Ep 218 - Bears Centurian Jake Heenan joins the pod plus some Bristol rugby-related bits and pieces before the annual Six Nations hibernation

The main event is the Jake Heenan interview where we chat to him about his rugby career which of course included seven years and over 100 appearances for Bristol Bears. We also discuss his relationship with Pat from his time as a youngster in the Auckland Blues Academy through to the title winning Connacht side of 2016 and finally his successful stint in Bristol. He provides great insight into the ups and downs of a pro rugby player but also demands recognition for the selfless way that he gave up his contract here in order to free up cap space for Tom Jordan and Louis Rees-Zamitt!

Joking aside it was a very interesting 30 mins or so which we hope that listeners will enjoy.

Prior to that we also discuss the recent Prem Cup games, the emergence of Bears players in England A and (and senior) squads (up the Klosk!) and reaffirm our belief that it was us who started the famous 'Gengey's coming home chant'.

All that and more with Pete, Lee and Miles and a few cheeky beers provided by the Bristol Beer Factory Taproom via the ever generous Lewis.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

You're listening to Bears Beyond the Gate, Bristol Bears podcast made by fans for fun. With three friends who love the club, the game, and all things bears. This week we have a Prem on Hold special for you: an interview with Bristol Bears centurion Jake Heenan. We chatted to him on Thursday actually about his rugby career, his time at the Bears, and what insights he could give us about being an elite professional sportsman. As you might imagine, it was very interesting half an hour or so. But before that, we'll do a quick review of the last couple of Prem Cup games and then tie up a few bits and pieces that have arisen this week. I'm Pete and I'm joined by Lee and Miles for a cheeky beer and a bit of rugby banter in the Bristol Beer Factory Tap Room Studio Bar. Well, lads. Oh, we're joined by a Belgian blonde as well tonight, aren't we, Pete? Well, you know what? I thought I'd go plan C. I'd go plan C and I was Lewis when we got here, just before seven, as we always do, Lewis said, What do you want? And he said, It's only uh only cast. No, it's only it was only Kegan, wasn't it? And I looked, and it was and I just thought, I can't remember what it's called actually. I don't know what it's called, but it was a Belgian blonde. And I thought, it's a long time since I've had a Belgian blonde. Very long time. So um It's probably gonna be a long time before you get it. Is that now? In fact, let's be honest, I don't think I've ever had a Belgian blonde.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

She's quite a strong one as well for the shooter season. 5.9.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

She's a front rower, I'd say. I gotta say, I I've always never been that keen on Belgian beers, but it's slipping down absolute beauty. But what about you, Mars?

SPEAKER_04 1:41

You've got a bit of a I think this is a an advertising space for something new that is uh I mean obviously we had a keg of uh but black gates nitro style, and uh and then we noticed in the fridge that black gates is now available in the can. However, without a little widget and any nitrogen, um it's alright. It pours well. Well, for me, I'm terrible at pouring beer, but it's alright. It tastes very nice. It's still mallar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:05

And yourself, Lee? I'm on a well, I did have a black gates. Uh I'm now on uh the espresso martini, which is, I have to admit, one of my favourites. And Lewis did say that it's it's gonna this is it. This is the last lot of cans. Last batch. The last batch of cans until next year, so uh I'll try and drink as many of them as I can. Good lads.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Yeah, and if I was if there's anyone else out there who likes espresso martini, I'd get down here quick before Lee gets them all. Anyway, so as I said, it's this very difficult time of year when Prem games are finished. Yeah, yeah. Uh Six Nations are on the agenda, and obviously yesterday um they started, and uh there's a few Prem Cup games here and here and there, and we've we've had this problem in the past, and and in the past we've we've tried to do something a little bit different, maybe fill fill the pot space a bit with some interviews and a couple of docu pods we've done. So, in with that in mind, uh we got in touch with Jake Heenan, and he was very happy to do a chat with us on that basis. And we actually did a chat with him on Thursday, didn't we, boys, on Zoom? Yeah, um, and Jake uh gave us sort of half an hour of his time. We had a really good chat with him. We we tried to sort of cover as many things as we could. So we're gonna listen to that a little bit later on in the pod, and then maybe we'll have a quick chat afterwards, very briefly, about you know what we thought about what he said and stuff like that. But I think before that we we could do a little bit of a round up of of what's been going on at the club because it has been a little bit busy. There's been a few things, bears-related issues going on. So the first thing was the Prem Cup. Now, let's just do the stats. We are bottom of the first table. Giving you the league. We have one win. I think we can safely say that given that it's top two from each group go to the semis, I don't think that's going to happen for us. Uh, just to for those people that may don't know, last weekend, and they were both home games actually. So we've had two home games.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

Fortress Ashton Gate, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Yeah, Fortress Ashton Gate. Not much of a fortress, unfortunately. But we lost 16-8 or 8-16 to Gloucester last weekend, and it was a pretty wet wet game. And I'm gonna ask Miles about it in a minute because he had very clear views on that game, um, even though he spent most of the time just chatting all the way through to the person sat next to him, which was Alice, by the way, if she's listening. But then on Saturday I went down on my own, um, just because I had a free afternoon, didn't have anything else to do, and I he's on my season ticket, so I thought I'd do it. And actually, it was a much more entertaining game, but we still lost uh 35-46 to Chiefs. Um, but I could perhaps give you a bit of a few things about that. But as I said, the reality of the situation is there are two more games to go. There's one away at Bath and there's one home at sale, and I think you know we're very much gonna have to look at those as fill-in-time games or scouting games because obviously the Prem Cup is all about you know players coming back from injury or or academy boys, and it is good for us to see what's coming because we need that academy, as we've always good, we do. So, first things first, Miles, let's very briefly talk about last Saturday, Sunday's game. Um we have to, yes. Yeah, well, you were very, very scathing about the game, and I think we have to caveat this by recognising that the players do put a massive amount of effort in, and it was horrible, and they were smashing each other up, and there's Miles sat there going, Oh, this is all rubbish like that. And I just think, boy, I wouldn't I bet you wouldn't say that to their face if they were there. But anyway, Miles, qualify your statement a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

Right, the weather was atrocious again, it wasn't on sort of the biblical reign of extra cheese scale the weekend before. But however, um yeah, you're great. There was a lot of academy guys in. There were some fringe first team players in for Bristol Bears and also for Gloucester as well, to be fair.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

They had some and some I wouldn't call Dunny or Gabsivatoy fringe, though.

SPEAKER_04 5:58

No fringe, but okay. They're not fringe.

SPEAKER_05 6:04

Don't stir it up, especially especially with Dunny. Come on there, Miles, carry on, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 6:08

So, you know, it's been great to see some Academy boys. You're right, it was useful for a lot of the guys that come back from injury to get some game time, which is absolutely essential. Um, but yeah, Gloucester bought a little bit of a better game plan. They played the weather a lot better, the high ball are better, and I even think their the scummaging was well. There were some slightly odd decisions. And I think my mild criticism on the day was there was a bit of a lack of leadership on the Bristol camp.

