Science of Reading: The Podcast

Everything is literacy, with Susan Lambert, Ed.D.

• Amplify Education

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In this crossover episode Susan Lambert joins host Ana Torres and Classroom Insider Eric Cross from sister podcast, Beyond My Years. Together, the trio dive into the idea that all educators contribute to—and thus must invest in—student literacy development, regardless of the content they teach. Throughout the conversation, they discuss how all teachers are literacy teachers, offer four simple tips for developing academic language in any classroom, and explore why Susan still doesn't feel like a "seasoned educator" despite over 30 years in education. Finally, Ana and Eric discuss what they learned and Eric shares his top three takeaways from Susan.

Show notes:

Quotes: 

“Reading and writing and understanding language is not just an English language arts teacher's responsibility. It's the responsibility of every educator to communicate their discipline and the words and the concepts from their discipline to their students.” —Susan Lambert

“[The Science of Reading movement] is not being led by one person or another person. …  I'm part of a greater community, and to know that I play a certain role or part in that community actually gives me a lot of inspiration on days when it's really, really hard.” —Susan Lambert

“Any teacher in a classroom, no matter what content area they teach, is teaching something about language.” —Susan Lambert

“The more that we can sharpen our tools and our skillset to be those teachers of literacy, the faster we're going to see improvements in learning in our classrooms. They're not two separate things.” —Eric Cross

[00:00:00] Susan Lambert: I'm having a hard time with this. Hard time with this. I cannot not be in control at a podcast recording.

[00:00:09] Susan Lambert: Hey listeners, it's Susan. I really love hosting this podcast because I love asking questions directly to the leading thinkers in researchers in the literacy space. I don't love being on the other side of the interview quite as much, but Beyond My Years, our sister podcast here at Amplify, recently came calling. After launching last year, host Ana Torres and the Beyond My Years team already received a Webby Award for their debut season. Ana is now getting ready to launch Season 2. Each episode is going to tackle one of the biggest challenges that educators face, for instance, how to truly develop students' critical thinking skills and the research on joy and how laughter can actually transform a school.

[00:00:59] Susan Lambert: And Ana invited me to address a challenge that's near and dear to my heart, the importance of developing students' academic language and background knowledge. I couldn't say no. So what you're about to hear is my recent appearance on Beyond My Years.

[00:01:19] Susan Lambert: I talked about the research on academic language, offered some strategies, and even discussed some things about my own journey in education that I've never shared before. So take a listen and please subscribe to Beyond My Years. There's a link right in the show notes.

[00:01:41] Ana Torres: This is Ana Torres, and welcome back to Beyond My Years from Amplify. I am here with our Classroom Insider, Eric Cross. Eric, can you believe that we are less than a month away from launching Season 2? 

[00:02:02] Eric Cross: Yeah. It's exciting, especially after coming off the Webby Award and even though it's break for many educators, the school year's approaching and we need to get these tips and tools out there. 

[00:02:12] Ana Torres: Now, on Season 2, we are taking on some of the biggest and the most common challenges that educators face. So each episode we're going to be focusing on a different challenge. I'll be joined by the biggest names and leading thinkers in education. These are seasoned educators who are in our corner, and I use the word our.

[00:02:34] Ana Torres: They're going to be sharing their tried and true solutions to help you take on these challenges and extend your reach. I'm going to have Eric share a couple of those with us. 

[00:02:45] Eric Cross: Yeah. One is where to start when you're a new teacher and everything is new, everything seems like a priority. That's a big one. 

[00:02:51] Eric Cross: Another one is finding the joy and keeping that passion. How do you stay grounded in that? And then how do you find your teaching style? It's like finding your voice. How do I live in that to really get the best out of myself for my students? 

[00:03:02] Ana Torres: We've got some big name guests that are going to tackle those challenges.

[00:03:06] Ana Torres: Just like Season 1 though. Eric will be joining me at the end of every single episode so that we're here to unpack all of that. 

[00:03:14] Eric Cross: Yeah, I'll be taking the episodes and doing what a science teacher does and dissecting and breaking them down into some takeaways that we can have. That's what I do naturally when I listen to podcasts, and so I'll be sharing my notes and big takeaways with you, Ana, at the end. 

[00:03:27] Ana Torres: I really enjoy unpacking that with you. And Eric will also be joining me at the beginning of each episode, and he's going to help kind of set the topic at the heart of the episode, help me set that up. 

[00:03:39] Eric Cross: I love the things, the changes that we've made. Season 2 is going to be awesome. 

[00:03:42] Ana Torres: And as we're speaking of setting up the episode since I have you here with me, Eric, let's preview today's episode. And it will be our final summer interim episode before we officially launch Season 2 on Sept. 17. Yes, you've heard it here, we are launching Season 2 on Sept.17, and the topic that we're going to be talking about is why it's so important for all educators to help develop their students' knowledge and also their academic vocabulary. 

[00:04:16] Eric Cross: I love the topics that apply to every teacher, no matter what grade and what content area. Developing language and new knowledge is what learning is. And anything that helps us do that better helps our students do better and learn better.

