Chasing Dreams Against All Odds

Dr. Joyce Nash shares her remarkable journey from financial struggles to becoming a clinical psychologist with two PhDs and authoring eleven books. Her latest memoir "Realizing a Dream" chronicles her path of resilience, academic achievement, and the pursuit of lifelong dreams despite obstacles.

• Starting college at 28 after being unable to afford higher education after high school
• Earning scholarships that enabled her educational journey at Southern Illinois University
• Obtaining her first PhD in Communication before pursuing her dream career in psychology
• Balancing career ambitions with personal life challenges including two failed marriages
• Publishing eleven books including her recent memoir about her transformative life journey
• Advocating for positive self-talk and overcoming negative thought patterns
• Developing professional expertise in trauma recovery and psychological healing
• Finding inspiration through a lifelong love of reading and learning

Visit joycenash.com to learn more about Dr. Nash's books and career. Remember: "Don't talk yourself out of a dream. Take your dreams, follow them, and take them from hope to reality."

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Dr. Joyce Nash
• 5:50 The Journey to Two PhDs
• 10:11 Finding Psychology and Following Dreams
• 16:33 Publishing Journey and Author Advice
• 23:55 Overcoming Fear and Self-Sabotage
• 30:24 Understanding Trauma and Healing
• 41:20 Final Thoughts on Pursuing Dreams

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

She's the voice behind the viral comedy bold commentary and truth-packed interviews that cut through the chaos. Author. Brand creator. Proud conservative Christian, this is Elsa Kurt. Welcome to the show that always brings bold faith, real truth and no apologies.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Well, hello everyone. Today we are doing a very special interview. I am so excited to bring on my guest. She is Dr Joyce D Nash, and she is a pioneering clinical psychologist, health communicator and award-winning author, whose multi-decade career has focused on empowering people to understand their behaviors and to heal from emotional wounds and reclaim agency over their lives. That is so huge, and in her latest book, realizing a Dream, finding Passion in a Career, dr Nash shares her deeply personal journey of transformation and the lifelong pursuit of meaning, bringing together her professional expertise, her resilience and creative voice. And she now continues her work through writing and community engagement, speaking candidly about neurodivergence, chronic illness, trauma and radical care. Dr Nash, it is so nice to have you here. Thank you for joining me.

Speaker 3: 1:18

So glad, Elsa. I'm looking forward to talking to your audience.

Speaker 2: 1:23

Thank you very much. So you hit on some topics that I especially love talking about, but I want to talk to you a little bit about you primarily, and your book and that whole process. So I would love to know your journey into earning not just one but two PhDs. That is really inspiring, especially for an academic slacker like myself. So tell me a little bit about that, would you?

Speaker 3: 1:54

Well, I started my education really early on as a child, watching other children go into school, and I wanted to go into school but I wasn't old enough. I finally got there and the rest of the story for that is in my memoir, realizing a Dream. But when I got to high school I wanted to go to college, but there wasn't enough money in my family for that to happen. A decade later I discovered that I could go to night school at the University of Pittsburgh. So I started that, even though it would take a long time. It would take a long time. It was at least a start. Then a professor said to me you really ought to quit night school and go full time. I said to him I can't afford it. He said if you really want to, you can do it. Well, that was an inspiration. From there I applied for scholarships and, to my surprise, got two scholarships and that took me to Southern Illinois University. I finished my undergraduate degree there and was planning on going back home to get a job.

Speaker 3: 3:24

One of my advisors at SIU said you really ought to go to graduate school. To satisfy him, mostly I applied to graduate schools for a PhD program. I didn't realize that I needed a master's degree to go into a PhD program. So I applied and, to my surprise, I was invited to go my PhD in communication in 1976. But a long-held dream for me was to be a psychologist. But I was in the communication department, not the psychology department. So I graduated from the communication department with my first doctorate, but I kept remembering my dream of being a psychologist. Ten years later I discovered there was a school where we lived that trained people to be clinical psychologists. So I enrolled. Six years later I was awarded a PhD in clinical psychology, but it took me two more years before I was licensed.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Before I was licensed. After that I practiced for 25 years and have been writing books ever since. That's amazing. What an incredible journey of just perseverance really, because that is such a long process, it's so taxing. Of course, you mentioned the financial struggles of that, which you know, and the sacrifice that comes with that I'm sure is, is incredible. Tell me a little bit about what drew you to psychology.

