Summer ‘22 Rewind: Empowering English language learners: Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan

In this episode, Susan Lambert was joined by Dr. Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan to discuss the unique challenges and opportunities presented when teaching multilingual learners how to read. Dr. Cárdenas-Hagan is a bilingual speech language pathologist and a certified academic language therapist. She is also the director of Valley Speech Language and Learning Center in Brownsville, Texas. On the podcast, she and Susan talked about how teachers can make connections between students’ home languages and English in order to celebrate their language and give them new tools to better understand English. She stressed the importance of teachers educating themselves on their students’ home languages so they can spot orthographic and phonological similarities and differences, and highlighted the importance of educator collaboration to drive student success.

Show notes: 

Literacy Foundations for English Learners: A Comprehensive Guide to Evidence-Based Instruction by Dr. Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan

Presentation: “Making Connections for Structured Literacy Instruction Among English Learners”

Reading SOS special video series: Expert Answers to Family Questions About Reading

Online book study of Literacy Foundations for English Learners By Dr. Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan

Mylanguages.org

Podcast survey

Quotes:

“The more we’re able to read, the more we’re able to learn.“

          —Dr. Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan 

“Sometimes as teachers, we feel so overwhelmed with, Oh, I don't know that language. How in the world am I going to introduce a whole new thing? Instead we should be starting to understand connections.”

        —Dr. Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan 

Transcript

Susan Lambert: 0:33

Welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast. I'm your host, Susan Lambert. We're just two weeks away from launching our sixth season, but first we have one more episode in our Summer Rewind series. This time we're highlighting a Season 4 conversation with Dr . Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan, director of Valley Speech Language and Learning center in Brownsville, Texas. We wanna feature this conversation because we know that many students in your schools and classrooms are simultaneously learning a new language and how to read that language. This episode provides helpful guidance in how teachers can make connections between students' home language and English to develop biliteracy superpowers. Here's my conversation with Elsa. Well, hello, Elsa. Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 1:29

I'm so happy to be here, and thank you for the invitation.

Susan Lambert: 1:33

Absolutely. I know that our listeners are gonna be really, really supported by and have lots of questions answered in this episode as it relates to English Language Learners. But before we jump in, we always like to hear a little bit about your professional journey. Like, how did you end up being so deeply interested in this topic?

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 1:56

Like you said, it's always a very long journey. But I began my career in speech and language pathology and worked in the Houston Medical Center for many years in head trauma, working with individuals that had head injuries, and really just fascinated by the brain and how, how wonderful <laugh> that this organ is and that how we could rehabilitate folks. And moved down along the Texas-Mexico border, where I was originally from, after many years and began to think about the students that we were serving, and found that, hmm, it's not only language delays here. There's something more going on. And so that journey began with, you know, going back to Houston, taking courses in the Neuhaus Education Service Center for two years, back and forth, so that I could get a specialty in the area of dyslexia. And being a speech and language pathologist, you know so much about language. You're the expert. But I learned so much more about how reading works and how the written language like those spelling patterns work , and then saw that there were too many children in our area that didn't have , you know, the skills that they needed. And so we started a community effort called Brownsville Reads , with my co-founder Norma Garza. And we wanted to make sure that every kinder— and this was in the early, the late '90s, and we wanted to make sure that every child could read. And that's how my journey started then, with really becoming an advocate and learning and trying to really help children.

Susan Lambert: 3:36

So in that context then , of where you were, like, "Every kid needs to learn how to read"—you didn't have primarily English-speaking students.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 3:46

No, it was fascinating that the school district that we work with , right here locally in our Brownsville area, it's primarily Hispanic, the majority of children, and high, high levels of poverty. But as we began the work , we found that, wow, we can prevent these significant disabilities if we start early working in language and in literacy in a very systematic approach. And that we empowered all of our teachers to have that knowledge. And now we call it the Science of Reading, but have that knowledge of all that goes into good reading instruction. But not only...it was really interesting. We had invited Louisa Moats and Dr. Reid Lyon for our first symposium and they came and I was embarrassed when the teachers were like, "But Dr . Reid Lyon , and Dr . Louisa Moats, what about the students who don't speak English?" And then they went back and Reid Lyon really went to Congress to ask, "You know what? We need an initiative for biliteracy." And that's how this kind of research began in the United States. And thanks to Reid Lyon and the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, United States Department of Education Institute of Education Sciences, they dedicated themselves. Like, we gotta catch up and know what to do. We've learned all of this about reading, but what about these students from diverse populations? What should we do? And I think the other key to the success that we've had here in Brownsville has been that we have been an area where , in all these more than, oh , close to 25 years, we've always had a national research project going on. And I just wanna tell you, you learn sometimes nobody wants to have the researchers in there, but when you do, it's like we're a team. We can figure out what's working and what's not working. And we can write about it and , really figure out, even further the Science of Reading and especially for this population of students. But it's so wonderful to be at this point to where this kind of work is going on across the whole United States. We still have more to do, and we need—there's still, we know that there's still gaps in the research that we need to do more and have, huge bodies of evidence. But we've got enough to know what goes int o go od early literacy instruction.