[00:04:29] Ana Torres: This particular guest is going to talk about her aha moment. Yes, I said the word her so you'll maybe be able to deduce who it could be, right? That kind of set her on her path to becoming a true expert on developing students' academic language and their knowledge. So I'm going to bring her on now. And then Eric, we're going to reconnect to do what you call dissecting of the episode, and we're going to break down the conversation. Sound good? 

[00:04:55] Eric Cross: Sounds good. I'll talk to you soon. 

[00:04:57] Ana Torres: All right.

[00:05:01] Ana Torres: Oh my gosh! Today is the day that I have been waiting for for a very long time. As you know on Beyond My Years, we bring the voices of successful, seasoned educators who share their stories and insights from their careers to help you thrive in your own classroom or school. All this time there has been an incredible seasoned educator working in the next studio over. Doctor, and yes, I said Doctor, Dr. Susan Lambert, the host of our sister podcast, Science of Reading: The Podcast. It all started there. And if you listen to that show, you know Susan does an amazing job of getting literacy experts from around the world to open up about the research. But Susan herself has had a very fascinating career working as a teacher, a principal, and more.

[00:05:53] Ana Torres: I've long wanted to have her on Beyond My Years. Yes, I wanted to have her in Season 1, but I'm so excited that we're able to have  her here today. So listeners can hear Susan Lambert like they've never heard her before. And with a brand new season of her podcast launching on Sept. 10, now is the right time to finally have her on this show.

[00:06:16] Ana Torres: On today's episode, Susan is going to make a case for why all educators should care deeply about helping students develop knowledge and academic language. Hear, hear, Susan. And she's going to share some strategies for you to help build students knowledge and academic language effectively, so you can hear my excitement.

[00:06:36] Ana Torres: So I'm going to stop there 'cause I'd like to welcome my podcast sister, Susan Lambert. Welcome, Susan. 

[00:06:43] Susan Lambert: Thank you so much for having me. What an amazing buildup to, I hope it won't be a disappointing episode. I'm really excited to be here, Ana. Nobody does it better than you. So thank you for bringing great educators on your podcast and launching them into this sphere of listeners. 

[00:07:03] Ana Torres: Can I do this, Susan? Please indulge me in doing this. Can I congratulate you with our listeners on becoming Dr. Susan Lambert? How does it feel? 

[00:07:15] Susan Lambert: Yay. Thank you very much for that congratulations. I appreciate it. It really was an amazing accomplishment.

[00:07:22] Susan Lambert: It was an amazing journey. The journey was better than the accomplishment. I will say that because I'm a lifelong learner, but it's pretty cool actually. 

[00:07:31] Ana Torres: Not only that, Susan, there's more good news, right? You've recently launched a new series from Science of Reading: The Podcast, and you are getting ready to launch Season 10. You heard it right listeners! Season 10. Tell us all about it. 

[00:07:48] Susan Lambert: Yeah, I'm pretty excited about it. And you know, one of the reasons that I went back to get this doctoral degree is because of the podcast, right? Listeners on Science of Reading: The Podcast, have heard me say that before. Because I really felt this responsibility to deliver the kind of content that was actually research- based and have some kind of lens or view. So, I am really excited that we have taken some of those previous episodes and bundled them together in this thing that we're calling Essentials episodes. And what we did is we decided on a few key topics. The first one we actually looked at writing and said, "What have we done with writing all across these episodes and how can we bring this together?"

[00:08:28] Susan Lambert: So that's pretty cool, was the writing one. 

[00:08:31] Ana Torres: Sounds cool.

[00:08:31] Susan Lambert: Yeah. Very cool. You know, everybody wants to know about writing, especially in the Science of Reading movement, right? 

[00:08:36] Ana Torres: Absolutely. That's great. 

[00:08:38] Susan Lambert: And the second one we put together was all about comprehension. And. Let me talk about that in a minute. But along with these Essentials episodes, we've got this listening guide, which is so cool because what it does is it takes that Essentials episode along with the episodes that we used to build that Essentials episode, and really gives folks some professional development so they can dive deeper when and where they want to.

[00:09:04] Susan Lambert: So I'm super excited about that. Can we talk comprehension though? Because we did the most recent Essentials episode on comprehension for two reasons. One, it's a huge topic. 

[00:09:19] Ana Torres: Absolutely is. 

[00:09:20] Susan Lambert: So much to talk about, and I feel like the Science of Reading community is just dying for more information about comprehension.

[00:09:28] Susan Lambert: It's a ultimate goal as a reader, right? If you can't comprehend what you're reading... 

[00:09:32] Ana Torres: What's the point of reading it? 

[00:09:34] Susan Lambert: Yeah. That's right. 

[00:09:35] Ana Torres: Yeah. 

[00:09:35] Susan Lambert: But this Essentials episode is really going to help launch us into Season 10, and guess what? Season 10 is all about. 

[00:09:43] Ana Torres: What's it all about? Susan? Tell us. 

[00:09:45] Susan Lambert: Going deeper in comprehension, so we're going to do everything from orthographic mapping to syntax to issues in assessment. It's going to be amazing. 

[00:09:55] Ana Torres: She's Dr. Susan Lambert and there is season 10 coming up. Now, the good stuff right? Who is Dr. Susan Lambert? That's what our listeners want to hear more about. So Susan, let's start with the biggest question. How long have you been in education, Susan? 