Speaker 3: 5:34

You know I was 21. I remember exactly where I was when I had the idea that I wanted to become a psychologist. I was walking by the dorms of University of Pittsburgh and at that point I thought I'd like to be a psychologist. Maybe that would help me understand some of the people in my life, particularly my mother. So that was my inspiration.

Speaker 2: 6:09

That's beautiful, it really is, and I think it's so powerful and impactful on your own life to gain that kind of understanding, because I think when you have challenging family members or just people in your life, relationships in your life, that you struggle with relating to them or understanding them and maybe even sometimes loving them because of the challenges that they bring into your life, so to be, I think, to be able to understand where they're coming from and the psychology of their behavior, I would imagine it helps give forgiveness if it's needed to give, and just that understanding.

Speaker 2: 6:50

I find the field of psychology absolutely fascinating. The study of people and human behavior obviously is so fascinating to me and, like I mentioned, I was not academic-minded enough to do what you've done, so I have so much admiration for all of that. I want to switch gears a little bit and ask you a little bit more about your book. Now you have a deeply moving part in your book where you had to choose between continuing on that prestigious path or chasing your longten dreams. So what helped you make that leap of faith?

Speaker 3: 7:29

Well, what helped me change from my first PhD to seeking another PhD was I realized that at Stanford I was being taught to become a professor, and the reality was I didn't want to become a professor although it would have been a very challenging occupation but instead I had this long-held dream to become a psychologist. It took me another decade to undertake the information to become a clinical psychologist. What I did was follow a long-held dream. I detail that in my memoir Realizing a decide. Did I want to reveal so many personal things? I thought about that a lot and in the end I decided that I hoped my journey would inspire others to follow their dream and bring it from hope to reality.

Speaker 2: 9:09

I love that kind of encouragement because I think that's exactly what holds so many people back, particularly since we're talking about writing and writing your memoir and sharing such personal information to the world, really, and just opening yourself up for that type of scrutiny. I think there's so many people who would and will and can benefit from doing that, whether they write it for publishing or for their own sake. Right? Would you encourage people to do exactly that, even if it's just for themselves? I personally feel that writing is just so cathartic and I think when you read back what you've written, it's so revealing to how you feel. Would you agree with that? Oh, definitely.

Speaker 3: 9:54

You know, the whole writing industry has changed so much since my first book in 1976. Since my first book in 1976. These days a writer, or a potential writer, needs to think about what kind of book they want to write. The traditional publisher wants to publish a non-fiction book. A non-fiction book, like my first and my second dissertations, requires research and the publisher will take on the job of promoting the book. But another kind of book that writers think about is self-publishing. That wasn't available to me in 1976 when my first book came out, and I did try two self-published books, which are no longer available, but at that time I gave that a try. The kind of publishing my current memoir Realizing a Dream is published under is what's called a hybrid publisher. That means that the publisher and I cooperate to bring the memoir to people's attention. That requires a lot of effort on the writer's table, and so the writer needs to really get acquainted with how they can promote their book.

Speaker 2: 11:47

Yes, that is so true and you're so right. The industry and the options have changed so dramatically. You said you wrote your first book in the 70s. So I mean the changes that have happened since then and I think it was probably so much harder then to get published, to publish because these options weren't even available then. But I agree with you so much that you know you really, as a writer, if you're going to self-publish in particular, you really do need, you owe it to yourself to learn all of these aspects and understand what you're getting into and these options and what they mean.

Speaker 2: 12:25

I know there have been people you know you'll know this term maybe some of our viewers weren't but the pop-up of like vanity presses, you know, really caused a lot of harm to novice writers and prospective authors who kind of got taken advantage of. So, knowing you know what you're doing and what you're getting into, I just love that kind of got taken advantage of, so knowing you know what you're doing and what you're getting into, and I just love that kind of encouragement that you give to you know prospective authors on their own journeys. That's invaluable. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to wrap back around a little bit, though, to your journey. So, throughout your journey, your family dynamics, especially with your mother. You mentioned they played a huge role. So how did your upbringing affect the way that you approached independence and career ambition?

