Ep 223 - Dream start morphs into brutal lesson plus Big Day Out, Joe Jenkins and 'football men' as DORs

Transcript

Toulouse Ends The European Run

The One Download Countries Game

SPEAKER_01 0:05

You're listening to episode 223 of Bears Beyond the Gate, a Bristol Bears podcast made by fans for fans. With three friends who love the club, the game and all things bears. Well boys, the European adventure came to a shuddering halt in Toulouse yesterday, as it's safe to say we got mugged right and proper. It was a disappointing end to the campaign given our group game efforts and just shows what a load of nonsense the whole competition is. Where you win three group games, then you end up playing a team who lost two, and at their place. While the result was predicted, it was the performance that was disappointing, with another and also with another likely injury to add to our dwindling group of heady, heavy hitters. So it's hard to see how we can turn round this current slide. We talk about the game and look forward to the resumption of the Prem in a couple of weeks and discuss our expectations for this season and beyond. I'm Pete and I'm joined by Lee and Miles for a cheeky beer and a bit of rugby banter at the world famous Bristol Beer Factory Tap Room. We are well, you know, boys, I've added in the world famous bit because I had a quick look through our kind of Buzz Sprout website, and it tells you where you've had downloads over the years, and it turns out that we have had some sort of presence in 166 countries. Wow. Over the seven years we've been doing this. It's pretty impressive. It's insane. But then when I look down the list, there was a lot of countries where there was only one download. And I just had to do this like one time, so I was listened and then never listened again.

SPEAKER_05 1:33

But that's you've been on holiday to a couple of the venues. I do wonder.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

But it got me thinking, it's a bit like a game of pointless, you know, pointless where you have to guess the pointless answer. So here we go. We've got 27 countries where we've only ever had one download in our history. Okay. Uh any ideas where any of these countries might be? I'm going to give you one guess each.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Okay. Right, can I go for it? Yeah, go for it. I reckon we might have had a download today from Jerusalem. That's not a country. Oh no, of course not. Israel. Yeah, Israel. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

No, well, yeah, well, you'll come back to it, Miles. That's what I'm just checking. Fiji Fiji. Fiji, no. Oh. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

It looks like you knew someone from Fiji downloaded.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Neither of those aren't true. And before our listeners have started to get bored, I think I just thought for fun, I'll read out the 27 countries where we've only ever had one download. So here we go. Azerbaijan, Latvia, Dominica, Burkina Fasu, Curacao. We famously are in the World Cup, aren't they? Guadeloupe, famously the location of death in paradise. Serbia, I don't know who that was. Uh might have been Djokovic. The US Virgin Islands, Cote d'Ivoire, or the Ivory Coast, you and me. Tajikistan, Nigeria, Guyana, Uzbekistan, Samoa, which I was a bit disappointed about. Given Pat's links, I would have thought we'd had loads of Samoan listeners. Kazakhstan, Rwanda, Reunion Island, which is technically France, but anyway. Martinique, which is also France, Gibraltar. I thought there might be a few more Bears fans in Gibraltar, but maybe not. Niger, Lesotho, French Polynesia, Moldova, Mozambique, Kyrgyzstan, and the Gambia.

unknown 3:25

Bloody.

SPEAKER_05 3:25

Well, I wouldn't have guessed any of those.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

So those are places where I think our website suggests that we've had one download once in seven years.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Can I just say if any of our listeners are those people that did download in those countries, I genuinely would love to hear from them.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

And if we did hear from them, this is what we'd like to say.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Oh they can't even open a beer. Because that I mean that is pretty impressive. And I have to admit, Teach, the way you pronounce some of those those countries, yeah. I could see why you were in your red maid's badge. Cheers. Geography.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

But um other schools are available, by the way. But uh anyway.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

I know listeners will get bored, but I just want to know from because you're a geography teacher, Pete. Can you tell us the country that is farthest from the UK that we've been listened from?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Uh I think it's it's probably New Zealand. I'm pretty sure we've had a few from New Zealand, which is understandable, kind of a rugby country a little bit. So yeah, New Zealand would be furthest, I think, because once you get to New Zealand, you're going the other way around and you're getting closer the other way around again.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

So well, hopefully Nick Hall might be listening tomorrow.

Why The Defeat Still Hurts

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Well, Nick Owl, if we haven't had New Zealand, we're expecting to see one uh after this one's published, aren't we? Yeah, yep. Yeah, nice one. Anyway, boys, enough of the diversion tactics. Because I think there's a lot of people out there saying, What are you talking about this for? Well, the thing is, because we don't we're trying to put off having to talk about yesterday's game. As much as we can. And it's a weird one because the odds were ridiculous. So beforehand, so Toulouse was 60 to 1 on to win the game. This is a two-horse race. That's essentially the bookie saying you've got absolutely no chance, like literally no chance.

