S6 E11: What I should have learned in college with Donna Hejtmanek

Throughout this season, we've explored different tiers of the education system. In this episode, we look at the role higher education plays in equipping teachers with the right training and tools. Our guest Donna Hejtmanek, a retired special education teacher and reading specialist, shares her disappointing first-hand experience of going back to school at the age of 58—an experience that made her realize many universities weren't training educators in the Science of Reading. Donna tells Susan the story of how she came to create the incredibly popular Facebook group Science of Reading–What I Should Have Learned in College, and discusses what it will take to change higher education.

Additional resources:

• Facebook group: Science of Reading—What I Should Have Learned in College
• Stephanie Stollar’s group Stronger Together: The Alliance for Reading Science in Higher Education
• Facebook group: Training Reading Rocket Scientists
• Facebook group: Science of Reading for Administrators—What Teachers Want You to Know
• Find Donna on Twitter.
• Find Donna on LinkedIn.

Quotes:

“The door's been cracked. It has to happen and it has to happen by having relationships with people. You just can’t walk in and just say, you know, this is the way it needs to be done. It's a slow process.” —Donna Hejtmanek

“If you're trained in a certain way, you're only exposing yourself to those researchers doing those things and that type of information. And so you don't know other sources of information of other researchers and what else might be going on.” —Donna Hejtmanek

“Learning the Science of Reading is not a, ‘You get it in one day.’ It's not like that. It's a journey and it takes time to assimilate everything you read and then turning that into a practice and shifting the thinking of millions of people.” —Donna Hejtmanek

“You get better and better at it the longer you do it. So if we just stay stagnant and are closed-minded to new things that are out there, then we can't grow.” —Donna Hejtmanek

Announcing the 2023 Science of Reading Star Awards!
The Science of Reading Star Awards are back to honor and celebrate another group of outstanding educators. Do you know someone who has empowered their students with the Science of Reading? Whether that someone is you or a colleague, nominate them to be the next star!

Transcript

Susan Lambert: 0:35

This is Susan Lambert, and welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast. On this sixth season of the show, we've been highlighting how different parts of the education system can contribute to spreading science-based literacy instruction. Since we started this season, we've heard over and over about how we need to do an episode focused on higher education and the work being done to change the way colleges and universities teach literacy instruction. Well, it's finally time. I'm thrilled to share that my guest this time around is Donna Hejtmanek, founder of the nearly 200,000-person Facebook group, Science of Reading: What I should have learned in college. Donna shares the story of starting this group, and she talks about the challenges that come with trying to change higher education. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Donna Hejtmanek. Well, Donna, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode.

Donna Hejtmanek: 1:39

Thanks for having me. It's a , it's an honor to be here.

Susan Lambert: 1:42

Oh, no . It's an honor for us to have you here. It feels like your Facebook group, Science of Reading, the Facebook group, like we share, we share participants. So many of our listeners are gonna be excited to hear from you and your journey in Science of Reading. I'd love for you—so you were a teacher first, right?

Donna Hejtmanek: 2:01

Oh, yes. Mm-hmm. Many years.

Susan Lambert: 2:03

Many years. I would love, before we talk about how you came to know the Science of Reading, to hear your journey of how you became a teacher. Did you always want to be a teacher?

Donna Hejtmanek: 2:14

I always wanted to be a teacher, although I had so little confidence in high school when I went , I was telling my girlfriend's mom I wanted to be a teacher's aid and she said, "Oh, no, no, you're going to be a teacher." She says, "It'll pay a lot more."

Susan Lambert: 2:32

I love that story.

Donna Hejtmanek: 2:35

And the other story, in high school, when I went to my counselor and I said, "I'd like to be a special ed teacher." And he looked at me, he goes, "Do you know what that is?" "Yeah, I do." So, so funny things you remember, right?

Susan Lambert: 2:51

I'm wondering, when you were first a teacher, did you teach Science of Reading? Were you trained in Science of Reading? Or how did you actually come to the Science of Reading?