Susan Lambert: 6:26

Mm . I can't wait to dig into that. And before we do, I just wanna make one comment. You said that work has been happening for well over 20 years or something. I mean, that just is a message that we need to get out there that this isn't a one- or two-year initiative, that you need to stay focused on this effort and focused on this work.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 6:49

That's right. And we always want to refine what we're doing, even if we're happy that wow, it looks like the majority of students are on level...but can we get them to the highest levels, the most proficient levels? As through the nation's report card, you see that, o h, less, less than 35% of our students, 34%, are proficient. And that's what we're trying to get at. And it's less for students who are English learners or c ome from diverse populations. So we cannot be satisfied with basic skills. Our students, for their future, to become you-know-what, and meet all their dreams, they need to be proficient. And this work can be done because it has been done. And, we need to learn from the regions that have been implementing this kind of work for decades and have kept it sustainable. That's the other thing: Once we get something started, can we keep with it? And not break off to that mission of "every child, a reader"?

Susan Lambert: 7:55

Hmm . Those are really wise words. And just, yeah, just a reminder that that level of expectation, and we can do it, it takes an effort, but we can do it. And we're learning as continuing to learn in the work. All right: Before we sort of dig into some of the details of supporting English Language Learners, like in the classroom, one thing we know is that English Language Learners are provided with instruction through a few different program models. So how a school thinks about organizing this instruction...I'd love if you could walk us through those models and how folks might consider how to leverage those models.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 8:34

And so I love that you're bringing that up because what you're doing is having us think more deeply about the context in which these students are served. And as we look at that, we know that many students are served in what, in general education classrooms, and they have what they call "English as a Second Language." So some persons who may not speak their native language, but know some effective strategies to help them make connections in the classroom, so those might be called like ESL. You probably have heard of that. And one of the things that we know is that we also want those teachers to have great knowledge, not only about language, but also about literacy and how we can infuse that, those language skills, i n systematic manners as they're learning English a nd English language. And what happens to these students is they're learning it simultaneously often, if they're in another program. Some programs, have, OK, I'm only—but what they're learning in the ESL classrooms is "I'm learning simultaneously language while I'm learning about literacy." And what I like to say is the more I know about language, that will help my literacy. And the more I know about literacy that will certainly enhance my language skills. And so I really—we should really be seeing it as one supports the other. And reading is language-based. So we must have excellent language skills to have excellent literacy skills. But our instructors need to know about not only how we develop language, but how do we get reading off the ground? How do we move from those foundational skills? And also a ll the while b e working on vocabulary and comprehension as we move through. Another model that s tudents might be served in, Susan, is what we—you've probably heard about transitional bilingual education models. And so oftentimes in those program models, the decision has been, "OK, we're gonna get these children in; we're gonna try and give them the support in their native language; and then we're gonna move them into that second language." So it's more of a sequential kind of model. And one of the things that you see is some of those might be called "early exit." where, oh, by second grade, it's all English, or "late exit" where, oh, it's not u ntil fourth or fifth grade. But whether you're doing early exit or late exit, what we need to know is who's gonna be supporting first language and second language. And when is first-language literacy gonna occur and second-language literacy. And are we aligning that. Because oftentimes what we found out in one of our studies, all right, we were in third grade, the children were now in t hese early exit programs, it was third grade, they were supposed to be reading to l earn information...but they didn't really know how to read in English! And we needed resources to teach that, to get them to where they could get to read, to learn. And so, w e quickly had to get on our feet and say, "Hey, wait a minute. They need some of these other skills, s o that we can get them to reading, to learn." And all of this has to be done w hile we know what the standards are within that school year. Other models are called d ual-language models. And sometimes what you have is they'll say, "Oh, it's 50-50." And what that means is, 50% of their time a nd instruction is spent on a particular language and the other 50% on another language. So it's usually English and another language. And so that's also g oing t o be important when you're doing that kind of work. Yeah. All r ight. Great. Are we learning a bout language and literacy simultaneously? Are we making sure we're teaching the structure across? And are we using strategies to where one reinforces the other? And in the United States we have like 5 million English learners, but more, it's getting close to 80% of them speak Spanish as t heir first language. And then of course we have other languages, su ch as like Arabic and Vietnamese and Chinese, but they all represent maybe less than 3%, 2%, is what we're looking at. Every child and every language is important. Don't get me wrong there. But can we capitalize upon what they know? And as an instructor, I might not know much about Vietnamese, but I know that if I have a student that speaks Vietnamese, I'm gonna look up, hmm. Are there any sounds in V ietnamese that can really enhance their learning of English? And ar e t here some that, ca n go back and forth? So, I think that's also our responsibility as educators, as the professionals to know this information, because these are the students. And I—this is what I tell teachers. It's not, "Will I have a student that has another home language other than English?" It's, "How many am I go nna g et?"

Susan Lambert: 13:51

It's when, right?

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 13:51

No matter where. So it is going to happen. And then you don't want to be lost. You want to be prepared. And so I think no matter what the model is, whether it's bilingual education models, with transitional, whether it's dual-language occurring at the same time; some of them will say immersion, that they have immersion...oh, it's good . This is gonna be Spanish immersion. Or this is gonna be English immersion. Or whether it's English as a Second Language program. No matter what the program is, look carefully at how you're going to design opportunities, very intentional, well-designed opportunities for learning language and the structure of the language, to get to those foundational skills of literacy. So that you can get them to reading to learn and to get them to wonderful reading comprehension. Because that's the ultimate goal. And the more we are able to read, the more we are able to learn.

Susan Lambert: 14:50

Hmm . That was really helpful. And what I was thinking about while you were talking about those models was the fact that it sounds to me like you're not saying one model is better than the other model . It's like opening the—let's say like uncovering what's underneath the models. What kind of instruction is happening underneath the models. Is that kind of instruction the most effective , the most effective instruction to help kids learn how to read? Does that seem right?

