After three years and more than 3 million downloads, Science of Reading: The Podcast recently conducted its first ever taping in front of a live audience. The recording took place on March 9, 2023, in New Orleans at the Plain Talk About Literacy and Learning conference. Susan Lambert was joined by none other than Kareem Weaver, NAACP activist, whose first appearance on this podcast remains an all-time favorite among listeners. This time around, Kareem gave Susan a behind-the-scenes look at his involvement with the new film: The Right to Read. Kareem also offered insights into his latest work with NAACP. Plus, Kareem addressed the topic of accountability: can we make the changes we need to make when it comes to literacy instruction without holding some people accountable?
Show notes:
Quotes:
“You could look at it from every endeavor, every social sector. Literacy is at the core.” —Kareem Weaver
“Hope it's not a strategy. It's great to have hope, but that can't be the strategy for our kids and our systems that serve 'em.” —Kareem Weaver
“There has to be some accountability at a human level for people to open up and be willing to believe enough.” —Kareem Weaver
“People often get so caught up in their own feelings and their own agenda and what they can't wait to do and they forget about the people they're supposed to be. Leadership starts with service.” —Kareem Weaver
“Many of us have divested ourselves from our own values to accommodate the narratives and lies we've been told to calm the dissonance.” —Kareem Weaver
“I believe in our potential to solve big problems if we're honest with each other and if we ask the right questions and push the right way.” —Kareem Weaver
After three years and more than 3 million downloads, Science of Reading: The Podcast recently conducted its first ever taping in front of a live audience. The recording took place on March 9, 2023, in New Orleans at the Plain Talk About Literacy and Learning conference. Susan Lambert was joined by none other than Kareem Weaver, NAACP activist, whose first appearance on this podcast remains an all-time favorite among listeners. This time around, Kareem gave Susan a behind-the-scenes look at his involvement with the new film: The Right to Read. Kareem also offered insights into his latest work with NAACP. Plus, Kareem addressed the topic of accountability: can we make the changes we need to make when it comes to literacy instruction without holding some people accountable?
Show notes:
Quotes:
“You could look at it from every endeavor, every social sector. Literacy is at the core.” —Kareem Weaver
“Hope it's not a strategy. It's great to have hope, but that can't be the strategy for our kids and our systems that serve 'em.” —Kareem Weaver
“There has to be some accountability at a human level for people to open up and be willing to believe enough.” —Kareem Weaver
“People often get so caught up in their own feelings and their own agenda and what they can't wait to do and they forget about the people they're supposed to be. Leadership starts with service.” —Kareem Weaver
“Many of us have divested ourselves from our own values to accommodate the narratives and lies we've been told to calm the dissonance.” —Kareem Weaver
“I believe in our potential to solve big problems if we're honest with each other and if we ask the right questions and push the right way.” —Kareem Weaver
At a certain point in time, you gotta deal with the root cause. Literacy is at the root, and for me, I just got tired of dealing with the edges.
Susan Lambert:This is Susan Lambert, and welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast, from Amplify, where the Science of Reading lives. Today, I've got something very special to share: our first-ever episode recorded in front of a live audience. While in New Orleans this past March, for the Plain Talk conference, I had the chance to sit down with one of our all-time favorite guests, Kareem Weaver, co-founder and Executive Director of the organization FULCRUM: Full and Complete Reading is a Universal Mandate. Best of all, Kareem and I got to speak in front of you, our fantastic listeners. We know not everyone could make it to New Orleans, so I'm thrilled to now share this conversation with all of you. A lot has changed since Kareem joined us on Season Four of the podcast. So we caught up about his key role in the recent Right to Read documentary, his work as the Oakland NAACP's second vice president and chair of its education committee, and we also shared some behind-the-scenes info about this podcast. I really hope you enjoy listening to this conversation from Plain Talk with FULCRUM co-founder and executive director Kareem Weaver. So before we officially get started with our live podcast recording ... I guess all of you listen to the podcast, right?
Audience:Yes! <cheering>
Susan Lambert:Three years, over three million ... we're pushing three-and-a-half million downloads now.
Kareem Weaver:Congratulations.
Susan Lambert:That's crazy, isn't it? And maybe people have heard this story, but I'm gonna tell it again. Because it's hilarious. And...my Amplify boss isn't here, is she? No, she's not here.
Kareem Weaver:So go quick! Get it in before she's here.
Susan Lambert:That's right. But ... I was sitting in the chair in the sunroom, drinking my coffee, one Saturday morning. And I'm listening to a podcast. The Good Life Project — so shout-out to The Good Life Project — thinking, "This would be an interesting way to give information to practitioners." Because they could listen whenever they wanted to. In the car — maybe not in the shower, but you know, in the bathroom, if you wanna listen in the bathroom. And so I text my friend Gregg Driben. Where's Gregg? Stand up and wave, Gregg! <audience goes whoo> And I'm like "G, I've got an idea. Let's do a podcast. And he's like, "It can't be that hard, right? How hard can it be? We'll do it. Who do we need to ask?" I'm like, "ASK? We're not gonna ask anybody! We're just gonna do it. And if it works, it works, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. What's wrong with that, right? So we did it. We didn't get in trouble. And here we are, thanks to all y'all, but mostly thanks to guests too, that come on and share their wisdom. And I'll tell you what, one of the most popular episodes—
Kareem Weaver:Really!
Susan Lambert:Mr. Kareem Weaver, right here. Don't you think? <Applause> You're leading the pack, because your message is important. So when we decided we were gonna celebrate right here at Plain Talk with everyone, somebody said, "Who do you think that you would want? Dream Guest, that you'd wanna talk to ?" And I said, "Kareem Weaver." And we said, "Hey, Kareem , you wanna do this?" And you said, "I don't care." <Laugh>
Kareem Weaver:Sounds about right . Sounds about right .
Susan Lambert:I think that's exactly what you said. Yeah . So here you all are with Kareem Weaver, and we're really honored to have you here. And what we thought that we would do is, before we start the discussion, we're gonna play the trailer to an important movie. And then we're gonna talk to Kareem a little bit about it.
Speaker 1:Millions of American kids struggle to read.
Speaker 2:We should succeed in seeing that every eight-year-old can read independently.
Speaker 3:When I first started teaching in Oakland, there were only two kids in my class of 35 who could read.