[00:10:14] Susan Lambert: It's about 30 years. 

[00:10:16] Ana Torres: So we're three decades in. Wow. 

[00:10:18] Susan Lambert: We're, yep. Three decades in. 

[00:10:20] Ana Torres: I bet a lot of people don't know this, but you actually did not want to be a teacher. We've had this conversation before where I literally came out of the womb knowing that I wanted to be a teacher, but she did not.

[00:10:33] Ana Torres: And actually Susan has a really fun story to tell about how she ended up becoming a teacher.

[00:10:39] Susan Lambert: Yeah, I never, well, it's not that I didn't want to be a teacher, I never thought to be a teacher, I guess. Let's put it that way, right? So I never thought I would find myself in education. I probably would've been, you know, I wanted to be an engineer. Just because my dad was an engineer, right? And it kind of bucked the system. I was a woman. And you know, girls don't do that stuff. Anyway. Well, I ended up having children young, but that's a whole other story. That's the world may never know side of Susan Lambert. There you go. But I got into education because one of my children had a hard time learning how to read.

[00:11:15] Susan Lambert: And I know this is not an uncommon story for some of us that are in the Science of Reading. It's an experience that leads you to protect your child, find answers for your child, and then make sure that other kids and parents don't have to go through the same kind of trauma that you went through with your child.

[00:11:35] Susan Lambert: So it was because of my son Michael, who's dyslexic. That's what launched me into education because you know, like I was young, so guess what I was going to do? I'm going to go into education and change the world. 

[00:11:47] Ana Torres: Absolutely. Well, and believe it or not, 30 years later, you have made such an impact in the educational field.

[00:11:55] Ana Torres: So, you decided to become a teacher. Your experience with your son who's dyslexic, and, I think we've had conversations, my baby has severe ADHD, that does make us better educators, right? So you made that decision. But at first you didn't think you were going to be happy with your initial teaching job. What happened there, Susan? 

[00:12:14] Susan Lambert: Fun story. So when I came out of my undergrad work, and by the way, fun fact side note is that I never knew about phonics from that program either, so I was still trained in, you know, balanced literacy kind of world. But that's a whole other conversation. When I came and graduated from that program, teaching jobs were really hard to find.

[00:12:36] Susan Lambert: You know, at that time a lot of people were moving to Texas or someplace down south because they needed teachers down there. I had a husband, a house, and a family. I couldn't just uproot everybody 'cause I wanted to get a teaching job. So there were two positions open in the district with these people that are graduating with me.

[00:12:54] Susan Lambert: And so I got an interview for one. I didn't get an interview for the other one, and I was offered the job. But Ana, it was in a Core Knowledge school. What is a Core Knowledge school? And of course the other position that was open was in a place where you created your own units and they had a lot, you know, a lot of creativity. 

[00:13:17] Ana Torres: And is that where you want it to be? The other one? 

[00:13:20] Susan Lambert: Oh, of the two, of course. What teacher doesn't want to be creative? Use their creativity right? That's the fun factor of bringing, you know, bringing instruction to life for kids. So I took the job. I mean, what am I supposed to do? 

[00:13:34] Susan Lambert: So I took the job at this Core Knowledge school, and I tell you I was not happy about it. Because, you know, the Core Knowledge Sequence, this is not the same as CKLA, by the way. Right? The Core Knowledge Sequence outlines in kindergarten through eighth grade, what kids should know in every content area, ELA, math, the arts, like everything science. 

[00:13:56] Ana Torres: Very interdisciplinary. Right. 

[00:13:56] Susan Lambert: Right. Very interdisciplinary. It's like, well, what creativity is there in that? They're telling me what I have to, you know, "Ooh, waah, wa." I'll tell you what, three weeks, three weeks into that job, I'm like, "Oh my goodness, there is something to this. And I am so glad I took this job." 

[00:14:16] Ana Torres: Three weeks in though? Like, wow. Like your whole entire perspective changed in a matter of three weeks. What happened, Susan? 

[00:14:24] Susan Lambert: Well, I was pouting about having to teach things like ancient Rome. Did you ever learn anything about Ancient Rome and you're like, they don't prepare you and teacher education to teach about ancient Rome?

[00:14:34] Ana Torres: No, they do not. 

[00:14:35] Susan Lambert: And so I was pouting about having to teach, you know, topics like this. But here's what happened, I got this group of third graders who had been at the school since kindergarten. This school, when I came into it, had a waiting list of over ,1200 kids. And so there was very little turnover with teachers, very little turnover with students.

[00:14:55] Susan Lambert: And these kids came to me and they were telling me all these things about like ancient Greece when we started to talk about ancient Rome, right? Like all this knowledge they had acquired from kindergarten and first grade and second grade, and all of a sudden it's like, "Oh wow. These kids are like little college students because not only do they know things, they're super excited about what they know and learning more." And so when I saw that, it's like, wow. 

[00:15:23] Ana Torres: Wow. Thank God it happened in three weeks, right? That it didn't take you the whole year. Right? 

[00:15:27] Susan Lambert: You know how we pouter's got a pout, right? But yeah, it happened pretty quickly. It was a real aha moment for me. 