Speaker 3: 13:13

That's a good question and my family for the most part was very happy and very encouraging. In fact, I remember my mother used to say Joyce, you can be anything, you can even be a doctor. So that was helpful to encourage me to move on. It was difficult for me when I couldn't go to college right after high school, but I did what I could and I got jobs and I waited for the opportunity to continue. That's when I discovered the University of Pittsburgh had night classes. So I enrolled in the night classes and because my family had been so encouraging, I continued with night classes until I transferred to Southern Illinois University. My family was very supportive, even though they couldn't help much financially. I made up for that by applying for scholarships and to my surprise I got two scholarships that helped me along. Plus I applied for and got some loans so that I could go off to college. So my family was very supportive of that and it was wonderful when they came to my graduation at SIU.

Speaker 2: 14:54

Wow, that is amazing. Now your title, the title of your book Realizing a Dream. It speaks to awakening long dormant desires and, as a woman who is now in her 50s and did not start her writing journey and her podcasting all of the things that I do now in the public eye I didn't start this journey until I was in my mid 40s, so I consider myself a late starter, a late bloomer. You can call it whatever you want. That's what I tend to call it. Starter, a late bloomer, you can call it whatever you want.

Speaker 2: 15:25

That's what I tend to call it, and it was based on or the reasoning was because a lot of the things that you touch on, really, which is so impactful for me fear, oh my gosh, let's, let's just. We can wrap it all up with fear, fear of the unknown, self doubt. You know all of those things. I would love to know, as somebody who has been doing all of these things for decades now, despite fear and despite things that may have held you back. I would love to know what you would say to women in their 40s and in their 50s or even beyond, who feel like it's too late.

Speaker 3: 15:59

I have one thing to say Never give up. That's the message in my memoir. Follow your dream, be willing to put up with the setbacks and carry on, even if things seem to get difficult. Never give up. It's your dream, you can take it to reality. Make it your testament to life to you. So never give up, you can do it.

Speaker 2: 16:34

Yes, yes, I love that, I love that and I would echo you on that a thousand times over. I think, and maybe you'll agree with me I think the fear of what's to come or what might be, is so much worse than what actually does. And I know from personal experience, like all of my fear of failing, of falling, all of those things and it's not that they haven't happened I've definitely failed, I've definitely fallen, I've made mistakes, I've embarrassed myself and you know all of those things. But the thing that I get to come away with and maybe you can say the same is that when I look back at those failings and those falls and all of those things, I can say, yeah, but I got back up and I'm fine, like the world didn't end.

Speaker 3: 17:47

The sky didn't fall. I you know, yeah, I had to dust myself off, but I was able to dust myself off and I think that is so powerful for any individual and not even not if you're just, you know, not even just if you're in your 40s and your 50s and beyond For anyone at any stage. If you're facing that fear, right, Right, yes, I love that. Rising to a challenge does take some courage and there are setbacks, but you can overcome setbacks. And even though I started my journey really late, I was 28 years old before I started school at the University of Pittsburgh. When I graduated from Southern Illinois University, I was 31. I was 31 when I started at Stanford and so a decade later I graduated from Stanford with my first PhD. So it's been a long journey, and added to that was my journey to become a psychologist. So I hope readers will take away inspiration and courage to follow their path wherever it might lead.

Speaker 2: 18:45

Absolutely, and I believe that they will. In reading that you know, reading a firsthand testimony of going through all the things, and you know you talk about trauma, childhood trauma, the fears and all of those things which is so relatable to all of us, and you know to see those steps, to see somebody who has taken those steps and made those strides despite those obstacles. Tell me a little bit. So you said that you were 28 and then when you started right, and then 31 when you graduated. During that time and I hate to make assumptions, but I'm going to assume that you were probably also starting your own family during that time or you know all of the family dynamics. So you're navigating your academic achievements or goals and also family life. How did you balance those two things? Because that's a huge struggle.

Speaker 3: 19:40

Well, some would say it was fortunate and some would say it's not so fortunate. But I didn't have children. I was so busy with getting educated that I didn't have time for children, and I also went through two marriages that didn't work, two marriages that didn't work and then finally, toward the end, I married a wonderful man and he has been so supportive. But I have gone through my education without children, but with a lot of support from family and eventually from my husband.