SPEAKER_05 6:32

Um we should say, wasn't Louatua due to playing got injured. No last minute. Yeah, and I think especially in the case of Lua Tua, there's your there's your go-to leader. Yeah. So that probably defaults your go-to go.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Yes. It defaulted to Harry Thacker, and you know, and I think um I pat on the back for Gloucester, their scrum was just a little bit tighter than ours, and a bit more grunt, and they were pushing us back, and we and it delivered us some fortunately some penalties against us. So, yeah, the the game was good, but the late scrolling said it was rubbish. Well as if we were reversing. But disappointing result, the boys put their your bodies on the line, as they always do, but just you know, slightly wrong, wrong side of the ref in quite a lot of penalty decisions.

SPEAKER_03 7:19

My only comment on it was um that it was Harry Thacker's 150th appearance. And it was a little bit of a shame that it was the conditions didn't make it much of a game. There was a lot of kick-in, and it wasn't he did, you know, he he did try his best to do Thacker things, and I I felt a bit sorry for him that he just picked a uh a day for his 150th that was just not conducive to to rugby.

SPEAKER_05 7:43

But anyway, it was am I just a totally unrelated rugby uh thing to say? But that weather, I actually loved it because I was in Launston in a cottage on a farm, and do you know what? It was the loveliest cottage, and that rain was hammering down, and I had a lot of.

SPEAKER_04 8:02

So you didn't need to leave the cottage.

SPEAKER_05 8:04

It was perfect. I went to a farm shop, Strawberry Fields farm shop. Beautiful, beautiful products, and I had a load of beer in, and do you know what? I was settled. I loved it.

SPEAKER_04 8:13

So Pete and I weathered the storm, and you rightly so stayed out of the storm. Absolutely. Yeah, well, you obviously had a better weekend than we did.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

But yesterday's game, as I said, Chiefs, slightly better weather, uh, more scores, more, more tries. Yeah, like it. And and uh this time I moved down to the lower Lansdown just because there were spare seats and it's got better leg room. But of course, I've said this before that when you go from sort of mid-Dolman 28 rows up and go down to like four rows back of the Lansdown in the corner, it's like watching a totally different game. You basically don't see half the game. So I it was quite hard. The legs are a bit tired, yeah. You fancied less walking, did you actually? It was quite hard, but but my comment on the game was, and I think if anyone wants to really know what an analysis of the game, like maybe read the Bristol Post write up. But we were a bit slow out of the blocks. Dunny was playing, Joe Owen was playing. We had quite good pack. We had George Taylor at seven, Ben Grandona at eight, Dunny and Steele Barker, which I was trying to I I know we're not very good at doing our research. I was trying to remember what Dunny what his nickname was and what his real name was as well. Because remember, Dunny told us ages ago, and I just didn't have time to go back, so I should have done a bit of AI searching on that. Anyway, maybe maybe Joycey could find out for us, because he's on he's our he's our fat checker. Yeah. But anyway, joking aside, it felt and of course the trouble is with these Prem games when you've got a mix of fringe fringe players, as Miles would say, i.e., blokes that are in the first team squad, but quite a long way from the 23, and and first team regulars when they're fit, like Gab Zibatoi and Dunny has been in the past. Um, it's a bit ha it's a bit disjointed because they don't play together, do they? I mean they may play in training, but you know, so I think we've always got to be a bit wary of expecting too much. And and I felt as though um that they did get a bit they started slowly, and I think for whatever reason, Exeter a bit more cohesive, scored two quick tries. It's a good place, didn't he? They had a big lumpy, big gnarly pack out, and I think we luckily scored just before half time. Joe Owen, from where I was sitting, looked like he's he ran from the halfway line, and he was I was literally kind of behind him, so I couldn't really see what he did, but he appeared to um and I think Dunny did a little interview afterwards on uh BBC Radio Bristol and and said he called him the gazelle. The gazelle, he said that he said the gazelle ran in from 50 yards, so it was it, it looked like a great try. So you're really good for Joe Owen. And then second half, they came out with a bit more purpose, and we did all speculate where we were sitting that they might have had a bit of a rocket. And Dunny confirmed that in his interview that they he said they had hard words with each other in the changing room. And I think they were like they just and they they did come out a lot more.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

Well, they were what, 20 22 7 down at half time. And they would have to be.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

I think they got back into within seven, and Lena scored a try um af in the second half, and um uh Max Pepper scored a try, was uh scrum half, and then right at the end, Sam Worsley scored right at the end.

SPEAKER_05 11:15

Um you did say Pete as well before we started recording. Dunny had harsh words with uh with one of the Exeter players on the pitch as well, didn't he?

SPEAKER_03 11:23

I know, I mean he did. There was a there was one of those what we always love in rugby when there's a there's an altercation going on randomly and the the play is like somewhere else on the pitch, and yeah, I mean I would say that Dunny started wearing his red cap again. So that's why it's quite good, you know. It's it and I think I did suggest to him that he should get that red cap back on because you know you you you can see it, so I could clearly see it was Dunny on the ground, like pummelling into some Exeter guy. I don't know what it was about.

SPEAKER_04 11:50

But the funny thing was you could disguise the blood of your opponent on your head.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Well, what I what I loved about it was that they were going hammering tongs, and a few other people got involved, and then they both realised that the game was going on, and they realised that they had to stop because they had to go and support, and they literally just got up and sort of almost shook hands and carried off.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

Yeah, but I mean that's what they did, and they got I mean, what I love about that is the passion, you know. Dunny's still got the passion. He's we know he's playing for Quinn's next season, but it doesn't mean anything, does it? He's still got the passion for Bristol.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

And this is the thing, is because these games are a bit about Academy lads having a run out, it's also about Gabs getting game time, Dunny getting game time. Because we are we know we're gonna need them in the run-in because we're still out despite doing so well to be third in the Prem, we still have a small squad. That squad hasn't got away. Yeah, and we need Dun Dunny, you know, you know, he yeah, at the moment, you know, your first choice locks a Pedro and Bats, but you know, we we've got Joe and we need other we need Dunny fit because he is a premiership operator. We need everyone, and uh we need Gabsy Batoy fit, we need Rich Lane, Jimmy Williams played on Saturday as well, so sort of ticking him over as well. Um so yeah, I just think it these games are important, even though they're not that really they're meaningless. And I I think it'd be interesting that those Bath and the Sale game might be interesting to see the sale one particularly, who who are they gonna sort of try and tick over for the restart? Because obviously the first Prem game won't be till the sec 22nd of March. So I do think these games have value, and it's quite nice.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

I've said this before, it was quite nice down the gate, it wasn't too many cues.

SPEAKER_05 13:23

But do you know what? You make a really good point, actually. I think Ashton Gates, one of those grounds, and I I don't think you get it very often, but you can have a completely different view of one the same game from different stands. Yeah. I mean I've I've sat in all the stands. I mean, I remember the old Williams stand before it was called the Land Stain. And um and it's such a different perspective, it's really weird.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

I mean We won this one in the South Stand, didn't we, until that bloke spilled Pine Residence on a Friday night. That was Gloucester on a Friday night. That was a Prem Cup. It was, yeah, it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:59

That's why I never go to them anymore.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

I mean, that was a long time ago, wasn't it? And that was a dire game as well. Yeah although clarifying that the players put every effort in because we and and we wouldn't be able to do anything like that. Yeah. So yeah, you're right though, it's it is quite nice. It's almost like moving around the ground. I'm not suggesting we're gonna go to the Attio just for the experience. I just wonder whether the Attio might could be uh something we should do at the bath game.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

It was alright.

SPEAKER_05 14:29

I'm actually going to watch the England Well Six Nation women's from the Attio. Are you from the Attio?