[00:15:34] Ana Torres: And we're all happy for it, Susan, that you actually had that aha moment so quickly, and thinking about, you said that used the word pout. I would say it was more you were scared. It's always fear, isn't it, Susan? We're scared of what we don't know. 

[00:15:49] Susan Lambert: Yep. Yep. Yeah, it probably was fear because, you know, it's scary as a teacher to stand up in front of a group of students and try to teach them something you don't really know deeply. 

[00:15:57] Ana Torres: Exactly. 

[00:15:58] Susan Lambert: And relinquishing a little bit of that control to students. It's that interaction, that co-creation. 

[00:16:03] Ana Torres: So we're sharing that story because developing students' knowledge and also their academic language is something you are now very passionate about, and we're going to dive into some strategy in a bit. But first, can you make the case for why all educators should care about developing students' knowledge and academic language, Susan, and I think you are actually the best person to make this case. 

[00:16:30] Susan Lambert: Yeah, I can, I'm going to try. I'm going to try to convince the listeners at the end that any teacher in a classroom, no matter what content area they teach, is teaching something about language.

[00:16:43] Susan Lambert: So, when we think about what language is, language is concepts that you can put words to and communicate, right? So there's a language of math, there's a language of science, there's even a language of social studies or history. And I think, you know, Tim Shanahan and his wife did a bunch of work on this called disciplinary literacy, right?

[00:17:05] Susan Lambert: Somebody once said, "Nobody is a native speaker of academic language." It's not like you come out of the womb and understand how to speak academic language or read and write it. 

[00:17:18] Ana Torres: Correct. 

[00:17:19] Susan Lambert: That's why kids come to school. And we often forget that when they're sitting in front of us, we have to give them concepts and words to be able to understand those concepts. And so that's our job as teachers to do that. We're providing academic language in the early grades, kindergarten, all the way up. All the way up.

[00:17:39] Susan Lambert: And you know what's fun about language? You never stop developing language. But what's super important is that if we want students to be successful in successive years and even beyond their schooling, giving them this academic language or the point of view of these disciplinary content [00:18:00] areas is so important. 

[00:18:02] Ana Torres: And you make a great case that it's not just in the literacy space. It can be in the science space, it can be in the math space, and it can be in the social studies space. That, and I liked what you said. You don't come out of the womb knowing academic languages and all of these disciplines.

[00:18:19] Susan Lambert: Can I say one more thing?

[00:18:20] Ana Torres: You may absolutely say. 

[00:18:21] Susan Lambert: You know, the upper part of the rope?

[00:18:22] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:18:22] Susan Lambert: The upper strands of that language development? That is applicable to every single teacher because it includes building background knowledge. We just talked about that. We do that in math, we build background knowledge. We have specialized vocabulary in all of these content areas. We have syntax or ways to put sentences together in these kind of content areas.

[00:18:46] Susan Lambert: And so reading and writing and understanding language is not just an English language arts teacher's responsibility. It's the responsibility of every educator to communicate their discipline and the words and the concepts from their discipline to their students. 

[00:19:06] Ana Torres: Preach. Preach. 

[00:19:07] Susan Lambert: I did. I just did. 

[00:19:09] Ana Torres: Dr. Lambert in action here. So let's dive into some of those tips and those strategies, Susan. So let's first start with developing academic language. What advice can you share with listeners about that? 

[00:19:23] Susan Lambert: Yeah, it's a good one. So I think the first thing that I would encourage us to think about is when we're trying to teach students concepts, and some of this comes from the science of learning too, so cognitive learning science, right? When you are trying to teach a student a concept, what you need to do is you need to somehow anchor that to something they already know or start building that knowledge in small incremental ways, which means that you can't do it in one big session. Right? So this needs to be over time because knowledge develops really slowly. And think about this, right? If you decided that you are going to learn about a new topic, and you sat down and you're like, "It's Saturday afternoon, I'm going to read about this brand new thing." And you cram all this information into your head, and then you walk away and you wonder why on Monday morning you can't remember it, right? That's not the way we learn. The way we learn is put bits of information into our long-term memory, retrieve it from our long-term memory. Add to those bits of information. Put it back in long-term memory.

[00:20:33] Susan Lambert: And so that's why they say language builds slowly and over time, right? The other thing is, is that concepts need to be connected to vocabulary. So anytime you have vocabulary about something, you have knowledge about it. We often say that the vocabulary is a proxy for knowledge, but we want to make sure as we're building concepts, we are also giving students the vocabulary to attach to those concepts so that they can both then expand their knowledge the next time they bring it out of long-term memory, but then they can also build on that because vocabulary is this kind of funny thing that you just don't know a word or not know a word, you sort of know it at a certain level of depth. So I think that's two things and then I guess we already talked about it, but remember you've got to practice it over time. 

[00:21:23] Ana Torres: Absolutely. If you haven't heard her say this, I'm going to repeat it. Knowledge building needs to be happening in tandem with vocabulary. That's, I'm hearing you say. So that is super, super important, and over time, so. I think those are really great tips to give, and as you know, I call them wisdom nuggets, and so Dr. Lambert is dropping hers right now. And so as we talk about developing academic language, that always just made sense to me that students are learning, not only building that knowledge, but that vocabulary needs to be happening in tandem and that academic language is so important that no one is a native speaker of academic language and it is our job to provide that. 