Child:Larry ... ran ... to ... the ... cat.
Speaker 4:My man Larry, wanna say this right now, on tape: My man Larry just read his first sentence by his self. And I'm very, very proud of him .
Speaker 5:We have a lot of people who struggle to read. Why aren't we screaming and yelling about this?
Speaker 6:In 35 years we have gone backwards, not forwards.
Speaker 7:It is a national problem that cuts across demographics, but it's painted as a minority issue.
Speaker 8:For as long as I can ever remember, I've wanted to be a teacher. This school is the lowest performing in reading in the district.
Kareem Weaver:So this is a civil rights issue. We're really trying to figure out how to get Oakland kids to read.
Speaker 9:Reading is everything. It's the foundation to everything in this life.
Speaker 10:It has been said that illiteracy is one of the most solvable issues of our time.
Speaker 11:What letter is it?
Child 2:Y!
Speaker 11:Yeah!
Kareem Weaver:Everybody deserves the right to read. Literacy is for all.
Speaker 12 :We wanna make sure that all students have the opportunity to be with a teacher who has learned the Science of Reading, in order to crack the code of reading.
Kareem Weaver:Question is today, do we have the political will and do we have the moral courage and fortitude to use literacy as a vehicle to include all. This is social justice.
Susan Lambert:How you feel about that when you hear that again and again? I don't know how many times you've watched that trailer, but...
Kareem Weaver:Um, resolved. I feel determined. And memories keep flooding back. I mean, it's a film, but you know, Larry was ... I love Larry. From cutting his doggone hair in class ... my class was like a barbershop. But I was talking with somebody the other day, you know, I had about 12 Harry's . You know what I mean? So , it takes me back and kind of plugs me back in, you know, to the purpose. But it steels me. It really does. It does .
Susan Lambert:This documentary is sort of built around your story. How did this, how did this happen?
Kareem Weaver:I don't know!
Susan Lambert:< Laugh >
Kareem Weaver:I really don't know ! They , um, you know, a friend of mine , Margaret Goldberg from the Right to Read project, I think she was connected to some people. And somehow or another they ... I don't know . But I do know that they were following me around. They wanted to follow us around, but I wouldn't let 'em. Like, they're trying to make a movie!
Susan Lambert:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kareem Weaver:Like, this is not a game! Like, you know, "Can we come visit the superintendent? Can we...?" No! You can't come! No, I can't come bringing the film crew in and visit the superintendent! So it took a while for me to kind of open up to 'em and ... yeah, it took a while. But, you know, we got used to 'em. We got used to 'em.
Susan Lambert:So initially, you weren't willing to—
Kareem Weaver:I had no idea what it was about. I know and love Margaret. She's a colleague and a friend. So she said, "Can you...?" I was like, "OK, whatever." Same type of answer, I guess. <Laugh>
Susan Lambert:Sure, whatever.
Kareem Weaver:You know. But I really didn't know what they were doing. I didn't know what the project was about. I wasn't in the film. They just wanted to — I don't know what they were doing! They had cameras. You c an follow us around if you want to; that's cool. You wanna talk about reading? We c an talk about reading all day long. That's what it was for me. Somebody e lse w ants t o talk about reading? OK, cool. Oh, you're making a movie. OK. A ll r ight. Good luck with that. But no, you cannot come to every meeting we go to. So we kind of had a n easy piece about that. And i t grew over time till I w as more trusting with them, and, you know, let them see some things. But yeah, it took a w hile for me to open up to 'em.
Susan Lambert:I think ... isn't there some scenes that you're actually in your own—you let 'em in through the doors of your house ?
Kareem Weaver:Yeah. My wife was not feeling that <laugh>. She was like — literally, 'cause she's an introvert — she's like, "They can go in this room, in this room, and that's it." And, you know, my mom was just as bad. They wanted my mother, and my mother was like, "No." <Laugh> "No!" And her issue was, a lot of people make movies about black folks and it's like a caricature. My mom was like, "No, it's another one of these movies. They're gonna make us look bad . I want nothing to do with it ." I was like, "Mom, how you know it's gonna play ? She's like , "I've been around for a long time, I know how this goes." She saw one of the screenings. She's like, "Oh, I wish I had been in that movie!" <Laugh> F or r eal. I w as l ike, "See, I'm not messing with you today. < Laugh> I 'm not messing with you today."
Susan Lambert:Can't they splice her in somehow? I don't know .
Kareem Weaver:But I think it was good because she held a hard line and she was like, "No." 'Cause they kept asking . She was like, "No," you know, "You have to portray us in a positive way." I've seen too many things in my life, hearing her talk, where we get, you know, this silly caricature of our lives. And so I think the producers did a good job of actually telling a story in a healthy and constructive way.
Susan Lambert:Yeah . That's amazing. So what brought you to this ... some of it was your work with NAACP in California?
Kareem Weaver:Yeah. So ...
Susan Lambert:Tell us a little bit about that.
Kareem Weaver:So I don't know if your guests are familiar with the NAACP, but it's a civil rights organization. It's an old and a big civil rights organization. A lot of the civil rights we have today, NAACP helped secure those rights. And it's still active. You have a national organization, you have state conferences, and then you have branches in most large cities, a lot of cities throughout the country. And they do a lot of different things. But one of the things they have as a standing committee is education. And I've been on an education committee for a few years. Just as a foot soldier, you know. The vice president who was also the chair of the committee, she was looking for people. Matter of fact, I remember when I applied to be on the committee, they had a vetting process and it was 10 people in the room. And she said, "Kareem, we wanna find out if you for real or if you for fake."
Susan Lambert:Oh!
Kareem Weaver:That's what she said! Yeah. They don't play. They get down! <Laugh> And so I guess she figured I was for real. Because you gotta be careful. Different people have different agendas. And we're trying to focus on literacy. We can't be playing around. We can't be playing games. So anyway , I worked with the NAACP however I could, working with the school district in Oakland and also West Contra Costa and some other folks. District and charter. Just trying to get people to understand what our kids need. And that it is possible. So that's a great platform to use or to be part of, because NAACP has its own brand. So now the Science of Reading isn't just a "them" thing. It becomes a "we" thing. That's why it's important in my mind to frame it as a civil rights issue. Literacy is a civil rights issue. So groups like the ACLU, NAACP , they ought to be involved. What else you gonna be doing right now? Yeah. You know what I mean? So that's why I started working with them. And it's been good. There've been some times that they've pushed me, you know, in terms of the tone and tenor of what I have to say. And I respect that. You know, I don't want to disrespect this shield or the brand and all that type of stuff. I was on a state conference at the NAACP in California for a while , but I'm happiest to be now just to stay at the local level, and do what I can to fight — I mean, around the country, but locally with the NAACP in California and Oakland.