SPEAKER_04 14:34

I don't know, I've no idea where I've got seats. Well let I'll let you know on the day. Well, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

So I mean, yeah, so what we're trying to say is I mean, I do wonder what players think when they're playing those Premier Cup games. Like how, you know, it's in all seriousness, it must be quite difficult because they to get to stay motivated, but then I guess rugby's that sort of game where you've got to be all in, or there's no point being on. And I think you know, they did they did try right to the end. The fact that you know we scored, we got back within seven, then they scored again, and then we got back right at the end. And Sam Worsley. I just think every time I see Sam Worsley, he just looks a bit harder, a bit more rugged. He's got his beard, but he's he got himself a try at the end as well. Yeah, he looks he's looking the business, and we may we need him if we don't know whether Adge will be fit for the end of the season. You have to suppose not. No, so we so we needed him to be.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

And also we know that Tom Jordan's kicked all the you know kicked out.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Yeah, he was kicked kick percentage was great. And you know, Tom Jordan's away with Scotland, and you know, we hope fingers crossed that something nothing untoward happens to him. Although, thankfully, and just on the side, he looked like he came through that horrendous um mud bath in Rome, all right, even though mentally I don't think the Scots got through that very well. But anyway, we're not uh we're not talking about it.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

I think they were already in it. Yeah, they were wrong with it as well.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

I know they were it was uh anyway, so I think anything else to say about those Promo Cup games?

SPEAKER_05 16:03

No, I think we've summed it up quite nicely, in all fairness.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

I think so. Well, a couple of other things to to talk about. I mentioned him already, but um Gabs re-signing. Um that's a good news, isn't it? Very, very, very good news. And I think and I think you know, now that this is another it's not just about signing new players, it's about keeping the quality that we've got. Clearly, Pat rates him. And one of the things we learnt from Jake, which we might talk about later, is that if you're not really with Pat, you generally don't get off in a contract. So clearly, Gabs is bought into the whole system. Two years? We never know, do we? Two plus one, I don't know. It's gotta be, hasn't it? Yeah, he's got company. It's got to be got to be at least two years. I mean, if you give I don't think you can give anyone a one-year contract, because if you do, you've got to start negotiating again, haven't you? And Pat's a busy man.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

I mean when they say long-term contract, I think you're right. It's a couple of years, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 16:57

I think I mean I thought three. I mean, the only person in rugby to get more than the three-year contract is Pat, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:02

And he's the boss. Yeah, so he negotiated his own deal. Yeah. So uh so I think that's a great, I mean, you know, he's he's he's been injured since sort of game one, and we've been lucky enough to have some great wingers. But I think you're right, we we need all these people fit going into the run-in, and to have the sort of quality and the pizzazz that that Gabs can bring. You're right, he he needs good players around it, doesn't he? Yeah, uh exceptional centres to sort of give him that space, and I think that he's brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 17:32

Also, what I love about Gabs is that he creates chaos because he just does his own thing. He's we talked about many a time on the pod, he has the the kind of license to roam almost. He's the he's the 007, yeah, and he he and he just creates chaos, and what he does, he puts opposition players out of position. Yeah, so absolutely brilliant sign-in for us.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

Absolutely, and and when we are on playing front foot rugby, and there's no one more you know, as you say, sort of no one more front football. No more front foot. Well, quite side foot sometimes as well. But yeah, so I think that's good news. Good news. Um England A, there was uh there was four four bears in the England A. Harry Harry Randall started and got man of the match, scored. Uh George Klosker started, scored, scored, Joe Batley started, did he score? Don't think he did. There was a great look. I think I re- I I did something on Instagram where there was George Klosker's try, it was it was a line out on the other line. Bats took took the took the took the ball cleanly.

SPEAKER_06 18:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Um Harry took it quick, little dummy in a snipe, got some yardage. Then there was a couple of phases. Klosker went in, resource a rut, came back out again, hit the ball at pace, and showed some real power to go over it. It was a proper bears try, that was. That was great. Bats to Rans to Glosker. So and then Fitz came on second half. I think they're poor old Fitz. I mean, we love him, but then you know, we think he's done brilliantly to get this recognition, and and maybe who knows where it will go, but then he ends up like you know, Ethan Roots, who has he's been played really well, gets captaincy, and he's like the one the position that Fitz will go. But fair play to Roots, he's a good player.

SPEAKER_05 19:20

Fitz is going to keep knocking on the door, and we've got full absolute confidence in if he just keeps doing what he's doing, recognition first, and then let's see where it goes.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

The biggest mystery though was Gabriel Ogre, isn't it? Yeah. Oh we don't really know what's going on with that. We just I mean we thought perhaps he might be kind of a shadow like on standby for the main squad, is the sort of rather than bring somebody from the A's that he will be the next cab on the rank if Jamie George gets injured when Luke Cowandickey does. Retiring, isn't he? Because Theo Dan was the third, wasn't it? And I just wonder whether he's uh he's been told to kind of just keep ticking over because but it is it's hard to understand why he wouldn't be in either of those two squads. I mean it's madness. It is it does seem like madness. Actually, on that note, I've just remembered something. I because there's been a lot of chat about Ink Bears not getting picked for England and and a lot of speculation on you know from some people that that Steve Borfwick's got um a grudge, of course, yeah. Because great, he should be on the stage. It's like listening to Rory Bremner, it's Miles Bremner has arrived. But just the interesting thing that is quite a big narrative because of that, because of a foe again. Steve Borfwick's got the hump with Pat and Don't Speak. Now, I I I took the opportunity to ask a good friend of the pod, Dave Atwood, what he thought because I thought at the end of the day he was there at that match, and I asked him, I said, look, because they were discussing it on the scrum, and and I got on touch with him afterwards and said, Look, there is this narrative amongst Bears fans that Borfwick will not pick Bristol players because he's got the humm with the club. And I said, I just find that really hard to believe that he's a pro, you know, he'll do what he's got to do for England, and I just can't believe it. Anyway, Dave Ackford confirmed that he doesn't think Steve Borfick has got any particular gripe with Bristol, as per se, because he actually asked him. So there's some proper evidence for you. But he did say that he wasn't 100% sure why, but he just wondered that it's so competitive. And the thing about forwards, like I was saying, like, how could Batley not get in? Or or even Fitz? He says that they just have to make a call on grunt more than anything, uh, in terms of their their size and power with international scrums and gain line and winning the gain line. And he just said it's such fine margins that they're probably in Steve's mind, he's picked a couple of other people who've done before them and and and they're just in there. And I and I think I kind of believe that, and my my evidence to back that up is that we are getting some England A recognition, so it's kind of like it's not the bears aren't in the conversation. So that's my thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:00

And we should say as well. I mean England have what won twelve games on a spin now. So you can't really argue with the basis that Borthwick's picking a winning team. And you know, uh no coach would drop players that have won twelve games consecutively. So we just we just got to keep an eye on the job.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

I think we are knocking on the door. So I think that people saying, oh, he'll never pick Bristol players, it's like, well, he will have an oversight of the England A squads. And like George Klosker potentially could have got in that wider one. And actually, on that note, Max Laheath got caught. But I I saw the interview with um John Barnes, the Academy, and he said that when um whoever it was, the BAF young lads got injured, they couldn't, they might well have pulled in an England A, but they'd already gone to Ireland to liberate it. I mean, this is the other thing about the Pat and Steve thing. John Barnes was quoted saying Steve gave Pat a ring to see if Max was available.

