The Dark Side of Faith: Guarding Pat Robertson

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet David Wilcox: From Police Officer to Bodyguard
• 11:17 Politics Changes Everything: The Critical Decision
• 17:23 Ministry Money Diverted: Operation Blessing Exposed
• 24:39 Failed Business Ventures and Ministry Impact
• 33:21 Pat Robertson: The Man Behind the Camera
• 42:08 Truth, Faith, and Personal Responsibility
• 52:16 Closing Thoughts: Keeping Faith Pure

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

She's the voice behind the viral comedy bold commentary and truth-packed interviews that cut through the chaos. Author. Brand creator. Proud conservative Christian, this is Elsa Kurt. Welcome to the show that always brings bold faith, real truth and no apologies.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Well, hey there, friends, we are here today with an interview. I'm super excited about this. As you can see, I do not have Clay with me this time He'll be back in the next one but today this is really fascinating for me. We're going to be talking about what it was like to guard one of the most powerful and polarizing Christian figures in modern history. Today's guest isn't just spilling the tea. He is pouring it from a 500-page kettle, so we're going to buckle up for this one.

Speaker 2: 0:45

My guest today is going to be David Wilco tea. He is pouring it from a 500-page kettle, so we're going to buckle up for this one. My guest today is going to be David Wilcox. He's a former California police officer turned personal bodyguard to the late Pat Robertson, and he's written a bombshell memoir called Protecting Pat Robertson Confessions of a High-Priced Bagman. It is part memoir, part expose and all truth, and he is taking us behind the curtain of the Christian Broadcasting Network, political campaigns and his own personal conviction. So I want to welcome you, david, to the show. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 1:21

Thank you, allison. It's really an honor and a pleasure to be here, absolutely so. I was so glad when a pleasure to be here, absolutely so.

Speaker 2: 1:25

I was so glad when you reached out to me, connected on good old LinkedIn over there, and you were so kind to reach out and offer to come talk about this, and off air, I was telling David that I still call myself every day. I call myself a baby Christian. I think I will live and die as a baby Christian. I will never. I will never know enough and that's okay because it's you know the journey and the learning and you know just the growth is completely worth it and so much of this is absolutely new information to me. So I want to start with you from the beginning and I'm going to shut up and let you start talking in a moment, I promise. So you were a police officer in Oceanside, california. I would love to know your journey, what brought you from there to Regent University and how on earth did you become Pat Robertson's personal bodyguard?

Speaker 1: 2:19

Wow. I was born and raised in Oceanside, California. It's a beach town right on the coast about midway between San Diego and Los Angeles. It's my hometown. It used to be a sleepy little beach community and one of the strong aspects, I guess, is Oceanside has Camp Pendleton Marine Corps Base attached to it and I graduated high school from Oceanside High.

Speaker 1: 2:47

I was a beach lifeguard in California for six years and went away to college, got a swimming scholarship and came back to Oceanside after I graduated and I had a job that summer, lifeguarding. And a friend of mine told me he said uh, hey, he says the Oceanside is looking for some new police officers and they said but it might be a little late for you because the deadline came for the application. So I called the city and they said well, show up, and if we have some absentees we'll let you take the test. They did Uh and uh, I got hired. The second out of about 400 people Took a test and went to work for Oceanside PD, had a short term career. I got injured on duty, got a lot of my right knee missing a lot of duty injury and retired and retired and I fell in love with a woman that I married and she had always wanted to be a producer for the 700 club tv show. And I thought, when she said, well, that's my goal, I want to go to grad school at cbn university, which is now regent university, and I said, okay, well, let's go make your dream come true. So we passed up, we got married, we packed up, moved across the country we arrived in August of all times to arrive in Virginia and it was like I'd been dropped into weather hell from going from a beach community. It was 72 degrees year-round. Anyway, we moved into student housing at Regent University on the campus of CBN and I was a new husband and I wanted to take care of my young bride. I'm going to go get a job.

Speaker 1: 4:32

And I went over to student services and turned in my resume to a beautiful woman named Nancy Keith. I'll never forget her. She just was very receiving and warm and she looked at my resume. I said I want to get a job and I'm going to grad school. So I enrolled in grad school as well and she said oh, you've got police experience. She said do you know Pat Robertson? I've seen him on TV. Sure, I know who Pat Robertson is. And she said well, he's thinking of running for president and he's looking for bodyguards right now. Would you be interested? I said, well, I just have two questions what does it pay and where do I start? You know, and that was pretty much it, I went over and talked to the head of the security department, Jim Small, who's now my best friend.

Speaker 1: 5:16

He was the best man at my real legitimate wedding, my second bride, but anyway, Jim, we met, he hired me, brought me on board and then a few weeks I was living this duplicitous life where I would go to grad school at night, take my grad school classes, get up in the morning with a suit and tie on and I'd be shadowing Roberton throughout the day. And the weirdest part of it was weekends. Friday nights would come and we'd fly out somewhere across the country and he'd be doing pre-campaign stuff. He had started a group called Americans for Robertson, which was his pack, and we would put all of these things under their banner and we would fly out on a Friday night to God knows where and he would have 13, 14 events to do over the course of a weekend, and Sunday night we'd fly back into town and it was back to grad school and it was just, it was a God thing.