Susan Lambert:Why literacy? What makes that a hot topic? Why literacy for you, for you personally? I mean, I know what—
Kareem Weaver:You wanna get into it ! <Audience laughs> You wanna get into it ! Why literacy!? Man! What? OK. <Audience laughs> You could look at it from every endeavor, every social sector: Literacy is at the core. I have friends who are ministers, and I'm like, "You don't want people to read the book that y'all talking about? You just gonna tell 'em what it's in it?" Like, I remember when that was the way things went down in this country. It's still like that? Even in your church? In the business community. Same type of thing. You need workers. IIt goes into every aspect of our lives, including our peace of mind. Literacy is about peace of mind. You know, in schools they have social-emotional curriculum at times. You know , different curriculums. But they try to get people to handle their traumas and their problems and be able to constructively resolve stuff and conflicts and all that. And I'm like, that's all fine and well, but if you can't read, you getting traumatized every day. At a certain point in time, you gotta deal with the root cause. I guess to answer your question is, literacy is at the root. And for me, I just got tired of dealing with the edges. And the fruits of — I wanted to get to the root of things. And to me, literacy is at the root of not just our civil rights, but our access to society. We wanna talk about saving democracy? OK, well, how they gonna read the ballot? How they gonna read the description of what these candidates stand for? Oh, they can't. Oh, so now they're just being told who to vote for. That's why these, these — don't let me get started. <Audience laughs > You know , I have a cousin who was in prison for over 20 years. We have the same birthday. I love him dearly. He has a book that he wrote. ...
Susan Lambert:You can't think of the title right now, though, can you?
Kareem Weaver:Ahhh.
Susan Lambert:It's OK.
Kareem Weaver:I can't. I'll think of it. I apologize to you. 'Cause if you hear this — Identical Strangers is what it's called! Identical Strangers, Cleveland Bush . And anyway, I interviewed him. I was like, "Man, I wanna interview you. Your experiences. ..." He's in South Carolina. He's one of the worst prisons in South Carolina. And he told me something I'll never forget. He was like, "You know, when you're illiterate, it makes the cuffs tighter."
Susan Lambert:Ouch.
Kareem Weaver:He said, "In many ways...people can talk over your head. Whether you don't know the rules or the laws or whatever it is, you are at the mercy. You end up following other people's agenda. And in many ways we're often misled." I'll never forget when he told me that. Matter of fact, I'm sure it's on YouTube somewhere. But it is the root of our access to society. You either on the inside or the outside. You can navigate it, but it's getting harder and harder. When my dad was probably in his twenties, mid-twenties or whatever, you could get a job. You could make your way, work at the plant or something, you know what I mean ? Or navigate things. You could raise a family off that salary, and all the rest. Man, that job is long gone. Nowadays that kid is on the streets or locked up somewhere, depending on what his family has access to, if they can shepherd him or her in some other direction. But that kid today ... and so, our society is evolving away from illiteracy. It's getting harder. You are an Other. And that's a tough pill to swallow and just sit back and say, "Oh, well." And people unfortunately are so busy that it's almost second nature to just kind of avert our eyes. And my whole thing is, we can't avert our eyes. These are our kids. These are our neighbors. I don't care what color they are. You know, when you're illiterate, it's a problem for me, too. You know, it's one thing when you see my son walking down the street. It's another thing when you see my son who can't read and he's walking down the street. That's a whole different get-down. You know, I might be scared of your child if your child can't read. I don't care what color they are. 'Cause they might be desperate enough to do something to me or mine. I'm just saying; I'm keeping it real with you. But if I know he's got a shot or she's got a shot at society, if they've been given whatever the opportunities that they need to have, they can read, that means they can compete. Right? So I'll be like, "Hey, how you doing?" I'm gonna say, "Hi, how you doing" anyway, but my point is, you know, we marvel at people's desperation as if we don't know what happened. There's a reason why our prisons are filled to the brim. It's a reason why we got people sleeping out on the street in the gutters. It's a reason why we — it's only so many football games we can watch to divert our attention at a certain point in time. We have to look at our neighbors and be like, you know what, am I my brother's keeper or not? Who are we as a people? Are we connected enough to each other to give a damn about our neighbor? Sorry, mom. < A udience laughs softly> . But that's really what it boils down to, in t he essence.
Susan Lambert:And that message has been resonating across the country, too. You just, is it Buffalo that you just came from?
Kareem Weaver:Yeah, I was in Buffalo, New York.
Susan Lambert:Can you tell us about that? What took you there?