[00:22:05] Susan Lambert: One thing too, I want to add on to that. As long as I interrupted you. Do you remember the Scholastic news? 

[00:22:11] Ana Torres: Mm-hmm. I do. 

[00:22:12] Susan Lambert: There's many of 'them. Or Weekly Reader or something like that? Many of them, right? No offense to any of those, but I used to see teachers use this. I probably used it as a teacher too. And the thing is that they were very small articles.

[00:22:24] Ana Torres: Guilty. I'm guilty.

[00:22:25] Susan Lambert: Really tiny, tiny articles. And so when you cover a topic that way you know who it privileges? The kids that already have the background knowledge about that. 

[00:22:34] Ana Torres: Agreed. 

[00:22:35] Susan Lambert: And it does nothing to help the kids that need that knowledge build that knowledge. It's the same if you are in a math classroom or a science classroom. And so this idea of "over time" cannot be overstated. You know, the importance of staying in a concept and really helping kids develop that. But the other part of that is coherent concepts. Make them connected. So what you're doing is you're building bigger and bigger chunks of information and along with the appropriate vocabulary, so you're developing one of these gigantic semantic webs of understanding inside of their brains. And so that's the part that actually cognitive scientists believe there is no limit on the amount of information we can put in our long-term memory, so helping kids to be able to do that and make it connected is often very helpful. Thank you for letting me preach again another platform. 

[00:23:30] Ana Torres: Absolutely. You are hearing Dr. Susan Lambert really honing in and giving us strategies and actually strategies that are applicable to all disciplinary areas as we talk about building their knowledge and also building that academic language.

[00:23:48] Ana Torres: Anything else you would like to share as it relates to these two topics, Susan? 

[00:23:53] Susan Lambert: I think the only other thing that I would say is don't make this a classroom effort. This needs to be a school-wide or a district-wide effort, because if we're doing this for a certain group of students in one classroom for one year, they don't have the benefit of seeing how this thing develops over time. And I think that's the power of something like the Core Knowledge Sequence, not like that's the only knowledge sequence you need, right? But the concept of it is making sure that as a third grade teacher, I knew what the second grade students were exposed to.

[00:24:29] Susan Lambert: I knew they maybe didn't learn all of it. That's okay. I knew what they were taught and I knew that I was extending on that, and then also preparing them for something that was coming after me. And so a single classroom teacher should never feel like an isolated island, be on an island at all, right? There is this giant hub that we need to make sure that we're thinking about how we're developing our students' knowledge over time, not just within one school year, but across many, many years.

[00:25:02] Ana Torres: That vertical planning is super important, right? And again, it's not just one teacher's responsibility. It makes me think of when I had Simone McQuaige and how she just became a change agent. And so this is a way to, you know, become a change agent in your school and branch out to your district. And so, yeah, these are great things and strategies that are applicable. And because you can't see us, but I always know-- and she's being very polite and not interrupting-- but I do know that Susan wants to add to that. Go ahead Susan. 

[00:25:33] Susan Lambert: One more thing. What we didn't talk about is for what purpose, right? Like knowledge for what purpose. Why? So that we can speak well and listen well, so that we can read well and comprehend better.

[00:25:47] Susan Lambert: But you know what else? So that we can compose texts, so that we can write things better too. All of these things, reading, writing, speaking, listening, we think about them in the world of ELA, but there are input/output mechanisms that are related to all learning all the time, even when we're not in school.

[00:26:08] Ana Torres: Exactly. This is applicable in everyday life. 

[00:26:12] Susan Lambert: Absolutely. 

[00:26:14] Ana Torres: And it is. But here's the thing, I have always been like -- this sound kind of nerdy, Susan-- a lover of language, right? Former fourth grade teacher who loved morphology, you know, who literally got her dual language bilingual babies to actually ... they superseded what was sometimes happening in monolingual classrooms because we took a lot of time learning language. So, this speaks to me as well. But believe it or not, 'cause I could talk to you all day, you know, we are winding down. I have one final exciting surprise for you. Do you like surprises?

[00:26:52] Susan Lambert: Mm, typically not. But bring it on. 

[00:26:55] Ana Torres: Bring it. I'm bringing it on. So you know that the second season of Beyond My Years is launching on Sept. 17, Susan.

[00:27:03] Susan Lambert: Congratulations. That's awesome!

[00:27:05] Ana Torres: Thanks. And so we are going to be debuting some new ideas during Season 2, including a brand new segment. And I'm going to, I want to try this out on you.

[00:27:15] Ana Torres: We're calling it the Wisdom Nuggets segment. So technically we're launching this with Season 2, but you are my podcast sister and I would love to try this with you. It sounds like your game. Are you game, Susan? 

[00:27:29] Susan Lambert: Yeah. Your podcast guinea pig is what I am. But bring it on, Ana, bring it on. 

[00:27:33] Ana Torres: Let's see how many of these questions we can get in two minutes. You ready? 

[00:27:38] Susan Lambert: Go. 

[00:27:39] Ana Torres: If you weren't an educator, what would you do for work? 

[00:27:42] Susan Lambert: There's nothing else I'd rather do. 

[00:27:44] Ana Torres: What's one resource that you would really recommend for educators? 

