.

spk_1:   7:07
Yeah, I mean, the framing device takes place. Ask greenies, hitting your leans because most of the movie takes place in New Orleans. But to your point, and this is, I think, one of the minuses against the film. I do not really see a distinct sense of place like it tells me this is in your name, that I'm sure they shot in New Orleans. But I don't really see or feel New Orleans in the movie. It could have really been set anywhere, and it's not really concerned with place or time at all is just concerned with its characters.

spk_0:   7:39
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's a fair. It's a fair point,

spk_1:   7:42
It seems. We started with the framing device, one of the things that is also taking a minus against this movie, and I could see the minus is the heavy old age makeup. Okay, that's two years physically live under in the framing device.

spk_0:   7:58
I don't mind the makeup because it reminds me of my favorite movie, The English Patient, which is also about with Rough Find Ethan. Terrible. Terrible makeover. Just have you make up. She doesn't look like her, but I don't think the makeup is bad. I do things that didn't make a little bit too much, though, because she's not that old when the movie started. So it's like, I mean, I don't think a woman that it would look that old. They never explain why she's ill. So it just it's sort of like, Why does she look for terrible? Yeah, I mean,

spk_1:   8:30
I don't know how old she is supposed

spk_0:   8:31
to be. She's only the owners younger and remember her when they say she was born. They said in the movement for gotten. But but she's not that old.

spk_1:   8:43
If Katrina, we know when Katrina Waas and she in the story she's about, she says she's 43 when Benjamin is 49 so she's six years younger, so that's 1924 25. So she's

spk_0:   8:57
not that old.

spk_1:   8:57
The makeup makes her look 160 years old.

spk_0:   9:01
Yeah, Yeah, she looks really old. She looked through in the old on one thing you mentioned in your notes. That's good, though, is kits Old voice is really good.

spk_1:   9:10
Yeah. Yeah. People got so bogged down by the admittedly too much makeup job, too, and forgot the expert voice work F K plan shit as old Daisy because she is able to do not just a perfect impeccable accent old her accent work is always perfect, but also that old Lil And you hear her, You know, she's from New Orleans and you know, she's very old. So that people

spk_0:   9:43
Yeah, that acting. I think you were talking about it in the episode photos. They're talking about kids vice acting, And I was thinking so much about her voice in this particular film. Also, because it's I mean, she really is an excellent voice doctor, like you think of like her work in Lord of the Rings. Oh, our work in the Aviator or Blue, just like the way that she says things are so so very evocative and in the film also like there's Even young Daisy. Old is the older days There's that there's that journey she's taking. You are not just with the makeup and how she looks, but all she songs like how court motions are reticent or open or Ernest. It's really good work she's doing here, which makes me always annoyed. I told. I think it's so easy to dismiss the performance of this. You know she's staying there reminding interest, but it's so much good work.

spk_1:   10:41
Yeah, and you're right. She just chart the whole story through her voice because there is makeup when she plays very young ballerina Daisy. Basically, they take away her wrinkles when she plays Daisy in her twenties and a script phase. Yeah, but also the voice work there. It's her voice she's playing Ah Yung Ahn Jin Ooh! And you can feel the excitement of a young person. And then, as she grows older, she keeps doing it. So it. I think it's maybe the biggest showcase ever for her voice work. Just because she had to play a person from like 22 I don't know. 90. Something like that heavily made up is an old person, and her face is scrubbed as a young person with the technology that Fincher employees in this movie. But the voice is all blanche. It's work,

spk_0:   11:30
I was thinking, cause in your notes you were talking about the fact that this is beside Lord of the Rings trilogy, probably her biggest box office it on, like walk with somebody who didn't know kids think if they saw her from this movie on, I was thinking a lot off. What's I think I'll try to place it in her filmography, and I was thinking that this performance reminds me most of her work has murdered Logue in Ripley in the When I think of kid Lunch and I don't think of her as like a non Jew knew or the romantic interest because she's always, I mean, I love her. But there's the idea that you different bro person on dhe. So we think of like you know, Galadriel, you know, ethereal and like beyond human or even Jasmine or Katharine Hepburn There not exactly like regular, everyday human beings there. There's something a little bit celestial about them, but, like with Daisy, Andi, like with MEREDITH or just regular girls, women going through life. Andi. She is able to do that, but I don't think people give her credit for It's almost too easy in a week. It's like, Oh, you know, kid match at playing a love interest in the movie like That's not much considering, you know? I mean, this is 26. This is like the year after she's done Bob Dylan on DDE. Queen Elizabeth like it seems like a step down a bit in terms of the role. But and I think that's maybe one of the reasons her work wasn't a celebrated. Yeah, like, I feel like if it was another actress who was not, like, really famous, it would have been like a role for them. Yeah, like the degree of difficulty seems less, but I think it's not really