Kareem Weaver:Yeah, what took me there? So they have an initiative. I love it. WNY, Western New York Alliance, led by parent volunteers. And now they've started a nonprofit. And they have brought in all different stakeholders. Superintendents, BOCES directors, parent groups, dyslexia advocates, politicians, you name it. And they're focusing on literacy. And so we've had a couple of events there. I was fortunate enough to speak at one of their things, a conference or something. So they asked me back to speak to three different groups. One was like the who's-who type folks. You know, they got titles and all that type of stuff. And they make policy decisions and all that. So there's a room full of those folks, who are , you know, gave the presentation, talk, had a Q & A. The next night it was parents, teachers, and principals. And I love that. Love that. And then the next day it was at a church. I was like, "Hey, let's go! Let's do it." But you know what, it takes all that. So in New York, they brought these folks together, so that One, they could hear this message about why literacy is so important. Two, they could hear next steps about what they could do, for the policy people to hear, "OK, what can I actually do?" 'Cause it's one thing to get all stirred and feel passionate about something, but then what do you do? And it's so far, the train's so far gone at this point, people just don't feel connected to solutions. And in New York, you know, I don't know if y'all have heard about the crisis they have with the buses in New York. I hadn't heard about this, but they sat me down. It's like, yeah, the problem is not that we don't have enough bus drivers or applicants. We have tons of people who apply for these jobs. But our kids can't get to school because we don't have enough people who can pass the test to become bus drivers. And it's like a civil service test. You can't get around that . And it's a union job. So they're like, what can we do? So it's like the chickens are coming home to roost at this point. In all these different industries. You know, in our last NDAA, the budget that the government proposed, there was a clause while we were out, you know, watching football and the Housewives and whatever else we're doing. There was a clause put in there that girls would have to register for selective service. In other words, we don't have enough soldiers. Our boys can't read to pass the doggone test — it's called the AFPSAT — to get in the military. We gonna have to bring our girls in now. There was a congressman down in Texas who was like, "Over my dead body will you draft my daughter!" I was like, "Right on, my man." < Laughs > But I mean, that's where we are now. And that level of desperation is in every sector. In the business com— the only sector that's thriving is the prison industry. They don't have enough beds. They gotta outsource it now, because business is booming. And the root cause of it is illiteracy. Whether we want to avert our eyes or not, it's there. But I don't think people realize just how serious the situation is. And realize just what our passivity has wrought. The pressure hasn't been coming enough from community. The only reason these institutions can keep going the way they're going is 'cause the community doesn't put the pressure on them . Universities who have method classes , and people go through and learn, they get ready to go teach, and never having learned the Science of Reading. And they steadily cashing checks. Tuition payments are good. And getting money from the federal government, in the form of loans, to do it. It's a cycle. And then those folks go out unprepared. And then we ask them later on to learn more. "Oh, now do this professional development." Oh, and pay for it. That's a whole 'nother thing. <laugh> You know, but what about the institution in higher ed that should have — where's the accountability? Especially the public ones! Private ones, I guess you can do what you want to; it's private. But if you're a public university of higher ed and you're not preparing teachers to do what they need to do, where's the accountability for that? That's why I'm like, "You know what? Hard war , easy peace . As long as you wanna fight, it's going down. But the minute you say, 'We yield,' hey, we can be brothers. Easy peace." And to me, this reading movement has to be like that. We can get along, easy peace . We can work together for this. But man, if you gonna be obstinate and our kids are circling the drain and our teachers are making bricks without straw, metaphorically speaking, what we supposed to do? Pat 'em on the back, donate money for their endowment, and pay more taxes to go for these schools? I'm like, "No!" Come on! No . Heck no. Heck no. At some point, they gotta ante up and kick in. It can't just be their reputation and their brand and all that is built on the backs of our kids. And our kids have to suffer. That's not fair. Why should our kids have to circle the drain, but your institution's thriving? How that's supposed to work? Everybody got their tenure. The professors this, the provost that. And nobody even has to talk about what's going on in the surrounding community. But the teachers you're training are going to serve? Nah , nah , nah , nah . So every community has gotta wrestle with that. Everybody's gotta ante up and kick in . Everybody's gotta be accountable. And we have a right to know, if I pay you my tuition money, that's like an agreement to me. This is how I see it. This is like an agreement. You're preparing me, so I'm giving you the money. But what if you're not preparing me? Do I get a rebate? What do I get if you break the deal? With all your prestige as an institution, but you chose not to prepare me well? And when I applied, you made it sound like, "Oh, if you come to our university, you know, everyone respects the degree from this center ." OK, so I got a master's in literacy, whatever it is, but I get in there and I don't know what to do. Matter of fact, I had a school superintendent tell me, "We actually don't mind paying money for professional development, to teach teachers how to teach reading. Not a problem. What we don't want to have to do is pay money to unteach the things they learned incorrectly in their graduate programs."
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Kareem Weaver:So that's a cost we shouldn't have to bear.
Susan Lambert:That's right.
Kareem Weaver:I was like , "Sure you're right. You ain't said nothin' but the word ." So I think that's pressure that groups like the NAACP and the community at large has to put on these institutions.
Susan Lambert:When I asked you that question, when we were chatting before, here's what you said: "Can we really make the pivots we need to make, without holding ourselves accountable?" Do you think that's true on all levels of the system? Can we make the pivots we need to make without holding ourselves accountable?
Kareem Weaver:No. No. There's too much blood in the water. There's too much pain out there. Somebody gotta answer for that. I mean, I mentioned my cousin. People have kids who have gone through school systems who weren't successful. Now their kid is incarcerated, their family broken, or they can't get a job or whatever it is, and they're supposed to just let that go? Right? But what does accountability look like? First of all, accountability starts at the top. Not the bottom. And our kids are accountable. OK? It is a ruthless and unforgiving world when you don't learn how to read. Our teachers are held accountable because they're the point of service. And so people say , "Oh, you messed that up. You need the test scores," and this, that and the other. It's just human nature . But what about the superintendent? What about the chief academic officer? What about the school board president? What about the governor ? What about the mayor? What about all these people who cashed checks that are plenty big? Where's the accountability? And I think sometimes people are so insecure about the implications for that on their career and their personal brand that they don't realize, yes, there's some of us who will throw tomatoes. Yes. Like, I'm not gonna lie, there's some people that's so mad and so hurt that you gonna get cussed out by some people. That's true. However, most people just want honest brokers in the chair. They just want you to raise your hand, say, "Man, we blew it. We did the best — we thought we were doing the best we could at the time. 'Cause we love your child. Come to find out, research now says this. We're gonna make this pivot, and it's gonna take a season of learning. We invite you to learn with us so that we can undo some of this damage and go towards a better place, a healthier place." Most people are like, OK, cool. But what you can't do is, you can't come in there — one year, you've been talking about, whatever, balanced literacy, whole-language curriculum, or whatever it is you've been pushing for the last five years. And then you went to go see the movie, right? Or you heard a n article o r read a n article. And now, all o f a sudden, you got a new mandate for everybody to do. I need you, Mr. T eacher, I need you Ms. T eacher to go take this training for 15 hours during your summer break unpaid. And we got a new curriculum that you gotta learn. Man, that dog won't hunt. You g onna have to say — There has to be some accountability, at a human level, for people to open up and be willing to believe enough. Even just to suspend b elief to try something new, even i f o utta curiosity. But people have to be accountable. And there has never been an urban school district who has let their superintendent go because of low academic achievement. An urban school d istrict. I t's always, "Look, i t's a scandal." There's s ome money t hat, you know, somebody did something they shouldn't have done. The board and the superintendent don't get along. It's all kind of stuff that goes on why people get let go early o ut of their contract, and they still get paid, but whatever. But the kids just not reading? You g onna have to go. Where's that board meeting? Where's that, where's that? You don't hear about that. Oh, somebody cheated on some test scores, or whatever. W hat about, you know what, you've been here for three years and that's why I urge all school boards: You should have literacy objectives in your superintendent's evaluation plan. What you measure gets done. And the board only has one employee that's a superintendent. Everybody else is a designee. If you don't have literacy goals in t he superintendent's work plan? Man, y 'all playin'. Y' all p layin'. And you ar e h oping that things work out. Hope is not a strategy. It's great to have hope, but that can't be the strategy for our kids an d o ur systems that serve 'e m.