SPEAKER_05 5:14

Horse isn't even going to start. That's not even a two-legged horse, is it?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

But but this is in a two-horse race where you've got a chance of winning. Yeah, so so Bristol were 14 to 1 to win, which is pretty much a bookie saying, just give me your money, and the draw was 50 to 1, which is pretty much give me all your money.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

But I will say though, the odds weren't great when we played balls. Me and Miles Miles come around to my place, and I did have a tenor on Bristol to beat balls, and you know, so sometimes the bookies get it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

But I think the bookies had looked at the fact that we didn't have Rubiolo, we didn't have Batley, we didn't have Big Bill Matter, um, and and they had like 15 internationals. But anyway, so the point I'm trying to make is that you know, there was no real kind of expectation to win this game. Um, everything statistically and um and motionally suggested that we had no chance whatsoever, and despite a little bit of pre-game bravado from the fans, mainly from me posting pictures of Mick McCarthy saying when he goes that thing, can we? You can um it was clear. But the thing is, boys, if that was obviously gonna happen, why are we feeling so disappointed about it? Yeah, so Lee, over to you, right?

Fast Start Then Unforced Chaos

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Thanks for that that intro, Pete. Uh, I think we're all feeling disappointed because I didn't feel, and I'm pretty sure you guys would agree, we didn't give it our best shot. We like we knew we were up against a much superior opposition. Um but if we give it the best we can give it, then we hold our hands up and think we've lost to the better team. In on this particular occasion, I don't think that happened. I don't I think that the mistakes that we made continually from what minute six onwards led to our downfall, and I kind of I kind of feel like none of us were probably expecting to win a game if we're honest, but at least if we've given it everything, then then we can get all the rounds up almost like we did against Claremont last season. We give it a good old go, we lost the game, but but we you know we were proud of the team.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

I can't say I was proud of that performance, and I mean even against Bordeaux at our place, you know, we we did a and Toulouse would have probably looked at that game and thought, you know, Bristol Aren't the mugs. Um, I mean it's interesting you say minute six because obviously the first five minutes were unbelievable, and it was exactly um what Rob from Roast Beast Rugby said. So any of you, any of the listeners who listen to his quick preview, he did say that the one crumb of comfort or somewhere we might get a slither of hope was the scrum, and they're in and they're inside centre. And if uh Pierre-Louis Barassi plays, he's a great player, but he's liable to be a you know maybe a weak link. Lo and behold, we make a break straight from kickoff and we almost score, but then we made a but then we had a really we had a solid scrum on the halfway, really solid scrum, proper platform. Harry runs blind, great little move, break through the gap, couple of phases, fit scores, and they they look shocked. They looked shocked, they didn't know what hit him. And I think at that moment, they a lot of those players are thinking, my god, we're in a game here, and then immediately after the conversion, Barasi gets hooked off. Now the commentators the phrase from the commentator was the shepherd's crook, yeah. He got I think he got hooked off because that was two breaks down his channel.

SPEAKER_04 8:47

Happy Easter, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

And and then, which is I mean, that's hardcore coaching, that is. I mean, that and they brought on Sebasti Sebastian uh Santiago Chocobales, who just basically didn't ever let anyone go through a hole again, did he? It was I mean it was almost like the the coach admitting that he got his selection wrong straight away because Rob from Roast Beefs did say he thought Chocobaris should start, yeah, but he thought Barasi would.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Anyway, but that's but that is the beauty of having two players in the same position. And I know we've got a load of injuries again. I it I don't know, it almost feels like that's like every so often we're just talking about injuries all the time on pod. Yeah, but two players, like when you when the player that comes on is actually stronger effectively than the player that went off, you you know what I mean? You know you're up against a brick wall, and I think well, as you can say, you say what you think of that.

SPEAKER_05 9:43

I mean you're right. I mean we you we harp on well, no, we don't, do we? Pat Pat Lamb suggests that our squad depth, despite a small squad, every next player is ready to step up and play in that position. And I I fully support that, and there's absolutely that should happen. But what's been proved this weekend that the support player, be it be it injury or not injury, is you know not quite as big as wide uh as good, and and they that will come, but if we're playing at this level in the European Cup against a squad, you know, and a team as good as Toulouse, it's just bitten us in the bum, yet again, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Well, it's funny you should say that because actually I was just thinking I actually got Pat some stats in comments. Yeah, I got some stats. I mean, just for those people that I mean, I can't believe that anybody who listens to this pod doesn't know what happened on Saturday because or they just accidentally they thought it was a Chicago Bears pod or something like that. But um, I mean basically we uh we scored first, unbelievable try, seven nil up, and it was also under the sticks, which is always a good one, not in the corner, seven nil up, and we're thinking, oh my nell. I was actually thinking, and then and then unfortunately we drop the ball straight from the restart, they get a scrum, they score quite easily. They're our defence look pretty weak on the line. Then we get a penalty, give the ball away very quickly after that, they score again, and then on the restart from that try, they run from their 22 and run straight through us, and they score again. So they basically scored three tries by us essentially gifting them possession.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

