S6 E8: Love at the center of literacy with Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson

Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson, Deputy Chief of Curriculum and Instruction in the School District of Philadelphia, has played an integral role leading and sustaining a transition to the Science of Reading in the Philadelphia public school district. But making such a change across a large district is difficult. In this episode, Dr. Francis-Thompson (who goes by Dr. Ny) talks with Susan about Philadelphia’s experience. She also talks about her own experience learning about the Science of Reading, and offers tips to other district-level leaders and wisdom about providing all students with the liberation that comes through reading and leading—all with love at the center.

Additional Resources:

• Dr. Ny’s LinkedIn profile
• Focused implementation: Doing less to do more with Dr. Doug Reeves—Podcast episode
• 2021 The Philadelphia Citizen story: “A Better Way to Teach Reading” 
• 2021 Chalkbeat Philadelphia story: “Just 32% of Philadelphia third graders read on grade level. Freedom Schools Literacy Academy could be a model to change that.”
• A 2017 Accountability Review Council report on Philadelphia: “Promoting the Science of Reading Instruction in Philadelphia Public Elementary Schools: Early Implementation Lessons”
• Video of Dr. Ny speaking: “Equity in Curriculum”
• Dr. Ny’s 2017 dissertation: “Beyond the Pink Sand: Case Studies of Experiences of Multi-Tier System of Supports Implementation in the Bermuda Public School System”

Quotes:
“I have never met a student that did not want to learn how to read or a family that did not understand the importance of their children knowing how to read.” 
—Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson

“We have to listen to our young people in order to be able to move with that sense of urgency.” 
—Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson

“Liberation is connected to our students being literate… In order for our students to truly be free, we [need to] understand the power that reading has in their future.”
—Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson

“We have to remember who we are serving and why we are serving them.” 
—Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson

“A lot of times when you’re in a large system and you’re leading a large system, it can become very robotic-like a machine. You do this, you get this, you do this, you get this. But there’s a human aspect that if you have not considered that human aspect, you could very well end up in the same place that you’re trying to move away from.”
—Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson

“And while it’s a five-year strategic plan, we do have a sense of urgency and I’m sure within that there are gonna be benchmarks and hundred-day plans and smaller plans to make sure that we are actually doubling down again on the things that truly matter, that are gonna lead, outcomes for our students here in the school district.”
—Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson

“If we’re only in the business of educating some students, then what are we really doing? It’s important to look at the students that are not benefitting and really identifying the things that work for that population of students rather than continuing with practices that aren’t meeting the needs of the students we’re serving.” 
—Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson

Transcript

Susan Lambert: 0:35

This is Susan Lambert, and welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast. On this episode, we're continuing to explore how systems can best support early literacy instruction, by taking a look at one of the country's largest school districts. The school district of Philadelphia has been embracing the Science of Reading. And on this episode, we speak with the district's Deputy Chief of Curriculum and Instruction, Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson. Dr. Ny talks about the challenges of implementing the science of reading across a large district. For listeners who have enjoyed our recent conversations about implementation science, this will be a great look at what this really looks like on the ground. Dr. Ny also talks about her own background as a former special education teacher and as a mother of a young reader, Dr. Ny also shares why she believes it's so important to focus on our students with disabilities and how literacy is key to liberation. Here's my conversation with Dr . Ny. Well, Dr. Ny, thank you so much for joining us on today's episode.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 1:48

Thank you, Susan.

Susan Lambert: 1:49

We're going to talk a little bit about who you are and what you're doing there in Philadelphia. So our listeners would just love it if you could briefly tell us about your education journey. How did you get to what you're doing right now?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 2:03

Absolutely. So I first wanna start off saying that I approached this conversation as a former special education teacher that has been 10 years in urban public education, improving the reading of children through evidence-based reading instruction that has been rooted in the Science of Reading, paired with culturally responsive instruction. One interesting fact is that I was trained in general education, so I started off as an elementary school teacher, and based on my passion for working with students with severe emotional and behavioral needs, that is how I was introduced into the world of special education. My dissertation research also focused on the implementation of multi-tiered systems of supports.