SPEAKER_05 23:05

And Max.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

So I think it's like anything in life, it's a lot more complex situation. It is, but maybe you know, Steve Bulfett has a certain way of playing, and maybe he just thinks that, you know, probably in seasons past that our pack hasn't been that kind of gnarly thing. But actually, he may review that at the end of this season and look at our season and say our pack has been one of the biggest and strongest.

SPEAKER_04 23:35

Yeah, I mean, I get that. I mean, you're right. I mean, you're looking, you know, some of the bulk in that England pack yesterday. It's hard to argue that what you've just said. I mean, you know, Fitz, they're just very slim, very dominant players. But, you know, you've got a Tom Curry, for example, he's got a little bit more than that. And he's been there and done it. Caesar.

SPEAKER_05 23:53

And he's a you know, we should say, in Tom Curry's case, he's got a bit of nastiness.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

A little bit of an edge that I know, blessed or fit hasn't quite gone.

SPEAKER_04 24:04

Yeah, he's yeah, yeah. But I always take that.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

He's a Premier Captain with a hundred appearance.

SPEAKER_05 24:10

So that has to count for something. I'm gonna throw another name in the app in a couple of years as well, Joe Owen. Joe Owen will be in the English.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

I think it's all right. I think I think George Klotker as well. I think I think if he I think we're I think we're looking good, and I think we just have to just wait and see. I mean, and Harry Randall was man of the match. I mean, Harry Randall was picked ahead of Raffi Quirk, wasn't he, on Friday? He's got man of the match and scored. So it's good at competition as well. It's good. That's all we can do. Man of the match and score. So anyway, the only other thing I wanted to mention, I don't know if you boys saw that um promo with Genji and Sean and Beanie, Sean Marsden. Uh it was on Twitter, it was like uh in an old red. Oh, it was a little promo thing where they were sort of drinking, it was a Thatcher's side of thing, but they were talking about grassroots rugby and talking, like chatting with each other at the bar about their their kind of journeys from grassroots rugby to to Bristol players and so forth, and then obviously Sean as coach and how and they they go back you know a long way. And it was actually a really good accordingly. I I know I mean I know that that was filmed quite a long time ago. It was actually filmed way before Christmas, and they when he just put it out. But apparently, according to my sources, it was like all day filming for about and like this is TV for you. You do all day filming one we know, you do all day film, you never get on. Anyway, and um anyway, the interesting thing that came out of that is that they were talking about the when Genji talked about coming back and you know he loved grassroots and he wants to come and he loves Bristol supports, and he and he name checked, he goes, Oh, just after it's time for Bristol, we came back when I was close to Leicester, and he goes, Normally it's just Bristol, Bristol, but that was class that on that day everyone started singing he's coming, oh he's coming out. And I was thinking, we just started it like I'm sure it's like the safest stand on state, but we definitely talked about it on the pop that we definitely started in the dolmen.

SPEAKER_05 26:08

Well, I can actually say I know full well Tony Cox got up and we started singing it, and we we started that in the dolman, and no one safe stand is claiming that no more.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

But you know what? I loved that though. What I loved about it was Genji's recognised that. Yeah, because I think it's the first time I've ever heard recognition, yeah. And actually, and he was saying it's kind of he was talking about this whole chant thing, which is an ongoing debate. And he said that, but but what and Dunny mentioned this when we interviewed him before, that maybe the route is like individual players chants, you know. Like we've always said about ooh, yeah, Steven Red. That could work. Yeah. And we were gonna have oaster done, okay done. But I don't know. I don't know, it's an ongoing debate, and there'll be people shaking their heads to done. Like oh, oaster down, like changes, and it's changed down, isn't it? It's changed the band, and it's changed.

SPEAKER_05 27:12

Well, maybe that's what we've got to do.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Individual, I think all Yankee Van Rensburg is a good start. It's a classic. And I mean, it's difficult, but Cluster, I think. You've got to pick a copy one for Klosker. Yeah, Joe in the sort of gazelle type uh type thing. We've got O in me O in you like it. Just off top of it. What happens when you have two points of express over the TV and a thunder like creative juices? Go over for over. Anyway, I think, boys, on that note, we should uh we should introduce the main point of the pod. We've managed to speak for 25 minutes, which I was hoping it might be a bit shorter. But the the hot most main reason for this pod was to present the interview with Jake Heatan. So without further ado, I think we should listen to what Jake said. So I thought I'd start with a fairly general question and say, you know, I wonder if you could sort of talk us through your your whole rugby journey, really, from the Auckland Blues Academy via Connuct, hundred appearances for Bristol, and obviously uh a very successful local businessman.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Yeah, so I I grew up in uh a small city in the far north of New Zealand, Fangale. Um, like a lot of young New Zealanders wanted to play professional rugby. Um, you know, was sort of managed to find a backdoor into an academy. I was actually told by the academy that I should focus on my studies and and probably shouldn't pursue rugby as a as a career. It wouldn't um, you know, it mightn't pan out for me. Uh was was fortunate enough to to sort of stick at it and um played a a bit of schoolboy rugby, made New Zealand schoolboys, went down to Auckland, that's um where I first met Pat Um when he was coaching the Blues. Um couple years in their academy, played uh New Zealander 20s, was fortunate enough to captain them to uh what I believe was the first junior World Cup that all that that New Zealand ever lost. Um I was in charge of that. Um came back, played a bit of development rugby, played for some blues development, and uh yeah, then then Pat offered me a contract to go and play an island in Connect, and it was the the surest route for me to get better, I think, at the time. It was full-time, it was um you know, good competition and and good coaching. So took that on, loved it, did five years out there before you know Pat came across to Bristol and um yeah, so I wanted to come along with him and um yeah, I suppose the rest was kind of history then, you know. It was seven years at you know, Bristol's ended up becoming my home and um, you know, probably some of the most enjoyable rugby of my career as well.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

I'll just dive in with one question and then lads, you might want to come in. But I suppose my question would to you would be obviously you you mentioned you you captained uh New Zealand under 20s and you didn't win that final. I think it was South Africa, wasn't it? Um but you know, there's no shame in losing to South Africa these days, is it? Do you have some sort of regret that you you gave up the opportunity to be uh a kind of full all black? Uh, because essentially I guess that was the case by by coming over to the northern hemisphere. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

There is not a single thing I regret in my career, and I'm I'm really, very privileged to be able to say that. Um I I've taken every opportunity I think I've had in front of me. Uh I think I've made the most out of them. I had I had four shoulder reconstructions uh over the course of about two and a half years in Ireland, um which didn't help, but you know, I sort of managed to again still pursue a career after that. And and I feel like I I really put my best foot forward as best I could at every step. And yeah, look, I I I've achieved everything. I I would have liked to maybe have achieved a bit more, but you know, there's nothing more I think I could have done, and and there's no opportunities I would have would have would have rather pursued. And and even you know, like coming over to the northern hemisphere, leaving New Zealand, um yeah, there's there's a lot of good parts of New Zealand, but you know, you miss out on seeing the world, and you know, my my lovely wife is French and family and everything here now as well. So I th I think there's there's a lot around rugby as well.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

But fantastic. Good answer that so lads, Lee, I think you've got your hand up. Off you go.