spk_1:   13:23
I agree with you. I think she's not given enough credit for, for for the degree of difficulty of this part, because this part is not easy. Actually, Daisy has to do a lot more than Benjamin. Benjamin just has to grow younger days. He goes through a lot and things happen more to her. But begins. Cate Blanchett is Cate Blanchett and she has played so many other, bigger, better, more difficult part. So this part is not given its do because it's played by her. And I do want to want to dig a little deeper into Sort of like Is this? Does this movie really reflect her screen persona? There is Some of her screen persona is here, if you think of the glamour of Blue Jasmine building anyway, or the glamour of Carol, Even Elizabeth's glamorous Daisy is definitely a glamorous ballerina, so that part is there. But perhaps that's the only part that's reflected cause, usually to your point. She plays more cerebral characters and Daisy

spk_0:   14:24
very flighty. Yes, she is, She is. But I'm not. Not even in a bad way. I feel like the film is one of the reasons I like this movie so much as I find it very empathetic on Dhe. It's It's one in three. Then it's my favorite singer movie, which is maybe mildly controversial, like I mean, you don't think Fincher somebody you go to for empathy. He have other good qualities on DDE. One thing I think works for the film, even when it's very discursive, which is very often is that it's sort of like a director wrestling with his desire for empathy. But it but also his information towards remoteness begin the movie a thoughtful, sometimes very remote. It's not sentimental in the way you think you're something being warm and sentimental, but it's empathetic and called like the same time. There's this distance that you mentioned, like the fact that Benjamin is a very passive character. So it's like he is almost like on the outside, looking in any people, living life normally. And then the film is doing all of the things about empathy for by the end of the film, when he turns into a child on DDE, they has the final scene with him, and she's much older. I feel like it's like he finally understood, maybe howto see people to get in, sort of in a way, yeah, so I. So I find a way that, like Davy like occur. She's she sort of intrigued by him and the threat of morbid way, and then she grows to understand him a bit more. I think Kid, other really good job in Fincher helped her off course in not sort of sanitizing her less savory qualities and his also We're talking about Kate here like she could be a bit slight in a bit judgmental, but you sort of get it because Benjamin is also kind of dull. Sometimes.

spk_1:   16:26
Yeah, he is. And that's sort of why she was not that into him at the beginning, because her life was just much more exciting than this old dude. But when you were talking about the later part of the movie, when Benjamin is much younger than her and she and she is and he starts coming back into her life Dozer, my favorite parts of Kate's performance in this movie I think she gives them gravitas, and she gives Daisy warmth that she didn't have in the part where she was flighty. And that and that sort of warms is a very good way for her to chart the growth of this character of this woman from that flight, a ballerina to this mother and older person who is who knows Maur more than Benjamin because she's been through Maur life than Benjamin. Even so, he is. He is growing younger, but she's been through more life and more experiences, and that's my favorite part of the performance.

spk_0:   17:33
That's true. That's definitely true. Like whenever I watch this movie, I like I said, It is my favorite singer movie and like like I can recognize all the things that don't really start to work in theory, but when I watch it and then it comes to that scene in the nursing home when he has dementia. But he's a child on dhe. He can't remember her, and I just just it's not even the incident. It's It's It's okay, Please it, Yeah, I think I mentioned earlier that it reminds like in addition to MEREDITH Logue, it reminds me of her Katherine Hepburn, because I couldn't see Katharine Hepburn playing that character. The older Daisy moves, you know, very maternal and warm, but still very direct. It's really very much dis art off. Weird Trick. She's playing because I think one thing persons who don't like the movie are kind of right about is that it's a weird dynamic, the the backward, aging thing. So like he looks like an old person. And she was a child. In one of the early scenes when l signing clear stays on it, it's obviously visually creepy, her grandma very clear yet very creepy. And then the end. You know, she's an old woman and he's a boy with no longer Brad Pitt. And it's like this is all so creepy. And she needs to sell the fact that, you know Benjamin is both lover and also, in some ways, like a child. No, on Dhe. It's a very delicate balance. She's threading there, which I think she ends up achieving.