Susan Lambert: 2:49

Wow.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 2:50

Currently, I serve as the Deputy Chief of Curriculum and Instruction in the School District of Philadelphia, where we are committed to improving reading for all students that we serve, with the implementation of Science of Reading at the foundation of our work. I am also a mother of a striving reader who is seven years old—shout-out to Nina, who also experienced pandemic learning. And during pandemic learning, I learned a lot of things as a leader in this organization, but also as a mom watching her daughter strive to read in a virtual space. So I definitely bring that aspect to the conversation. And I continue to advocate for my own daughter to receive instruction that is rooted in the Science of Reading , as I had to do a lot of advocacy around reading instruction for my own daughter. But I bring that approach to this conversation as well.

Susan Lambert: 3:45

That's awesome. Thank you so much for that summary. I mean, just knowing general education, special education, you've done some dissertation work around MTSS...so you have a real broad perspective. And I know you're gonna highlight some of that in our conversation. So when we were having our initial pre-call, you talked a lot about your work in special education and what you saw about the impact of applying some evidence-based practices to reading. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 4:19

Absolutely. And, and I will start off by saying that I have never met a student that did not want to learn how to read, or a family that did not understand the importance of their children knowing how to read.

Susan Lambert: 4:35

Thank you for that.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 4:36

And I will take it even a step even further, that I've never met a teacher that did not have the best intentions, or believed that what they were doing would lead to effective reading outcomes for students. So as a special education teacher, there were many students that I began to notice that were in my class that I really did not believe that they belonged in special ed. And I'll tell you why I did not believe that. Because after this very intensive reading instruction that I was providing in my classroom, I began to see students excel in reading in ways that their general education teachers had not seen them perform. And we began to have some very interesting conversations in our multi-tiered systems of supports meeting, where I was really trying to seek to understand what was happening prior to students being evaluated and determining that they had a specific learning disability in reading and required specially designed instruction. And through that body of work, that led to my dissertation topic, but also it led to me working with many other students that did not have disabilities and not as a barrier to them getting the services if they needed them, but many students just weren't taught that very structured approach to reading early on in their schooling. So there was just some gaps in what they had been taught. And through that explicit teaching, I was able to see students progress in reading instruction. So that led me to believe that there was a gap that was in our Tier 1 instruction, rather than all of these students that are experiencing all of these reading difficulties that is requiring them to have an evaluation and requiring them to receive services as a student with disabilities.

Susan Lambert: 6:36

Hmm . When you were in special education, what grade levels were you focused on?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 6:41

So I started my special education journey with sixth, seventh, and eighth graders where I was an emotional support teacher. Which was definitely very eye-opening to me because many of those young people that I had in my classroom as an emotional support teacher, their disability was really focused around the social and emotional behavioral aspect. But interestingly, I also found that there were those gaps in that structural reading approach that may also have contributed to some of the behaviors that they were demonstrating. And once we were able to really wrap our supports around the social and emotional behavioral aspects with those students, again, I was able to see amazing gains , with students that many people believed could not survive in a regular education setting. And that also led to many of my students going into the general education setting. And I was one of the pilot schools where we started co-teaching. So my emotional support class, while we were in this very structured isolated class, I'm like, "These kids don't belong in here, and I need to find a way to get them access to the general education curriculum. So I need to find a way to build those relationships with those regular ed teachers." And while I was a master of building social and emotional environments where students thrive, I also knew that I needed to get my students access to that core instruction. And that is how co-teaching was absolutely beneficial for me in that sixth, seventh, and eighth grade range. But after that school closed, I went on to be a elementary school K—5 special education teacher. So I've had the wide range of working with students from kindergarten all the way up to eighth grade.

Susan Lambert: 8:25

Yeah. Very interesting. And starting with that sixth, seventh, and eighth grade level, too , must have given you a lot of insight about things you could do at the younger grades to actually start working on prevention.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 8:37

Yes. Yes. That is actually what just powered me and gave me that sense of urgency of how I was providing that instruction in K—5, because I saw at sixth, seventh, and eighth grade, I'm like—these kids are getting ready to go to high school.

Susan Lambert: 8:52

Yeah.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 8:53

And the urgency of making sure that these students received what they needed at that sixth, seventh, and eighth grade was a lot of pressure. And it gave me that desire and will to make sure that at the younger grades, there was no time to waste.

