The Last Music Podcast
The Last Music Podcast
Geraint Watkins Talks Balham Alligators with Malcolm Mills
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In this fifty minute podcast, Watkins details how he, Robin McKidd and Gary Rickard formed the basis of the band that stormed the London pub scene of the 80s once they were joined by Arthur Kitchener and Kieran O’Connor.
He tells of how Arthur funded the recording of the first album from a Thatcher hand-out and relates stories around the recording of the other four albums.
Along with his recollections of “crackling” times on the road with the various incarnations of the band, the podcast contains music from each of the five records they released.
In his own words, The Balham Alligators were ‘Never mediocre, we were either brilliant or bad’.
As a companion piece, you can LISTEN to a 44-track compilation of The Balham Alligators' recordings here....and;
READ MORE about their story at our website here.
Brought to you by The Last Music Company, an old school haven for fine music in this mad world.
Come visit us at https://www.lastmusic.co.uk to see what we're up to.
Right, so well, that was the sound of the Bellum Alligators not long after they'd started taking the roof off the Half Moon pub in Putney back in the early 80s. You can tell by the crowd reaction that the band was already hugely popular. Now I'm sitting here with Grant Watkins to get the juice on the band nearly 40 years after they kicked off in always a month. So we're going right back to the publicic era of music in this country. And let me start off by asking you what you were doing up to that point. What had you been playing and who had you been playing with at the time of the band's formation?
SPEAKER_06Oh, blinking that, man. That was too long ago. I can't remember. Way back in Wales. Well, there was Rare Beans and Rice, of course, in Cardiff. Tommy Riley's band. Tommy Riley was great. He was our rock and roll guru in Cardiff. Um Rare Beans and Rice. And that was a we used to come up to London. And we used to play in the you know, the um open anchor and places like that. And then I moved up to London. When did you move up to London? About 1935, I think.
SPEAKER_07Did you just come up here looking around for stuff or was that with Red Beads and Rice still working up here?
SPEAKER_06Well it was when I think we packed in Red Beans and Rice, or I can't remember what happened now. The great band, so I don't know why we Anyway, I came up here to go big timeline. Yes, it was a merciless laugh. Um and then joined Oh various boots uh groups. Um Juice on the Loose was another group. But I could still do stuff with Charlie Hart to this very day. That had Ron Kavanaugh in it and so on, and that was a good band. 18 Des Morgan Charlie. Tiz Watson was in there as well. I used to play accordion, and Tiz Watson played piano, and then I don't know what happened then. And of course there was south side. Oh side, so various, you know, bands around. I used to do the underclub on my own. At the time when Joanne Kelly used to do it. And that's you know, that was good crack. And of course, the pal of course we we were talking about um this comes the Palm Alligators was after the step tour. We were on it with Mickey Chuck. It was the tour with Lena Lovich and Reckless Eric and Jonah Lewe. And that was a good good friend. And of course, Shaking Stevens and Dave Edmonds.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, so we thought but that was all pre-alligators. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I was forgetting all that. And we would have done, you know, the Carl Perkins stuff with Dave Edmonds. All good stuff. So I suppose when the alligators came along, it was like downhill from there, then. I was doing really well up until then.
SPEAKER_07Oh, bloody hell. Yes, I was gonna ask you, I mean, if that if the alligators actually was a sort of sideline of other things you were doing at the time. I mean, I know.
SPEAKER_06It sort of was, yeah, because I was busy doing all that stuff. You know, I was uh I was a hotshot session man. Around that time I was busy. Yeah, like I say.
SPEAKER_07Scared the whole thing.
SPEAKER_06I scattered the whole bloody thing. It's like, oh well he's but we did used to drink too much.
SPEAKER_07Is it why you started off at the height at the hair and hounds, you ran into Robin up there and uh doing something up there? Well, tell us how that was.