I mean, watching it live, it was it was just the the game was just it gone.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Well, I mean they scored eventually they scored six unanswered tries. I mean, they scored five tries before half time, um, and they scored 40 points in 40 minutes. Yeah, and then having said that, at the end of the game, they'd only scored 59. It was a 19 all second half.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Yeah, but I think we could we could contribute that to the fact that they'd switched off because they knew the game was winning.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

I mean they scored nine tries to four, and two of our tries were right at the end. One of them was an interception, but then one of theirs was an interception. But anyway, this is what Pat said after the game. Um, we started really well, but every error we made, they punished us. We gave them too much for free, and I think from our first four errors, they scored four times, and then we were chasing the game, which is never easy here. But I'm really proud of the boys, they stayed in the fight. It could have got really messy, but we came back with some tries, and then after that he said, Um, we just made two many errors and got punished, which is what happens when you play the very best teams. I know the character of this group, and the boys will keep going, and everyone is pretty disappointed. At half time, we said let's just get rid of what happened in that first half and really take it to them in the second. We still made a couple of mistakes, and you just can't get a team, you can't just get a team like to lose the foothold like we did or give the team. So he's not wrong, is he?

SPEAKER_03 12:38

No, but but he's just telling us exactly what we already know.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

And this is always the balance these people have got to have. We've talked about this before. It's like, yeah, I get that, but you know, I don't think that we made those mistakes under pressure. No, this is my problem with the whole thing, is that I understand when you make mistakes under pressure, but we literally gifted like on Easter Sunday, we gave them some gold-plated wrapped Bristolian eggs and told them to take them to the triline and lay them there. And this is my problem with it. It's like, okay, I get it. I also get the fact that we we were underpowered, we didn't have our enforcers, but we proved in the first seven minutes if we do it right, we were we had a lot going for us.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Yeah, but all those things they don't justify the mistakes that we made. At the end of the day, we've still got 15 guys who are wearing the bearish shirt, starting that game, who should be absolutely like 100% into everything they're doing, and they should know the game plan. Like you say, we we gifted so much to them.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

I think even their fourth try was Stevie gave away a sealing off penalty right in R22, and I thought, Stevie, what are you doing? But then when the replay I showed the replay is that he was actually there, it was and we counter-rucked, but he got pushed from behind by two of our players who pushed him literally on the floor and he sealed off. He couldn't help it, it wasn't really his fault, but I was thinking that's just a kind of that's just a a rucking mistake. Like somebody would should have realized that we didn't need to push, you know, it's it's easy to I know it's easy to say it in it for us sat here with a couple of beers, but in the heat of the moment, when you're on you know, it is difficult, but it's just another error that was the problem.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

I don't want to pick any players out individually because we never do that, but there were some really daft things that we did on that pitch that we wouldn't necessarily normally do, and I I don't know, I kind of felt that the once the disappointment had gone that we'd you know we'd already lost the game. I kind of I kind of felt like well Pat is right, we did stay, we did stay in there. I mean, I think 70 odd points was it against Leicester Tigers they put on Leicester last year or so. I mean it could have it could have got horrific, but ultimately we're in the Champions Cup, right? And we've got to be competitive because what's the point of us being in it otherwise? I mean, are we there are we just there to to have a glory day out you know in Toulouse, or are we there to actually you know eventually try and win the thing and or or at least compete? Because that's my problem, that's the issue.

SPEAKER_05 15:25

But it I think about, I mean, unfortunately, I didn't see the game, but I listened to most of it on BBC Radio Bristol. I was sort of in France last week, but not in the right, yeah, yeah, not in the right part of France. Um, and it just sounded even the commentators just almost sort of gave an air of just disappointment after disappointment after disappointment that the the the errors Bristol were constantly making, and it's uh sadly now it seems to have built from the last three games. It's really odd that we have that Leicester defeat, which is a pretty tight, that big day out defeat against uh Harlequins, and ultimately an amazing team in France, and the error count has really been Bristol's downfall for the last three games. The effort is tremendous, and we're not we're not saying that they put in 110%, and it's I I just cannot, you know, I I can't put my finger on it, but the errors at the completely wrong time, the missed tackles, some of the defensive errors that that to you and I seem like if I'm being taught by a proper defence coach to be in the right position, how can I not get that tackle in? And it's just painful, painful to watch at the moment. Um just need to turn it around, and it's you know, hugely disappointing.