Donna Hejtmanek: 3:00

Oh , no, I did not. And I have another story about that as well. So, in '76, I got outta school, you know, and you're just so full of excitement. You just can't wait to be a teacher. And I walked into my trailer, which was where I was at. It was on a naval base. And I walk in and I, you know, you have to set your room up and I'm all excited. And, then I'm thinking, wait a minute, how do I, how do I teach these kids to read? I mean , cuz I was given like the seven year olds who were really low functioning and they weren't catching on. It was a self-contained classroom back in the day.

Susan Lambert: 3:39

Yeah.

Donna Hejtmanek: 3:39

So what does any young person do? You call your mom, right? So I called my mom, I said, "So how do you , how do you teach kids to read?" And she said, "Well, you start with the letters and the sounds and, and then you work from there." And I'm thinking, sounds good to me. And she wasn't a teacher, you know, but I think that's how reading was taught back then. You know, people knew what to do, intuitively. So 10 years later, I'm still not figuring it all out. It's not coming together for me, right? And I taught in the Chicago area and I went to a training there from Project Read out of Minnesota. Dr. Green and Dr. Enfield, they had this company called Project Read. It was basically all, it was a phonics-based approach, Orton-Gillingham-type lesson. Very structured, very systematic. And I will never forget how empowered I felt after that training. I was making my sand trays and my blending boards and, you know, all the stuff, finding all my decodable texts. And it was just so exciting to start using that and being effective and having some real, you know, meat and potatoes that you could work with with kids and get them to move, noticeably move, as opposed to using the basals that we used to have back then. And it was kind of a slower, louder method, you know, just go slower and just speak up and they'll get it. Well, no, they weren't getting it because as we know now, we weren't getting to the heart of their issues.

Susan Lambert: 5:19

Yeah. Were you a special ed teacher at that point when you came—.

Donna Hejtmanek: 5:21

Yes. I graduated from Illinois State University with a special ed degree, and then a year later I went and got another degree, a master's, but this one was in—I just didn't know what to do. I was going to get a reading specialist degree and I just never did . I don't know why I didn't. So I went into behavior, emotional behavior. That was my first master's , you know, then I went to school again and got another master's and that was in administration and that was definitely not the route to go, just sayin.'

Susan Lambert: 5:54

For you, you mean?

Donna Hejtmanek: 5:55

For me, yeah.

Susan Lambert: 5:58

Although some of the work that you're doing now is very, maybe not administration, very, very much leadership. So —

Donna Hejtmanek: 6:04

That's true.

Susan Lambert: 6:05

So how is it that, I mean, your Facebook group is all about getting, well, the name of it is all about making sure that teachers are prepared with a nod to the fact, not even a nod, explicitly saying that teachers aren't getting this in college. When is it that you personally came to realize that there's a problem with how this is being taught in higher ed?

Donna Hejtmanek: 6:33

I think from day one, I just didn't know what to do. When you have to call your mother up to ask, there's something wrong there. And so 10 years in, I finally had something that I could sink my teeth into. So that was '88 and that's when the whole language movement was in full force. And then I was just kinda stringing along. And when it really hit home was I became a reading interventionist in a Title One school. And so, because I had moved to Wisconsin, I didn't have the certification I needed, so I had to go back to school. So this is in 2011. So, went back to school and had a virtual, you know, online program. And I wanna say no one should go back to school when they're 57 or 58. It's just not the smart thing to do. But there I am, and I'm in this program in Wisconsin, and it's basically a reading recovery program. And I was so upset because not only was I spending $1,100 every semester, I wasn't learning anything, that I could use that I know personally knew, was not going to be, I just knew this was not going to be effective for kids. Especially when you're getting the kids that are highly at risk. You're getting the kids at risk when you're an interventionist. You know, we're their last hope 'til they go to special ed. And I knew I wasn't getting what I needed. And it was, it was for, to be a reading teacher, a 316 license is what they call it in Wisconsin. So that was my first semester. And , I'll have to tell you this funny story because it was, it has served me well in many ways , but not at the time. So I shared with a Wisconsin advocate what I was being taught and showed him the little bookmark that we were being told to use. You know, "Look at the picture, what makes sense, get your mouth ready," you know?