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 15:19

So that does seem right. And it's very difficult to conduct research in the models, because there's so many variables that when you go in there , we may say we're doing this and it just quite doesn't look, you know, what one classroom i s doing versus the other? It's not as standardized a s we may think. Because potentially the diversity in that classroom...or there's many variables. And so, what I wanna say is exactly what you're saying. Susan, is just that, "OK, no matter what district I'm in, and no matter what model they've chosen, I have to ensure that the children are having very unique opportunities for language development that are well designed and that are gonna have plenty of opportunities for use and practice." And then also they must learn how reading works. And some people say, "Well, you only le arn t o read once." "Well, yeah, I le arned t o read, but I le arned t o read in my native language. But then I had to learn to read in a second language, and you have to teach me, well, how does it work? This English language is so confusing! How come you don't say that silent E a t the end? And I say it at the end? And how come you have these other vowel sounds and they're kind of s hort, and why do you have that sch wa?" That's complicated! <La ugh> An d so the more I know about, oh, OK, you borrowed from a lot of different languages. Oh, English is very Latin-based. Ooh , I can ma ke connections to all those Latin-based languages. Ooh . t here's the, Anglo-Saxon part of English and the Greek, and, the F rench came in, and it really goes with history how all this happened. But I've got to learn how reading works in English. And just because I have native-language literacy, that helps me, but I still have to know the science of English readi ng.

Susan Lambert: 17:24

Hmm . That's a perfect segue to what I wanted to explicitly ask you about. Which is, you know on this podcast, we talk all the time about the simple view of reading framework or Scarborough's Rope framework, that we sort of use these frameworks to understand the things that kids need to have to become proficient readers. How does that translate, then, in the context of developing English Language Learners or second language learners?

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 17:56

Right. So one of the things that I do know , that we have to consider—and I've had the great opportunity to work with teams of researchers at the University of Houston has been...our work in really looking at these early literacy work, and, and then also looking at, ah , how does it work, in later years? And one of the things I want to tell you is that, w e have to know the whole picture. And if you don't know the whole picture.... So I think about myself, as I work with children with language and learning disabilities. So, you know, who, who can g ive me a good picture? The families, right? The families can g ive m e a good picture. The teachers can tell me what's going on in the classroom and we can work collaboratively, t o make this happen. And I know collaboration takes time and an investment, but it's so well worth it because we can all, we're all partners in the education of an individual who we want to succeed. All of us want the same thing. And one of the things that we have to take into consideration as we look at well, what are these early skills look like? Well, what have been the opportunities, you know, was there any opportunity for early childhood interventions or early childhood programming? Did they go to preschool? And now we're in kindergarten, here are the things we're doing in kindergarten, but how can I in the kindergarten year, how can I make, how can I make sure that they're still going to be achieving these skills, while I also know I'm working on language? And can I use the knowledge that they already have? So like, let's say in kindergarten, or preschool-kindergarten, let's just say. What do they do? Beautiful early childhood classrooms. You know what they've done for decades and decades. They have worked on phonological awareness. They bring in beautiful books. They focus on the sounds. They do rhyming. They do alliteration. And they begin to work on, "Oh, you know, did you notice this individual sound? And did you notice that we switch the sound to make a rhyme?" All of that is phonological awareness . And what's beautiful about that is those skills transfer. So lovely. So if you look at a language like Spanish and English and you look, OK, well, Spanish we say has about—some people will say 22 sounds, some will say up to 24. In English, we say English has 44, some will say up to 46. No matter how you look at it , English has double the number of sounds than the Spanish language. And so like, let's say I already have that capability of playing with the sounds of the language and working with those sounds and rhyming with words and identifying sounds and manipulating. Well, I should be able to do that in the English language. And actually the correlation is 0.92 . So we are 0. 08 off from it being a perfect correlation. But what could possibly that 0.08 represent? The new sounds! So as I work with these students, I'm not gonna just treat them like how I treat a monolingual English speaker! You know, starting from the beginning! No! No, they already can do this in their language! What am I gonna do? That's different. I'm gonna check it out. And I'm gonna introduce these new sounds. Have they ever—can they process that new sound? Can they produce that new sound? Can they play with that new sound? So then we can link it, right, to reading!? To the symbols, so that they can read words and sentences and paragraphs. And so we go about our work, not thinking as strategically, and we can streamline that work by taking advantage of what they bring to us. But first I have to figure it out. I have to find out, you know, can they do this in their language? What's the same? What's different? And , so...but all the while, too, one of the other pieces of advice I have to give: Even if you're working on phonological awareness and you're working on the whole "Oh, here's these new sounds." And, but could I make connections? "Ooh, you have a sound that's quite similar!" And I like to give the example of, "Ohhh, that letter J in English is so hard for us! And you have to say in English, 'juh'! And you know, we don't—but you know, in the native language, our native language, we have the sound 'chih,' and we have that sound in English." And all it takes is "OK, students, you have the sound "chih" in your native language. We have it in English. Chih. Oftentimes we write it with that C H, right? C, H. But guess what? This sound 'juh' is almost the same. Touch your vocal cords. Juh. Juh. You used your vocal cords! Now turn off your voice box. Chih, chih, chih. Turn it on. Juh, juh, juh. Right there." They're like, "Oh, we never knew that! You taught us in a way we could make a connection!" And then we say, "Oh, and this is my word . And it's Jaguar. That will help you unlock the sound. But do you have the word in your language?" "We do! < with Spanish accent> 'Jaguar!" Oh, it's almost the same!" It's like a cognate. So I was not only working on developing that phonological awareness with these new sounds. I was making a connection with the sounds and the words and the meaning.