SPEAKER_05 31:38

Yeah, Jake. I just wanted to say, like, uh, I know like you grew up on a farm, didn't you? Um that's right. And the thing that I like about talking to rugby players as opposed to to footballers is that you're generally more rounded individuals, yeah. And I know you were part of a setup for troubled youths in Galway. And can you just tell us a little bit like uh about that? Because as a as a former troubled youth myself, I I kind of like the ins and outs of of what you know what you've done in that situation to help people.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, well, again, I I wasn't too dissimilar, you know, like I sort of got myself in a bit of trouble growing up. And where I was really fortunate is rugby was kind of my my segue into um you know, my direction and something I could put a lot of energy into. Um to sort of, I suppose, straighten myself out a bit. Um and which like a lot of young people don't know sort of the their direction and what they want to do. And um, you know, I heard a great quote uh just the other day that like all behavior makes sense with enough information, right? So that idea that giving people that come from these really, really diverse backgrounds and something they can they can latch on to and pursue. So it's something I was I was passionate about and um you know had interest in in how I can help. So that's a uh fantastic organization called Doctor Sanoi. Um and that's a um essentially a school for for troubled individuals, for young adults who haven't you know managed to fit into um traditional schooling systems, and it gives them opportunity to sort of earn their tickets and and to gain further qualifications to fit into the workplace. So really interesting. What what I think I've what I found most interesting working with them and um the the director uh Tommy O'Malley's actually a really good friend of mine now. And the there was no sorry, you know, there was no sort of feeling sorry for them. There was no um it wasn't a pity party, it was right. Well, okay, here's an opportunity. Yeah, look, we understand in the same, you know, like very understanding people who who understood the divide the diverse backgrounds and um the different cultures and that at play, but it was right now we have to get on with it, you know what I mean? And this is the situation you're in, and this is what we can do, but you need to come along on that journey. So uh that was a good learning for me. And yeah, look, I look I I played a very small part in what they're doing, but it was um it was really neat uh to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_05 34:13

Jake, did you feel that that was quite self-healing for for for your own past as well?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Um look, not so much because like these were, you know, I like while I say I was in a bit of trouble, I come from a very stable household with, you know, I I was a single parent household, but a very loving family, and I had very, very good people around me. And so I think my my trouble in comparison was very mild. Um whereas these were people with, you know, with a lot of them with real broken homes and um you know, violence, drugs, all that kind of thing. So I I suppose from that sense it was almost almost more of a shit. I you know, I really had it pretty good. It could have been a whole lot worse, you know. So um an appreciation, I guess, for situation a lot of people are in, and um and and also uh my privilege as well.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Just to sort of just just a quick question. You were with Pat and Connocked from what 2013 to 2018, and you know, you successfully won the Pro 12 with them. You then move on to Bristol or got lured over to the West Country in the sort of 2018, and you know, I and I found a program today amazingly, and that sort of first season, there were people playing with you. You probably remember you had Charles Pietel, Siali Pietel, George Smith, Luke Moraghan, Steve Luratuur, Ian Madigan, and John Efoa. Could you quite believe these sort of these players you were playing with?

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, I I mean I think probably earlier like earlier in my career, I would have I my career trajectory was a little bit different in that when I when I first arrived into Conic, I was very determined, you know, very like single-minded determined, and I loved playing. I remember playing against Terry Dussatoire in my first season, that was incredible. Yeah, like these sorts of people. When Craig Clark came over, it was like, this is fantastic. Um, and then as I mentioned, I sort of had those injuries, and um it really forced me to to I suppose reassess my relationship with rugby and and and my mindset. So I suppose by the time I came to Bristol, I was a bit more rounded in my rugby, or my whole life wasn't centered around rugby, it was you know something I love doing and um something I really enjoyed. So um, and I suppose it's a roundabout way of saying that um you know when you meet rugby personalities, you you kind of get to enjoy the person and the professional, and um yeah, I don't know. I mean Stephen Louatua, for instance, he was the first person who spoke to me when I moved to Auckland out of school. So, you know, like I'd known Stephen from essentially from from secondary school, you know, where he'd sort of taken me under his wing. And um, you know, I'd captain both Stevie and Charles at under 20 level, you know, the before, you know, the year when they were off um playing for New Zealand the year before me. So um so I knew a few of those guys and um yeah, I don't know, footy characters are kind of footy characters, and and you'd take them all with a pinch of salt and get on with it. But it was certainly enjoyable. And and the the I think probably more impressive, all the guys you mentioned wasn't for me, at least reflecting on a rugby career, it wasn't them as as footy players, it was them as people, you know, like they're all awesome people and they're all my really good mates, and and I suppose that's almost you know, looking back, that's almost what I reflect on more, you know.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, as I said, that they're all hopefully, you know, very great and inclusive characters, which sounded like they all are.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Yeah, also, and obviously, you know, Stevie and and Charles knowing them. I mean, I'd John R Fall was coaching counties and I was back playing for Northern and caught up with him. Uh, you know, we spent a week in Australia with Luke Moraghan on the Gold Coast on our way back over. So yeah, really, like, really lucky to to have you know gotten to spend time with those guys.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

So I I've got a question. I've your your relationship with Pat is is like is an interesting angle because obviously us fans and uh you know all the fans, we we kind of speculate about Pat, you know, we talk about Pat as this this guy, but obviously we don't really know him, but obviously don't know him at all. We see him on the TV. You're probably someone that you know knows him better than anybody. And I think you were quoted as saying, you know, he took a chance on you when you were younger, and and he's been a big directing hand in your career. I mean, it would just be interesting to hear from you, from someone, you know, from the the horse's mouth, as it were. I mean, you know, what what is he like to, you know, as a as someone to be coached by and what are the the real sort of qualities that he's got?