spk_1:   19:08
She does, she does. And she to your point. Those scenes with her are much less creepy because of the performance. And I think I want to quote a O. Scott in The New York Times who I think gets that what we were talking about here. And he says, And I quote. But the movie's emotional center of gravity, the character who struggles and changes and feels, is Daisy, played by Miss Blanche. It from in Pets, You it's on. Joe knew, too. Near Ghost is an almost otherwordly mixture off ho tour and heat,

spk_0:   19:36
so because the movie's not that long, it's two hour 40. But David doesn't really appear properly until 1 20 or something. Yeah, it's sort of like the first half. Toraji Queen is the emotional center. Yeah, And then when serology leaves movie Dave the ends of part of taking their ends, there's a bit of defender where neither Taraji or Daisy stare, which I guess we'll talk about Charlie. Yeah, but it's really just ordered that to hand balancing off. And and maybe I mean, another reason why persons or sort of read different, like a warning because they weren't sure where to cliff it. You haven't you? Probably leading actress, but she's not on screen that much.

spk_1:   20:19
She's not. And if we want to talk about it, I think this is a good time to talk about, sort of why she wasn't awarded, even though the movie was an awards magnet and in the year at least four Oscars, it got the most nominations.

spk_0:   20:31
Yeah, she didn't even get a Golden Globe nomination. I remember at the time, thinking like what the hell? Like I mean, yeah, yeah, especially considering the chief should come off of this like awards hungry run from like 2003 when she got Golden Globe nomination for missing off all things which I like. So missing is a good movie chief. Very good in it. So it was missing the Aviator. There's no sign of scandal there. I'm not there. There is the Golden Age. And then this movie comes a huge hit on like nothing.

spk_1:   21:03
Yeah, the people who were just like now. And I think 11 reason is that which we talked about it, that she's playing the girl, right? Like people are not seeing the complexity of this part. And the other thing is what you just said, which is? She's absent for long stretches of time, like she doesn't really come into until an hour and 1/2 into a two hour 45 movie. Really? And then I think the biggest thing is just the old age makeup. People were really tearing

spk_0:   21:30
them. I mean, they're wrong, but it's fair. E. I mean, I'll get in the makeup just being not for it like it's a bad makeup. Is this too much makeup? It's too much, but I like those scenes like the makeup doesn't bother me because I like those scenes with her on her daughter and also like, there's I I think a lot about the ah persons of color in the movie because, of course, is in New Orleans. So of course they're black people around in the film start of tries to involve them. So, like if you notice all of the nurses in the scenes where she's on her deathbed are black women, then of course, Queen is there who sort of like a nurse caretaker for Benjamin Under is this? It's like, I mean, the scenes work. If I'd like, you know, the makeup is distracting you from the embassy, going on their phone like, I mean, just just watch the movie people. Yeah,

spk_1:   22:24
um and I really, You know, I'm glad you brought Toraji up as queen because I really love her and she's She gives a very warm performance.

spk_0:   22:32
She is really good in this movie. I'm so great. I was I mean, I've been the Terra CI fund like since she was in Baby Boy. Retirees like I mean, I have struggled with this woman from the bit part in something new. And like all of those movies, nobody on mainstream from critics watch. Yeah, and she's great. And I think this movie different Her breakthrough ultimate leg for, like, quite Hollywood ultimate. Yes, yes, Yeah, and that was a joke Kiss.

spk_1:   23:04
That's a good distinction for White Holly. Absolutely.