Susan Lambert: 23:22

Hmm . Wow. That's amazing! Well, first of all, you made it seem so easy. <laugh> But I think sometimes we—it's not being sarcastic there. I think sometimes as teachers, we feel so overwhelmed with, "Oh, I don't know that language. How in the world am I gonna like, introduce a whole new thing?" When instead we should be starting to understand connections.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 23:49

Right. Right. And there's some resources, there's a website, mylanguages.org, that has so many languages and how do they relate to English. And we could start from there. But it takes the knowledgeable teacher to know, "I know that sound, I know how it's produced. I know how it's written. I know all the patterns in this new language of English. So how can I make the connection? How can I help them with those sounds?" And then also understanding, "Why would they make these kinds of mistakes in their reading or writing or spelling? Let me investigate that further. Why, for the word boot, did they write B U T? That looks like 'but' to me." "Well, very simply, in my language, 'ooh' is spelled with U! <Laugh> And you probably thought I was crazy, writing the U! And you probably thought it was 'but,' but I was writing 'boot' using my knowledge of my sounds of my language and my orthography of my home language. And I was applying it." And it's almost like children go through this extra stage. It's like this extra stage of overgeneralization from the home language to the second language. And that's a good thing! It's a part of the process! We celebrate it! And we say, "You know what? You've got all the sounds right. You've got some symbols, but that symbol there was from your home language. Here's the new symbol that we'll use for that sound. And , and this is how, you know, the word, and here's the meaning and let's use it and talk about it and describe it." And so it's always about bringing language in as we're. And we think about language, you know, what are the components of language? Well, every language in the world has sounds, phonology. Every language in the world has words that make meaning. We call that semantics. Every language in the world has these words. And within words are smaller units of meanings. And for English learners, those are some of the best word-learning strategies for vocabulary developments. Like, "Oh my God, I can...really? That word, I have it in my language! And I know these word parts!" Because we think about languages that have Latin and Greek and many languages have those word p arts. And oftentimes, I like to say, "One time my son came home w hen he was in high school and he goes, 'Mom, this is my vocabulary word. The word is 'placate.' Can you tell me what it means?' And I t urned to him and I said Juanito, cuando mami de dice calmate ! I turned and told h im really quickly in Spanish, 'It's when I say to calm down.' He goes, 'Oh, OK. 'Facil.' He said, 'Oh, facil.' We say easy. You know, " facil" for "facil" <in Spanish accent> means easy. But we use higher-level words. And so in the English language, words with four and five and fancy words, they're probably Latin-based words, right? But even my son didn't make that connection. And so what I say is, "Can we teach the children this meta-linguistic strategy of , 'Ah, do I know this in my language? Is there a connection?' By you teaching in that manner, the students start to use that as a resource." And how wonderful is that? Because you didn't give them a fish; you taught them how to fish.

Susan Lambert: 27:21

We'll be right back.

Teacher 1: 27:24

The Science of Reading podcast is some of the best professional development I have received. I started listening to it last year as a first-year teacher during the pandemic. I'm a Title One school teacher in a bilingual program in San Jose, California. And I'm entering my second year teaching now fully in the classroom. I kept a notebook where I took notes on every podcast episode, and I would look up the guests and become more familiar with their work. I started integrating SOR practices in my classroom by implementing Heggerty. I finished the letters training over the summer. I started reading different books by different guests on the podcast, such as The Writing Revolution and The Knowledge Gap by Natalie Wexler. I even got my mentor for induction to read The Knowledge Gap by Natalie Wexler and subscribe to the Science of Reading podcast by Amplify. I recommended this podcast to so many of my educator friends. I love that there is a diversity of speakers and topics, and yet the same themes of what we know works resurface over and over again. This podcast has definitely inspired and motivated me during a very challenging time in teaching. And I'm so thankful for it. And all of those people who put in the hard work of making the podcast and coming on the show to talk about what their research has found, what's working in their classroom, and what's going on in the Science of Reading movement across the world. Thank you so much.

Susan Lambert: 28:51

I also love how you celebrated what they did right. Using that example of "boot." And spelling it the way that they know how to represent that sound rather than making it a moment of error or correction. It was a celebration with a new connection! Like that's lovely! That's respecting the language.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 29:13

And another very common one I wanna bring up: So they write the word father as "F A D E R," and everyone thinks that they're writing "fodder." No. In our language, the D, when it's in the middle position , it says it "thhh." D is thhh. < Affirmative> So they processed "father," but they used their orthography: the D f or the thhh. People don't know that. They just think, "Oh, these kids, why do they write "fod-der"? But t hey're writing father! It's just that D is "thh" when it's in the middle position of words between two vowels.

Susan Lambert: 29:51

Wow.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 29:52

So that Spanish D is the English TH in that medial position. And people don't know those connections. And so we think, oh, no, you didn't hear it quite right. No, they processed it correctly. They used their orthography. And that once again, was that overgeneralization. So I would say, "Good for you! You heard all the sounds! And you used one of—how we do in our , you know, our language, or how you do in your home language. But in the English language, that sound is represented by this digraph, these two letters that make one sound.

Susan Lambert: 30:24

Yeah. Wow. That's great. That's great. We will link our listeners in the show notes to that website that you just suggested for understanding the languages. Because I'm sure that to lots of folks that will be a huge resource, just to get their step just, you know, to get started. The first step. So we've talked a little bit about these frameworks. I know that you've talked a lot about like the instructional approach that we need to bring, and our listeners know this as structured literacy. So , we haven't talked a ton about it on this podcast, but can you tell us a little bit about structured literacy and why you think that's important for English learners as well, that sort of instructional model?