Susan Lambert: 9:07

Right, right. I have another question for you, too. Because usually when you go on to get a doctoral degree, you get super-passionate by something, or there is some reason that you're like, "I gotta learn about this more ." Was there a moment or, you know, an experience that actually led you to wanna do more in-depth research about the topic of MTSS?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 9:32

Yeah . So again, in my school, I was the person that—first I started as the special education teacher, but then I became what was called a special-education liaison. So I was really responsible for all special education compliance instruction that was happening within my school building. And as a part of that process, again, just the numerous amount of referrals that were coming through, I began to think about, "Why are we waiting for students to fail? Why does a student have to wait to be evaluated to receive the instruction that they need?" That was the initial spark of my interest into MTSS because I'm like, we can't wait for them to fail, and we can't wait for this daunting process of being evaluated for us to be responsive to the needs of students. So then I became the person that was the MTSS champion of the school. So as that role evolved in our organization, we had MTSS champions. I was leading that work at my school. So not only was I looking at leading special ed, but then also this new multi-tiered systems of support. And I was structuring that in my building, and I became more intrigued around the evidence-based reading practices as well as evidence-based reading programs because I saw the gaps of those things not being implemented at Tier 1. That's really what sparked my interest in really wanting to understand a little bit more. And then I did my research in Bermuda.

Susan Lambert: 11:08

Awesome.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 11:10

So while all of my passion and the things that I learned was in the school district of Philadelphia, I had an opportunity to step back and look at this same approach, multi-tiered systems of support, in an international school with so many other contexts.But it was really interesting for me to be able to see the comparisons of how initiatives or reform efforts happen here in America and how they land in places outside of America.

Susan Lambert: 11:39

Interesting.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 11:40

Yeah, because one of the things that I found in Bermuda is that you also didn't have all of these policies and laws and funding that was connected to MTSS, and then I had to find the origins of how MTSS got into this country. It came from a person that was American, that then went into work into that system. And when I started my research in Bermuda, that person was no longer there. So I got to see the remnants of what happens when a person that is driving initiative is in an organization that is not in the organization anymore. And what happens to those initiatives when that person leaves?

Susan Lambert: 12:21

Very, very exciting, and congratulations on that. That is a major accomplishment, by the way. And I'm sure that some of those themes are going to be, you know—we're gonna probably talk about 'em as we fast-forward in time to 2019, when, of course, you know, the world is about to shut down. COVID is hitting. We had no idea how it was gonna impact anything. Two things happened: You talked a little bit about your daughter, who experienced that remote learning, and was it about the same time that you took a new role within the district there? Did those two things happen almost simultaneously?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 12:58

Yes,

Susan Lambert: 12:59

Man! Wait, OK. Let's unpack this a little bit. Let's talk, first of all, as a parent—and I mean a parent that's a highly educated parent in the world of science, of reading, literacy and all that—what was it like, as a parent? And what did you see?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 13:16

So , Susan, I'm taking a deep breath, right? Because 2019 was a very, it was a really difficult time for this country. Not just with the pandemic, but also with social unrest across this country.

Susan Lambert: 13:34

Absolutely.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 13:35

So those two things—unwrapping and unraveling those two things requires me to take these deep breaths. And there was a lot of loss of life in 2019, 2020. So as a mother, my daughter was four years old; she was in preschool; she was in a private preschool. One of the things that I did enjoy, and I'll start with that, and I think her teacher understood the value of socialization. My daughter's a only child. So there would be times that they would just sit on Zoom and talk with their friends.

Susan Lambert: 14:16

Mm .