Susan Lambert: 8:43

Mm -hmm .

Donna Hejtmanek: 8:45

So he, on my behalf, filed a complaint with our Department of Public Instruction. And soon after that, within days, I got a phone call from the University, and it was not a very pleasant conversation. They were asking me why I didn't go to the department head and just really grilling me. And I didn't know what to say. I mean, I had no idea that that was going to happen. And I was on the phone with this person for over an hour and my husband said "I had to peel you off the ceiling" 'cause I was so upset. And they asked me, could I find another program? "Is there another place you could go?"

Susan Lambert: 9:28

Wow.

Donna Hejtmanek: 9:28

I mean, I've never been kicked out of a program, right? So I said to them , no, this is, it was the only program online at the time. So it was a long two years. I'm sure my name was brought up, you know, my name's so unique anyway, I'm sure they knew who I was. But back to my point of how it served me well, because I knew what the system was and I knew that our schools of education were not giving our teachers, especially the reading teachers, the knowledge they needed. When I became an advocate legislatively and when I testified, I could speak with authority, because I had been that person going through that program. And I know for a fact that that program was insufficient in training teachers effectively.

Susan Lambert: 10:18

Hmm . Tell me a little bit more about, well, first of all, you had that sort of Science of Reading, they didn't call it back then, but that Science of Reading training back when you were in Chicago and building on that, so seeing that discrepancy between what you knew worked and what the research said, and this sort of three queuing, reading recovery kind of stuff that you were being taught, that was a waste of money for you to get the certificate so that you could actually do the job.

Donna Hejtmanek: 10:45

$7,000.

Susan Lambert: 10:47

Wow.

Donna Hejtmanek: 10:47

Mm-hmm. It's very frustrating.

Susan Lambert: 10:50

I've heard other folks , Margaret Goldberg from the Right to Read project is one that comes to mind, that she similarly talks about how frustrated she is spending that much money and then to have to go find the knowledge yourself, and not being able to pay for some of it because you can't afford to pay for it. You already paid for this ridiculous degree that didn't teach you what you needed to be taught. So I'm sure our listeners out there can really sort of relate to that.

Donna Hejtmanek: 11:20

Oh, I hear that all the time on the Facebook group, all the time. And it's not just for, it's not undergrad, it's for masters and doctorates. It's all the way up.

Susan Lambert: 11:34

All the way up. Yeah.

Donna Hejtmanek: 11:35

Mm-hmm.

Susan Lambert: 11:36

Hopefully things are changing. We'll come back to that in a minute. But you mentioned, you sort of dropped a little fun fact in there about speaking in front of the legislature.What was that about? I'm sure our listeners would love to hear that.

Donna Hejtmanek: 11:50

So , it's a funny thing. I moved to Wisconsin in '04 not knowing a soul, but my work , I was a transition specialist and in my work I got to meet a lot of people around the state. And, you know, one thing led to another and you just start talking to people. And there's a community of advocates here in Wisconsin I got to meet and work with. And one thing led to another and I served on a Right to Read legislative committee, and I was appointed by the governor for that. And then in 2018, I served on a dyslexia study committee, and that's where the law Act 86 came out. It was our very first dyslexia, the word "dyslexia" was used in Wisconsin in a guidebook. It's a handbook for dyslexia, Unrelated Conditions is what it's called. And then because of that, I had to do lots of legislation , lobbying and testifying to support the bill. So, you know, there we are, crazy women running around the Capitol building, going, knocking on doors and talking to the people and all the legislators and selling our story and trying to get people to understand what's going on.