Susan Lambert:So in your work with folks, have you ever encountered a superintendent or somebody in leadership that's actually said, "We did it wrong; we need to fix this and make it right? We're sorry."
Kareem Weaver:In terms of mea culpa , we blew it?
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Kareem Weaver:Nah. That's just not the culture. First of all, superintendents change hands too much. They don't stay that long. t It used to be two-and-a-half years. I think now it's up to three-and-a-half years, 10 years. ...You know, they're like, "Oh, the last person blew it. It ain't had nothing to do with me." You know what I mean? "Hire me. I'm gonna fix all your problems." That's usually what they say. But no, I haven't really heard that . 'Cause they haven't had to, because we haven't asked for accountability.
Susan Lambert:Right.
Kareem Weaver:And so if we don't demand it, then they don't have to.
Susan Lambert:So you mentioned something about culture. You've been thinking about culture a little bit. Or at least, you told me you've been thinking about culture a little bit. <Laugh>
Kareem Weaver:Related to literacy?
Susan Lambert:Related to literacy and change.
Kareem Weaver:Yeah. You know , change management is a big deal. You can have a great curriculum, great professional development. You can have all the pieces and all the technical things. All the boxes are checked. And initiatives still didn't work. It doesn't. It's about culture. The research shows, if you look at John Hattie's Visible Learning, it talks about collective teacher efficacy.
Susan Lambert:Love that.
Kareem Weaver:The belief that, you know, we are responsible for student learning. You're gonna get a year's growth in a year's time. Yes, home matters, but we are the ultimate factor whether or not this kid learns or not. That that's partly culture. So for school leaders, part of that is your personality. How grounded you are as an individual. Your ability to perceive and engage honestly. But that's our humanity. But culture is a big piece of it . Look, culture beats program any day of the week. Culture eats program for lunch. You gotta have your culture right. For a school building or a principal or an assistant principal or coach, whatever it is, that's the main thing. Because you have to deal with the cynicism. All the different initiatives that have come and gone. Everybody talking the same game . You know, "We got the new thing now." Oh, here's the pendulum. You know, you gotta deal with that. You have to be able to , whether it's from a technical standpoint — I remember telling teachers when I became a principal, I was like, "Listen, if you wanna save your pension, we gonna have to fix this ship." "Oh, well, you should have said that! < L augh> T he last principal s hould h ave said that!" < Laugh> Y ou know, I had a bunch of veterans, t hey're close to retirement. They're like, "What??" <Laugh> I 'm like, "Oh yeah, you don't fix this, we not g onna have enough money in t he system to pay you. Or not for very long." Like, you have to be able to ... and so here's t he o ther thing. Leaders have to be what people need them to be. It's not enough to just have this umbrage. This feeling of moral outrage. And t hat you feel like that justifies the way you do things. "I a m gonna make ' em d o it right now. I don't have to go through this plan. I don't have to get t heir involvement. This is the right thing to do. And I know the reading is w riting, so they just gotta do it." Not in t his season. Maybe there's a season for that. It's not that season. This is the season of, how are you gonna get people to grow? How are you gonna get people to b e vulnerable? How are you gonna get them to open up? How are you gonna get them past t heir cynicism a nd their doubt a nd their history a nd their own personal story? That has to be considered. If you can't do that, maybe this is not the right building for you in this season. That's the call for leadership. And that's a cultural component that I'm not even sure i f you can go to school for that. But some of that is just who we are as people. And race is a big part too. Race, class, gender. You know, are you OK holding people the way they need to be held when they don't look like you? Not the same gender? You might have some feelings about that. You know, as a Black man, I'm in schools and I'm like, "I g otta tell all these white — I gotta make these white people feel good about teaching reading?" Yeah, that's your job. "You mean it's a school full of women, I'm the only guy here, and I gotta. ...?" Yeah. That's your job. "You mean I've been teaching for so-and-so-many years and this is a brand new teacher, fresh out the box? They should be listening to me anyway!" No. Guess what? That's your job. If you don't w ant t o do the job, then get a different job. But right now, in this season, you gotta hold people to get 'em from point A to point B, for k ids' sake. If you can't do that, it's not your season. I mean, you know, I get fired u p about that. But that's just t he reality. A nd people don't tell leaders the truth about that. They feel like, it's your world. You know, it's k ind of like ... so my background is actually in clinical community psychology, before I switched to education.
Susan Lambert:I did not know that.
Kareem Weaver:Yeah. University of South Carolina. So the psychological underpinnings of child abuse is that when adults think that children are there to meet their needs, instead of them being there to meet the child's need. It's the same dynamic at play for leadership. Especially in schools. We often think that teachers are here. And so they go, "OK, so now we get to run my program, my agenda. Now I'm in charge." Right? Now I'm the evaluator. OK. So you think they're here to meet your prerogative, when actually you are here to help them get from point A to point B. It's a mindset shift. Towards the goal that whatever the superintendent has in ... everybody's got a good goal. Everybody's got a good vision statement. You know, that's a whole 'nother conversation. Everybody's got a bumper sticker. If only diversity, equity, inclusion, you know, was my next-door neighbor. <laugh> Everybody seems to know him. <laugh> Right? He own parking space. But in the real world , people often get so caught up in their own feelings and their own agenda and what they can't wait to do when they forget about the people they're supposed to be ... leadership starts with service. If you don't get that, it's not like a placard or a nameplate above the door. You know, "Principal's Office." There are some compliance-driven folks who respect that sign. But leadership, people grant you certain permissions and certain respect. And that has to do with culture. That has to do with how you carry yourself. It has to do with your priorities and your ability to serve authentically. That's the season we're in right now. That's what we need from schools, principals, assistant principals, coaches, instruction leads , all those folks. We need them to be servant leaders right now.