[00:27:48] Susan Lambert: How about hat off the presses, Science of Reading: A New Teacher's Guide? I think you can probably throw the link up there, but it's going to be on our Amplify Science of Reading site. It's a good one.

[00:27:59] Ana Torres: What excites you most about the future of the Science of Reading movement? 

[00:28:04] Susan Lambert: Oh my gosh, we have so much momentum happening right now, right? Like people are understanding word recognition and I'm seeing the shift. Now that we're talking more and more about language comprehension, I see schools of education changing. I think there is a lot of hope for this movement. I'm really excited about it. 

[00:28:20] Ana Torres: With that excitement, I'm going to shift a bit. What excites you least about the future of the movement? 

[00:28:25] Susan Lambert: I don't want us to lose momentum. That's always scary. 

[00:28:29] Ana Torres: Now, we're going to do a few rounds of this or that. 

[00:28:31] Susan Lambert: Okay. This or that. Here we go. 

[00:28:33] Ana Torres: Whiteboard or smartboard, 

[00:28:34] Susan Lambert: Whiteboard. 

[00:28:35] Ana Torres: Color printed copies or an in-classroom laminator. 

[00:28:39] Susan Lambert: Totally the laminator. Totally 

[00:28:41] Ana Torres: small- group or whole- group instruction. 

[00:28:44] Susan Lambert: Whole- group instruction. 

[00:28:45] Ana Torres: Surprise fire drill during your best lesson or technology completely failing during an observation. 

[00:28:53] Susan Lambert: Well, this isn't fair because when I was in the classroom, we didn't have much technology, so I'll go with technology.

[00:28:59] Ana Torres: What's the first thing you were laminating with your new laminator? 

[00:29:03] Susan Lambert: Well, who knows, but I was always in down in the office doing the lamination, or we had an educational service center that on the weekends was open and I made my kids go with me to cut out stuff for bulletin boards or laminate whatever. What can't you laminate. 

[00:29:20] Ana Torres: The laminating queen guys.

[00:29:22] Ana Torres: Okay. So what book has contributed the most to your work? 

[00:29:27] Susan Lambert: Oh, can I tell you the thing that I'm reading now that's really interesting? So the latest issue of Perspectives on Language and Literacy from the International Dyslexia Association. To your listeners, if they are not a member of IDA to be able to get this Perspectives magazine, it's not that much. They should do it. Amazing information in those. 

[00:29:49] Ana Torres: Thanks for sharing that, Susan. And last one. On tough days, what reminds you of why you're passionate about education? 

[00:29:57] Susan Lambert: Wow, that's like a mic drop one, right? I don't know how to answer that. You know, I think just first of all, understanding some momentum that we're having in the Science of Reading movement is really encouraging to me and the fact that we've been able to move the needle in ways that we've never been able to move the needle before.

[00:30:15] Susan Lambert: So I just ground myself in all the people that are doing all the hard work. It's not being led by one person or another person, but I'm part of a greater community. And to know that I play a certain role or part in that community actually gives me a lot of inspiration on days when it's really, really hard. 

[00:30:34] Ana Torres: Yeah. Well, all right, Susan, that's all we have time for. Again, we could literally talk for days and weeks, but before we go, we want to give guests the chance to give a shout out. Anyone you'd like to shout out right now, Susan? 

[00:30:50] Susan Lambert: I love this question because recently I had a group of teachers come up to me from Anoka-Hennepin District in the Minneapolis area.

[00:30:58] Ana Torres: I just worked with them last week! Oh, sorry, Susan. 

[00:31:01] Susan Lambert: That's so cool. And, and they're like, "We just adopted your CKLA program." And I said, "That is so cool because my grandma, my Grandma Keeler, Flora Keeler, worked at the Anoka-Hennepin School District for 30 years. And she did not start working there until she was over 50 years old.

[00:31:23] Susan Lambert: And so that district has a unique place in my heart. And when they came up and said, "We're from that district!" I just, my heart melted. 

[00:31:30] Ana Torres: So shout out. Shout out to Anoka? 

[00:31:33] Susan Lambert: Yes. Anoka-Hennepin School. 

[00:31:35] Ana Torres: Yeah, yeah! Anoka-Hennepin. There you go. Woo. Woo. Well, thank you Susan. We appreciate your time today. We actually hope to have you back.

[00:31:45] Susan Lambert: I would love to come back. Thank you for hosting me. Thanks for the work that you do, Ana. Amazing. 

[00:31:51] Ana Torres: Thank you, Susan.

[00:31:55] Ana Torres: That was the one and only Susan Lambert, host of Science of Reading: The Podcast. You can catch her recent Science of Reading: Essentials episodes as well as the upcoming season on comprehension by following the link in the show notes. Also, don't forget to grab that brand new free resource that Susan mentioned, Science of Reading: A New Teacher's Guide.

[00:32:19] Ana Torres: We'll have a link in the show notes to that as well. Let's bring back Classroom Insider, Eric Cross.

[00:32:29] Ana Torres: So Eric. You've gotten a chance to listen to my conversation with Dr. Susan Lambert. What you think? 