Speaker 2: 20:26

That is so awesome and, again, so relatable. For so many people, it feels like you touch on all these different aspects of life that your readers can find so relatable, whether it's, you know, going for your career over raising children, going through divorce, which is totally relatable. All of those experiences lend so much insight, and I think it's always more valuable hearing somebody's story and journey who's been through it and you know not, rather than somebody who has not been through it. You touch on working in a morally questionable firm early in your career, so how did that experience influence your ethical compass and then later, your professional choices? Because that's that's a challenge that also a lot of people face.

Speaker 3: 21:19

My first job was in a small firm only two people actually and I came to realize that these people didn't do what I thought was an ethical job. They offered the opportunity for applicants to get a support from a bank, but they offered to do this by going out to the property and evaluating it. Almost never did these lead to a mortgage, to a mortgage. So I didn't like the kind of thing that first job introduced me to. I was only 18, and I didn't know much about business. So when I got into that first job, number one, I didn't know how to dress professionally. And then, as I observed the goings on of that firm, I realized that what they were doing I thought was unethical. So for that reason I resigned from that job and tried for another job.

Speaker 2: 22:44

That's actually really bold because you know you're stepping into a lane where you have some financial security and to choose, you know your moral compass over that paycheck. So you're 18, correct? Yes, yeah, that's like. Yeah, wow, that's amazing. I want to ask you about this. There's a scene where you overcome a deep-seated fear to perform in an operetta as a child, which that alone. I need to hear more about that, because that's wow in itself. What advice would you give to someone that is paralyzed in fear rooted in early life experiences?

Speaker 3: 23:25

It sounds like you've read the book and I thank you for that. The time you are referring to was about when I was 10 years old and I was afraid of singing. But the local people, the priests and the nuns, were going to put on an operetta. They wanted me to sing solo. Oh my God, that was so terrible, so frightening. As a 10-year-old I heard their encouragement, but it was still very frightening. Our encouragements, but it was still very frightening, I think for people who are afraid.

Speaker 3: 24:09

they need to dig deep, find their dream and be willing to push through the fear. There's a book, an old book, called something about pushing into our fear, in other words, getting that gumption that you have and pressing forward. It turns out, for most people the fear is more imagined than real.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Yeah, there's like a whole psychology to that too. Right, that happens that you actually have to, you know, almost verbally, switch off in yourself. You know and tell yourself right on this topic.

Speaker 3: 24:53

But what happens for a lot of people? They imagine things that are going to happen and they become afraid of what could happen. Most of the time those fears do not materialize. It is possible to talk to yourself and encourage yourself and push forward with positive self-talk. By doing that, you can become your own supporter and it helps by using positive self-talk that says you can do it, keep going and keeping focused on what you want to accomplish.

Speaker 2: 25:49

It's like rewiring your brain, basically right, yeah, yeah, I love that, and I am definitely a person who has had to, and has to, regularly do exactly that. And the wild thing to me, joyce, is when you start hearing, you're really listening to yourself and the things that you say to yourself. Like so many other people, I think in the world that we have a tendency to self-sabotage with the thoughts in our own head, like you know, instead of saying, oh, you just made a mistake, that's okay, move on from it and try again. You know, you're like I'm so stupid, you know. Instead of saying, oh, you just made a mistake, that's OK, move on from it and try again. You know you're like I'm so stupid, you know these are the things and you're. You're literally training your brain to believe that you're stupid. Right.

Speaker 3: 26:33

Right. When we criticize ourselves like that, we become our own worst enemy. It's really important to keep that negative self-talk suppressed, and you do that by thinking more positive things, in other words, focusing on what you have achieved and your ability to do that. So focusing on that kind of thing helps with self-talk, remembering your goal and using that goal as a incentive to keep going. So I'd say be careful, don't get into self-criticism. There's enough criticism in the world. You certainly don't need to do it to yourself. Take courage, keep focused on what you want to achieve and tell yourself I can do it.