spk_0:   23:07
It is. Andi. I mean, like, I think a lot of like I mentioned the thing with the persons of color in the movie and how they're treated. And I think there's that scene that I always remember where fart earlier. Queenie dies on dhe. They go to her funeral. Daisy and Benjamin on Everyone in the church is black and they're all weeping on Daisy in Benjamin are there and they just don't know how to react emotionally. They're stone. I think about that thing a lot. Like I mean, like like what difference you're telling us here. Like what? How are we supposed to respond to this? And I think coming back to my previous find, it's just the idea that for a lot of the film, both Davin Benjamin just don't know how to express emotion. Really? Well, they're they're like, I mean, Daisy is still sort of mourning her dance career. That point on Benjamin is still not sure where he fits in oven, old looking young birth, nor vice versa. On DDE from the very first scene of the movie I mean, I think Taraji started injects some necessary light, and it's like she's there on the porch with Marcia on. They're talking about their flirtation on. It's one thing I like about the movie. It's like I said it very discursive, which isn't for everybody. But one thing I really appreciate is the way that you can sort of imagine each of these characters having their own life somewhere.

spk_1:   24:35
And she has very much industry was Marshall, and you see the relationship in the interplay like the script doesn't give them much to do, but they just exist well together. And you can chart that relationship and get its warms. And it's love and everything that's happening between those characters, just from how they exist in front of the camera together.

spk_0:   24:57
Yeah, I mean, one thing I'd say against the movie, even though I love it, is that with all of these great women in them, like there's no kid garages and there's no kid till the seed I remember before the movie mode. Like, of course, this is on the heels off till the winning the Oscar over Kitt more Michael Faith, and I'm thinking all the sea kit until in a movie? Nothing. Not literally. They don't. They don't. They never meet.

spk_1:   25:22
There is literally two seconds of Kate entourage together way. Yeah, Queenie is serving them lunch or dinner

spk_0:   25:30
yapping and being sorry to bomb tonight, Davy, Make it. You know, David thought it broke. Men's women fired? Yeah, which I think suggested there probably are scenes undercutting for it. We just didn't see Yeah, problems. I mean, it's a long movie. So fair. Yeah, but one thing

spk_1:   25:46
I wanted to talk about a little bit is that garage is great. She's very warm, and we love her. But is this character itself a modern version of the mammy archetype? Because it is right. It is. She is a caretaker. And while we do get her relationship with her man played by Marshall Ali and the feelings she has for Benjamin, her part is just there. So that she takes care of Benjamin and most of her scenes or just her asking him how he's doing and being a caretaker and nothing more.

spk_0:   26:22
I do think about that on DDE. I mean, there's always that potential with black female characters in some that are mostly white on one thing I think that makes me sort of resistant. And I mean, I think it might be the the direction in the movie Morrison descript itself, which, as you said sometime, I feel like the actors had shades to the script that aren't really there. But like I think off, I keep thinking of that for a scene which is introduced on Dhe. Like the movie has an idea off Queenie beyond Benjamin, which I appreciate so like when I mean those who haven't seen the movie and, like, what happened to you? So vengeance. No Apple agents dropped him on the um on the floor there of the nursing home leaves him on. Queenie and her husband, Mr Withers of it, are having a conversation on DDE Keys. If afterthought like you can you? Do you feel this like the bullion from this woman just talking the flirting with this guy she kind of likes and like, I feel like the movie recognizes her. If the person beyond him, even though we don't see a lot of it for like, for example, when they go to church, the Iran Andi, she's praying for a child that eventually comes like it's not the text off the film, but I feel like the film at least has an understanding off her as a person beyond this role president. Just you know her for being there to exist. Trim. Yeah, but I feel I mean, your criticisms are fares. I mean, but I think also doesn't mean anything. Why wasn't the his target mother wasn't was a black woman. I think about I thought about that when I first started moving 28. 20. Wait, like they're something he was trying to say. A boat, you know, blackness in New Orleans or like something about his father of the white person not being open toe, you know, deformity. Where is Queenie? As a black woman who was childless off that time was clearly more empathetic. Who was in charge with nursing Home is a great Yeah, Lainey

spk_1:   28:32
is, But she wouldn't she wouldn't think. Which is why I'm not sure that the movie's actually commenting about race at all. It'll see just haphazard on coincidences

spk_0:   28:45
and very much a fantasy. And then the other thing

spk_1:   28:47
is that I think you know too radical an Oscar nomination for this movie and this is the part

spk_0:   28:53
of our first. I'll keep seeing her first because that's this kind beer, only one copy and fingers.