Susan Lambert: 13:12

What's interesting about that, and I remember talking to you about this in the pre-call when we had a chat, is going from the high school kid that wasn't confident enough to say, "I wanna be a teacher" and said, "I wanna be a teacher's aid," to knocking on legislator's doors. Could you ever have imagined—

Donna Hejtmanek: 13:29

No.

Susan Lambert: 13:29

That you would've come to, to that work?

Donna Hejtmanek: 13:34

No. No. And, you know, life brings you good and bad things. And this has been definitely an incredible blessing for me and gives me chills to even think of , I mean, I can't believe how my life has changed, but more importantly, how we've been able to influence so many thousands and thousands of parents, teachers, and students around the world.

Susan Lambert: 14:04

Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about that because that is the story of the Facebook group, right?

Donna Hejtmanek: 14:11

Right.

Susan Lambert: 14:11

Which is what all of our listeners will relate to you with, is this Facebook group. How did you come to decide, I'm gonna start a Facebook group? Where did that come from?

Donna Hejtmanek: 14:22

Well I've told this story many times, and I hope my, our listeners have never heard this. But it was the summer of 2019, and I had probably that week, I'm pretty sure it was that week. I had testified to the Senate Education Committee about the dyslexia handbook. And I remember sitting there saying, "I'm gonna write a book one day, and it's gonna be called The Science of Reading: What I Should Have Learned in College," because I had just talked about, I shared with them my experience at that reading certification that I had to get. And yet the Colleges of Education weren't talking to us, right? They weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing. So it made me mad and it made me upset. And so I didn't even know what a Facebook group was. I had no idea. And I was on my computer looking at my personal Facebook, and I see this thing on the side in the menu and it says groups, groups, pages, and whatever the menu is. And I'm like, "Hmm, what's that?" So I clicked on it and it says, "You could start a group." Like, hmm, let me see what this is all about. And then you have to invite all your friends. So I'm clicking away inviting all my friends, I don't know, maybe 30 people. And before you know it, it was like 50. And, I'm saying to my husband, "I got like 50 people that are following me." And then, and it just kept going up and up and up . It was just, you know, I look back, I wish I had recordings of how crazy excited I was, you know. But now—

Susan Lambert: 16:10

So the name of the Facebook group, say it again?

Donna Hejtmanek: 16:13

Science of Reading: What I Should Have Learned in College.

: 16:15

"What I should have learned in college" was supposed to be the title of a book and it turned into a Facebook group.

Donna Hejtmanek: 16:21

Right. Well, I'm not a writer by any means. And, you know, books are static. So this has worked out great.

Susan Lambert: 16:30

And I think you told me stories of people that have, like—this is beyond just a Facebook group now, right? Like people across the country and all over the world have reached out to you because of this.

Donna Hejtmanek: 16:41

Yes. I had a woman reach out a couple weeks ago. She's from Botswana, which is in southern Africa, and she is highly motivated to put a dyslexia awareness symposium together. So I thought, hmm, that sounds interesting. So I tapped Jennifer Hasser from Kendore Learning 'cause she has a heart for kids in Africa, 'cause she's done some work there. And so we're going to meet every other week and we're looking at doing some sort of—and I suggested, she wanted it to be live, and I said, "Hmm, that's probably not gonna work out for most people." But, you know, we can shrink the world, certainly, with Zoom. And so that's what we're gonna do. So it's been, that's been cool. I've got a lot of stories from people. I talked to a woman in Antarctica, I mean, it's just—.

Susan Lambert: 17:37

Wow.

Donna Hejtmanek: 17:38

I know.! It's just...so, Brazil, one Sunday morning I was talking to a woman from Brazil, and just from the page we've spawned, most of the states have their own Science of Reading blank, blank, blank, you know, some of them did not wanna take the name because of its kind of snarky sound to it. And I understand that. So they created their own, but they created one, right? And that's the point. We've had a lot of offshoots from that, an administrator page, Science of Reading for administrators, Stephanie Stoller started Reading Rockets, teaching reading rocket science, something like that. It's for higher ed. And , um, oh gosh, SoR K1–2, Courtney Niblick started that. I mean, it goes on and on.