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 14:16

And at the time I was like, "What are they doing? Like, I need to—like, where's the instruction? Like, what's happening?" Like, because I'm on this side, like getting instruction ready for the school district of Philadelphia. My daughter's over here just eating with her friends and just having casual conversation! In retrospect, I value that. Right? Because language, language is also important in the development of students, right? So I valued and understood what that teacher was doing. However, early childhood was very significant for what would then later happen in kindergarten. And there were definitely some missed moments of very structured foundational literacy that just was not a significant part or focus of that instruction. And that concerned me. So that required me to then do some things in my home because I had that ability. But I thought about the parents that didn't have that ability. So I did bring it up to the school administration at that time, and it was kind of like, "You know, it's OK if they wanna do it. We don't wanna put too much pressure on them." But I understanding the sense of urgency with early literacy and reading, that was just not a good enough response. So then fast-forward to kindergarten. Again, we're still in the pandemic and the decision at the private school that she was attending was one hour of instruction. In kindergarten. And I remember getting the schedule and I'm like, "OK, so where is the foundational elements of reading being taught? Because it's not on this schedule." So in the beginning of the school year, I remember calling the teacher and calling the administrator and having a conversation with them. And it was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, it's OK; you know, they'll pick it up, and you know, things will level out...." And I'm watching my kid, who went from three years old reading a book effortlessly to like now, like, kind of hesitating. So then I became very heightened and alert and maybe some—I was putting a lot of pressure on her and maybe that also contributed, because I was seeing what was missing in her classroom. So then I'm trying to fulfill those things while also working online <laugh> , and then also trying to make sure that I'm teaching my daughter at the same time. So it was definitely a very eye-opening moment. But I think what was powerful about it was that it gave me insight into the parents and the community that we were serving in Philadelphia as well. And while my daughter was over here getting one hour of instruction, I'm sitting in kindergarten classrooms—because we're now virtual—and I'm watching amazing instruction that is happening and foundational skills are being explicitly taught in some of the classrooms that I was observing. So that definitely put me on edge with my daughter's school. Like, no, I'm seeing this in other kindergarten classrooms, and even though it's a different space—they're virtually—but I'm seeing the teachers really go through those foundational skills elements and then also providing those rich, knowledge-based conversations and stories. Whereas my daughter is not getting that. So I think for me, there was an internal conflict of "here is what I'm providing and supporting in my organization where I work," and then I'm looking at what my daughter's receiving, and they're not lining up. So I made a decision, right? We made a decision to move her into a public school, where she is now, and I can say that I can see the difference in the instruction that she's being provided, and they are really taking this Science of Reading approach to instruction. And they are very diligent. Um, from the very beginning they started MTSS groups, they've provided us at-home resources that we are reinforcing, and I could definitely see some shifts and some strengths in my daughter's reading ability now.

Susan Lambert: 18:12

That's amazing. That's great. And you were able to identify that, just because you have the background. So let's talk a little bit about Philadelphia's story. So, you know, you're taking on a new role during a really difficult time. What was that like to walk into this new position during this time and unrest? And, and what was your approach?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 18:34

So for me it was excitement, because for many years I always wanted to get into how curriculum and instruction was thinking about students with disabilities. For me, it was opportunity, to really dig deep and bring that inclusive perspective to curriculum. And then not only was I overseeing—I'm overseeing curriculum and instruction, but I'm also overseeing our multilingual office. For me, it created opportunity for innovation and to really bring that inclusive approach at Tier 1 for all students, because now we're trying to respond to the pandemic. And those practices, and those evidence-based practices that I shared early on as a special education teacher, that was just something that we naturally did in special ed. It now becomes the focus of what is needed for all students.

Susan Lambert: 19:31

Yeah. And Philadelphia was already sort of starting to embrace the Science of Reading before you stepped in, right?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 19:39

Yes.

Susan Lambert: 19:39

Where were they in the journey?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 19:42

So, prior to me stepping in, what was established was a English and language arts framework. And what a framework is, it's the district's position with evidence-based practice and research, around reading instruction. So that was already developed and the Science of Reading had already been rooted into that framework. So when I came on board , the priority for the organization was focused on curriculum and the curriculum equity initiative So now not only do we have an instructional framework that encompasses special education, that encompasses English language development, that is rooted in the Science of Reading, we've now been able to align curriculum that also includes these elements that wasn't previously there before. So for me, the transition into , curriculum and instruction created opportunity to put students that have been historically represented in that achievement gap at the forefront of our work. And that was also related to, again, where we were as a country, and really reckoning with some of this social unrest and how it was contributing to how we are examining our work. In many atmospheres, right? So in many sectors, many organizations began to make these equity stands. So it gave us opportunity to really put those children at the forefront of how we were looking at instruction for all students in our school district. And I say "all students," and I say "students that have been represented in the achievement gap"—I have to say those things in combination, because we don't want to lose in "all students" that there are students that have been historically failing in our systems.