spk_1:   28:58
But this is all the This is the type of part that black actors get awards for. Just for all the things that we were just talking about, we haven't talked about the technology, which I guess at the time of this movie release that de aging thing. Waas

spk_0:   29:15
wasn't a big deal.

spk_1:   29:16
It was a big deal.

spk_0:   29:17
Big deal. And was everybody around the world collectively gasp that scene where young Brock pictures of looking like some new ese Brad Pitt? Yeah, kid's door and she got when we got and it's like, Wow,

spk_1:   29:31
yeah, yeah, but I have to say it's one of the best, even though it was the first or one of

spk_0:   29:36
them, yes, to use it. It's a very good looking movie.

spk_1:   29:39
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you've seen the Irishman, but I'll tell you, Brad heavens, much better than Robert De Niro does. So there you have it.

spk_0:   29:48
Well, I mean,

spk_1:   29:49
but I think this is a plus for Fincher, so we gave him a couple of minuses. So technology David Fincher, you get a plus.

spk_0:   30:08
I just remember through the entire frozen in serious being so annoyed that Slumdog Millionaire was winning everything like it took me. I carried that chip on my shoulder because I don't even like from that morning there on like, I didn't like that Fidel intellectual years ago. So, like it was like my nemesis. It was my $1,000,000 baby. Again, it was like a relief. It was like relitigating the aviator loo thing, which was the first year that really focus on the Oscar for like, four years later, my kids watch it again in a movie with all of these technical nuts, just like losing them left and right. Like hold it if movie to do with the Oscar for best costumes.

spk_1:   30:52
Yeah, the costumes are very good. And to die for who? Oh, the dust, It's one, right? Yeah,

spk_0:   30:58
I think it also lost from music, which I thought it was definitely gonna win for. I mean, I do like it. I do like a r. Rahman's music because of my body would face when I was younger. But yeah, this is probably my fear for its core a D plus probably maybe, Yeah, the music is very good, although I don't know

spk_1:   31:20
where who I was rooting for that year. I think I was rooting for milk, not for music, but just yet. But I wanted to ask you, since you really like this movie and the thing that I really could not reconcile with this movie is that this tale of the man who ages backwards it's sort of a toll tail. It's something that you know you're grandmother or grandfather will tell you when you were really young and put you, you know, to sleep, telling you this fast story that is now a short story that's also about things that really might not happen. But as a child, you accept them. But then the filmmaking and the storytelling is this sort of stately Dr Jo Fargo like epic

spk_0:   32:11
treatment. It's Yeah, it's not the filmmaking of not fantastical, therefore making very straightforward and realist. Yeah, so I found that

spk_1:   32:19
this connect just I think that's the main reason why I don't love. This movie is like the story should have been more. The filmmaking should have been a ce fantastical. It's the story, and you have actors there who can give you that.

spk_0:   32:34
It is true that the film like I mean, the central the movie start before Benjamin with the tale of this guy, Mr Gandhi. Yeah, yeah, who creates the club that moves backwards, which is obviously not realistic in the very last shot of the movie. But the movie isn't done at all with any fired like over magic or anything.

spk_1:   32:54
Yeah, it's not. I mean, I think there is a disconnect, and I don't know what he think. He could have done something to this story.

spk_0:   33:01
You mentioned your notes How the movie 35 his Doctor Zhivago quality. And although I didn't see that particular movie of the like a predecessor, I do think Benjamin Button is very much like a movie from that time in that where we see, like older actors, playing younger sells like I mean, obviously Kit is like what? Cheese, I think almost 40 when she loves this movie and she's playing defeat like 23 24 like she's obviously not 23 24 on Dhe. Even the digitizing the Maker look actually 23 24. But coming back to our first point. She songs 23 24 she acts 2024. So in that scene, when he goes to her dance thing and cheese all very like, What are you doing here like this is very awkward. She captures a sense of it so effectively. Like when you think of older movies were acting like in their forties, like Norma Shearer playing Juliet for examine Room Angel. Yet it's clearly they're the wrong age, but it's such an old movie thing that works in the fading like she worked like anything, the more he would have worked, if you like, cast a young actress and then like, ganged up

spk_1:   34:16
the part that's important to the story is the we me when when they meet in the middle. And they wanted somebody, I think who looked as old as Brad or closer to his age at that time. But to your point about Fincher and you think this is his most empathetic film and I do agree with that. Do you think this is why this film, because it is so unlike his other movies, that people are, you know, Hiss fans, particularly his bro fans Side I. Benjamin button.