Susan Lambert: 18:29

That's amazing. And what do you think that , for those listeners that don't know about the Facebook group, which I'm sure there's not that many, but you know, from your point of view, what do you think this Facebook group is offering folks?

Donna Hejtmanek: 18:45

Right from the get-go, I wanted it to be a place that both teachers and parents could come to for just honest discussion and just a safe place to be, to discuss or ask about their needs or, "What can I do if," that sort of thing. That's what we were looking for. It's been really hard striking that balance because not everyone that's there is there for the mission. They're there for their own way to have their ability to speak their side of the story and so there's mixed messages going out there and sometimes the, the post can get a little heated. And so we have to monitor that closely. But I feel it's important to have a relationship with the people that are on the , even though it's hard, you know, there's so many people, but I want my moderators and myself to be trusted and to be looked upon as a source of information. And if we don't know, we know where to go to find that information.

Susan Lambert: 19:55

Yeah. You talk about, you have some moderators that help you out. When did you realize this is bigger than Donna can handle?

Speaker 2: 20:06

Oh, that's the funny part, too. So I didn't know, I didn't know anything about putting, doing a Facebook group. So we started in August of 2019. I realized in January that there were these things called moderators!

Susan Lambert: 20:21

Somebody can help me!

Donna Hejtmanek: 20:25

Someone can help me! Because at that point I was just spending hours on my own.

Susan Lambert: 20:32

Every day?

Donna Hejtmanek: 20:33

Every day.

Susan Lambert : 20:33

Seven days a week?

Donna Hejtmanek: 20:34

Every single day. So I started finding moderators, you know, kind of like a job application. I would say "I need some moderators" and people would raise their hand. And we have a really good, strong group of teachers, researchers, moms that are so dedicated. And we have our own little, you know, a science moderator message group. So, you know, we don't know whether we should approve a post. We talk about it and talk about it, if it's going to be a good thing or not a good thing. And because we're all professionals, we're all in the same, we all wanna know interesting things. And so we ask each other questions, "Have you heard about this?" And "What do you know about this?" And it's just been a great group. I really enjoy the moderators.

Susan Lambert: 21:24

So how many moderators do you have that help you?

Donna Hejtmanek: 21:27

I wanna say 17 now.

Susan Lambert: 21:29

Wow. This is like a machine!

Donna Hejtmanek: 21:33

It is! It is. I mean, we have, on a busy day, we could have over a hundred posts to approve.

Susan Lambert: 21:44

Wow.

Donna Hejtmanek: 21:44

And on, you know, a typical day, it might be 30 or 40. But that's still a lot. And here's another issue we've had, because we're constantly getting new people that are really new to the science, they're asking very, very much similar questions. You know, "What's the best decodeable?" "what's a good phonics program?" And so we've canned those answers and we refer them to our guide, because we're considered a social learning group, which is a different group. A social learning group has guides and files where you can archive posts. And so we refer people to those posts because you don't wanna lose your audience, either, with redundant questions.

Susan Lambert: 22:30

Wow.

Donna Hejtmanek: 22:30

But I always remind the moderators, it's not new to us, but it's new to them.

Susan Lambert : 22:35

That's right.

Donna Hejtmanek: 22:36

And our dear teachers are coming and they are brand-spanking-new to the science, have never heard about it, don't know what it is, "What can I do, how do I start using it?" Get that all the time.

Susan Lambert: 22:50

So for somebody that was on Facebook and didn't know what a group was, it feels like now you are like a super user of the Facebook groups. And I wonder, in hindsight, if you're like, "Oh my goodness, what did I do? What did I open up?"

Donna Hejtmanek: 23:08

I think about that. I had someone tell me or say to me the other day, "Have you thought about who you're going to leave this to?"

Susan Lambert: 23:19

Oh!

Donna Hejtmanek: 23:19

Oh!