SPEAKER_06He was with Robin McKid, yeah. And he was with Gary. Gary was my mate from um art college back in um oh whenever that was. Oh, it was painful in it to go back so long. But he was in art college in Portsmouth with me and we met up and he we then he knew somebody in Cardiff coincidentally so when I left college I went and moved back to Cardiff to join Gary Um to start a band. And again I think we drank too much or something. We get yeah, it's not a collar. Didn't really out because that was great, and they sell a guitarist that Gary knew. Brilliant. Gary was a um brilliant guy, he's a fantastic musician. You know, he had um he was a proper musician. So then I moved to London. I for some reason we sort of fell out with a and then oh I oh I don't want to go through it all. It's not that interesting. Uh but uh one thing or another. Gary moved up to London and uh by the time I was about thirty then Gary was living up in Walthamstone and we got together and one thing and another, Gary knew this Robin fella. He was the booker in the hair and hounds. And he used to book the gigs in the air and hounds and play the film. And um And then for some reason Kieran because Kieran used to play with Diz and the Dorman. Diz originally from Juice on the Loose. Yeah. And he left to form Diz and the Dorman. Fantastic band. Absolutely with Kieran O'Connor on the drummer. Um So when Gary knew Robin, he said, Would you fancy coming and doing and of course he was accordion, then? And I thought, oh, right, I can take the accordion on the bus. And then because we had kids then, I think that's when the first one was born. And you say it's more economy rather than artistic autonomy cordial. You think what can how can we do this and get some money you know to feed the baby potatoes? So it's like I know we can on the bus plus then we can get depressed and we don't have to kill and so on. But we used to have a good time, and Kieran was in that band from Diz and the Dormet, so he did come round full circle.
SPEAKER_07And I guess he he knew Arthur Kitchener because they were in a band in Stretton together, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I don't know where Arthur Kitchener whether he knew Kieran or I think he did, yeah.
SPEAKER_07I think they were in a band together, Peter and Stretton.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, Peter Strett and he was that scar thing going on, and Kieran used to record with Vicary. Keary up in chalk farm. We're doing a lot of scar stuff and Bluebeat. And I um because Kearan was fantastic. Uh Blue Beat drummer. Oh, was he? Yeah, oh he was just the business. You know what those roles that come in fantastic in the wrong place but the right place when they just like so he was great at that. And I think that's when Arthur went to Vic Vic's place to record his big thing in the weird scar things, yeah. So he yeah, so it must have been through that.
SPEAKER_07I mean I'd only seen him really before that in seventh wave, I thought.
SPEAKER_06Exactly. I saw him in that I saw him in that when I came up to London from college once, that's so long ago, it was me and Carrie. He was amazing. So we saw him and he was fantastic. And he wasn't drinking then. Is that right? He was about 17, I suppose, said when I were the same age as us. And he wasn't drinking, young fella. Yeah. Well, I think he had a little beer, perhaps.
SPEAKER_07I just remember and he had his little beer strum, and he was like, you know, jaw dropping and then the next thing he's he's got that little just a tiny little kit from kick tram, snare rum, higher.
SPEAKER_06And I think I think a lot of that was um I don't know when he started drinking. Or whenever he started It was a one-way show. Yeah, he was a one-way thing, yeah. Because he I don't know, he's so creative and everything. And I suppose he'd when he was playing with Diz, he was doing all that New Orleans drumming stuff and he al he had all that he I think his inspiration was that um Who's that Chad drummer? Um who used to drink a lot. You didn't? Well, yeah, I was gonna say that narrowed it down, didn't it? Now the English one, he's very interested in.
SPEAKER_07Oh, Phil Seaman.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, Phil Seaman. And he was on the gear as well, wasn't he? Oh yeah, so I think Kieran took his um his template from Phil Seaman, right? Boy, that's uh and he used to have this record of him talking or something.
SPEAKER_07Oh yeah, I had that, the Phil Seaman story.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Very funny, man.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Beautiful. What a role model, yeah. That is a full story. Yeah, so that was his role model. Like see the call club.
SPEAKER_07Then you so you got to record that live alligators album. I think uh Arthur had a hand in all that, but that that really sort of captures the band.
SPEAKER_06Arthur got the um the grant from the Margaret Thatcher. Yeah. They were handy I how did it work? They were trying to stop people being on the doll. And they gave people something like £200 or £400 to start up a business. Seems like I can't. So I couldn't but that's what it was. It was hundreds of so Arthur got the grant, and with that he started a replica and put out a single Homerie. Homerie, yeah. And um and did a live recording in the bunny.
SPEAKER_07Which actually captures the band exactly in full flow, didn't it? Knockout recording. Did you you you two with Dr. John, was that before that or after that?