spk_0:   34:48
I mean, the funny thing is, though, like my second finch irritant, your movie fight club, which is like the ultimate remove refill. I totally I contain multitudes. To your question. I think the movie doesn't really make sense in a venture of tomography, which is why so many resisted Andi even like I mean, I can recognize even as much as I like the movie. The movie doesn't it doesn't argue for any part of a huge philosophical point like it doesn't end with telling you some great point about like humanity is just the movable people on. They think that going into the movie with the buildup for the movie and who was in the movie was directing the movie. You're sort of expecting that there is some sort of great ha ha thing like it's a movie about I don't know, uh, racism or about people who are disenfranchised or ill or sick. The move is knocked about. Any grand statement is just a movie about people. Yeah, and I think considering watch Wilmer lock Trenchard is before and after it started. Sort of like a huh? Like I don't get it.

spk_1:   36:00
I mean, the thing that at the end, sort of like the one lesson I could gather from this movie is that when he's when Benjamin says does a Daisy, nothing lasts. And I'm just like big Woop Fincher. Everybody

spk_0:   36:11
knows that. I figured you born in 1918 49 years ago. I'm 43. They are almost the same age meeting in the middle, finally caught up into wait. I want to remember it just as we are. I also like the fact that it's ultimately just is very small, humble tale of this weird man like there's nothing more. It's not trying to be more than that. And I think considering how many movies are sort of reviled for trying to do too much, I respected for just having some very small intentions. And I mean, like, we need more stories, but just regular human to human contact, like, I mean, maybe this isn't the best example off that, but if you think I got your fresh little that

spk_1:   37:25
just great, he's not really regular, like I get where your point about like it's about just connection between people. But he's such a, you know, weird character veteran.

spk_0:   37:34
Yeah, and detonating backward like I mean, I was mentioning before we started reporting that Ebert didn't like this move Roger Ebert and like that was the central. If you like the movie, just let just the very concept of the movie is. It's terrible. I don't find it that fantastical, but probably because I'd already read the Scott story before even heard about this movie. So I knew of the short story, which, by the way, is not has been in the movie. Oh, really? No, I mean, no offense F. Scott Fitzgerald, but like, it's not his best work. But

spk_1:   38:11
if it's a short story, maybe this movie could have been two hours, because I do think there's a part

spk_0:   38:16
they see is limit, though at least Ah, properly. I don't want

spk_1:   38:18
to cut any of daisies, but I would cut the tugboat and maybe Tilda, because that part is just the part where it sags and you spend like half a Knauer with Jared Harry's until the Swinton and you're like, What's going

spk_0:   38:33
on by you? I take you on the tugboat I would not remove Till that I'm I'm not even like the biggest still the stand, but I genuinely adore her in this movie.

spk_1:   38:43
I mean, she's great, but it's just that part, I think just goes on because also, she is in the same part of the tugboat. So it's not just her.

spk_0:   38:51
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like always. He reached there. If there was no Doug board. Yeah. So let me

spk_1:   38:57
ask you about what's your favorite scene in the movie or a senior Like we talked about older Daisy, Um, something that I really like is Daisy's accident just the way that the filmmaking and that Europe and the way Finch does that Yes, it is the clock ticking and sort of the coincidences and going back to tell us what if this had happened, this would not have happened. Which also is a C. Sees that the movie is talking about in the script a little bit about how everything happens for a reason or everything is faking it. So that's my face

spk_0:   39:29
you soon. Well, I mean, that scene is one of them, but also the scene before that, where Daisy and Benjamin wander first it on dhe. There's something that he does with the script, which started, like emphasizes daisy fighting. That's where you hear her talking about just like Daisy stuff on DDE. She's stalking overhead, but the we're seeing the inflow motion almost so it's It's all I think. We just already appointed a movie, which is that his outside doesn't think operative inside. Yeah, and then we finally sync up and she's like, Oh my God, I'm talking too much or something like that And they go for this walk and she doesn't dance on the pier or something in that iconic Red River. I think it's like landing at least Onda Very beautiful. It is the moment that they're not quite in touch with each other because she wants to have sex with him. And he's sort of like, No, I just wanted, like, Why don't know what he wants? I mean, he's so opaque, but yeah, we never know nothing on. But I think he leaves and she feels a bit hurt and things out of thing there. But I really like that See in like it's the best of the movie. The costume. Really good cinematography of gorgeous kids. Weiss. It's what you hear her more than you see her, and she's there to talking about the idea of the line, which comes up later on when she's at her dance studio. Yeah, and in such a good precursor for later on another good scene, which is when she's telling him about meeting in the middle. You know, when she other dime studio know what Not. I mean, the best scenes of the movie are sort of whisk it. Yeah, yeah,