Susan Lambert:How does expectations fit into that story?
Kareem Weaver:Oh my goodness. < Laugh > Oh my goodness. I mean, the folks out here, you can ... look, expectations. You know George Bush — not the elder Bush, the younger Bush — he went before the NAACP when he was running for president. He used to be Governor of Texas. He was running for president. He went before the NAACP, 'cause everybody likes to go to the NAACP when they want to get elected. That's a whole 'nother story. <laugh> . However, he said, you know, "We have to be concerned about" — and this is his phrase — "the soft bigotry of low expectations." Hello, somebody. We dress it up in different ways, and we make ourselves OK with it. But he called it the soft bigotry. As an adult, now that I've seen the implications of it, of low expectations, I would say there's nothing soft about it at all. It's just a palatable version of it. Every generation has that. I remember being a young kid — I've always been a history buff. My dad was a history buff. I think he had dyslexia too, but he was a history buff. And he used to get these Time Life books. And now I'll never forget seeing pictures of lynchings. And you would see people smiling. Little kids smiling, just laughing and people with their Sunday best clothes on, and somebody's burnt at the stake or hanging in the back. I'm like, what in the world? How did people fix their mind to allow themselves to just go with the flow? That's why I went into clinical community psychology. Like what is that collective ennui? What is , what is, what is, what, what what? And what I realize is, you know, it's kind of like humidity. You don't really realize it till you change from one place to the next. But when you are in it, you can't tell. And culturally, we just get used to certain things. It's what everybody else is doing. It's what the teacher down the hall is doing. The grade level chair, the principal, the superintendent, the school board, the publisher. Everybody. Everybody's talking the same tune. So the real power is an ability to perceive you are in the humidity. To perceive. Wait a second, I'm not gonna forget who I am. At my core, I believe in children. We have what percent of kids reading proficiently? Wait a second. My values say this. The reality is this. Either I gotta reassess my values or there's another explanation. And unfortunately many of us have divested ourselves from our own values to accommodate the narratives and lives we've been told, to calm the dissonance. My job is to plug people back into their best selves. Everybody's vulnerable to their best self. Everybody is. And say, "Wait a second, you started this journey how?" That's how I did with my teachers. I mean, it was a turnaround type of situation. Like, "You remember when you first started this journey? What did you want to do? What did you want to get done? Is it too much now? Or are we giving up officially? Let's just name it. If we gonna give up, let's give up. Is that what we doing? And if it is, let's name it. Let's be honest about this thing. If you still believe those values, then we gotta get to work. We got a lot of work to do. We gotta figure some things out. And I'm here to help you and facilitate that. But if we're gonna let it go, then let's just name it. If we're saying, 'They're a bunch of ne'er-do-wells, the mother's this, the father that, the money is this way, the trauma in the community, da da da...' If that's what it is, then let's just be honest enough with ourselves to say we've outgrown our values." And you know, especially more seasoned educators, when you name it, when you are honest about it, they're like, "Why did you have to bring that up?" < L augh> "I was cool. You know, I'm only four years from retirement, man. Just be cool." And that's the deal we make. 'Cause I used to be a boxer. We used to talk about the silent deal. I d on't k now if you're...so the silent deal is, listen, it's hard to throw punches for a long time and n ot get tired. There comes a point where your whole body is hurting. It's hard to even lift your hands up. But I'm tired and I know you're tired. So we g onna make a deal without even talking. I'm g onna look at you. You g oing look at... now, we both w anna win. But look, man.
Susan Lambert:<Laugh>
Kareem Weaver:You know, we going , "Let's get through this together." So what we do is, we clinch. We just hold on a little bit long. And we make the referee come break us up. And then we throw a couple punches. Then we clinch again. That's the silent deal we make. Many of us in education have made silent deals with our values. "We just gonna get through this. I'm tired. You tired? I'm cynical. They not paying me that much anyway."
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Kareem Weaver:"At a certain point in time, you know, let's just get through this together." But all it takes is somebody who doesn't take the deal. And you get knocked out, you get knocked out. But in education, when a colleague or a parent or a a principal or somebody knocks on those values and says, "Hey, what about this? Remember this? Are you still that person?" it does something to you. Every educator, if it's in you, it's in you. So that's why I don't give up on people who are a little jaded, a little cynical. You just have to call 'em to their best stuff and say, "Hey, wait a second. When you started this, what did you want to get done? When you first started off, before the this and before the strike and before the this, what were you trying to do? What if I told you there was a way you could still do that? I don't wanna give you false hope. Let's look at this podcast, ExtraOrdinary Districts, ordinary districts doing extraordinary things. Let's chart out what they did. Let's chart out the results. Let's look at this district here. This district there. In Kentucky. Oh no. Only the poorest kids or the marginalized kids or the second language learners or whatever. Let's look at those kids and see how they're doing." So now what do you do with that? So as an educator, you're like, oh, snap! < Laugh> M an, I've seen it. It does something to people. It kind of plugs them back in. It's scary. To hope again is scary. 'Cause t here's risk with that. I gotta spend time, professional development, and I gotta learn new curriculum. Oh my god. Again? But the idea that there i s a possible way to be back in touch with my best self. For most teachers, that's something that they jump a t the opportunity to do.
Susan Lambert:So we were talking before we turned the mics on and I said, "Are you tired of traveling?" And you said, "You know, I used to travel in the thing that I did before, and it was cool at first, and you know, the hotels were good. Bad. Fun. Got sick of it. Tired of it." You're traveling now like crazy.
Kareem Weaver:Yeah.
Susan Lambert:What's different?
Kareem Weaver:Um, first of all, I'm mad at you, 'cause we wasn't on tape when I was talking to you all up during the podcast, <laugh> but all right. OK. We go there in the end.
Susan Lambert:Martin can cut it out .