SPEAKER_06No, that was um Oh, we did do gigs with him. Cause uh Diz and the doorman used to sort of They did the live album. They used to back him like without Tiz, like I don't know what Tiz did. We play we did a couple of yeah, but we did some gigs. I can't remember who the band was. That must have been with Tiz in the Tormen. Okay. And the Balmarg, yeah. So Kieran would have played with both bands, yeah. Something like that.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, because he's definitely on the live uh Dr. John out. Oh, Kieran would would be on that, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Right. I'm just trying to think of what well, I don't think we were there then. Because he did loads of other games with it. Yeah. I think only at the end we did we we didn't do that many with Dr. John.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, so then then Arthur left and was replaced by Dennis.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, Arthur left It was great. Because uh he announced it in the van. Okay or coming from coming from the cake, yeah. And then half an hour later he's like, oh shit, where did I put the beer? Like, oh he left it at the cake. So as he quit the band, he left the beer all in the line together. So we had to go back and fetch the beer. And uh I don't know why he quit. He said his mother was he said he's eye type, I'm not sure, really.
SPEAKER_07But the guy he got in Pete Dennis was more of a jazz, wasn't he? Yeah, pedler. Yeah, pedler.
SPEAKER_06He was that type, yeah. Too jazzy, really, actually, for us.
SPEAKER_07We definitely changed the the sound a little bit, didn't we?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, okay. Because Arthur was great. Arthur's made some really good records since. Yeah. Like there was one forky record, almost like a Bob Dolan, so to say. And the songs are really good. I thought some of his car stuff is. Oh yeah, those are good, yeah. Because Kieran played on some of them, of course. But he's done he's done one with the um it's just like forks on and like like I say, like Bob Dolan. Really good.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, so uh Juice on the Loose was playing the same sort of venue and the same sort of audience.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um with Ron, and he wound up producing the the the first studio record that was on Tony Engels topic records.
SPEAKER_06Because he used to get up and play with us quite a lot. I think he wanted to join the band. But we wouldn't let him Because I think it's cause he used to take over. He had cause that's the way he is, like. And it was great when he did take over. But then it In fact, looking back, we could have done that. Could have been from Kavanaugh's Palomaligators. And it probably would have been a better band. Cause he added Well, we won't go into that. Could well have been though.
SPEAKER_07Well he produced that first record.
SPEAKER_06Because then I think that was the compromise. He was like, okay, well you can be the we can produce the record.
SPEAKER_07Oh well. That's it. So let's hear a track off that. What I'm gonna say is how about we play Hey Hey off that album? Because that's a really good kind of sounds up the band pretty well.
SPEAKER_06It does, and we got that's got equal writing credits on that, even though Kieran wasn't there. Because he was in the rehearsal, of course he wouldn't be there you know early. So but he still got a credit for writing it. Because we thought if if he had been there, we wouldn't have written it live together. So he deserves it. Not that a credit comes to much. We probably made about 10 P over the years.
SPEAKER_07It all counts. Okay, well here's Hey Hey by the Bellam Alligators off that first album.
SPEAKER_02Oh that's the way money goes. Listen to me, I'll listen to you, I'm not told me, I listen to it, you go out and be got a steel, I don't mind, I'll fight, I'll be up on it, you know, we can't get it.
SPEAKER_03I like I like when people.
SPEAKER_00We done welcome to a five month like a roll and roll.
SPEAKER_07So uh I gather that's still in your repertoire with Slim Chance.
SPEAKER_06Well, it's not in the rep I wouldn't put it far, but we have done it with Slim Chance quite a few times, and it was and it was great.
SPEAKER_07We and we wrote some other verses and so the the back in that Pabolithic era I was talking about of music in England, um there were some real good haunts around London that the alligators were always uh famous at. Jules Roby, Pegasus, the Torrington, Cricketers, Newcastle. Yeah, they were all staple.
SPEAKER_06And we actually because we used to get a good crowd in all the pubs, and I had kids at all. So you could actually just about make a living cash all in the pub. Mainly just around London. Because Annie was like, yeah, looking back is great. We did, yeah, and then we yeah, we started branching out. Yeah, it was quite a lot because the folk festival festivals were really good because we could be sort of considered folk because we had a fiddler and an accordion, even though we were quite loud and raucous. But we'd be the ideal like closing band for like Saturday night at a festival. Yeah. Because we'd be the holy band. So we had done quite a lot at Cambridge. We did. That was good crop and eat and oh, quite a few And there was quite a lot of nice folk festivals there.