[00:32:37] Eric Cross: Yeah. Can I just tell you that I love, and I say this with all affection, I love nerdy niches, and so let me break that down. So I am a science teacher. I nerd out on certain things. It could be Star Wars, cars, bugs, anime, sports.

[00:32:51] Eric Cross: And I get excited for other people's passions. You know, when someone's like really into something and like you get interested even though you didn't have any interest before? You're like, really? Wallpaper? Susan is the queen bee of this for the Science of Reading. Like she is. So this was a lot of fun to listen to.

[00:33:07] Ana Torres: I just want to say that this was just a really good example of what we're going to be doing more of on Season 2. We're going to be taking on a key challenge. Another thing that we're going to do is continue to give you that inspiration and tried and true solutions from real experts like Susan Lambert.

[00:33:28] Ana Torres: How does that sound? 

[00:33:29] Eric Cross: It sounds great and one of the reasons why is because one of the challenges that we experience as educators is that the education research is often slow to get to us. Ironically, when it is presented, it's in this like theoretical or inaccessible language, and it makes it difficult to apply.

[00:33:45] Eric Cross: So this is like the big gap between like academia and the practitioner, the classroom teacher. And the podcasts, these episodes are great because it takes kind of the theoretical and it makes it practical. And Susan's episode did not disappoint. It was no different. 

[00:33:59] Ana Torres: So time to unpack, quote unquote, dissect with my Classroom Insider Eric Cross.

[00:34:06] Ana Torres: So, I'd love to hear your takeaways. 

[00:34:08] Eric Cross: The first one was, I kept hearing you both talk about the rope, and I realized that what she was referring to was something I learned from her a while back was Scarborough's Rope. Essentially what it is, it's a framework for showing how reading is made of many skills that are woven together, just like a rope is woven together.

[00:34:25] Eric Cross: And it has to do with word recognition and language comprehension. And as a teacher, when you think about the breakdown of how we develop language and words, that's a whole field that's studied. 

[00:34:37] Ana Torres: Yeah. 

[00:34:38] Eric Cross: And Scarborough's Rope kind of gives a framework for that. It shows how to identify where students are struggling and what you could really do to focus on it. And I'm a teacher and I'm in Portugal right now.

[00:34:48] Eric Cross: And I, as I was listening to the podcast, I was literally living this. I don't speak Portuguese, I'm still trying to get English right, and I'm trying to understand signs and menus and conversations. And when you know, Ana, when you're hungry, you start learning language really quickly because you're trying to figure out like I'm trying to eat, you know what I mean?

[00:35:07] Eric Cross: And when I look at the menus and I'm trying to communicate, I start with a word that I know. So I'm looking at words and then my brain just naturally, I'm looking at roots that are like English or Spanish. I'm looking at the pictures and the signs and the gestures and I'm trying to make sense of what people are saying and bit by bit I'm taking these clues away so that I can communicate.

[00:35:26] Eric Cross: And that's exactly what early readers do. They look at context clues, they look at background knowledge, they're trying to decode this vocabulary. And so Scarborough's Rope really breaks that down on how those things work together, just like how I'm using it right now in Portugal, so I can eat breakfast. 

[00:35:41] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:35:42] Ana Torres: I can tell you what, I'm so enjoying having my seventh grade science teacher get excited about the Reading Rope and how word recognition and background knowledge just play an important role, not just in students' educational journeys, but in life. Eric is experiencing this in real life, in real time right now as he's enjoying his amazing vacation in Portugal.

[00:36:06] Ana Torres: So, as I digress, what was your second takeaway, Eric? 

[00:36:11] Eric Cross: Yeah, it has to do with background knowledge and I just put it simply, we either mine it or we make it. And so to unpack that a bit, we either mine it by tapping into what students already know, or we make it by building the experiences they need.

[00:36:27] Eric Cross: And you and Susan went deep into this talking about the background knowledge, but students are coming to our classroom with funds of knowledge and when we can access that, it makes learning happen, and it accelerates learning. But when they don't have that, that's not the end of the story. We can create that.

[00:36:44] Eric Cross: Now, for me as a science teacher, it's awesome because I can create it through doing different labs and experimentation and phenomena and things like that. But Kate Bala actually did a great webinar or seminar with us at NSTA for K -5 teachers. And one of the neat things, and  I know I'm geeking out on science here, but stay with me, she found ways to link the language that's used in science across all of her curriculum, all of her content areas.

[00:37:10] Eric Cross: So when she's doing English and she's talking about patterns, or she's talking about systems, she's using it in a different context and students are able to transfer that knowledge that they read in maybe a fiction story into a situation when they're learning about weather. Patterns and patterns. Systems and systems. And in that simple teacher move of using the same language, it was easier for students to be able to access and develop their academic language. And when we create those ways, whether it's a field trip, or it's a video, being intentional about pointing out the learning that's there, like pointing out the academic language, pointing out the background knowledge because you know you're going to use it again.

[00:37:49] Eric Cross: And there's a book by Natalie Wexler called The Knowledge Gap, and she unpacks this and talks about it a lot. And, Ana, as I was researching Natalie Wexler a little bit, do you know who the first guest on the Science of Reading, Season 1 was?

[00:38:02] Ana Torres: Natalie Wexler.