spk_1:   41:20
she is the best part of the movie. Absolutely. And I do like the meeting in the middle part, and that's also very quotable. I have said that

spk_0:   41:28
Yes, it is. I mean, it's really no movie. At least leave an impression when you just think, Oh, director line from it. I mean, but there are a lot of scenes in the movie that I think about weirdly enough, I guess maybe not weirdly, the scene where he leaves her family. What I always forget happens because I'm I altered and I'm like, Why did he leave? Something happened? Oh, yeah, he lied just, like drive off in the night one. And then one morning

spk_1:   41:58
there's a close up on her face as she realizes that

spk_0:   42:01
Yeah, left And, like I mean, the more I talked about it. The more like a geek once again realize she's doing so much heavy lifting in that back half.

spk_1:   42:11
She is. I mean, I don't think this movie would work without her, but

spk_0:   42:14
yeah, I mean, just answer your question very briefly, though. Like when I think of the movie, though, the seam that pops up the image that pops up is the scene of Cate Blanchett in the pool, crying when she sees this young girl swimming. Remember, if I did, she can't dance anymore. And that image is the one that I think of most often the movie, which is just her crying and thinking. I'm not gonna I'm not going to be in the sink place of grief anymore. I'm gonna open a dance studio. Yeah, and it's very emotionally resident,

spk_1:   42:47
and I think she gets a scene like that. Where Daisy gets to show is that she's growing that she's realizing that she's understanding life and Benjamin never does, which is why it's such an odd part and then odd performance like it's definitely I like Brad Pitt in general, but this is not one of his finest moments.

spk_0:   43:08
I like I like, I mean I think that Benjamin is very oh, peak of the car key. But I like him in the movie playing Benjamin. I'd like to your point the fact that we see Daisy going on the journey sort of, I think, bringing from my previous point that the movie really is sort of more about her than him. I mean, Chief Frames the story the story ultimately is about is about Daisy telling her daughter that this is your father. Not if the movie and we haven't really about Benjamin growing up. It's really about Davey.

spk_1:   43:42
It is. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Um, I wanted to ask you about. Since we're talking about Brad Pitt, I really want to see her and Brad Pitt to work again together. What would you put them in if you had all the power

spk_0:   44:01
ruin? That's a good question. I want to see them in something like Bandits, like 1/3 of raunchy, sexy, irreverent comedy thing. So, like maybe directed by I don't know, like the like the Coen brother than Burn after reading mode.

spk_1:   44:22
Oh, and he's That's one of his best performances. He's very yeah, or should do more comedy, so Yeah, I like that.

spk_0:   44:30
Like I think you were. You were mentioning the notes about kit in the romance movies and started that she isn't in more romantic reasons. Her breakthrough wasn't a romantic movie. Yeah, I mean, she never thunder.

spk_1:   44:42
Yeah, I mean, she has done very few like this Oscar and listen to Carol like I don't think she does a lot of and I always think that most actors are just maybe not worthy of her, like on film, like Not not intend. Like on him, I think I know she's a re bro. She's really smart. And sometimes when she's in romantic stories, you're just like especially like I'm thinking of Joseph finds an Elizabeth. It's just like you're not worthy of this person.

spk_0:   45:15
You don't share Josefine. Maybe they're filming, but it's under both Shakespeare career. He had I weep for him. Okay, well, I guess he's suffered enough, but I mean, funnily tear finds like I mean, if you think of the fact that no one is worth you for it makes sense. That bandit is probably her best romance. And she gets to the

spk_1:   45:33
yes, because one is not enough.