Susan Lambert: 23:20

Oh.

Donna Hejtmanek: 23:21

So, no, I haven't thought about that. Because it's a growing animal that is not going to stop. And I don't want it to stop. It needs to stay alive and serve its mission.

Susan Lambert : 23:36

Yeah. I think that's clear that it's serving its mission. And I think a couple things here that really stand out to me is, I'm not sure that people that are engaging in the Facebook actually understand how big and how much work it actually takes. And until you're in the thick of having to monitor and monitor and monitor and continue to grow this thing and move it forward in a positive direction. And so for all of our listeners and all the users of that Facebook group, we wanna tell you thank you for what you do because it's a big job.

Donna Hejtmanek: 24:12

You're welcome. Thank you for saying that.

Susan Lambert: 24:15

And the other thing thing is, is that I really feel like this has been a mechanism to sort of crack open this issue of higher education, because it's been really hard to change things in higher ed. Do you agree with that?

Donna Hejtmanek: 24:32

Oh, yes. I'm experiencing that here in Wisconsin. It's been a challenge. I don't think I mentioned this, but I just resigned from this position as a president of the Literacy Task Force of Wisconsin. And we're a nonprofit that promotes evidence-based practices through trainings and fundraising to give scholarships to teachers. So that's our mission. And in that role, I've been trying to work with higher ed and we have been successful in getting some higher ed folks to the table to talk about where they're at. As I mentioned earlier, the process legislatively was not pretty. We've had lots of opposition in Wisconsin from our Wisconsin State Reading Association. And so they came and testified against us every single time we had a legislative hearing. And so I met a professor there that has actually done a 180 on her thinking, and now has a course in dyslexia , the actual first course in Wisconsin. And there's another gal , at another university, and she also has a course in dyslexia. There's another professor that we , I will tell you what convinced this professor was when I was working with a school district, and the school district asked me, she showed me a brochure about this reading program, the 316. And she says, "Is this Science of Reading aligned?" And I looked and I looked at the professor, and she was a Reading Recovery trained professor, you know, and I looked up her credentials and I said, "No, I don't think this is going to be fit our needs." And so that special ed director actually picked up the phone and talked to her and expressed why she would not be sending teachers to that program. And that opened the door for a discussion. And so we've had this discussion. I have a small cohort going, there's about seven or eight, or seven or eight or nine of us working together periodically to just have discussions about Science of Reading and how you could change your programming. I'm referring them to Mount St . Joseph's syllabi and their programming, and we talk about letters and, you know, getting advanced training that way. And they're very interested in doing that. So I think the door's been cracked and it has to happen. And it has to happen by having relationships with people. You just can't walk in and just say, you know, "This is the way it needs to be done." It's a slow process.

Susan Lambert: 27:30

Hmm . Can you articulate some of the barriers or, you know, some things that you encounter when you're talking to folks and helping them make this shift in thinking?

Donna Hejtmanek: 27:40

Sure. Um, well, it would be like someone came into your office and said, "You know what? I don't like the way you're doing this. It's not working for me. This is not effective." Right away, you're going to take a very defensive stance. Right? And that's what's going on. Higher ed has the ability to choose what they wanna teach. There's a term for it, I forgot what it's called. Um, academic freedom. And so you have that. And then I think people travel in different circles, different academic circles. So if you're trained in a certain way, you're only exposing yourself to those researchers doing those things and that type of information. And so you don't know other sources of information of other researchers and what else might be going on. And so you, you're in this very tight closed circle and you can't, that's a barrier, you know, change isn't—I just heard this quote the other day, I just love it. "Change is inevitable. Growth is optional."

Susan Lambert: 28:47

Oh, that's great.

Donna Hejtmanek: 28:48

Isn't it great?

Susan Lambert: 28:49

Yeah.

Donna Hejtmanek: 28:50

And it's so true. And I'm going through that right now with the , you know, the page. I'm looking at a speech-to-print approach. I've never even heard of it, but I'm looking at it and thinking, "Hmm, there's something to this." And I would be remiss if I didn't embrace change then, and having that closed mind, then I would be no better than the people we're trying to help change their thinking. So it works both ways.