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 31:08

So when we think about structured literacy...and do you even know where that term came from? <laugh>?

Susan Lambert: 31:15

So I don't know that I do. I probably do? But no, remind us.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 31:19

So in 2014 , the International Dyslexia Association, when it was determined that really, we're not talking about phonics where we're just like, always, like "Practice, practice, practice, decode, decode , decode." We're really talking about language and about how language supports literacy and how important language is for that development and how we need to be very comprehensive in our approach. So there was some focus groups of surveys that went out. And we had this board member, John Mayo Smith , I'll never forget. I mean, he's just really an out -of-the-box thinker. He goes, "Well, what do you call what you do?" And like, we really didn't have a name for all that goes into good instruction. <Laughs> And so that's how in 2014, the IDA decided to use that structured literacy. But really realizing that, you know, when you talk about students who struggle, we can prevent so many difficulties by having this very comprehensive approach. So what does it mean to have a comprehensive approach? So, as I told you, Dr. Reid Lyon, he really pushed, and Peggy McCardle after him, and, Brett Miller after Peggy really pushed this, for Congress to allocate money, to do this biliteracy research. But what, what was so important in that process, we had that National Literacy Panel report in the year 2000, and by 2006, another team looked at the National Literacy Panel for language, minority children a nd youth, looking at thousands of research studies. And once again, it came up that what's essential, what's essential, yes, for English learners includes—yes, we wanna work and make sure the students can process the sounds, produce the sounds; we wanna make sure that they know how the language and the structure of the language works, and we need to work on their fluency, vocabulary a nd comprehension—but there's some extra things. And the extra things written in that, n ational report include exactly what I was just describing to you, those cross-linguistic relationships, celebrating their language, the culture, the context, and for us...and we, as you know—I know we're busy, we are so busy as educators. But for us to do a superb job, we have to take the time to figure out and be knowledgeable about the language, the culture, the context, the structures. And bringing that in was actually written in, that it was very important to look at those cross-linguistic relationships and bring in that knowledge. But they also talked about, you know, we need, you know, preparation of teachers and we need also better assessments, t o make sure that we're looking at these children i n the right manner. So I think a lot of people don't know about that report. And then from there, other reports have come out that are, are also important. And we have—the United States Department of Education produces what we call practice guides, the Institute for Education Sciences. And so there's some practice guides, for example, you know, teaching academic language and content for middle school and, you know—for middle school students or upper elementary students, here are the English learners. How do we develop their language and literacy and their academic knowledge as we move across the different content areas that they have to learn? And I think the message we need to get out is every teacher is a language teacher and every teacher is a literacy teacher. So no matter if I'm teaching math or science or social studies , yeah, there's language in there. I have to work on the vocabulary. I need to make sure that they can read and have deep understanding. And so it's when you realize "I'm also a language and literacy teacher, even in math class." Right. And so I think it's, it's, you know, also we need in our teacher preparation programs to think along that framework as well. That we must develop language and literacy , as we're developing all the content areas, because you're not gonna—the ultimate goal is to understand. And you have to read to learn by the time you're in upper elementary and in middle school and high school and beyond, in college. But we're not gonna get there if we didn't really think about all these skills and being very comprehensive. And I would like to see that we have a bridge and we need this bridge. I know that there's a lot of noise out there. There's a lot of noise out there. That this group is saying, "Well, the science of reading doesn't address language and students from diverse populations." And the other group, the science of reading group, is saying, "Well, this group doesn't address literacy and how literacy works." And when I read about two groups, I really see that everybody wants the same outcome. And that if when we put the child at the center of everything that we do, let's come to terms. Let's—why are these children so behind? We need better opportunities for oral language development. And we need to incorporate that. It's not a silo. I don't learn language separate from literacy. And I don't learn literacy separate from language. Language is in everything that we do. And so how can we bridge together the work, the work that has been done? And really think about the child and meet them at their point of need? And some of them will need—all of them will need oral language development. Every child, even monolingual English speakers. We need to do better at vocabulary, language and complex language. They will all need work in oral language. But some, but many of them don't know how reading works. And so, and what we also find with these students. is they quickly get that so we can move on. I gave them those foundational skills, so let's continue with the language and the fluency, the comprehension, and looking at deep understanding and expanding their world knowledge. But we've got to come together. It's time. It's time to come together to understand that language is in everything that we do, but we do have to have some of the—many of these students will need...those early years, everyone needs those foundational skills. We know, kindergarten, first grade. Let's get it wrapped up. And then w e move o n t o the more complex l anguage structures, more complex literacy structures, getting to read all the different genres and celebrating all the different ways we can learn about languages a nd cultures. But, t his, you know, "I'm against you and you're against me," and who loses? Children.

Susan Lambert: 39:02

Right.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 39:03

That's who loses.

Susan Lambert: 39:04

That's right. That's powerful. Well , that's really powerful. And I know one of the things that you did, and I'm not, I'm not gonna put words in your mouth, but one of the things that you did to try to bridge this gap is—I think that's where the genesis of this book that you wrote, which is called Literacy Foundation for English Learners. I have it in my hand. The listeners, I know you can't see me right now. I have it in my hand. I literally got it. Thank goodness for Amazon Prime, because I got it over the weekend, overnight delivery. And I cannot keep my eyes off of this book. Because it is brilliant and amazing and is so accessible. First of all, can you tell me how and why this book came to be? And then we'll dive in a little bit to it.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 39:50

Right. So really how it came to be was....I really think about all the things that I get to do and how I get to help kids. And now I see those kids that I helped, now I see their kids! <Laugh> "Oh yeah, she fixed me right up; you're going right to her!"