spk_0:   45:35
Yeah, I know that's what. Do you need to collect off balance so much? It's So what is your favorite Kate performance? I mean, I have to say The Aviator, like I mean, Katherine have It's It's not the first kid performance that I saw. The first is larger and obviously, but it was the first time I took notice of her act. I mean, it's so weird. It was a weird confluence of events because I had just gotten really obsessed with Katherine. I burn like before the movie came out, like with no knowledge of the Scorsese. Mostly, like I just happened to get interested in her because she died just before the movie was finished or something like that. I remember on my Love Kit in the movie, even though she's not Castor number and she's it's what I think of K. I just think of her in that golf charity because you're talking about showering or something, whatever that line waas Yeah, that's that's that was dead if a nice sweat chief just great in that movie, especially because she's not who you think of as in theory, the Katharine Hepburn descendent. Then I wanted and I think of course. Yes, they off horses. Wealth. Would it be?

spk_1:   46:41
So? Would you like to see her work with Venture again or we some with anybody else. Who would you like to see her work with?

spk_0:   46:47
I wanted to work with Scorsese again. I always remember her off before she says that she wants her son to marry his daughter. Yeah, I like carefree now than when I watched when I watched this speech by because, I mean, what are we if you don't watch out with speeches? I think we're also where Argyll filter and know what's happening. But I want to know. I want to know. I want to see her with Scorsese because I love score. See if he needs my favorite living director. I don't want to be working with you again.

spk_1:   47:15
Yeah. Scorsese should just call her and Leo right now and put them in a movie together,

spk_0:   47:21
like I mean, yeah. I mean, yes, square feet. If we haven't done my car a different spin cycle of movies forever. If, like what? Could he possibly after it? Yeah, Who knows? Who knows? Sometimes people

spk_1:   47:33
surprise you. So we talked about Kate. Working was Brad and you wished Kate was in the scene was tilled up. But who is your favorite? Kate? Scene partner?

spk_0:   47:43
Two answers. One of them is not really an answer. Because I keep thinking like, what is the point of not being anything? Matilda? Isn't it frustrating? She's not in a scene with Jeweler in Ripley. I think they would work. Really? Well, I think that'd be great together.

spk_1:   47:59
Yes, that is very frustrating. Especially since she s thinking Matt Damon?

spk_0:   48:04
Yeah, Sticky green. And I I I loved you a lot. And I think he and Kate would be really interesting together. Yeah, in a movie. I don't want to say the kid is an ungenerous scene partner, but, like, I like not somebody I think of like a duel performer like you're certain doctors. I think of working best with other people. But kid is good when she doesn't have a theme partner. I can't let me explain a bit. Like, I mean, like coming back to her voice. Like when I think of kid down Jed. I think of her narrating the beginning part of the rings. She doesn't need anybody. It's just her. Yeah, And even when I think of her in movies. I like her and where people are with her. It's her monologue ing like the scene where we meet her in The Aviator. It's a really it's one long monologue.

spk_1:   48:51
Yeah, Leo is just there to look at

spk_0:   48:53
the year. Yeah, yeah, but you know, my anybody

spk_1:   48:56
I will counterpoint with like she's great was Dame Judi and notes on a scandal, for example,

spk_0:   49:02
that's probably her best in partner. Indeed, I do very often tell people you're not here. Maybe a question I can ask you before you go, though, considering we're talking about fashion the movie like, What do you think if Kids Best fashion ensemble in the movie?

spk_1:   49:16
Well, you mentioned the red dress where she wears on that day as Benjamin, and that's a great outfit and a great costume. But I also just like her when she goes to the dancer Sparty after when she was still a dancer. I think she's wearing like a pen wth a pencil, thin trousers and a top, and she just looks great was the red hair, and it's just I love that well, this has been a pleasure and the joy Thank you so much for coming on Sundays escape. And before we you go, do you want to tell our listeners where they can find you online and your work?

spk_0:   49:56
Ah, yes, you can find me on Twitter. My handle is departed, aviator, and you can read my reviews on Stab Brooke News, which is a newspaper in Guyana where I'm from. It's spelled S t a B r O E K. It's a Dutch word. Thank

spk_1:   50:13
you so much, Andrew. And you confined me online at Emmy, Underscore says, and follow the podcast at Sunday's escape. And until next time, thank you for listening.