Speaker 1: 6:16

And you know we talk about being a baby Christian. My philosophy is we're all baby Christians until we get called home, so we're always learning. We're never quite wise enough, but I had never, ever in my life, really pursued a job. I mean, I always kind of backdoored into a felon tool. I wanted to work at Disneyland when I was in college. I got hired there and just showed up.

Speaker 1: 6:39

They hired me that day and my life's been that way, you know, and I'm kind of like these people that can fall down in a mud pit and wake up and have a diamond stuck in their teeth. It's just. God's been very benevolent to me and I think it's because I just had a real horrible deficit of upbringing. I did not have a father. He left when I was nine months old. My mom was quite dysfunctional and so I pretty much raised myself and, whether you believe this or not, God audibly spoke to me when I was a teenager and he said I know you've never had a real father, but I'm going to be your father and I'm going to provide for you my heart and cry.

Speaker 2: 7:20

You're going to make me cry.

Speaker 1: 7:24

But he told me. He says you've got to just be patient. My heart, I cry, you make me cry. You've got to just be patient and I was, and he's taken care of me. I mean, I have done so many incredible things. I've been able to produce animated cartoons for CBN that have evangelized nearly one-fifth of the world with the Christmas story. I've been past bodyguard, I've traveled all over, I've dined with kings and princes and presidents. It's just been a phenomenal life. But I trusted in him. So that's kind of a convoluted answer to your question, but that's how I became the bodyguard for Pat and I eventually took over the entire security department and, as I wrote in my book, it was really a journey because I started off really, really believing in what Pat Robertson was doing.

Speaker 1: 8:18

I mean I was willing to take a bullet for the man. I loved him. He was doing miraculous things. He had the social program. When he, whenever a hurricane would strike down in the south uh past operation blessing, was down there within 24 hours with hot meals and water. And weeks before fema, you know, and that was a part of his ministry handing out food, or I was giving. I was donating to uh, the 2500 club member. I was giving 2500 a year. I wasn't making a lot of money but I believed in what he was doing. He had literacy programs in the inner cities. He was just doing wonderful things and it was. I was proud. I was so proud to be at his side. And then politics got involved.

Speaker 1: 9:08

Yeah, yeah, that marked the change for you, right, right, like politics has done with so many people's lives, it pollutes them, it draws them, it perverts them, and I watched this taking place very early on with Americans for Robertson. And then, when Pat made his decision and I'll tell you about that if you want the defining moment and I can pinpoint it, and you could give me sodium pedophile and my story wouldn't change we were in the backseat of the company car. We always drove Pat around. He hated limousines. He hated Jimmy and Tammy Baker because they drove around a white stretch limo all the time. Right, he said I'll refuse to get in a limo if you bring me one. We drove him in a dark blue Lincoln Town car. Pat was a big guy, passed about 6'3 and a half. Really, I didn't realize he was that tall. That's why he hired me. I'm 6'5", he gets up behind me.

Speaker 2: 10:03

There you go.

Speaker 1: 10:05

We're sitting in the company car. You're probably too young to remember the movies back in the 1940s or that era where the hero of the story had a little angel and a devil sitting on his shoulders and they'd be trying to sway him over to the side. That's exactly what it was like. Pat was in the backseat of the car, sitting in the middle. On one side he had Rob Hartley who was the money man for CBN. He's like the vice president of development. He controlled the coffers. And on the other side was a guy named Mark Nuttall who was Pat's campaign manager, and I'm not going to go any further because I don't want to get sued. Anyway, I was sitting in the shotgun seat where I normally sat and I was listening to this conversation and Mark Nuttall started off. He said Pat, you've got to give your campaign Americans for Robertson access to the three and a half million names on the CBN donor mailing list. We don't have any money. We need the money. They got deep pockets. Give it. We need it, pat. We need if you want to be president, we need it. Shift over to the angel, rob Hartley.

Speaker 1: 11:13

Pat, you can't do that. First, it's illegal. You can't be a tax exempt ministry status and give to a political campaign like that. Secondly, it's going to confuse the heck out of people. You got these little old ladies out there sending their $20 a month, their own fixed income. Suddenly they're going to get mailing from Americans for Robertson. Pat Robertson, get him in the White House. A couple of things are going to happen. The $20 is going to have to be decided. Am I going to give it to CBN Ministry or am I going to give it to CBN ministry or am I going to give it to the political campaign? So that's going to fragment the donor base. The other people are going to go. Pat Robertson running for president, church and state, forget that guy. I'm going to send my $20 elsewhere. You know, and it went back and forth, back and forth, back and forth and I'm sitting there. I'm thinking we are at the crossroads, we are at a critical point for this ministry.

Speaker 2: 12:04

You remember thinking that in that moment, then even yeah, oh God.

Speaker 1: 12:08

I was just not. Too many things make me anxious, but this really bothered me. And then it came and there was this. They finished talking and there was about 30 seconds of absolute silence. And then I heard Pat's turn to Mark, to the money man, rob Hartley, and he said give them the list. And I got gut punched. Now, fast forward. You guys don't need to know all the gruesome details, you can get that in the book. But here's the result of that one ego-driven decision.