Speaker 2: 27:36

I love that. I love that and it goes so far beyond. You know, people like to talk about affirmations and you know just like we're talking about and we forget how truly important and life changing it is to do exactly that. And I think, if people look at all of the people you know I don't necessarily want to say successful people, because that's probably relative but you know, if you look at somebody who is doing something that you aspire to do, you know, imagine yourself doing that instead of saying, you know I'll never be able to do that, you know I'll never be as good as them. How about? Okay, that's just my model of what I want to do. So I think you know yeah, I have to echo you the things that we say to ourselves are so profoundly important and life-changing and can actually help us get on that path that we want to be on.

Speaker 2: 28:27

You mentioned something about reading a moment ago, reading a book or a book that you had read. I see in my notes here that you mentioned that people often joked that you couldn't do anything without reading a book about it first. And that is so much of your story is so relatable. I was always, you know, teased and kind of actually got yelled at as a kid because I always had my nose in a book, like I never, I never, not had a book. Tell me a little bit about that, please.

Speaker 3: 29:13

I have always loved books. In fact, when I was about six or seven, we lived in a second floor apartment me to the section on children's books and I stayed there and I went back on my own repeatedly. I love books and, yes, my parents my mother in particular used to say oh, joyce can't do anything without reading a book. She is so true. In order to learn to write, I read many books on how to write. That was very helpful. I also learned to write by writing, as you well know, because you help people who are trying to write, maybe for the first time. So loving books and loving to learn has been a motivator for me.

Speaker 2: 30:15

Me too, me too, and like you, I remember, as a child, going into the library and I'm not saying it's necessarily the very first books that I picked out for myself, they're the first ones. I remember and are still my most beloved treasures that I have, and it's Beatrix Potter, the Peter Rabbit and all of those beautiful, wonderful stories and those gorgeous illustrations. And I remember walking into. It was our elementary school. Our elementary school had a little library and we would go in there and we'd get to pick out those books, right, and the Joyce. You brought back the memory of that right now and, like my heart is so happy thinking about that and just going and getting to looking at all of those, those titles lined up on the shelves, and knowing that there was, you know, some kind of magic or mystery or information inside those books that was just waiting for me. And I have never lost that affection for books.

Speaker 2: 31:15

And I think you just gave one of the absolute most important bits of advice for new and aspiring authors. When they ask you know how do I become an author? What do I do? And you said it right there read, read, read, read voraciously. Read everything, not just, not just. You know the genre that you want to write in right. Also, read all different types of books because it just it gives you those insights into timing and cadence and pattern and sentence structure and all of those things. And I especially love your love for books. Do you by any chance remember like your earliest favorite book?

Speaker 3: 32:00

Well, I remember. I remember the book I think it was called the the some kind of rabbit, where the eyes of the rabbit were buttons and one of the buttons fell off so he only had one eye the velveteen rabbit, that was the name of it, and I I remember that book because that started my love of animals. And the Velveteen Rabbit is about being loved even if you're not perfect, which is a message that we all need to get. And speaking of writing, which you mentioned, it starts with an idea, but in order to write, the person, the would-be writer, has to dedicate time to do writing. When I started writing this memoir, I started my writing about seven o'clock in the morning and I would write until lunchtime and then after lunch I'd write for another hour or two. Committing oneself to writing at a particular time most of the days of the week is really important and something that a lot of people who don't become authors they think they can skip that part.

Speaker 2: 33:34

Yes, you're so right and I've talked to many people about that very same thing. It's so funny that you brought that up and we're so like minded on that as well. When I started writing, I thought I could only write when, like, the mood hit me and I learned, right, right, and I learned very quickly that, no, you have to. You have to train your, your brain, you know, and your body to treat that as like, almost like a job, as a nine to five job, whatever the case.

Speaker 1: 34:04

Yeah right.

Speaker 2: 34:05

Yeah yeah it's. It's such such a game changer, I want to ask you I'm talking about where I'm getting us over, all over the the writing process. I want to talk a little bit more about the things inside your book that people will really resonate with and, in particular, listeners or readers that are navigating chronic illness or trauma. What practical you know we're pulling in your psychology degrees there. We're pulling in your psychology degrees there. What practical mindset shifts would you suggest or strategies do you most often recommend to people?