Susan Lambert: 21:30

Right.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 21:30

And absent of making sure that we are addressing and supporting the needs of those students, and just putting it under this "all" umbrella, I find that we lose sight of those children. So I say those things together. And my staff, we frequently engage in dialogue around what do we mean by "all students." And I go back and forth, even when I'm looking at equity statements that say "all students," because equity is very clear that it's about the specific needs of specific students. And I think it's important for us to stay focused on that.

Susan Lambert: 22:03

Yeah, that's a really good reminder. And I know you brought that into developing curricular frameworks. And what specific things did you build into those frameworks, then? That's an example of incorporating more Science of Reading practices?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 22:23

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things, before I even get into how we designed those curricular frameworks, it was really important to make sure that the people, meaning the staff that were doing this work, that they were rooted and understood the Science of Reading. So all of the members that were a part of our ELA team were all trained in the Science of Reading through an organization that has structurally built a model for how educators learn about the Science of Reading. So that was something that had to be done first, to make sure that we were all on the same page, and we all clearly understood what was needed, moving forward. While I had some people that were a part of designing that initial body of work, there were still new members that joined my staff that had not received that level of development. So understanding and building that knowledge base of your workforce around the Science of Reading was definitely critical before we even got into engaging our curricular framework. So with our curricular framework, and our K—3 band, we want it to be—we had a variety of programs. And I love to have this conversation about programs, because a lot of people have this stance that they purchased one program, and that one program is gonna do all the things for all the kids. And Susan, we all know that that is not the case.

Susan Lambert: 23:47

That's right.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 23:47

Right. So we had all of these various programs that were rated Green materials, and people were using them— they were using them, I'll say this, they were using them in various consistencies. I won't say that they were using them in terms of how the program may have been designed. So I'll say that.

Susan Lambert: 24:06

Yep.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 24:06

But we understood that it wasn't just, "I need a phonics program and I need to pair the phonics program with another basal reader." There was also a phonemic awareness piece that was just not even being addressed. So in designing a curriculum, it gave us opportunity to be more explicit and pull these resources together, rather than having them very disconnected.

Susan Lambert: 24:30

Ah, that makes sense.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 24:31

And I think that that was the powerful point of really designing your own curriculum, because once you've identified a gap, you now have to fill that gap with something that you have identified as missing. So that was one of the pieces, in terms of the Science of Reading and the evidence-based component in our K—3 band . The other piece was we really wanted to bring this culturally and linguistic approach to our curriculum. So we adopted Dr. Gholdy Muhammad's Five Pursuits, and those five pursuits have been embedded throughout our curricular units. And she focuses on skill, identity, knowledge-building, criticality, and joy. So those five elements are also a part of our curricular framework, in addition to—as a special educator, something that I found frequently when I was meeting with instructional resource provider companies, we would ask them about resources for students with disabilities and how do we specially design instruction for students with disabilities, and frequently met with crickets.

Susan Lambert: 25:41

Hmm .

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 25:41

And it would be silence. And I would be like, "OK, is there anything that you offer for students with disabilities?" We rarely found that there was a core resource that even considered students with disabilities. There would sometimes be resources for English language learners. There would sometimes be embedded resources for MTSS. But rarely did we find anything that really considered students with disabilities. Our curricular framework has given us an opportunity to bring in those inclusive practices for students with disabilities, as well as our English language learners at Tier 1.

Susan Lambert: 26:18

Ah , OK. So you start there. Always start there.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 26:22

Right. It's now not waiting for a student to be identified and evaluated and determined they have a disability to get specially designed instruction. We're focusing on those practices at Tier 1. And that's in our design phase, Susan. And I wanna be very clear with our audience, because some folks may say, "Well, why isn't Philadelphia already progressing?" We are in our early design phases.

Susan Lambert: 26:47

Yeah.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 26:48

And in a large system—and Dr. Doug Reeves talked about this in one of your previous episodes—he talked about implementation science. And I believe that that is where we are now: really making sure that we're getting clear and focused on what it is that we are doing and what we're not doing. He talked about de-implementation. Right? And how are we abandoning those things that no longer serve the needs of the students that we have, and how are we doubling down on the things that we know is effective for our students? And that is where we are at this juncture.