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah, so I I suppose first, you know, when you're talking about the lows and and that, like um, I look at at someone like Pat and you couldn't pay me enough money to do what he does. Like, that is, you know, I think that DOR, you know, at that level is um as ruthless. You know, I think professional sport, we all exist on a knife edge to some degree, right? We're all aware of the fact that that our careers have a shelf life and they can end at any time. Um, and he is he is existing right at the pinnacle of that. So um, in terms of Pat, like Pat is, you know, obviously I'm I'm very fortunate. I know Pat uh very well as a person and as a coach. Um like as a person, he's uh a great family man. He always puts his family and his his friends, he's always been very welcoming to us and you know, in their home, and yeah, they've always looked after us on a on a personal level. So that that's obviously a massive part of working with anyone. I've I've been really grateful. As a um as a DOR, I think he is one of the hardest working, most single-minded determined human beings I've ever met in my life. He is like w when I say you couldn't pay me enough to do that job, like he is the perfect fit for a job like that. He is like he's insatiable. Yeah, he will do anything to achieve to achieve the goal and to achieve, you know, and and I think his work ethic probably speaks for that higher than anything. Like he's first man in the building, last man out all the time. I couldn't tell you what time he leaves because I was always gone before him. And you know, he yeah, he drives a really high standard. It was interesting because I I had Pat for my first four years at Connick, and I think that was probably tough as Pat. That was Pat uh post-blues, you know, where he'd really, really been uh really poorly treated. He had I think he had compromised on a lot of standards at the blues over the years, and those were the those were the standards, those were the people that came back and and bit him in the back, you know, and that's I think that he learned a a very strong less uh lesson from that, that you know, what you permit, you promote, and if you allow poor standards, and you're at the top of that, you know, it'll come back and and you're the one who will end up um failing that. So he was very, very strong, yeah, drove a very strong, I suppose, organization team, drove very strong behaviors, uh, particularly early days in conic. So, and that was great. And I was 21, and you know, so it was perfect for me. It was a really, really great sort of direction. And and then anyway, obviously we had those four years and they're really, really intense, you know, like hard meetings, confrontational, we'd train hard, we'd we'd have long days, and then we had you know, Pat left, and and I think it was a bit of a feeling at Conict that they obviously weren't weren't delighted with Pat leaving. And I got the impression they wanted to find someone who wasn't Pat, you know, as a way of saying, Well, you know what, we'll do it with you know, the antithesis of Pat almost, you know. And they brought in Kerry Gakeen, who who I think is a good coach. Um, it didn't work out for him in Conict. I don't think he got it right when he he came to us in Conict. But he was the other way where it was short and he didn't put a lot of, you know, a lot of detail, didn't put a lot of attention to details, and to the point where he didn't like he didn't really learn people's names. He didn't bother to create um that sort of personal relationship, and then he didn't drive standards really hard. Uh I had a couple of injuries that year to the point where I could come in, do some weights and go home. And that was kind of my work day. And it was like I was getting paid really well and and I was working about four hours a day. It was like this has to be the life. I absolutely hated it. It was my least enjoyable season I think I've ever had because it was like, what's the point? You know, like I'm not getting better. Um, you know, I didn't feel that the leadership from the head coach at the top was driving me or driving something to succeed, and it was like this isn't this isn't what I want to do, this isn't why I do this. I do it because I love it and I want to see how good I can be and how far we can go. So I think that was a really big lesson for me then when Pat asked if I wanted to come to Bristol and and you know it was the same. It was like, right, here we are, and this is where we're going, kind of thing. And like when we're done in Connect, it was like fantastic, like this is you know, and yeah, it was it was hard, you know. We had we're up in at Clifton and um, you know, we're mauling uphill and an ankle deep mud and all those kind of things, you know, which are fun and roughie, but that kind of galvanized us and really defined our identity as a team. So I I think that's a a long-winded way of saying that uh he drives very high standards, he doesn't accept uh B players in his team. You know, if you're someone who doesn't take accountability and and doesn't want to do the work and do the job, then you won't last very long under Pat Lamb. And that's something I really appreciated because I felt that I was someone who, you know, like all the names you've mentioned today, um, who wanted to achieve things and those are the people you want to be around.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

Nice, that's uh that's that's really interesting. I don't know, lads, if you've got another. I just got one follow up from that. Is um we always sort of saw you as the guy that was the kind of the go we used to call you the go to man for you know for Pat when there was kind of you were there, you know, as a as a sort of constant would come in. Sometimes you're in the team, you're captained a few times. Times as well. Did you was that a role that you kind of accepted and you were really happy with? Or were there times where you, you know, you said to yourself, I want to be that number eight, or I want to be the uh the the open side flanker? I'm just sort of interested in in how you kind of kept yourself going really for for all those seven years.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Yeah, it's uh it was an interesting. So I think like reflecting back on it now, and this is it's interesting because it was never something I allowed myself to reflect on during my career, but you know, having those four shoulder surgeries, like I I was never the same athlete and I could never prepare the same. So I sort of struggled to keep weight up, I struggled to perform physically during a week, and and often I would, you know, if I was playing rugby, I would just be trying to get through seven days, you know. So it took it took a lot out of me. So part of it was the fact that I couldn't string loads of games, you know, like I I don't think I could have managed lots of 80 minutes in a row anyway. You know, I think I probably would have broken down. I think Pat was aware of that and aware that you know how how far he could probably push me. And I'd I'd always go as far as I could, but that you know, there was probably a limit on what my body could handle at that point. Um and this is probably sorry, this is probably the the latter half of my time at Bristol. I definitely, when I arrived, it was, yeah, wanted to be the number one seven, I wanted to be the guy and I wanted to show what I could do. But I I think I also learned off the back of those injuries that I have to be extremely like I have to be very good around the club, I have to help drive the team in any way I can. I had to help Pat, you know, because at the end of the day, yeah, he would he was our leader, he was in charge. Um, he's the man who's gonna give me another job or not. And so my career trajectory massively aligned with his. So how can I help him achieve his goals and be someone that he trusts, you know? So in terms of playing, I had to I had to really know the game. I had to really learn it intimately so I could really fit into my role and and do it to the best of my ability. Because you're right, I think I was the type of player who I don't think I had a very high feeling, particularly in in my later years, but I had a very high floor so I could perform well on a regular basis. But when the likes of you know DT or Fitzy or those, when they're at their best, I I don't think I would have caught them. But they have to be at their best, otherwise, you know, like you say, I was ready to step up. And that's why I think you know, when I look at my seasons, like the best years I had is when we performed badly, is when you know things are tough and the guys aren't going well, and I was able to keep going at you know at a at a good rate. And it's you know, I think there was that season where um I ended up captaining a guitar at the opening game of the season, and you know, that was fantastic. And but that's when I featured more was when things weren't going so well for us, because that's when one, that's when I sort of got going, and um, you know, and that's probably times when other guys struggled, you know. But when when we were flying and we were going really well, like I mean, you've named the guys, like they were very hard to keep up with and very hard to outplay, you know. So um, so yeah, no, definitely. I feel like I had my role in the team, and um, but that was also around just being the best version of me, you know, and and knowing that Pat trusted me to to do my job, and um you know the the window of opportunity in professional sport is is very, very small, and wherever I got that opportunity, I just had to make the most of it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

No, I think I think that's that's really that's fascinating, it's really really interesting. Lee, I think um uh you've got a question.

SPEAKER_05 47:49

Yeah, Jake, I mean, you've just given us the best insight into your consistency because me and the lads always said whenever you stepped in, you were just uh consistent from like from the the referee's whistle. And you've just summed it up perfectly. I mean uh it it was um uh what I'd like to know about let's tell tell us tell the listeners a bit more about the dressing room. What was the what what who were the characters in the dressing room? And you know, um because I'm sure you've you've got plenty of stories, and I know we have to condense this this interview, but you know, what what were the standout moments?

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Um yeah, a lot of a lot of characters. I was lucky to come through with that like really great group, you know, like you mentioned DT and um Callum, you know, the Ed Holmes and Jefferson were some really, really awesome guys. Um DT, absolute menace, like a lot of fun to to be around and a lot of fun in the beer. Ed Holmes was uh he was another one. Brian Byrne came through, he was great. One memory I have uh was that Stephen Lewis and Stag, and we're we were walking home, and Dan Thomas has found this like the side of the road. We were in Amsterdam, and Dan Thomas has found like this I don't think a pot plant does it justice. Like it was a small tree in a in a pot. And Dan's grabbed this tree and he's just pulled it out of the pot with all the dirt attached to it, and Ed Holmes has got his nice, you know, his new white shirt that's all ironed and he looks great, and he's just this thing across his back and just covered him, covered him in dirt. And I reckon for the next 30 minutes, all you can see is Ed and Dan running around the canals of Amsterdam, like trying to get each other. Um so look, and I like that was that was a pretty typical sort of uh yeah, with with those sorts of boys. Um uh Luke was another good one, like he was one, you know, very um, very stoic man and um you know, very uh yeah, like great guy to be around, very calm, and then every now and again we'll just send it and we would have, you know, it would be uh all over the show and and late night. So yeah, look, great boys. Um there's uh there's a few of them. We've had um George Klosker, he was another good one actually. Um Trip coming back from Newcastle and uh I think it was actually down at steam him falling asleep in one of the outdoor chairs and and getting kicked out. But no, good boys, good boys, good fun, all harmless.