SPEAKER_07I know you did a few games around Europe in Scandinavia, but it was one particularly interesting trip I heard about Scandinavia starting off with a thing in Denmark and a bit uh I don't remember the details.
SPEAKER_06It was a bit far, it was it? It was yeah, but all I remember was Well that's that then. That's our big it was Norway, it was Norway. Oslo. And it was I can't remember what it was, but it was a some big deal. It was a record that just came out in Norway and the promoter was gonna book us a really good tour, blah blah and it was like this is and I can't remember what Kieran did he's obviously you know pissed beyond, you know, we were all we all like to drink, but he was like and sometimes he was like oh shit. And he was and and I I can't like I say I can't remember what it was, but I remember the sinking feeling of like well looks like we blown it out and that's you know the promoter was sort of said the same thing with his with his look, you know, he was like it's a week. I was like, yeah, alright.
SPEAKER_07We still did a few games in Norway, but oh he could be really hard working, uh that's all baggage takes a little bit of a big thing.
SPEAKER_06Oh exactly, yeah, it was like uh you know, we'd be in the van and he and he'd be going and he'd be lying down and be going, oh man, can you oh case sorry uh because I got a gig tonight, you know. And we're all in the van, and we all got the same gig that night, and it's like Keila, we've all got a fucking gig tonight. You know, it's like the fuck's sake, you and sometimes you would get like that, you know, you'd want to fucking clone him. I still love him though. That's winning. I'll bring him back in a minute.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, alright. Very timely. There was a second album of special delivery called Life in the Bus Lane. Great title, gotta be said.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. That was Maul came up with that title. He used to drive us in the van.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, Little Maul was great. Fantastic. He lives in LA now, Lambda. Lower address, yeah.
SPEAKER_07So obviously, uh, no lengthy recording process in evidence there because the band's really playing material every night anyway. Is that how it was? Yeah. But it sounded like it's all one take.
SPEAKER_06It's pretty much it. I think we did yeah, that's that's what we intended.
SPEAKER_07Well, that's it. I mean, the album really captured the sound of the bell amalligators again, like that first one. So uh I'm gonna play I don't wanna be in love of that. Right, that was a good one. Alright, there you go.
SPEAKER_06The missus doesn't like that one. No, no.
SPEAKER_07Do you want to play another one, yeah?
SPEAKER_06No, she just doesn't like the She won't be listening to it anyway, but she doesn't like the words. You know, it's I say there's nothing it's a song, it's not it's not all it's it's all fiction.
SPEAKER_02I don't wanna be in love anymore. I don't wanna hide it. Knocking on the door I don't wanna be in love Get in the bill She wanna make it not a but she got the mud I don't wanna be love for the rest of my life I don't wanna see high I don't wanna hide I don't wanna be high kiss you say you wanna be a bea I don't wanna hurt anymore I'll proud of sweet I don't want to find it so I don't wanna have a go on the bee I don't want to be on the phone.
SPEAKER_07Right, so Cierra was in bad health, uh obviously, and he got worse and sadly died in the Yeah, it like it was like you know, like I say, he was getting hard work and he was he wasn't well really. But the band was sort of almost stopped performing for a while anyway, around about that time. Anyway, were you doing other things yourself? And it sort of it seemed like it had it it was the end of the sort of first wave of that band, and there was a gap until the the the next alligators arrived. Was that anyway?
SPEAKER_06So I mean you've got me there, no. The chronology is.
SPEAKER_07The next time I saw you was with uh Paul Riley on bass, Bobby Irwin, and Weavers, and that that's a reincarnation of it. But in between, didn't you have a thing with Steve Donnelly doing the wobblers we walk in with uh Paul and Bobby just having a go at something different?
SPEAKER_06But I think that was after I think Kira died first, or maybe when he was ill we probably Because we stuck out playing really with him until he died. But you know, just before he died, oh I suppose it could have been a year or so that he was coming and going and because he was getting better for a bit. He had a girlfriend, you know, he was like, he's getting it, getting it out and all like he nearly doing it. And then of course he didn't. Yeah, so it was after he died, and he was like, okay, so what are we gonna do now? Because I thought we're like all gatherers without Kira and it's not there's you know a no-brainer. Yeah, so there was the warblers here with Donnelly. And he's dying now as well. Yeah, they're all dying. There's only three there's only me and three bass players left from the Palm Alligators. So we're not gonna get back together. Oh, don't you? Don't you fucking dare?