[00:38:02] Eric Cross: Like that's legit. And that just, that's just a testament going back to the fact that, look, teachers, there's people who've spent their lives dedicated to researching this. You can distill down really the things that you need to do in a podcast episode, and it'll tell you those practical things right away. That's why I love it. Like I love books, I love podcasts. Just another testament to how the science of reading is really featuring those top people just like we are now in Beyond My Years., 

[00:38:30] Ana Torres: Right? And the fact that as Susan and I, you know, conversed about this, is understanding that Science of Reading is more than just word recognition. It's also building that background knowledge and building that vocabulary in tandem. And so I geek out on all of that stuff too.

[00:38:48] Ana Torres: But I can tell you, I am actually, my heart is jumping out of my chest to see you geeking out as well. And I know just like in Season 1, you're going to have a third takeaway, aren't you? 

[00:39:00] Eric Cross: I am, I try to stop at three 'cause there's always so many. And to go back to what you said originally, I have to thank my, when I was a early teacher, my teaching methods courses, I had some great professors who told us that we were all responsible for teaching literacy.

[00:39:13] Eric Cross: And that was early in my mind as a science teacher. And that goes into my third point, is that we're all responsible for teaching literacy. But I want to add something to that. I want to say everything is literacy. And so, I'm going to kind of redefine it here, but I know literacy we typically understand as reading, writing, speaking, listening.

[00:39:29] Eric Cross: It's incredibly important, but there's a lot of other forms of literacy. There's media literacy, there's digital literacy, visual, data, health and financial literacy, emotional literacy. There is so much literacy that's out there. And so as we kind of expand our understanding of what literacy is, not just in the context of how it is traditionally, but also opening the scope, realizing that when that phrase that said that we're all teachers of literacy.

[00:39:56] Eric Cross: It is true. 

[00:39:57] Ana Torres: It is. 

[00:39:58] Eric Cross: The more that we can sharpen our tools and our skill set to be those teachers of literacy, the faster we're going to see improvements in learning in our classrooms. They're not two separate things. It's not like they're asking someone who's a great chef to learn how to farm. 

[00:40:13] Eric Cross: You know, you don't need to learn how to farm to be a great chef. But what they're saying is, "Hey, if I really want to make for me, science accessible to all students and have these creative, engaging learning environments, then if I develop my skill sets of being a literacy teacher, that's going to carry over to being a better science teacher." They are inseparable. 

[00:40:33] Ana Torres: Agreed. 

[00:40:34] Eric Cross: So, there you go. There was the third one. 

[00:40:36] Ana Torres: And as a K-8 teacher, and specifically in K -5, most of us are self-contained and we're teaching all subjects. So that really is a powerful takeaway as far as, and that's how I always felt, and a lot of K-5 teachers feel, it's a responsibility to teach literacy and literacy is integrated in all disciplines, right? So thank you for hitting home with that particular takeaway.

[00:41:02] Ana Torres: And so I want to recap Eric's takeaways for us. So one, you know, using Scarborough's Reading Rope, and we are going to have information on that linked in our notes here. And so you want to use Scarborough's Reading Rope to identify which reading skills your students need support with.

[00:41:18] Ana Torres: The second takeaway when it comes to background knowledge, mine it, or make it. Love when Eric puts his Eric-ism in things. And then three, we're all responsible for teaching literacy and everything is literacy. Thank you so much, Eric. It's always really great to see you. I am super pumped about Season 2 launching on Sept. 17, because what that means is we'll get to talk again soon.

[00:41:45] Eric Cross: I'm excited too. Keep these great interviews coming. I'm already looking forward to being a stronger teacher this next school year. 

[00:41:50] Ana Torres: Awesome. And so listeners, on Sept. 3, we're going to be releasing our official Season 2 trailer. You don't want to miss it, so make sure you're subscribed to Beyond My Years to get that as soon as it drops.

[00:42:09] Ana Torres: Thanks for listening to Beyond My Years from Amplify. You can find show notes, transcripts, past episodes, and other resources to help you extend your reach at our website, amplify.com/beyond my years. I'm your host, Ana Torres. Our Classroom Insider is Eric Cross. Our music is by Andrew Smolan. Until next time, please remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life.

[00:42:42] Susan Lambert: Phew. It's Susan again. I'm back in control. I hope you enjoyed that and got some new ideas for developing academic language along the way. Please remember to subscribe to Beyond My Years wherever you listen to this podcast. They've got some great episodes in the works and I can't wait for the one with research backed strategies for embracing instructional change.

[00:43:08] Guest: Anyone that is interested in influencing change, one thing that you can do is orchestrate experiences to disrupt on productive beliefs. 

[00:43:16] Susan Lambert: Coming up on Science of Reading: The Podcast, we'll be back in just one week with our official Season 10 trailer. Then in two weeks, we're kicking off Season 10. Our deep dive into comprehension.

[00:43:30] Susan Lambert: Get ready for a fantastic kickoff with Dr. Wesley Hoover. 

[00:43:34] Guest: The only way you get to strong reading comprehension is through strong word recognition and strong language comprehension, and that's been shown across many, many languages. 

[00:43:45] Susan Lambert: That's coming up. Science of Reading: The podcast is brought to you by Amplify.

[00:43:51] Susan Lambert: I'm Susan Lambert. Thank you so much for listening.