Kareem Weaver:It's all good. I'm messing with you. The difference is, this is the main thing. I found myself traveling a lot for things that, does it really matter if I go to this event or not? It's a conference for a week. Ooh , it's a nice hotel. Wonderful. I'm doing OK. Does it really matter? If I didn't go, would it make any difference at all? You know, come on man. I'm, you know, once you hit a certain age, you only have so much time. You ain't trying to waste your time! But now we talking about literacy. So when I go to a church in Buffalo, New York, and I see people there in the cold, there's snow all over the place, and they out there to talk about reading and literacy? And there's a superintendent there and a chief academic officer there and some parents there and the choir rehearsal's coming after this and so they're up there with their robes on and they're up there and they're asking questions and the little babies running around? Man, hey , sign me up for that. You know what I mean? When I'm talking to a public radio station, I know that those of us who still listen to public radio <laugh> actually care about the issues that come up. So oh yeah , OK, I'll do that. 'Cause that's gonna reach some folks. And those folks are gonna reach some kids. Hey , but I'm not trying to travel <laugh> . You know, this is not a contest of who could log the most frequent flyer miles. Nah, man. Nah. Uh-uh. <Laugh> But if it's something to move the ball forward? And I know that I trust educators. I actually believe in people. I believe in our potential to solve big problems if we're honest with each other, and if we ask the right questions and push the right way. So I'm willing to travel now, because I'm hopeful and encouraged and I believe I'm traveling for the right reasons. I still don't like traveling <laugh> , especially ... my daughter's 18. She's a senior in high school. This is the last go-round for me. I've had a couple of kids go through and everything and this is it. So I'm not trying to miss this time. You know , she got a game in two days. I'm gonna be there.
Susan Lambert:Yeah, you are. With your straw hat on and everything, isn't that right ?
Kareem Weaver:Yeah. Yes . My home run hat. I wear that straw hat < audience laughs > . Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my baby can swing it, you know. But I'm not trying to travel for things that don't matter in life, you know. That's what I talk about in the movie. I'm too old to be doing things that don't matter. And I'm an African American male. Our life expectancy is shorter. It just is what it is. My brother was just diagnosed with cancer a little while ago. I think he's gonna be all right . He thinks it's gonna be all right . He told me I can mention it, so it's all good. But life happens. The question is, what do you do with the time you have? I understand you don't want to get up and learn this new thing again. What's the alternative? To spiral with stuff that doesn't work and squander a little bit of time we do have left? I'd rather die doing the right thing. And spend my time on that. Than, you know, revolve in circles doing the wrong thing. That's not doing me any good. It's hard to look my kids in the face, acting like that. Plus, I'm a descendant of enslaved persons. My grandmother's grandmother was a teacher. I've only told this to one other white person. <laugh>
Susan Lambert:<laugh> . Thanks for trusting me.
Kareem Weaver:Yeah, yeah , yeah . A whole bunch of <laugh> . Yeah . Sally Stanton. She had a secret. She taught enslaved folks. She was enslaved herself. And her secret was that she could read.
Susan Lambert:Wow.
Kareem Weaver:I maintain the greatest generation of educators this country has ever known were those folks, antebellum, who risked everything over a word. To teach people who were considered to be unteachable. Traumatized. I don't wanna call a roll, but, you know , they're unteachable. Matter of fact, they're subhuman. They don't even deserve it. They can't. They can't. They can't do it. So these folks risked their lives to make it so. I just...one of my ancestors was one of them people. In the canebrakes. In the brush arbors. Now it wasn't for the early retirement. It wasn't for the salary. It wasn't for trying to get the kids college and career ready. It was something about the humanity of people that they were going after. "I'm gonna teach you to read. You may never use this. But I understand that you as a human being deserve this. You deserve this." The right to read is a human right. And they proved it. It cost her husband his life when she was found out, what she was doing. It didn't cost her her life, because she was still of childbearing age. But it cost those close to you. And I I mention that because sometimes, when we go on these journeys, we aren't necessarily the ones that pay the price. Our loved ones pay the price. Yeah . Alongside of us. Our spouses, our kids. You know, I <laugh> don't wanna get into my story too much, but ... well, why not? I'm on the podcast <laugh> . So I was married before. And you see the young man, Larry, who's in the movie.
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Kareem Weaver:I was married when Larry was a student of mine, in fifth grade. And my oldest daughter would run around the classroom and everything. But the price that was paid ... it was for me, but it was also for my ex-wife. You're gone all the time. You're studying all the time. You're making lessons all the time. I hear people talking about, oh, let teachers build their own curriculum. Do you realize, do you ... stop playing. <Laugh> I don't know what world you live in, but there are some schools where you don't have but a few kids who know how to read, and the level of nuance and intentionality that it takes to come up with the lessons for the second language learners and the kids who've got this going on and that going on, and some have dyslexia, and you got all kind of stuff going on. And now you want me to build that too? And you only gonna pay me this am—listen, listen. And so, you know, I mentioned that because the people in the sidecar are families. They deserve us too. And so when I was at New Leaders, I was the Executive Director, I would tell our trainees — 'cause they were gonna be principals — I don't want you to pay the same price I did. So I would recommend this. I learned from that first situation that you gotta put up guardrails. It's like when you're a bowler, you gotta put the things up. So let's say, my son's birthday is the 30th. Every 30th was Daddy's Sunday. I'm not taking no meetings on that day after work. It's me and him. Whether we go to dinner, whether we go to a movie, whatever. Every 30th. Every 30th. Sorry, sons, February don't have a 30th. Sorry. < Laugh > For my youngest daughter, the 18th. Every 18th, me and you. It's daddy-daughter day. I have to protect them from the realities of the commission that I have, 'cause I understand the cost. So we have to be diligent, but also protect us. And that's really the role of a principal, too. So especially when you have veteran staff who've lived a little bit and they got things going on, you gotta tell 'em , "Listen, I got you." It's OK for you to go all in. I've been that teacher, where the principal's like, "Woo, he's going all in! Great! Here's another one!" You know? No, no, no. I got you. You're a human being. I want your marriage to be successful. I want you to be present in your kids' life . Matter of fact, I'm gonna send you home when it's time for you to go home . That's part of my job. It may not be in the job description, but if I don't care for you in that way, eventually it's no deal. And your staff knows, you can't jive them for that. You can't fake that. They know when you care about them and theirs. You know, I had one teacher who had some family stuff going on at home. We had some tough conversations. Now, I'm gonna need you to show up and be prepared. When it's prep time, I need you to prep. But I also need you to prep for all these other things. And at the same time, man, you know what? The next two days. I got you. Stay home with your wife, man. I got you . But I like being in classroom anyway. So just go home, man. Be with your lady. I got this. And here's a couple articles I want you to read. You know, so officially, you did your duty. <Laugh> Just do it at home. And da da da da . We gotta talk about afterwards? Nah, I ain't gotta talk. I trust you. Go ahead. You have to figure out how to help your people get where they have to go, and be honest about the price that's being extracted from them. We all have rights, but we also have duties. And you have to be mindful of both. And treat people the way they need to be treated. Now there's some times where it's just not gonna work. It's not your season. I understand. This is what's going on. I hear you. This is a high-need school, man. This may not be the place for you. Maybe we can put you in a different role. Maybe a teacher on special assignment, da , da , da . But I'm the site leader. I have a duty to these kids in the community. Like I can't just hide you on staff. You know, these resources are tight. So you gotta have that conversation, too. But everybody has to be upfront about where they are, and honest of what they need to get the job done. Is what I'd say.