SPEAKER_07I don't think there's any doubt about that. Yeah. So you you worked with many other artists over the years, and was that something how did the alligators manage to sort of swirl around some of those dates and other things that you were doing?
SPEAKER_06Oh, I don't know. Looking back. I don't know.
SPEAKER_07Because it's difficult enough getting five people together for a show anyway, isn't it?
SPEAKER_06Well, sort of Robin used to do that, and then like Paul used to do that. Paul Riley. Paul Bearsman Riley and Because we did quite a lot in in that version with with um Bob on drums and Riley on bass. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Well I I released that Gateway to the show. That was the first record I put out on proper records. Right. And wh where was that recorded? Not all in one place at one time.
SPEAKER_06I don't think it was. Some of it was done in Peter's place downstairs. But that wouldn't have been live because it's not a big it's not bigger than this room, in fact, it's smaller than So that wouldn't have been we did a lot of orbit up together.
SPEAKER_07I can't remember. I was just curious, that's what we I know there's one one live track from the weavers on there, isn't it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Because that would have been Paul Reilly would have produced that.
SPEAKER_07Yes, he did, yeah. But I didn't see me that tracking put together right.
SPEAKER_06It was a kid um what should we call it? Johnny P. Kirch. I think we more or less did it. Uh just me and Paul Reilly did it. Yeah. Well it might have been. Yeah, I had an idea it was. It could well have been, yeah. Because we only did it as uh it was like, well that's good. Yeah. Why should we play on the Balom Alligators record then? Because we used to do it in the Balom Alligators for the accordion. Yeah, it was something like that.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, recording.
SPEAKER_06And yeah, and Seek of Love, I remember doing it. Yeah, it was more bits and bobs. Good record, though. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_07Everyone's a killer on there, but uh so I'm gonna play the opening track of that because I think that sort of since the time for war is still a very fine record. And it's called Alan's Rock and Roll. Here it is. Oh yeah. Actually, when I saw you with uh when you joined Nick's band and you were touring in the States, I saw you a few times, and you used to open with Alon's rock and roll. You and Bobby and Paul.
SPEAKER_06Oh, right, on that. No. Blimey. Yeah, there we go. And that would have been with Kerchen, wouldn't it? It was, yeah. But Kurtchin was in Nick's band. Absolutely, that was a that was a good band.
SPEAKER_07Sure was. Well, here it is, Ellen's rock and roll. So not long after we released Gateway to the South, I was trying to get an album into the Racks of CDs in petrol stations. I had this idea that Caucasian dance record might work, or Newell's hairbrained scheme. So Paul engineered it and you all got together down at my mate's studio in Bletchingly. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_06House in the Woods, is it?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh so there were I think 17 or 18 tracks all in all. Some of them he just did on the score. It's a great little record.
SPEAKER_06Oh sorry. That's right. Okay, on House in the Woods. And isn't that where we did um because I remember Donnelly coming down there?
SPEAKER_07I think he did one of the alligators tracks down there because I booked it for a few days.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And uh he just used it up. Yeah. But yeah, it's still a stand-up little record. So we that none of the tracks on that record ever got onto the biodegradable compilation we did. So I'm gonna play a track off there just for the benefit of anyone who's never heard it. And uh I don't know what it's gonna be yet, so it's gonna be a mystery to me to check it out. Here it is. This is from a Poe Boy and make it snappy.
unknownThis is what it's been like.
SPEAKER_07So there you go. That's another trick from the parallel guy.
SPEAKER_06I don't know why.
SPEAKER_07I just want to say thank you. The palamelegators because they were given pioneers of the Americana, but they were kidding me. I never quite thought of it like that. No, exactly. Yeah, I think I would say as far as the UK version of it goes, the Palomaligators lit a fuse power, so well done. Yeah, okay. Thank you, Mr. Watkins. Oh well, thank you.
SPEAKER_06Do all that meet again. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_07How did it go?
SPEAKER_02What happens?
unknownI have found out that's the same.