Speaker 1: 12:43

When Pat Robertson came back from politics, when he got his Easter handed to him on what he called the primary super primaries took place. He knew he didn't have a snowball's chance. He came back to CBN 630 employees lost their jobs because the money dropped off by over 40 percent. That one decision, in fact. Pat came back to cbn and for it was. It was decimated and it still was emerging and he took a legal pad, which what he always used to write on, and he walked around the campus, the entire campus, cbn, and he would stop people in the hallway and he would say what's your name, what do you do? Who do you report to? And they tell one. You know, my name is john doe and I work in direct mail marketing and he'd make notes and then he would give the papers to jim small, who was the head of that security department at the time, and he would have all the people that he needed laid off. Now it was Jim's cheerful job to walk around to all the presidents and say Pat wants these people gone.

Speaker 1: 13:56

It was a critical blow. And then it got worse because he got desperate. And I can give you a a bushel full of examples and it'll kind of make you sick to your stomach.

Speaker 2: 14:10

Yeah, so this had to be so difficult for you to witness firsthand. So you're seeing one side of things. The public is seeing something completely different, right, I mean things the public is seeing something completely different, right, I mean, that had to have been one heck of a struggle to just even just to reconcile these two realities, or one's a false reality. The other one is reality your relationship with him. Was it strictly bodyguard person you're guarding? Did you have, like, were you able to have conversations, like could you address any of these things with him? Or was there just that line between you two that you just simply couldn't cross over?

Speaker 1: 14:56

Yeah, that's a great question. Pat knew thousands and thousands and thousands of people and I can tell you point blank, he did not have a best friend that he could call in a crisis. I wasn't it, don't get me wrong. Right, he used me, and before me Jim small, to kind of be his hit man. If he wanted somebody terminated, he'd say I want to, I want you to go. That guy's gone, get rid of him now. And you'd have to go deliver the bad news. He'd have you run errands for him.

Speaker 1: 15:34

I've got dozens and dozens of anecdotes in there. We had a student housing area. There was word that one of the law students was beating his wife down there. So Pat grabbed me in the hallway one day and said David, just grab a couple of guys from your goon squad and go over there, find that guy and take him out back and rough him up a little bit. And I said Pat, are you going to post my bail when he has me arrested for assault and battery? He said we don't know how to take care of it. Just go take care of that. That's the kind of thing you know. He's equipped Ron McGraw on street vengeance, the thing that I, if I, could tell one set of stories that'll really paint the picture. He, he, people are criticizing me for writing the book because they all believe what they saw for 60 minutes five days a week on the 700 Club Fatherly Pat Robertson leaning into the camera, pretty with me now when that red light went off. He was a tyrant.

Speaker 2: 16:38

Was that always or just when the political side came in?

Speaker 1: 16:44

Here's the crux of the entire book that I wrote about that. When he got back to CBN and saw what had happened without him being there 47 percent drop in the money, dropping the money he had an epiphany. He realized oh my God, what's going to happen when I leave this earth to my ministry? There's no way to fill in. And so he panicked and he decided to go after what I call these get rich quick schemes. And I used to tell Pat and I spoke very honestly with him because I didn't care if he fired me or not, I will get another job, you know, and I carried a gun. So but I tell him, pat, why are you doing this stuff? There's an old saying you dance with the one that brought you to the dance. You didn't get where you are doing multi-level marketing and get rich quick scheme. You got here because of ministry.

Speaker 1: 17:41

He ministered to people and he just kind of blew me off. You know he just he was focused. He started getting involved also with direct mail, a multi-level marketing. He started a company called benefits plus. They were selling coupon books and he was going around the country telling people they can make a 10, $15,000 a month selling coupon books. And he was going around the country telling people they could make $10,000, $15,000 a month selling this thing For the people that he hired to run it. I got spidey sense going on and I was like these guys are creepy. I told him. I said I'm going to run background checks on them, pat, because they're in a fiduciary capacity for you.

Speaker 1: 18:19

And he's like and they love the Lord, they're going to tell me they're going to make a lot of money. They were all corrupt Bankruptcies, fraud, embezzlement and he gave them the keys to the kingdom. They were off property that day. He got involved with it. People can Google this. Check out a guy named Mobutu Seseseko. He was the dictator of Zaire. We went over to Zaire and Pat kind of deal to do diamond mining in Zaire and he set up a private company and Mobutu was a butcher. He killed tens of thousands of his own people and I thought what's this minister, this Baptist minister, doing, you know, having his side tied to President Mobutu? And then he got involved with a guy named Charles Taylor, the dictator of Liberia. Taylor was eventually tried by the world court for crimes against humanity. He wiped out tens of thousands of his own people and Pat had a gold mining operation with him.

Speaker 1: 19:26

And here's where the duplicity came in. It's very graphic. Pat had this group called Operation Blessing. That used to do really good work. I mentioned it before. They'd go down take care of hurricane victims. Johnny on the spot. Great, great operation. Pat gets on the spot. Great, great operation. Pat gets on the air.