Susan Lambert: 27:25

I love that. And Doug Reeves...man, you're preaching it. He's gonna love what you're saying here. And I love how you reference the fact that, oh, people could look and say, "Why isn't Philadelphia progressing?" Well, you know what, you are progressing! But sometimes, being able to see the results of that progress takes time. So the fact that you're building and going slow, then, to go fast, or whatever other analogy we wanna use.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 27:55

Yeah. And I get the sense of urgency, Susan, because there's definitely a—from the moment that I sat in this seat, I understood the sense of urgency. I understand the sense of urgency, because there are young people that are sitting on the other side waiting to receive those things that we are creating. Right?

Susan Lambert: 28:11

Yep.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 28:12

But there's also, again, implementation science. There's also humans that are involved in this. And we can't forget the human aspect. That was one of the other things that is important to us, as we move forward as an organization, is not forgetting the humanity in the work that we're doing. A lot of times when you're in a large system, and you're leading at a large system like this, it can become very robotic and like a machine. You do this, you get this. You do this, you get this. But there's a human aspect, that if you have not considered that human aspect, you could very well end up in the same place that you are trying to move away from. So I think one of the important parts is bringing that human aspect to what we are doing. And I mean, in every vein of the system. And one of the ways, and one of the things that helps me to do that, is staying connected with our students. Our students give us the best data. And even at this level, connecting with our students and really understanding what our students are facing is what gives me insight. And really gives me hope, because we have a generation of young people that are fired up and they are ready. And I think that we have to equip them with the tools to move forward. Because they are not—I said during the pandemic, that was our young people. Those were our young people that were out there that were protesting. So they had had enough. And we have to listen to our young people in order to be able to move forward , with that sense of urgency that is required.

Susan Lambert: 29:54

And that starts right away when we start instructing them on how to read, because we need literate young people to be able to do this work, too.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 30:04

And it's connected. Again, one of the things that—as we begin to evolve as an organization, is that literacy is connected to their liberation. And I think about—and I didn't get into this—and I think about here in Philadelphia , during the pandemic, I had an opportunity to learn about Black literary societies that existed here in Philadelphia. And these were groups of people, Black people, that against all, defying all the odds against them, they were coming together to read and write for their freedom. And for their liberation. So for me, liberation is connected to our students being literate. And that is, again, another sense of urgency: that in order for our students to truly be free, we understand the power that reading has in their future and their ability to be able to read and be liberated.

Susan Lambert: 30:58

Very beautifully said. What's the next step for, for you all, in Philadelphia, now that you're working through this design phase? What's your very next step?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 31:10

So we have a new superintendent, Dr. Watlington, that is leading our system now. And we just had a strategic team that worked together to design some recommendations for our organization. So we have those recommendations. And as a part of those recommendations, we are developing a strategic plan, and a part of that strategic plan—again, Dr . Watlington has been a strong advocate for the Science of Reading—so we are continuing our work rooted in the Science of Reading, and developing this new strategic plan. And while it's a five-year strategic plan, we do have a sense of urgency. And I'm sure within that, there are gonna be benchmarks and hundred-day plans and smaller plans, to make sure that we are actually doubling down again on the things that truly matter, that are gonna lead to outcomes for our students here in the school district of Philadelphia.

Susan Lambert: 32:00

I love that. It's a great reminder that urgency doesn't mean necessarily that we have to do things quickly and get them done quickly. Right? Urgency is really about commitment. Making the move to commitment, knowing that it's going to take a long time. It's something that we have to continue to stay focused on year after year after year. So that's a great reminder. Well, what advice do you have for other district leaders who are transitioning or trying to build support for Science of Reading? You've given us a a few things already, but what advice would you have?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 32:37

My first would be: Tune out the noise and educate yourself. There's a lot of rhetoric and a lot of conversation, decades of conversation, about what is best for reading for our students. I think it's important as a leader that you educate yourself first. And you really take that inquiry-based stance, to really understanding what the Science of Reading is telling us, rather than waiting for someone else to sell you a false hope or a false dream. As leaders, we have to educate ourselves first, so that when we're making decisions, we're making decisions from a place that we truly understand, and not being , persuaded by something that may appear as the right approach. Right? So I think the first step is, again, tuning out the noise, and really educating yourself, and taking that inquiry-based approach to understanding. Again, you have to truly—you have to strategically abandon the things that are not working!