Susan Lambert: 40:15

<laugh>

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 40:16

But we get them earlier now, because of all the awareness, right? But I think what it really comes down to is, I've had opportunities to talk, to explain, and trying to bring research to practice. And I thought, you should put this and get all your colleagues that have been on this journey, so many colleagues all across this nation that are my mentors, you know, I think about all my mentors, and think about, "Well, how can we express that in a way that makes sense, that's user-friendly, and that brings the research to practice of what we know, what we still need to know, and think about more deeply the context of these students? And so there's all kinds of vignettes of these different case studies and different students in there. But really looking at, "What did I talk about the components of...." I was trying to get to the components of language. So I talk about the sounds, phenology, the words, vocabulary, morphology, but also understanding, syntax. How do words go together in a language? And how do we use that for writing, and then comprehension? How do I become a strategic active reader, a problem solver, a thinking student? And how do I learn best? And really trying to get to educators to think about: try this, try that, t hink about this, think about that. And giving samples of: this is one way you might do it. This is how you make the connection. Here's a sample lesson. Here's a way you could maybe screen for some of these early little things here. We have lots of assessments t hat are out there, but the bottom line is, no matter the language, no matter the child, if you're in an alphabetic language, we know young children start to recognize print and they recognize the letters and then we want them to connect those letters to sounds and to be able to decode and read them. But as we work with English learners, even as they develop—and typically, by the way, when I work in t he Spanish language, o h, they get those foundational skills quick! A nd s o we're always working on further developing vocabulary and world knowledge and that kind of thing. But here's the thing. They can do the same in English. But I need to be working all the w hile on language. And what happens often is we don't wanna...and....we cannot work in silos: Oh, I'm gonna do this. And next I'm gonna do that. No! As I'm doing this work, I'm bringing in ALL those components. And so in the book, I try to show how I bring in the phenology and the vocabulary and the morphology and the syntax and the pragmatics, even as we're learning literacy and language. And it's just that framework, I know, I know, that language is so essential and reading is language-based. So it's not an afterthought. I'm working on language in everything that I do in reading. And that those are the kind of lessons that I kind of have models for them in the book, to show, this is how you do it. You can do this. And this is how it looks. This is how you infuse sounds and words and u se and structure and context. This is how you do it.

Susan Lambert: 44:00

Hmm . And when you were thinking about your audience, I know we talked about a couple of different resources that came out after the book or in parallel for the book. Can you talk a little bit about those resources that are there?

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 44:15

Yeah . So when the book was written, the idea was, "Hmm, could this be, of course, in a university program, preparing teachers to work with English learners?" And so I wrote up what they would do for the entire semester, week by week . And so professors can access that , through the publisher, which is Brooks Publishing. And they can have that—you get the book, you get that too. And then fortunately—like, I'm so fortunate, Susan , I'm so fortunate that you all reached out to me because , <laugh> the , patent out of Pennsylvania reached out and they said, "We're gonna be reading this book with our educators in Pennsylvania. And would you be willing to do a book study week by week by week, going chapter by chapter?" And I invited the contributors to the book in. Oh, it was so much fun. And we had all persons coming in to really discuss, and had discussions and people asking questions and us trying to answer those questions and lead them to other resources. And so they have that available on their YouTube channel. And some people...the other day, I did a webinar for them. And they said, you know, "On that chapter one, we just got 2000 people looking at it." So that makes me so happy. 'Cause I think about 2000....22 kids in a classroom...I'm just thinking about kids, kids , kids, kids! How many kids will this affect? But the bottom line was put this together. And then also for those, I was thinking about school districts, sometimes school districts have teachers and they meet regularly to have those community-of-practice committees. Andwhat we see is, "Oh, this would be a wonderful learning that they can—and then they could go practice and come back:Hey, how did it work out? Let's, let's talk about it. And I think that's important as well. And more recently , we're thinking about—I work with children with disabilities in special education and in the dyslexia field that we should be thinking about, h ow, w hen you work with t hese students and p rovide interventions, how you should be providing the intervention focused on their language and f ocused on all of the assets that they bring to this setting of intervention and use that to the advantage of the student. And also to your advantage! It makes your life easier as an instructor because they get it quicker, b ecause you made a connection. And so really, I 'm so grateful that people have reached out. And I have a funny story to tell. When it came out a nd Brooks Publishing, and people started, "Elsa, the book i s out," but people are having trouble getting it, and then Amazon, they're out, and I'm like, really? And this is only the first week! And I called my mom and I told her, "Mom, I think the book, whatever they got sold out i n the first week!" My mom goes, "No, they probably only made two copies, yours a nd m ine. " < laugh>. And what I love about that is you're always about your mom putting you in your place. And then I have my sister saying, "I was looking at the Nation's Report Card, and you a re always talking about all this work o n biliteracy and making a difference, and I don't see those scores going up for this population o f students." I go, "Do you know w hat i t t akes? It takes to move a mountain to move an entire country, that we have regions of success. And that's the other thing that we have so much success and so much expertise in our schools, but we need to celebrate that. You know, you're never a p rophet in your own land. And we have so many people. And I think the more we start sharing and telling the stories of success, the better off, t hat we w ill be. Y eah.