Speaker 1: 19:47

And there was a migration. I can't give you the exact dates, but there were nearly a million refugees coming into Zaire, coming into Zaire, and I can't remember the specific details, but they were fleeing by the truckloads getting away from I want to say it was Liberia, but anyway, it's not important. They were refugees, they were scared, they were living in these dirt fields out in Zaire and they had a cholera outbreak and 10s and 20s and 30s every day were starting to die of cholera. So pat had this thing he had set up years prior called the flying hospital. It was an l-1011 jet equipped state-of-the-art operating rooms, doctor's treatment rooms. They were flying. They were supposed to fly around the world and do all these things. Well, one thing with Pat Robertson it was always ready, fire aim. He never did his homework. It was like great cause, let's do it. He never checked it out. The plane couldn't land in like 30, 40% of the airports in the world. It was a huge plane. So he has this plane, the flying hospital, and he comes on the air and he's and he's leaning into the camera. He says folks, we've got these pictures of these people dying in the fields of zaire, they've got cholera. Here's my vision. I want to get a hundred doctors, together with my flying hospital, send drugs the workers over there and we're going to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. I need your money now for Operation Blessing and the money started coming in.

Speaker 1: 21:24

It looked like a big success. Well, it was a diversion. About maybe 3% of the money went to its cause. They sent aspirin and Tylenol. They sent a handful of workers and Doctors Without Borders were there and there's a film out. I don't have the name of the video, you can google it, but, um, they said, yes, cbn had people over there. They were running around, about a dozen of them throwing bibles at people and treating them with aspirin. We don't treat cholera with aspirin, okay, so where did the rest of the money go?

Speaker 1: 21:59

Coincidentally, pat robertson's uh, diamond gold mining operation. Uh, one of the money go. Coincidentally, pat Robertson's diamond gold mining operation. One of the companies that he set up he owned 100% of it was nearby. They paved the landing field so these planes that he bought could get in. There's a photo in the book of them offloading a diamond mining dredge for Pat's diamond mining operation, all paid for by Operation Blessing and the refugee cholera money. And people were in shock. They don't believe me. I was like track it down, it's there.

Speaker 1: 22:33

So he started raising this money under false pretenses and then he starts doing gosh, what else? Oh, he decided he was going to take over uh oil refining in california. During their gas issues this guy pitched a deal to him. He says there's a there's a uh refining uh facility in long beach, california. You can pick it up for pennies on the dollar and we can put ships off the coast of long beach and pipe the oil in and you can refine it and make gasoline. You'll be wealthy beyond compare. Let's do it. They pumped in millions and millions and millions of dollars of ministry money. Never created one drop of gasoline, never refined one drop of oil. The refinery was under EPA restriction. It had so many EPA violations it would have cost a zillion dollars to get it up and running properly. He just never did the homework, he just always shot from the hip.

Speaker 1: 23:26

The book's full of these things. The book is transitional. It was Pat Robertson, the good guy doing great ministry work and then politics, pollution, ethics have been skewed winner at any cost. And he starts coming up and says I got to do something to bring constant long-term money in to pay to run the ministry when I'm gone and none of it worked and I think it's because God went. I'm taking my blessing off you, my son, because you're not listening to me and I, I got to a point where I was just like I can't tolerate this anymore. I can't keep this guy alive and do his bidding for him when he's corrupt. I don't like that. So I know I'm long-winded, but it's a very convoluted thing that he did and people say, well, that's Pat Robertson, he's the 700 Club guy. He prays for people. Sure, he does, sure he does that feeds the machine. That's the whole grail. Was that tv show? And, um, you know, the rest is history.

Speaker 2: 24:31

He imploded well, you, um, I wouldn't call you long-winded, I would call you, uh, preemptively answering my questions. You know, I'm looking as as're chatting, I'm looking at my questions like, yep, he's answering that. Yep, you are making my job so easy. You know, you gotta make me work a little bit. Okay, fire away. I'm kidding. Well, so you know, I'm listening to all this and throughout it I'm thinking how did they let you ever publish this book? Because this is, you know, this, this book, because this is, you know, this is very damning, provable, uh, information, and you know, obviously tarnishes that that image of this beloved, uh figure, um, you had to have had tremendous opposition to this. Or did they just know that you have the receipts and there's nothing they can do about it? Or did they try?

Speaker 1: 25:21

well, when I, when I I worked for pat originally for a period of time, I left for a very brief window of time to go back to california. I have my master's degree in animation and film and I I created an animated film. It won a student academy award. It was very irreverent. I'll send you a copy of it. And uh, and when I came back I took over. I built an animation studio for cbn. Because I broke my proposal. I said you got everything here you need to produce animation, except the studio. Give me some money and I'll build it for you. And then we that's we ended up doing these videos that have evangelized the world. But then I came back to CBN. That's when I was full-time bodyguard and they stumbled. Remember I told you Pat was ready, fire aim. He said brother, I need you to. He said Jim Small says you're the only guy in the property that can keep me alive. Will you take over for him? I said sure, I'd be honored to. Didn't ask me to sign an NDA.

Speaker 2: 26:21

I was wondering about that. That was one of the first things. I'm like where's the NDA? How did he? How did they not do an NDA? That's crazy.

Speaker 1: 26:30

Because nobody everybody's scared to death of Pat Robertson at CBN. He used to walk down the hall. Pat would always wear cowboy boots and he walked down. The third floor hall was called uh, vice president's row. All the vps have their offices up there and you hear them clomp, clomp, clomp and it was like the angel of death was coming down the hallway. The vice presidents would run into their offices and close their door and sprinkle imaginary blood over the doorpost, hoping the angel of pat would pass and, you know, kill him. You know, and and so he. So nobody would ever go to Pat and say, pat, you screwed up, you didn't get an NDA from David, you need to go get that. You know, nobody had the backbone to do it, so I rode the train. I figured, hey, man, all bets are off, I can do whatever I want because they've got no legal recourse.