Susan Lambert: 29:24

For sure. That's a great reminder to all of us. How do you feel, I mean, I'm sure teachers in your Facebook group and in other places are really expressing a frustration though about not getting the training that they need. Do you feel like university professors, literacy professors are hearing that or seeing that at all? Or not?

Donna Hejtmanek: 29:54

Well, I believe they are, certainly not as fast as I would like to see it happen, but it is happening. There was a summit, I don't think you were there though, the Reading League had a higher ed summit the day before the Reading League. There were, I don't know , 150, maybe 150 professors, higher ed folks that were there and some were new. That was the job. If you were coming, you had to bring someone who was new to it or interested in or curious about it. And so from that group, I know there's been another get together that is coming from that. So, and that's headed up by Stephanie Stoller and it , it's happening, but it's happening slowly, but it's happening. So that's the best part.

Susan Lambert: 30:52

I did miss that. And for our listeners, the Mount St . Joseph University does have on their website model syllabi, right? That folks can look at. And is Stephanie Stoller's group called STARS, do I have that right?

Donna Hejtmanek: 31:09

It is, and I can't remember what what it stands for.

Susan Lambert: 31:13

We will link in the show notes to that.

Donna Hejtmanek: 31:15

That'd be great.

Susan Lambert: 31:16

So that folks can check it out. Um, so with all of this, what do you think, you know, you say progress is slow. What do you think more is needed to make faster progress? Listen to me, it's always like, can we do this faster?

Donna Hejtmanek: 31:30

It should have been done yesterday.

Susan Lambert: 31:33

Yeah .

Donna Hejtmanek: 31:34

I just think it's just going to be a very slow process. Learning the Science of Reading is not a , you get it in one day. It's not like that. It's a journey and it takes time to assimilate everything you read and then turning that into a practice and shifting the thinking of millions of people is not easy. It's a big job and it's going to take decades. That's my prediction. I don't think I'm going to see the complete shift in my lifetime. But I am very hopeful that we can get some larger power to make it, you know, more accessible to teachers on a grander scale, i.e., you know, legislation through states. And there are several states, like Tennessee, North Carolina, Louisiana, Connecticut, have all passed legislation at the pre-service level and in-service level. And we need more of that.

Susan Lambert: 32:43

When you're thinking about sort of the Science of Reading momentum , " the movement" as the Reading League calls it, are you feeling hopeful that this is something more than just what people are saying is a pendulum swing?

Donna Hejtmanek: 32:58

Um, I've heard that it is , um, the name also, as good as it is, maybe we could add Science of Reading evidence, something like that. I mean, we know what happens with names. Common Core was a perfect example, right? And so we have to be very careful about that. People are threatened by it and they feel like it's just another pendulum swing, it'll go back, and again, it's that understanding of what you do with kids, I think . 'Cause once you know, you won't go back.

Susan Lambert: 33:38

Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so true. I wish our listeners could see your face when you said that. You got a deep sense of passion that came through, once you know that, you don't go back,

Donna Hejtmanek: 33:50

You don't go back. You do what's best for kids. All kids.

Susan Lambert: 33:57

Hmm . Yeah. And I'm kind of with you on that Science of Reading name, as it's become really ubiquitous and a little meaningless too, and it's not just about reading, it's about reading and writing, and—

Donna Hejtmanek: 34:13

E xactly.

Susan Lambert: 34:14

Word recognition and comprehension, and it's just kind of the whole package.

Donna Hejtmanek: 34:19

And that it's not just phonics, right? And that's why understanding the knowledge of what it is, is so critical. People have to know it's just not phonics. There's a whole lot to learn about how the brain learns to read and optimizing that for learners.

Susan Lambert: 34:43

And when we talk about the science part of it, just like you alluded to, is that it continues. We continue to learn nuances and different things. So it's not a...it is a journey. It's not a one and done . You just don't learn it and you're done and then you can go.