SPEAKER_03 50:30

Talking of the dressing route at those times, you just thought of something. Did uh did Sammy Rundrunja ever learn the Blackbird? Because we always uh we always suspected that he didn't. I was just wondering you could tell us whether he did or not.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

I I doubt it. I don't know. I yeah, I don't know. He was still learning English. I don't know. Blackbird was that high on his list.

SPEAKER_03 50:53

Yeah, no, it's he'd always see we always suspected that he didn't quite know the lyrics whenever the uh he was planning to change a roof.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Keeping eye on those Argentinian boys as well. I wouldn't wouldn't trust them either.

SPEAKER_04 51:05

Oh but in general, yeah. I've got a quick question, Jake. Obviously, um, you know, you've had what uh in effect, you you play under Pat system for well, a bit longer than 12 years if you talk back in New Zealand days. Um, you know, you've you've won the Pro 12, but you came off the bench and we won the Challenge Cup in 2020. And you've sort of kept that faith, and you you know, you've told us, and I get it, that he's you know, he has such a good grasp of being a DOR and so dedicated, you kept that system and faith for so long. You know, I I imagine you've been keeping an eye on the boys this season and that they're doing brilliant, brilliantly. Um, I guess you know, from a sort of a retired player's point of view, uh can Bristol win the Prem? And and you know, when is it when do you think it's coming?

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Yeah, look, I I yeah, absolutely think they can. Um, and this year they've as good as shouters. And Zelly, um, in terms of like the system, because I I've I suppose through through my time I have a feeling that um uh a rugby system and and a way of playing the game has a threshold, right? It needs to be good enough to win games and good enough to to compete at the highest level, but anything past that is very much limited by the players, the culture, the the buy-in, you know, and so I think um when you get to that top level and you're playing the likes of you know the Saries and um I don't know who Northampton is at the top of the table at the moment. Um you know what's almost more important is is how much do we buy into what we're doing, how much do we believe in it, and and how how tough are the boys to deliver it. And toughness in that sense that you know unwavering commitment to doing what they need to do time and time and time and time. Yeah, because that's all the game of rugby is. It's just uh 80 minutes of collective small moments, and who can win the most of those moments, you know, will generally win the game. So um so yeah, look, I I think they certainly look, to be honest, I haven't watched Teach, but I've I've seen a bit of it, they look they look pretty good. Um but you you you wouldn't know unless you were I suppose unless you were in the dressing room. I think um like the the pack has been going well, I think it's been going well for quite a long time. I think that's something that's easily overlooked. It's very hard to win games of rugby if you know if if you set pieces and firing, and that's real credit to you know what Ira and Morgues have sort of done there. Um but yeah, look, I I would just say then it's down to um you know how well can can the group as a collective commit to whatever it is they're trying to achieve on any given week, and whether that's kick more or run more, or you know, if if they commit and execute, then they'll win games, you know. And um and and I suppose now it's all about that but can they build momentum going into the back end of the season? Because that's that's massive as well. And you know, if you if you lose a few in a row, it can be tough to um come back. So yeah, look, a bit of a bit of momentum and and some good weather towards the back end, and you know, I'd give them a really good chance.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

I presume are you back to are you gonna st are you back to in Bristol, you know, for permanent to to to work, you know, to basically run the the cafes and and whatnot?

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, back now. So we're expecting our second liney day now, and um, yeah, back and enjoying life um where I don't have to go mauling at at sort of 9.30 in the morning, which has has been a nice change of pace.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

Does that I mean does that mean I know pretty obvious question maybe, but you know, have you kind of discounted uh a future career in in coaching or or or anything else in rugby? Is it is it kind of rugby is now a in the past for you?

SPEAKER_00 54:57

Yeah, like not necessarily, but I think we're about now one, like I spent a lot of time in um professional rugby and um in and around those setups. So I think I'm I'm happy to get away from that for a little bit. Um and the other one, you know, like really fortunate with with the cafes, I'm able to uh you know have a semblance of of independence um while still having a lot of purpose around my job. And you know, I can be a dad to to my young kids and um enjoy, I suppose, a bit of flexibility in in uh in my schedule, which you know it's the one thing in pro sport is you're a slave to your schedule. Um so I'm enjoying that that side of it now anyway. So um who knows? Like I still you know work with a couple of boys back in New Zealand and I I really enjoy that that mental skills and mindset and performance element of of sport, but yeah, I I I don't know. I might circle back to rugby, but not right now.

SPEAKER_05 56:01

Jake, are you are you basically saying you're doing all the the hard work and Moorhan's sunning himself on the gold coast? Is that is that the is that what we're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 56:11

If I if I didn't say it explicitly, that's certainly what I meant to say. Yeah, and it's it's amazing. So, like, you know, obviously, you know, here slaving away for Luke, and you know, we all love to say how well Bristol's doing, but you know, no one's no one's come to thank me yet for freeing up the cat space for Lewis Reese Zabbit and Tom Jordan, which I don't like, which I obviously had to do to give them this opportunity. So um no, mate, it's good. Life's good, life's good. It's um brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 56:46

Those boys, those boys can afford their afford their own coffee as well, uh, can't they, Jake? You know, no freebies at the wages there on.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

No, no, that's it. That's it. I I didn't give up give up my my contract to them for nothing.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

No. Okay, well look, I've got I think I've got one last question, really quick one just before we finish. And and and thank you so much for your time and and like fantastic insight. Um my question is like, you know, looking back on your Bristol career, you know, what was your best moment?

SPEAKER_00 57:17

I I think my hundredth cap, I think that was, you know, that is probably one of my proudest rugby achievements. I like I know I I don't I hate to keep talking about my injury in that, but I think coming finishing that period where it was very, very much touch and go whether I'd ever, you know, play another game of rugby and then to be able to come to a club as um, you know, with as much pride um and I suppose success both on and off the pitch as Bristol and um to come through that, you know, that from the start of the prem and um achieve the things we did along the way and managing to to string together a hundred games I think was a really really proud moment for me.

SPEAKER_03 58:01

Right, so there we go, boys. There was our uh little interview with Jake. Um I mean it was great of him to to agree. We've always found that it's very easy to to get in touch and with with ex-players. Obviously, we've done we've done Dave Atwood, done Choice T, obviously. Uh we've done DT D Tallant, Calum D, Andy Aren, Andy Aren, Ian Madigan. We've got we've got a few notches on our metaphorical rugby bedpost there. We would have thought that ten years ago.

SPEAKER_05 58:31

Yeah, and and we should say, I mean, it was brilliantly, Jake, because it was it was quite late, wasn't it? On um, it was eight weeks, something like that.