Speaker 2: 27:23

And yeah, I've got a lot of stuff in there, you know did you get in your personal life, friends, family, anyone, did anyone give you pushback on writing? Because I mean, it's, you know, it's a tell-all, basically it's a memoir, it's a tell-all, it's, you know, very exposing of of and that can, let's be realistic, you know, even in our nice pretty Christian world that could potentially bring threats and all kinds of negative attention on you and your family. You know, I'm thinking all of the things, retaliatory actions, I mean so much could have been and maybe was brought upon you and yours Was anybody telling you and I saw that reaction. So there must be a yes to that.

Speaker 1: 28:07

Oh, yeah, it was a big yes when I first posted it. I think I put it on Facebook and I'm not a real social media guy, I'm kind of private in that regard. I put it on Facebook and there were a lot of CBN people on there and boy I mean, the floodgates opened. I got a couple of messages from some people that I really loved and respected. One guy had actually worked for me in security He'd been a security aide and he says how dare you condemn Brother Pat?

Speaker 1: 28:41

I took him to the airport five or six times and he was nothing more than a saint and a gentleman. I said Jerry. I said I venture to say I spent more time with that man in one day than you did with your entire career at CBN, so you've got no room to criticize me. And then I had one said that I was they were likening me to Satan and I was a betrayer and I was a Judas. And I said they said he's done wonderful things through his ministry in the 700th. I said, oh, I agree with you. I said, 100%, he's done some wonderful things. He's also done some really shady things. And I said why don't you follow up with the 640 people who lost, who were coworkers of yours that lost their jobs because he decided to go into politics. Why don't you see how they feel about Pat Robertson?

Speaker 1: 29:33

And you know it's fine, I'm a big boy. I mean, when I was a cop I had two motorcycle gang members put a $25,000 hit on me to kill me because I sent them to prison, and so I'm no stranger to that. I've lived a good life. You want me? Come and get me. I'm here, I know where I'm going. But people are visceral. They either love the guy or hate the guy. There's no middle ground with him. He's very polarizing, but yeah, I mean love the guy or hate the guy. There's no middle ground with him. He's very polarizing, but yeah, I mean people entitled their opinion. But I've got all the tangible evidence. I was there. I mean I, I did a lot of this stuff. I delivered a lot of his messages and I took him everywhere you know for that period of time, and it's it's all the truth. It's in book. That's why it's so long.

Speaker 2: 30:20

What would you say your biggest hope is Like what would your goal, what would you say your goal was for publishing that book? Is it just? I know? You know, probably you're a seeker of truth, you know. Is it just for the sake of truth? Is it for any hope of reform in the upper echelon of the Christian community, particularly you know, these broadcasting companies and if they're running for political office or any of those things, I just you know we've talked off air about accountability and you know I'm such a huge fan of accountability, even when I'm the one that has to take it for something. You know I just truly love truth, you know facts and all of that. Does that kind of resonate with you?

Speaker 1: 31:06

Yeah, that's a great question. In fact, we're in sync today on questions. I was thinking about something comparable, you might ask. My big takeaway from the book and I think I mentioned it in there pretty well is God's a big God. He's everywhere.

Speaker 1: 31:25

And those of you who go out and join a church and I'm not against church, I was a big churchgoer. I was a junior warden in the Episcopal Church here in Chesapeake, virginia, for many years. I go to church religiously, no pun intended, but, um, the takeaway I want you to get is don't put your faith in the religious leaders. You don't need them to have worship time with god. You don't need them to point their bony finger. I I I mentioned, I think, in the book about these pastors who get up there and they put their bony finger at you. You're looking at porn and you're a sinner. You know, at the time I wrote that book, 60 plus percent of all pastors were actively involved in online pornography, so it's kind of the pot calling the kettle black. So men are corruptible. Men are fallible. Men are pastors. Women are pastors. They're corruptible. Men are fallible. Men are pastors. Women are pastors. They're corruptible. Okay, don't put too much stock in them. Okay, they're not God Jr.

Speaker 2: 32:32

They don't. I think that is one of the biggest. From what I understand, that's like one of the biggest reasons people walk away and have bitterness towards the church. It's not because of God, it's not because of Jesus, it's because of people disappointing and failing them. And every time I hear that it's like a little knife in my heart because you know, it tells me and I don't mean this, you know hard, but I have to say then that must mean that your faith was in man and not in God. Right? Like if you're getting pushed away from your faith, from what you claim to believe in, which is God, and you walk away and turn your back on God because of what people do and have done and say, then your faith wasn't in the right place, right?

Speaker 1: 33:20

Well, faith to me is an individual thing, it's a one-key holder thing. My faith is my faith. And if your faith gets strengthened by going and sitting in church for two hours every Sunday and you're getting something from the message and it's changing your life for the better, god, by all means go, but don't think that it's the end. All to be all, be prepared, be guarded, you know, be wise when you listen to the word. You know, pat, like I say, he was doing some great things and they all proved out. They were above board. They were very legitimate, legal, ethical, you know. And then politics came to that change and then he was doing these things that were unethical and you had to weigh it against. What's the truth here? Is what he's doing legal? Is he obeying the law? Is it spiritual, is it scriptural? And if not, you need to reassess your thing. Maybe go find another church. Don't sit there and just blindly go along. You know who's doing good through that.