Susan Lambert: 48:18

Yeah. That's a, that's a lovely way to say it. And I'm sorry about your mom! I mean , come on mom! <Laugh>

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 48:24

She's such a teaser. I was like, "Oh man." I go, I" know they printed a little bit more than that." <Laugh> But yeah, it's not a bestseller or anything like that, but I mean, a t least it's reached the hands of teachers and persons like yourselves that can influence the field and influence thinking about these students in a different way. And that we're not gonna think in the same way. We're really gonna differentiate and really have this value-added. They add so much value. And they have so much value to add. But let's celebrate that and let's bring that in and let's do so intentionally. We know teachers spend about 30% of their day on oral language, but it's not as well designed and intentional and purposeful, so we're not getting the results that we need on their oral-language development. And so, I think that's very important.

Susan Lambert: 49:27

Hmm . I know in our pre-call conversation, you really had a lot of passion when you talked about the dilemma the classroom teacher faces, and we made reference to it earlier. But the idea that I maybe only can speak English, but you really believe that in spite of that, there's a lot of things that teachers can do to help support their second-language learners. What advice do you have for teachers on that?

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 50:01

Right. I know sometimes it can be so intimidating, 'cause a lot of times teachers say, "Well, I've got these children and they all speak various languages. What am I to do? And how am I—how can I meet them at their point of need, when I've got a class of, 20 or 22 students?" And, we know that when we h ave that opportunity to a lso give the c hildren opportunity to work in small groups within our classroom settings, that can be so beneficial because also children are more willing, you're more willing, to express yourself in a smaller group t han in the big group trying to risk-take in this new language. But what I wanna say is that first of all, know about, know about the English language and teach it, t each it in a way that really does cover all those aspects of, of developing, not only those foundational skills, but thinking about the la nguage, the comprehension, the world knowledge. But the other thing is, like I said, you know, when you have these students that speak these other languages, so I go and I investigate, OK, let me think about—and families are our partners as well. And oftentimes, that's what I say: They are our resource. And so they're intimidated by the school setting. And so let's bring them in, and let's really get them to help us and to understand their child better. But it really does take us the time...if you spend time u p-f ront understanding more, and then makes you being able to deliver, then the children will respond because they have something to connect to. And I just think about that they have all these different languages. Well, I can be prepared like, "Oh, OK." And maybe there's not a connection to be made. Maybe th ere, that so und d oesn't exist. But is there something that's similar? And I talk about in the book. I talk about approximations and how you can get around that as well. And the other thing I talk about is, I'm also from the point of speech and language, how children process, the sounds and how they produce the sounds, will be how they read and write and spell them. And so don't take in the classroom—uh, we don't want the mis-articulation. It's one thing to have an accent. Accent's fine. But not incorrect production. So I've got to get them to be able to discriminate those sounds and produce those sounds. And so I actually have in there, and I teach teachers, these are the sounds made with the lips. These are the sounds pushing the tongue up. These are the sounds in the back. Right? So that's important as well. And don't be afraid because you don't know the language. You wi ll b e amazed. So what kind of connection can I make at the sound level? What kind of connection can I make at the word level? What kind of connection ca n I make at the vocabulary level? And what connection can I make to their language and culture? Children love reading and seeing themselves in books. That makes them more engaged. That's awesome. Mm -hmm < a ffirmative> A nd I think that's another way that we celebrate. And we also validate. So that the children feel comfortable and they feel acknowledged. I think that that's important as well. And there's so many different b o oks available, and now, with technology, everything's at our fingertips! It's amazing. The other thing that we know, the other strategies that we know that helps English learners, is quickly having those visuals, for sometimes, they were complex things. We quickly found a short video—one thing was a mi me. I remember that classroom. And I was like, "Oh, teacher, just get in there and just show them in action! This is what a mime is. This is what they do. Isn't that fun?" And we pretend, can we get up and act like we're a mime? And so it's getting them engaged. And in the world of working with ESL, we know those visuals help. We know a quick demonstration will help. All of that is j u st a s c oncrete as we can make it. The other thing that we t ake advantage—and I wanna talk a little bit about vocabulary. And I give the example of the simple word "run." And oftentimes, an d Isabel Beck writes about in her book about words that are basic, common, everyday words and then words that are academic words and words that are academic but they're very narrow in their scope. But what I wanna say is for English learners, you're gonna work on the academic words, the Tier 2 words that are recommended, but we also need to address Tier 1 words in m ore depth. And the simple word "run," all ri ght. I came up with 45 different definitions, all right? So you run your mouth! All these sayings, right? You run amok. You run a t emperature. You have a dog run. And you run the governor's campaign. So when we think about even simple words can have so many multiple meanings. And as students who are learning English as their second language, they haven't had the same opportunities. So let's bring those opportunities in there. And let's not only know about what they cal l th e bre adth of words, but also their depth. And oftentimes simple words—and I can use that like wit h "t able"—I'm gonna table that item on the agenda. I sit at the table. We do multiplication tables. All right? Oh, I have the table whe n I remember chemistry. <la ugh>

Susan Lambert: 56:15

Oh, yeah.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 56:16

I didn't do so well in that <laugh>.

Susan Lambert: 56:19

I can't recall the name of it either!

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 56:23

But <laugh> yeah, so yeah, I was like, "Ah, I don't like this so much, but I have to learn it!" So. But it is so important to understand that as well. So that for English learners, it's not only knowing all those academic words, but it's also exploring in-depth words and exploring those multiple meanings and how we have sayings and where do those sayings come from? And, you really—when you are able to use idioms in a language, that really demonstrates a higher form of language use. And when you're able to use those in the appropriate context, how wonderful that is. And so that's really so beneficial to English learners.