Donna Hejtmanek: 34:59

It's true .

Susan Lambert: 35:00

It's a continual state of improvement, right?

Donna Hejtmanek: 35:03

And especially for teachers, you know? I certainly am not the same teacher as my mother, you know , learning how do you teach a kid to read. If we don't grow, then there's something wrong. We're not doing something right. If we're not growing and adding to our toolbox in becoming more nuanced, or just developing better skills. Even the first five years of teaching is really hit or miss, you know, you really don't know . You're like, "I dunno if I'm doing this right!" You know, and it's just like anything else, you know, you get better and better at it the longer you do it. So if we just stay stagnant and are closed-minded to new things that are out there, then we can't grow.

Susan Lambert: 35:54

Hmm . That's so true. And that's so great about the Facebook group because you continue to, like I said, propel that movement forward so it's not sort of stuck or it doesn't have a negative sort of nasty flare that social media can sometimes get.

Donna Hejtmanek: 36:11

Right. We're working on that too. We want, we wanna bring out, it's called the Science of Reading. So we wanna make sure that we're bringing everything that's out there, any research that we hear, whether you agree with it or not, to the forefront. You know, it's the right thing to do

Susan Lambert: 36:28

And teachers don't often have access to that. That's the other thing too, is it's hard to get access.

Donna Hejtmanek: 36:34

The access, and the translation. It's true.

Susan Lambert: 36:38

So I just kinda wonder, this last question for you is, when you think about your Facebook group, what do you, what do you hope happens to it ? What are your goals?

Donna Hejtmanek: 36:49

To keep it alive, to keep people coming, to make sure it serves its mission and in a healthy way. You know, I, being, this is our third year and , almost three, not even three and a half , and I'm certainly not the same person I was three years ago. I do have a clearer head about it because I think for the first two years I just kept like, "What is happening, what is happening?" And now I realize that it's happened, and now what? And so I don't really have an answer for you because I'm not sure what the future holds. All I know is that the mission's going to continue. I'm gonna keep trying to bring guests on and hold events and to just keep moving forward the best I can.

Susan Lambert: 37:49

And if someday colleges of education were teaching all of the Science of Reading that teachers need to have to prepare them to be teachers in the classroom, do you think there's still gonna be a need for this Facebook group?

Donna Hejtmanek: 38:07

I would say yes. And the reason I say that is, is because science is always evolving. And so if this is a vehicle to get current information or to get information that you can use in your classroom, I'm hoping it stays alive.

Susan Lambert: 38:27

Hmm . I'm sure those folks that are, well I'm in that Facebook group too, but all of us hope it stays alive, too. And again, from all of the folks that are regular consumers of that Facebook group, we appreciate your willingness to click the group button on Facebook, figure out what that means, and then help this community grow . So thank you, Donna.

Donna Hejtmanek: 38:51

Yep . See what happens when you're curious?

Susan Lambert: 38:53

It is so true. It is so true. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate you and again, we appreciate for you for what you're doing in that Facebook group as well.

Donna Hejtmanek: 39:05

Thanks for the, this has been an honor and a privilege and I'm just so happy you had me on. Thanks so much.

Susan Lambert: 39:11

You're welcome. Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Donna Hejtmanek. Please check out the show notes for a link to the Facebook group Science of Reading: What I Should Have Learned in College. And if you haven't already, please join our Facebook community as well, Science of Reading: The Community. It's the best place to keep in touch with us. Next time on the show, we're speaking with Jasmine Rogers, a doctoral student at American University. She's been researching teacher beliefs and knowledge of Black English.

Jasmine Rogers: 39:45

A strength of children that are bi-dialectal is the similar strength that students that are bilingual, they have an ability to take language that is different from theirs and translate it. That right there is an asset.

Susan Lambert: 40:00

That's next time on Science of Reading: The Podcast. And thank you so much for listening.