SPEAKER_04 58:39

Well, the mitigation is he has got a second charge. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:45

And he slotted us in just before the bedtime, and also the the new baby. So yeah, again, great, great, great stuff. So yeah, I mean, we covered a few things. Uh we asked about his career, I mean, we asked about his relationship with Pat, we asked about um you know what what his kind of motivations were for because it was seven seasons with Bristol and uh and and we always said yeah, he was always his team-like, especially later at latter time of his his time with Bears, that he was the kind of slot in man. We called him the go-to man. He explained that quite well, I thought, about how he said that you know he was managing his uh his uh in general. He knew that you know he every game he played was like his cup final, like we said before.

SPEAKER_05 59:29

So I mean it it it kind of like emphasised how consistent he was for me, which is I I thought that was great because we always said like he doesn't play very often, but when he comes in, he's always like A1 level. And obviously that that just goes to show he because he knew he wouldn't play every game. But look, games that he was that he was targeting, he was ready for.

SPEAKER_04 59:54

I mean that was the good insight. I mean, I don't think yeah, I we you probably could have read that he had multiple shoulder surgeries over the years from Conock to Bristol, but you're right. I mean, we didn't quite realise toward the end of his playing career in Bristol why he was sort of on the bench who had come on for half the game, and and I totally get that now. And I mean, hats off to the chap. You've got 100 caps, 120 caps ultimately, or maybe one more or so. Um you know, and that's just fantastic to play that amount of rugby, still at that sort of you know, he's 33 now, uh, and still we you know, fully supported by Pat Land. Come on, and put on, as we've heard, absolutely out-of-head-skin performances. It's just phenomenal.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:36

For me, the big takeaway was um the kind of loyalty that Pat shows people that invest in in him. And like you say, he's Jake's followed him from Clark to Bristol. I know I didn't pronounce it properly, I guess American, but he's followed him from Ireland to from Galway over his door. And um and it just goes to show that you know Pat he looks after people, and he is ruthless at times, and we all know that, but equally he looks after the people that look after him, and that's gonna that was my biggest takeaway from that interview.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:14

It was interesting, and you know, we we said we talk about Pat all the time, don't we? And we don't know him, and none of us fans really know him. And you know, what is he what is his kind of what's he like as a DR? And I think it's very clear that Jake says, Yeah, he he he is he lives the he lives whatever he believes in, and and he takes people with him, and and if people fall out on him, it's usually because they're not following in it, you know, what he what his plan is, and that ultimately he is the headmaster, like we've always said, and he is it's his plan, he's the DOR. And as as uh Jake said, he would not in a million years would he ever want to pete a DOR. It's quite interesting he said that, but it's like the the hardest job in the world, and and people do sometimes go on about Pat being really well paid and stuff, and you can kind of see, well, you know, it's like a CEO of a company that's well paid, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:05

I mean, Pete is ultimately amazingly perfect, and you and I just totally're still here. But it's gonna be tooth money because we misbehave week after week after week, and you're you're the ultimate headman.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:22

I know that you buy into the idea though, please. We certainly do.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:25

And and what what I liked about it is he said Pat's first first game, the last time and that I mean that just shows the volume of the man. And do you know what I'd love? I'd love to the three of us to be sat down, no recording, you know, no microphone, no and just have a chat with Pat. Just I'd I'd love to get a bit of a feel of the guy, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:51

I don't think that would ever I know I think that part of his whole system is that is that his interaction with the fans would be very much the narrative that he already gives. I don't think we'd ever get anywhere. No, because we don't know him, you know. You'd have to you know, Jake's probably like I was struck with it, out of every player at Bristol, Jake is probably the one who knows him the best because he picked him up from blue. About why, you know, do you not regret he stayed to become an all black? And actually, what he said A, that he said, I just needed like pat I needed that sort of DOR. I don't think it didn't sound like he felt as though he would get that in New Zealand and therefore his career would flitter away. And secondly, he did make that point about New Zealand being a bit backward, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:40

It's like I I'd like to see the rest of the world and let's go disrespect to Europe. But it is a little bit behind the times at the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:47

It's just the farthest point in the world.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:49

Yeah, I don't think you find many French wives in New Zealand.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:53

It's what he's fine. It's like he's he's seen the world on the back of rugby and he's met his wife and he's and he and he's made all his friends and he and he said he's staying here, you know, it's his home.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:01

So this is the thing, and he's settled in the best place on earth, Bristol. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:07

No, I think that was interesting, really.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:10

I mean it's fantastic that he's gone through that sort of 12 plus years with Pat and an amazing rugby career to multiple clubs. Um, you know, he won the Challenge Cup with Patrick.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:21

What he did is he got he's won more trophies than most people at Bristol because he won the Pro 12 as well. So he's won the Pro 12. I mean like you said that thing about UK with all the sort of SEMI and all that lot there. And I was thinking actually, he's the only one who won anything. So he was the superstar. He was the one who came with you know what that was funny now, he said uh he said about STEMI, didn't he?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:43

Yeah, it's kind of like just reinforced everything we already knew, really.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

Did he really know the language? And he also give us a little a little warning about the Argentinians that we need to check when they do those when they do those change room things, we need to like just check to see whether those boys are. Check to see whether they're actually singing it or not. Yeah. And if they're not, if they're not, we're gonna get done involved in it. So anyway, I think that's I think I hope people enjoy listening to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:17

Yeah, it was such a nice bloke. I mean, an absolute store of the club for you know 12 seasons or sorry, seven seasons, 120 plus cafes. I mean, such a nice bloke, and you know, it's just fantastically pretty now called.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:37

Wrong to like kill the whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:40

When he expects three damage a bug of coffee, he didn't give him to us.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:43

That was a good category. That was a good category, except that I did a you know, you should be thanking me that you're gonna have it like that. That was a good little finish. Well, on that note, boys, I think we might have to call it a day. We're not quite sure. When we'll be back. When we'll be back, because as it's if I manage to or we manage to find something else to talk about in the next few weeks, we might.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:08

But otherwise we've got a few irons in the fire.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:12

It possibly won't be in the world. I think at the moment we'll say for sure that we'd we'll do something on the to preview Tigers, which I think would be the 15th of March, which seems quite a long time away. So I think we might try and slip something in, but it is quite difficult.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:26

We need a new title. We've got edupod, docupod, interview pod. We'll have to get a new podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:33

The Prem and did the RFU and Prem Rugby think about these fan-based podcasts when they changed all of the scheduling so that there's no games in the Six Nations. I mean they're very, very disrespectful to our effort that we put in.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:49

Because it's what we enjoy doing as well, as the listeners enjoy the bearing.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:51

The problem is the only thing we can really talk about is Bears games. And when there aren't any, there's not a lot else to talk about. Anyway, it is what it is. Right. I think we'll give it call it a day. So everyone, uh, I hope you uh have a have a good week, have a good month, probably. Um and uh let's hope it stops raining because it's getting a bit tedious now, is it? And those road works on Cumberland Road, that's getting tedious as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:13

Everything's everything in the idea is tedious because it's the worst time of year, isn't it? So we may see everyone when England win the uh Six Nations Grand Slam then. Hopefully, but it's gonna be a big game, that England-France game, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:26

Absolutely. But we've still got to go to Italy, we've still got to go to Scotland, and we've got to go to Edinburgh. Calcutta Cup, we haven't got a great record of it. So not recently. But whatever happens, I mean Genji had a a good game again, so um uh we'll keep I think they took him off, but they took him off to rest him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no point so we'd be ready for Murrayfield. Yeah. Anyway, as is the way, have a good week, stay safe, and up the bears.