Susan Lambert: 57:06

Hmm . So helpful. And for our listeners, we're going to link them to these resources that you've shared with us. So that they're just a click away from all the things that they need. sort of as we wrap up and close, is there, are there any final thoughts for our listeners? Wow. Like there's a multitude of information that's in here.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 57:28

The other thing I want to talk about is that I always wanna think about preventing any kind of reading disability and think about good instruction in those early years, that's comprehensive. But I wanna think that schools are following a multi-tiered system of support, and that as students are there, we're really thinking about all of these variables that can occur. But we want to monitor very closely and we shouldn't be afraid of taking a look. But we have to make sure that the look is a valid look, that it makes sense, that we've taken into consideration the context. A project that I worked with for the Office o f Special Education Programs and with D r. L inda Cavazos and Dr. Alba Ortiz was o n the multi-tiered systems of support for English learners. And we have a site for that, MTSS f or Ls. And we had—our colleagues from the University of Texas at Austin, Leticia Grimaldo and Shannon Girard, and then also at Portland State, with Julie Esparza Brown and Amanda Sanford. And what we have in there are some simple tools for first of all, looking at language, like some rubrics, but also at the multi-tiered system of support, as you're working with English learners, have you considered, do you rate yourself a one, a three or a f ive, you know? Where do you rate yourself in how you manage this multi-tiered system o f support? How are we doing in Tier 1? How are we doing with those interventions? Are we embedding these language skills as we work in reading? Are we thinking about—are we thinking about the screening tools? Are they really measuring what they purport to measure, and are they fair and valid for the population i n which we're using it? If not, what other kinds of things can we do? And so really looking at those tools. And we have some literacy briefs on t here for children with disabilities and without disabilities, that can b e so helpful. And also thinking about collaboration and leadership. We just put one out, a literacy brief, I think it just went out maybe last week. But these are tools that are free, that t he United States Department of Education a nd Office of Special Education Programs has sponsored, and they're called model demonstration p rojects. And so it's really about getting in the field and working in the field, bringing research to practice. And all of ours was for English l earners. And so there's some tools. There's more work that we wanna do on those kind of rubrics that we've developed. And so much information there, once again, at your fingertips, <laugh> at your fingertips, that can be used to really understand better. And I mention that all the time, because you don't want that work to, like, for folks not to know about it. So five years were spent on that, and we've really got to do a better job of getting the message out. Here's some tools that came out of those projects that can be so helpful.

Susan Lambert: 1:00:44

Mm-hmm <affirmative> Great. It sounds like a whole other episode . We could talk about that actually.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 1:00:50

Yeah , yeah . You know, some people—I was thinking about, "Oh, it might be boring to go through all of that," but it might be so helpful as well! Maybe we could do one on each literacy brief and bring in the whole team, why not? So, t hat would be cool anyway. So, I think, I think those—I do have them. I didn't have—all the literacy briefs were not done by the time this was published, but the website is there. And, you know, those projects are wrapped up. We hope that there'll be, in the future, some further funding to research further. But what—I think those are very valuable f or the audience to know as we try to think about the Science of Reading amongst English learners that are typically developing and those that we're worried about that aren't developing as we thought they would be. And first we have to look at ourselves. Was it "dys-teach-ia" or was it actually dyslexia, right? Are we the problem? <Laugh> Do we not do a good job? Or am I seeing this child struggle? What are some things that I can do to help? And what do I need to do to differentiate that instruction? And how do I—and then if not, what other help can I get? But we're all a team; let's not work in silos. So we have so many resources. We have, you know, we have other colleagues in our grade levels and other grade levels; we have literacy coaches; we have speech and language field; we have—we need to really collaborate and work together. And I know that that takes time. But through that collaboration , we can have success. And I think when children get more opportunities for practice then the better off they'll be to achieving their goals for literacy and language.

Susan Lambert: 1:02:48

Mm -hmm <affirmative> . Hmm. Well, like I said, this episode is packed full of information that our listeners are gonna be able to dig in for weeks. We really, really appreciate, number one, all the work that you're doing, and then your willingness to share with us. And so, yeah, thanks again. We will link listeners—

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 1:03:10

Thank you, Susan!

Susan Lambert: 1:03:10

—one more time to all of these resources. And it's been such a pleasure.

Elsa Cárdenas-Hagan: 1:03:15

It's been so great to get to talk to you and hopefully , the audience will find this information of value to them in their settings, so they can reach and teach every child, including our English learners. 'Cause they're smart. And they're gonna be also such a great—have a great promising future. And I always say, they're gonna take—are you gonna take care of me when you're a doctor? <laugh> Are you gonna take care of me in the future? And so I know we want an educated population and these students have so much to offer. So , let's reach and teach all students, including our English learners.

Susan Lambert: 1:03:55

Thanks so much for listening to that conversation with Elsa, which we first released in October 2021. Check out the show notes for resources from her and let us know what you thought about this episode in our Facebook discussion group, Science of Reading: The Community. Check back next time for the launch of Season 6. In fact, I'm so excited to share it with you that I wanna give you a tiny sneak peek .

Speaker: 1:04:21

And we looked at Scarborough's Rope and talked about how, like you can't just teach one side of things. If we're really focused just on word recognition, we're not gonna get all of our kids to where they need and deserve to be.

Susan Lambert: 1:04:34

There's much more of that to come. So keep your ears on this feed for the start of Season 6. Thank you so much for listening.