Susan Lambert:Well, this is definitely your season <laugh> to be making a change in a really important area. And I think I can speak for all these people and all the people that are gonna be listening to this after the podcast, how much we appreciate the work that you are doing.
Kareem Weaver:Was it you who was telling me, are you gonna sing?
Susan Lambert:I said, can you sing?
Kareem Weaver:Was that you?
Susan Lambert:I said, can you sing and dance? And you said,
Kareem Weaver:I was like, I'm not dancing.
Susan Lambert:I'm not dancing.
Kareem Weaver:I'm not dancing with nobody.
Susan Lambert:Can you sing?
Kareem Weaver:And I'm not singing.
Susan Lambert:You're not singing?
Kareem Weaver:Listen, I love you. <laugh> . I love you. But there is an old song. It's not even that old. It's a song. You ever heard of this group called The Winans ? Anybody ever heard of The Winans?
Susan Lambert:Yeah.
Kareem Weaver:BeBe, CeCe, and all them?
Susan Lambert:Yeah, yeah.
Kareem Weaver:Anyway , they had a song called , " It's Time." <sings> "It's time. Time to make a change. We are as people who can do it. Just what is the world coming to? Looks like everyone is running from the truth. We got to stand up and fight, walk into the light. We are His people. We can do it. If we try." Anyway, it goes on. It's our season. It's time to make a change. It's nobody that's gonna come and say, "I got this for you." You don't have to do it. No. It's time to make the change . We are the people who can do it. I'm not saying it's easy. Lord knows it's not. It's not easy for the custodian. It's not easy for the crossing guard. It's bullets flying around schools nowadays. Real talk. It's not easy for the cafeteria people. It's not easy for the parent whose child has dyslexia. It's not easy for the parent whose child is a different ethnic group than the teacher, so the alarm bells don't go off right away, so you gotta monitor the expectations. It's not easy for the principal who's risking their marriage over this stuff. It's not easy for the Chief Academic Officer whose reputation is on the line, and their brand and their credibility is at stake, and they just have a doctor appointment. It's not easy for the board member who got elected, had to turn back to their constituents, says , "I don't know what is going on." It's not easy for anybody. But that's also very hopeful to me. When we're all in this state, we actually have a chance to be real with each other, and be like, "I'm trying to figure it out too." As long as you don't try to big-time me and act like you got it all together, when 20% of our kids are reading, and you trying to — come on now. As long as we're humble and real from whatever our role is, the question is — and I know we finna shut it off — but the question is, do we have it in us anymore, to do big things together? Do we? That's an honest-to-God question. We are so divided. I can tell you ... you tell me what channel you watch and I can tell you a whole bunch about you and what you believe. Tell me what radio, tell me what cable TV channel you watch, and I know most of your get-down. I know what's gonna tick you off. I know what's gonna make you get all riled up and stirred. Like, we are so split now. You don't go to the moon like that. You don't solve big challenges. Like the reason why Social Security is still on the table now, and they can't get rid of Social Security, is because everybody gets it. Everybody's involved. My grandma, rest in peace; your grandparents, may they rest in peace. It impacts everybody. When they say everybody thing, things tend to stick. This has to be an everybody thing or it's not gonna stick. It can happen. But the bugaboo , the thing that will undermine it, is our inability to love our neighbor. To work together. And we just get split off, whatever tribal designations we have, and just everything falls apart. Since we don't like each other anyway, half the time. All we need is a little bit of a crack and it just falls apart, you know?
Susan Lambert:Yeah, for sure.
Kareem Weaver:Yeah. Anyway.
Susan Lambert:We could talk for much longer.
Kareem Weaver:We could. It's all good.
Susan Lambert:Yeah, it's all good.
Kareem Weaver:It's all good.
Susan Lambert:Thanks for saying yes.
Kareem Weaver:Anytime .
Susan Lambert:What do you think? Thanks for saying yes? <Audience cheers, long applause>
Kareem Weaver:You know, it's actually very encouraging... and we're at the Plain Talk conference, but people actually care about literacy. They actually care. Sometimes you wonder, does anybody care about this? You know, especially when you're a young person. Does anybody see me struggling? Does anybody care about this? But it is heartening to see and hear and talk to people. Not just in a performative way. They actually care about it. Beyond the bumper sticker. They actually do care. That is encouraging to me, as a citizen , that we have a fighting chance to solve this thing .
Susan Lambert:Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Kareem Weaver, co-founder and executive director of FULCRUM. Full and Complete Reading is a Universal Mandate. We'll have links to more about FULCRUM and Kareem's work in the show notes. And thanks to the Center for Literacy and Learning, for putting on another fantastic edition of Plain Talk about Literacy and Learning. Thanks to you all who came and joined us for the live taping. Science of Reading: The Podcast is brought to you by Amplify. For more information and how Amplify leverages the science of reading, go to amplify.com/ckla. If you haven't already, please subscribe to Science of Reading: The Podcast wherever you listen. We'd also be grateful if you rated us and left us a review. Next time on the show, we're bringing you an important conversation with Zaretta Hammond, author of Culturally Responsive Teaching and the Brain. The conversation is all about the importance of both justice and joy.
Zaretta Hammond:They have to be braided together, just like Scarborough's Reading Rope is Braided together.
Susan Lambert:That's next time on Science of Reading: The Podcast. Thank you so much for listening.