Speaker 3: 34:40

Well, trauma is a problem for a lot of people and, depending on the trauma, the treatment is different. There are people who have what's called complex trauma, meaning their trauma goes for a long time. For example, a child who is abused. That doesn't happen just once. That continues on for a period of time. Those people with complex trauma, which includes soldiers that have returned from the war. They need time to talk about this with a person who can listen and be there for them. Many of these soldiers who come back from war need to see a psychologist for a long time to get over the trauma. The same would be true for a child. Although a child doesn't talk, a child plays, and so the therapist would have the means, like a sand tray, for children to act out their trauma.

Speaker 3: 36:18

But when we think of trauma, we can think of abrupt trauma. For example, some years ago we were driving up a mountain and coming down the mountain was a van that turned over almost in front of us. It turned out that this was a van of people who were mentally ill and the driver had lost his brakes and the only way he was able to save it was to drive up on the opposite bank and turn over the van. The van. He did that and he and the other occupants were able to get out the back door. This was a trauma that he had to deal with. At first he couldn't even talk about it. I was there and I went up to him and just was there, present with him, so he wasn't just present with the trauma.

Speaker 3: 37:17

When there is what I'll call an accidental or a short-term trauma, it's helpful to talk to someone who understands trauma. That's likely to be a psychologist or a therapist of some sort, and in a safe space they have to talk about what happened, their feelings and so forth. So trauma is something that needs the ability to review it. It's sort of like eating something, eating a large dinner and needing to digest it a little bit at a time. That's like trauma Eating too much and then being able to consume a little bit at a time. That's just an example, an analogy, but the trauma itself is too big to get over in a quick way. Little by little, that trauma gets incorporated into the mind in a way that is helpful. There are therapies that help people recover from trauma, and one is EMDR, or eye movement sensitivity and retraining. I'll tell you about that some other time, but it's very helpful for trauma.

Speaker 2: 38:58

It's just amazing the advances that have come over the years in helping people through trauma, through life's difficulties that obviously shape every aspect of who we are and how we operate and function in the world. So I have great admiration for the work that you do and you've done for others and now, of course, through this book and just you know this whole other avenue, and I'll quickly mention too you have multiple. Is it 10 books? I think 10 books you've published. Yes, thank you. Yeah, the memoir is my 11th book?

Speaker 3: 39:58

Yes, thank you. The memoir is my 11th book. The 10 books I have written before that are all traditionally published, and I told you what that means the publisher takes the responsibility for publishing and promoting the book. So my first 10 books the first one was published in 1976. The last one was published two years ago. So I have those 10 books available to see on my website, which is joycenashcom, and I have more information about my memoir on the website. So I encourage your listeners to go to my website and read more about all of my books.

Speaker 2: 40:27

You took the words right out of my mouth. It's like you knew I was going to ask you to share with everybody that information so they knew where to find you. And, by the way, your website is beautiful, it's a wonderful website and you know just and your books. They're all in my to be read list. I don't know if you're like me, I have a very long to be read book. We call it the TBR right? Our TBR list is, and those are in it too. I look forward to reading those because they they are clearly a wealth of insight and inspiration and information, of course, on just. You know tools and tips to improve your life in various ways. So I think that's absolutely wonderful and and I so applaud you on your incredible, illustrious career and your prolific authorship Just incredible and again I'll use the word again such an inspiration. Do you have any last message you'd like to give to our viewers and our listeners to help them on their journey?

Speaker 3: 41:28

Well, the most important thing is don't talk yourself out of a dream. Have your dreams, follow your dreams. Of course, we all have dreams, but usually there's one that stands out. Be willing to take that dream under your wing, so to speak, and follow it wherever it goes. Be willing to sacrifice certain things, like time, to get what you want. So take your dreams, follow them and take them from hope to reality.

Speaker 2: 42:15

I love that. That is beautiful. Dr Joyce Nash, I cannot thank you enough for joining me for this wonderful interview. I enjoyed spending this time with you so much. I look forward to reading your other books and for our viewers and listeners, of course, I will be putting all of those links in our show notes and I thank all of you for watching and we will see you guys in the next episode.

Speaker 1: 42:40

She's the voice behind the viral comedy bold commentary and truth packed interviews that cut through the chaos. Author. Brand creator. Proud conservative Christian, this is Elsa Kurt. Welcome to the show that always brings bold faith, real truth and no apologies.