Speaker 1: 34:26

That's one of the criticisms, I'll probably offend a bunch of people. So just line up. When you come to get me the Catholic Church, you have to confess your sins to a third party, to God. Where is that coming from, right, you know? And then you look at some of the people that are receiving the confession. Catholic Church doesn't have a real stellar reputation, so it's like I don't think this is God's here.

Speaker 1: 34:56

I talk to him every morning in the shower because I got water pouring down on me. I'm cushioned from the outside. I can't pouring down on me, I'm pushing from the outside. I can't hear anything and I'm just crying. I'm telling him thank you for a wonderful life. Could you give me some more favor this week? You know, whatever it is, it's just speaking from my heart. Not to be long, don't have to be on my knees, you know. But that's the message I'm trying to get to people is, if pat robertson, who built a mega ministry, is ministered to people all over the world through the 700th of TV show, changed lives. I mean, my ex-wife used to do testimonials. I see these changes in people's lives. If he can do that and then he can go off straight, off course, who's to say your pastor can't Right, just be smart. You don't need to do anything overt. Hey, this guy wrote a book about pat robertson. You're trying to tell me the same things he did, so I'm leaving your turn. Come on. Yeah, we're not that rudimentary.

Speaker 2: 35:53

Just be wise and in your, in your mind, in your experience with pat robertson and and just that whole world, seeing it from the other side, seeing it from the inside, really, with specific regard to Pat Robertson, can you look at his life, his contributions and say does one cancel out the other, or can the two exist in the same space, all of the good and all of the bad, or does the bad cancel the good?

Speaker 2: 36:30

How do you reconcile it in your mind? I think that's probably a really hard thing for people to do. I have a personal secondhand, I guess experience with a pastor or church. It was like the first one that I kind of vicariously started my true faith journey on and there ended up being, you know, drama. Of course that's always the thing that happens, right, that pushes you away, right, that pushes you away. And for me personally, I'm able to look at those sermons and or remember those sermons and the lessons that I learned from them and still get that same joy, because it was the message, not the messenger, I guess, in a way. So I'm wondering if you're able to do that with him, or is it just too much?

Speaker 1: 37:25

So I'm wondering if you're able to do that with him, or is it just too much? Wow, that's a mind-nod right there. No, he really is. I'm spinning around, he is. I love Pat as a human being.

Speaker 1: 37:37

I saw a great many humanitarian efforts by him, personal humanitarian efforts. I watched him. We had a four producer at the 700 Club lost her husband in a rock climbing accident and Pat ended up buying her a house and take care of her. She worked for him for years. Just a benevolent thing, no fanfare, no press release, no, nothing. You know He'd do a lot of those things. But then he'd also go to the other extreme too, and he was a very complex man.

Speaker 1: 38:14

I don't think I'm in any position to really judge whether his net worth is good or bad. He did what he did. I know the motives behind it were to take care of his ministry. He wanted to find a revenue stream that would last longer than he would and give it a hook. There are studies out that show that personality-driven ministries once the personality leaves the ministries, tend to implode. It's hard to find another Pat Robertson to fill in. So I think Pat showed his human side much more in his later years because he was trying to take care of his baby, his ministry, which was where he got his start, that's his birthright. He was trying to salvage that. I think he realized he made some mistakes going into politics. He saw the dark side of it, but I think he just flat out ran out of time.

Speaker 1: 39:15

Pat tended to draw counsel from those he shouldn't have gotten counsel from. If you and maybe I can end with this, one day we were walking along and he said he told me he'd always tell me. He said I just made so-and-so a vice president or whatever you know. And I stopped. I said you know what, pat? I said Charles Manson could drive up in a Mercedes Benz, get out wearing a $1,000 suit and sport in a Rolex and you'd make him a vice president at CBN. That's how bad your discernment is. He went I'm not that bad, am I? I said oh yeah, you are. I said you've got some real clowns working for you and we just kind of went on his merry way.

Speaker 1: 40:00

He tended to choose people that look good in the role, but pat was a controller. He wanted control everything and he put people in positions that were disposable. In case things planned didn't work out. He would fire that guy and get another guy in. People that ended up at Regent University. I used to joke that their office chair was over a trap door. I mean he'd tell them to do something that didn't work out. Oh, you're out, let's get another prank.

Speaker 1: 40:30

So he didn't take accountability for his failures. He took accountability for the successes, but he strictly just ran out of time. He was trying to take care of his baby the ministry. I don't blame him, I don't hate him. I just think people don't even know the truth. And you know, that's what I put in the book and Jim Spall helped me write some of it. He was with Pat before I was. Tim gave me my job. We sometimes get together. We see him every Christmas down in Ocalaala. We sit there, we talk in pat robertson voices to each other because he'd get really high. Brother, what are you doing? You know that kind of a thing. You know our wives sit there and go. You guys are just. But. But he was a dynamic guy, but he just made some bad decisions and he didn't listen to the father, his father. He listened to his lackeys and get him right in the keystone.