Susan Lambert: 33:37

Yeah. <laugh>, that's so hard.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 33:40

It's so hard! And I think people really believe in certain things. Like, even when I was dealing with my daughter's teachers and the administrators, they loved her. They definitely loved her. I did not believe that they did not love her. That wasn't my issue. I believe that they didn't understand the impact, because some students were benefiting from their program. And I think that when schools see that some students are benefiting, they continue to do the things that they're doing, because some students are benefiting. But if we're only in the business of educating some students, then what are we really doing? I think it's important to look at the students that are not benefiting, and really identifying the things that work for that population of students, rather than continuing with practices that are not meeting the needs of the students that we're serving. But definitely abandoning those things that are not leading to the outcomes that you desire to see. There has to be , my next point, is that there has to be a culture of collective responsibility and accountability for students with disabilities and our English language learners. I firmly believe, again, if we get it right for those students, there are so many other students that will benefit from what we're doing with our English language learners as well as our students with disabilities. And we have to all be collectively responsible and accountable for that population of students. And again, approaching that with a sense of urgency to address their needs. And then finally, I just say that there has to be a clear vision for what this looks like, and districts really have to get clear on their vision around what quality reading instruction looks like for their organization, and make sure that it penetrates through every layer of the organization. And that requires education. I didn't talk about this, but in Pennsylvania, PA Code 22, <Chapter> 49, this bill was just passed requiring institutions of higher education to provide structured literacy.

Susan Lambert: 35:46

That's right.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 35:47

As a part of their programs. Right? So now in 2022—that's why I said the pandemic offered some gifts. Because it required people to really get focused and really double down on what works for students, as it pertains to reading. Just having that bill in place, I think, that also gives us a position to really help people to understand the urgency and what the Science of Reading has to offer for our children.

Susan Lambert: 36:12

Hmm . Well, I don't know quite how to say this, Dr. Ny, but your passion and your commitment to kids is amazing, to literacy is amazing. I just wanna thank you for the work that you're doing and w ill continue to do. And you know, this season we're really focusing on the podcast about building infrastructure and systems to support students. But really the heart of the work is really the students. So if I say to you the phrase, "It's all about the students," what does that mean to you and to your work?

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 36:48

One of my favorite sayings is, "If you don't love me, you can't teach me." And I know that sounds very fluffy, and it sounds like blah, but I believe when you love someone, there's nothing that will stop you from doing what is needed for them. If we think about the love that we have for young people and why we get into this profession, because we know that there's a lot of information out there about people leaving this profession. It's challenging, it's difficult. But we have to remember who we are serving and why we are serving them. And the best way to do that is talk to a young person. And I believe our young people will be able to tell you what it is that they need and what it is that they want. So for me, it's love at the heart of that. It's truly taking a laser focus on their needs and not assuming it's a one-size -fits-all. Because as a special educator, what I found that there were students that had a very strong knowledge or language base, and they needed that more systematic approach for those foundational skills elements. I had other students that had a strong foundational base, and they needed that knowledge-building base. So it's truly understanding the needs of young people and responding to those needs.

Susan Lambert: 38:25

Well, thank you so much for those wise words. And again, we appreciate you joining us on this episode. Thank you.

Nyshawana Francis-Thompson: 38:33

Thank you, Susan. Take care.

Susan Lambert: 38:35

Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Dr. Nyshawana Francis-Thompson, Deputy Chief of Curriculum and Instruction in the School District of Philadelphia. Check out the show notes for more on the School District of Philadelphia, as well as more from Dr . Ny. We'll have a link to a recent presentation on equity in curriculum, as well as a link to her dissertation on MTSS in Bermuda. We'd love to know what you thought of this episode. The best place to keep in touch is our Facebook discussion group, Science of Reading: The Community. Next time on the show, we're doing something just a little bit different.

Cartoon-y voice #1: 39:15

Hey, Dot, what badge am I gonna get today?

Cartoon-y voice #2: 39:17

Today's Alpha Badge is called...the O Vowel Badge.

Cartoon-y voice #1: 39:24

Oh , yes. Obviously.

Susan Lambert: 39:27

We're going behind the scenes of Reading Buddies, a foundational reading TV series from our friends at The Reading League. Stay tuned for more, and thanks again for listening.