Speaker 2: 41:24

There's really so much, you know, underlying valuable message throughout this whole story, throughout your whole book. Really, you know the false idols, the, you know having that discernment and going directly to God instead of you know middlemen all the time, which we all tend to do. And then it is natural, you know human nature right to start putting people on pedestals and all of that. And you know, and I think it's really valuable for any Christian, you know, new or seasoned, whatever you want to call it, to remember those things and you know so it's kind of. Also, you know we called it a memoir, we called it an expose, we called the book, all these things, but it's really a lot of reminders to use discernment and to just not put people on those pedestals and just be truth seekers. Really, you know and accept that, even when the truth isn't pretty and it isn't what we want to hear.

Speaker 2: 42:27

You know, I think we as people have a tendency to not want to hear things that don't align with what we want to think, right, you know that's rampant in our culture. You know, if it doesn't sound pretty, if it doesn't align with what I think, right, you know that's rampant in our culture. You know, if it doesn't sound pretty, if it doesn't align with what I think, then it can't be true or that person must be a bad person. And you know, the truth really is that there's a lot of gray areas and I really love how you kind of close that out with acknowledging the good and the bad, the truth and the myth and all of the things that go with it. And I just think it's really really fair to be honest with you and anyone who's watching and you know is coming into this defensively. You know, in that must protect the legacy of Pat Robertson.

Speaker 2: 43:12

This is, it's fair, it's fair and it's honest and you know, and a personal account of your experience through that. I would be very remiss if I don't mention this. This is not your only book out on that. We're going to put up the cover here. You also wrote this book about Ralph Reed and the Christian Coalition, so I want everyone I'm going to Well, I guess this means I'm just going to have to have you come back on again so we could talk specifically about that one. Don't throw me into the briar patch.

Speaker 1: 43:40

Don't throw me into the briar patch. Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah, well, the tie-in just quickly is one of the things Pat did back when I was there, when I just had come on. He formed the Christian Coalition and for those of you who are old enough to remember, they were a political juggernaut In fact they, when they imploded, pat kind of took the, the skeletal machine and converted it into his political action committee for Americans, for Robert. When he put this guy, ralph Reed, in charge of the Christian coalition and I was there watching Ralph Reed I told my wife at the time.

Speaker 1: 44:17

I said, yeah, I met this guy, ralph Reed. I said I was with him for like five minutes today and I just wanted to go get steamed clean to make sure I had my wallet with me. I mean just a snake oil. Anyway, long story short, ralph Reed should have gone to prison. I mean I got evidence in that book that when I mean in fact his associates, just quickly, the associates that he worked with after he left the Christian Coalition, all went to prison for a time, ralph.

Speaker 1: 44:47

Reed had some secret power brokers in the White House and in politics that got his subpoena lifted and he got to go scot-free and the guy's committed a felony. He's laundered money. I've got all the evidence in his book. So, yeah, I'd really love to talk to you about that and I would love it if Ralph reads to me because I'd love to have discovery and go back and check his tax return. That would make millions off of exploiting.

Speaker 1: 45:16

He was telling people at the Christian Coalition that gambling was a cancer. It was turning wives into widows and children into orphans. People were throwing money at him to go fight gambling. Fast forward, a few years later he's secretly promoting and protecting Indian gambling casinos in Louisiana. He got paid about $3 million for that little clandestine thing, but nobody knew about that. They will when they get the book. Yes, oh, there's, like we said in the beginning, lots of tea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so anyway, but anyway, I get passionate about it because it's just so full of nuggets about who he really is and what he really did. So, anyway, but you've been just wonderful, um, and so welcoming and you know you haven't treated me like I had a dead fish in my pocket like most people do.

Speaker 2: 46:05

No you know, like I told you from the beginning, I'm coming in with, you know, an open heart and no preconceived notions on anything, on anything.

Speaker 2: 46:21

So you know, I'm simply receptive to hearing the different perspectives, the different experiences throughout this.

Speaker 2: 46:24

And you know, and as I've been doing my thing and being open about my Christian journey which, to be perfectly honest, has been amazing and wonderful, and you know I see why people say that there is a lot that comes with it that is not so good. Of course, when you're public about it, you open yourself up to just very negative people saying negative things, and for me that's a great experience because it's all things that show me not only how strong my faith is, but how strong I am just as a human to not be affected and bothered by those things, how strong I am just as a human to not be affected and bothered by those things. And the biggest reason for that is because I know who I belong to and I know whose opinion of me matters the most. So when people on the Internet are saying much like you, receiving the negativity, yeah, you just don't factor into my life. Unless you're, unless you're, the big guy, your opinion just does not help the way that you think it does right.

Speaker 1: 47:22

Well, let me leave you with this partying assessment. I read people pretty good at cop training and bodyguarding. You are very bold in professing that you're a new Christian. Think about a field. You're a fresh field of furrowed ground. There's a lot of ability to get things planted in there. Your faith is strong. It hasn't been bombarded from a bunch of weeds and briars and other things. It's at the most powerful stage right now for you and you need to guard that. Be patient. I want to learn more. I'm going to go seek this guy because he's been a pastor for 30 years. He knows all the answers.

Speaker 2: 48:03

You read me well, by the way. I want to know everything. Five minutes ago.

Speaker 1: 48:08

Sure, yeah, but be patient and digest it. Okay, you go ahead and have a wonderful meal, digest it. If it doesn't suit you, get rid of it. You're well-fertilized, fertile ground, ripe for planting, and the crops will be abundant in the future, but you've got to wait. You've got to wait and seek God. Don't go to man for your critical answers. It's wise to get counsel. It's wise to get counsel. It's wise to get a second, third opinion. I go to my wife all the time. Am I being a dope for doing this? Yeah, you are. Okay, she's wise. Okay, but don't be anxious to be super Christian. Okay, because it's a love affair with you and the creator. And just be patient. It'll come, but just be guarded. That's what I'm trying to tell people. If the power of God is inconsiderable and fall, do you think you can't do Right? Right?

Speaker 2: 49:08

Yeah, it's.

Speaker 2: 49:09

Actually I do find hearing these types of things it is hard, and I think it's hard for any Christian to hear that just wants to be so good in their faith and it knocks you sideways a little bit because exactly that like if what you know, we in our minds have as like the pinnacles of faith and connection with God, if they stumble, you know, and they're so much more Christian than we are, you know.

Speaker 2: 49:35

So, yeah, that's, yes, those are definitely things that come into my mind and I'm sure other Christians' minds too that you know how easy it is to fall, and I probably I guess my thought on that would be that that's actually a really good thing to know because, like you said, it'll keep me on my guard, it'll keep others on their guard as well, you know, guard our hearts and minds in Christ alone. And yeah, and I want to tell you something as well, if I may, one of the first Bible verses that I learned is maybe it's kind of an odd one, but there's a whole little story that goes with it. It's I will summarize it so quickly when I, when I really opened my heart and said I think this is the direction I belong in, but I'm not sure and I asked God, you know, give me a sign. You know that's what we all say. Right, give me a sign, god.

Speaker 2: 50:23

And literally the next day, a postcard came in the mail with 1 Peter 4.10. Each of you should use whatever gifts you have received in order to serve others as faithful stewards of God's grace. And I went, oh, my stewards of God's grace. And I went, oh my. And as we were talking, the very beginning, and you were telling your story of how things just fall into your lap and they just happen, and that was really the first thing that popped into my mind 1 Peter 4.10 for you as well. And just what a blessing that is to use whatever gifts we have received to serve God, you know, and to serve others. So I love it.

Speaker 1: 51:00

The other. One other thing that's just critical is pray without ceasing. But you got to understand sometimes the answer to the prayer is no, it's not silence from God. No, that's not the best for you right now. If you think about all the dominoes that God's got to line up for your prayer to take place, right now might be the time for it to come to fruition. So you've got to be patient. Keep your ear peeled for his voice. And he doesn't speak to you in a klaxon horn. He speaks to you in a still small voice. If you're hearing things like Charlie Brown's teacher, that's not God. Still small voice In the quiet. 2, 3 in the morning, you may wake up, get a little nugget placed in your head. That's the way he operates. He's not necessarily standing up there with all the robes and the vestments. And this was for you. This was for you.

Speaker 1: 51:58

That's theatrics, that's Broadway, that's showbiz. Okay, religion and a relationship with God is very rudimentary. It's a very simple connection and that's what we have to rely on for the truth.

Speaker 2: 52:12

I love that.

Speaker 1: 52:14

And now we're in AI time. We're seeing all these things on there. Is that real Did?

Speaker 2: 52:20

that kid, just levitate over that building. You know what was that? Discernment is getting harder and harder, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 52:25

Be guarded. Be guarded, elsa. You've been a good light.

Speaker 2: 52:29

Thank you, so have you. What a wonderful and what a way we just kind of closed out with church a little bit right there. I can't thank you enough for coming out. Please tell everyone where they can find your books and your website any of the things that they can find you and your work.

Speaker 1: 52:44

Well, the books are both available on Amazon and we're major booksellers. It's called the Protecting Pat Robertson Confessions of the High Christ Bagman. That's a whole nother story. That's in the book and why I refer to myself as a bagman. And then the other book is Trial of the Devil Incarnate, ralph Reed, god's Flim Flam man. They're both available. Now They've been available. You can get them also through my website, bigfatcatbookscom, and I have a site called the Flim Flam Chronicles and it doesn't cost you a thing. Go there.

Speaker 1: 53:21

And I did a series of about eight to 10 minute narratives about Pat Robertson and about Ralph Reed. If you want a shot, go to the Flim Flam Chronicles and check out the Ralph Reed narratives and you're going to think I'm either the biggest liar on the planet or he's the biggest duplicitous person on the planet. In fact, the um, oh, gosh, the honey. Uh, huffington post labeled him as the monumental hypocrite of our time, ralph reed, the former head of the christian coalition. All the answers are there. Uh, check it out. It doesn't cost you a thing. Just go there, just try to get the truth out and you could buy the book. My wife needs a new pair of shoes.

Speaker 2: 54:05

Mama needs a new pair of shoes, wow.

Speaker 1: 54:08

That's a moldy oldie.

Speaker 2: 54:11

Oh, my goodness, David, I almost called you David Reed. I'm so sorry, david Wilcox, thank you so much for coming on the show. Guys, I can't thank you all enough for watching this. Please go check out those books. I will put the links in the show notes for all of us and we will see you next time. Take care, guys.