Tactics Basics And Coaching Questions

SPEAKER_01 16:42

And I think I think one of the answers to this is quite simple, is that we're not as good as we think we are sometimes. And actually, we we we've we've got a you know, we we had a fantastic really pre-6 nations uh season where we eked out some good games. We we kind of had an underdogs mentality, didn't we? And we we you know we dealt with those injuries and we eked out some good victories and we didn't get many tri bonus points, mind, but we eked it out, and then we've had that gap, and we've had these two see well, it's three now serious injuries Batley, Ruby, Matter, and they are massively they are a massive part of this. Yeah, of course. Because we you've got to create some sort of go forward or whatever grunt or grunt, but it's just equally it does look like we're gonna break and we don't know each other anymore.

SPEAKER_05 17:33

It feels like you know it feels like we we never play together. I mean we feels like we never played as as a team together, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 17:40

At the moment, you know, it's this thing with the mantra is that you know every player gets 10,000 touches of a ball in a week, but we're throwing the ball at people's heads under not a lot of pressure, or we're not kicking the ball through when it's obvious that you should try and like why are we trying to to beat to lose from deep like when we when they're just lining up to pick us off?

SPEAKER_03 18:00

They're probably the best team in Europe to do to counteract that.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

And this is the qu this is also the question to ask is that we didn't you know we we you know we went two tries down, but even when we went one try down, unfortunate, we still try to rim them from deep. It's like but the only reason we scored that first try is because we had a platform, a scrum. We weren't flinging it and like why isn't why is that and I don't know where that comes from. Is that just the mentality or the whatever?

SPEAKER_03 18:26

But this is gonna sound really controversial, but like we're here for our opinions, right? There's got to be something wrong with the coaching setup for us to to have continually played the way we played when it wasn't working, and we and this isn't uh this hasn't just happened yesterday, this has happened on a on a much more um permanent basis than I'd like to admit.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Although we could, I mean, I to caveat that you're right, you know, up to the Six Nations, we were all saying actually we're playing quite well, we're playing pragmatically, we're playing to the conditions, but we didn't play like that, but we did the last three, we haven't. No, no, we haven't, yeah. And I and this is the question now. We don't know the answer, but something's not quite right, and it you can't just blame two or three players being out. Um, anyway, like I think we we're kind of saying what I imagine a lot of people are thinking. Um, it was it was basics, there was an element of tactics, obviously, like we said. I felt as though there were times where we we should have just pushed, tried to push Toulouse back into their 22 because I think we've even heard I'm sure I've heard people like even coaches saying that we've got to get into the I know that's England, sorry, that's Borf saying we've got to get into the 22 to score, but it's like it's actually quite a basic point, isn't it? It's actually quite especially against a team like Toulouse. You're gonna really struggle.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

I mean, the the one thing that I that I felt when I watched Toulouse is the the way they were constantly pushing us back, yeah. You know, even even like a metre, you know, backwards could that the forward momentum that they had just gave them the basis to to play and it and it kind of felt like we couldn't stop it.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

In a funny way, I I thought the forwards in that first half couldn't did I I think that we were quite weak on the line, and that's really easy for a weak, pathetic person like me to say, but they seem to get over quite easily those two push-over tries. We are more disintegrated on one of them. Jack Willis got over with about five people hanging off him. Malvaca got over. I think when we were we in the past we felt as though we've defended our line quite well, and actually that might be a Batley Rubiolo issue, and actually the writing was on the wall a little bit in that um Prem Cup game against Sale, where we conceded quite a lot of tries, didn't we? Of course, and I did I remember us all saying, you know, that's that's a bit worrying that our defence on the line, you know, we've got a reasonably good side out here. Like, is that anyway? That's by the bye. So you're right, I don't know, it's um it's it's frustrating. Um, I mean, the other thing that word's becoming like as popular or as as used now as you know, but I mean we alluded to other other things are it's like I think our overall tackle success rate was 61% in the whole game, but in the first half I know it was about 44 because they said it on comms, and that's just you know, tackling is a basic, innit? Like Pat's even said this in the past that you know it's not these are these things that you're supposed to be world-class at things that don't require skill, which is basically catching running and tackling, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

And I mean, there was also there was a a like their third try. I just looking back at my notes, it was just too easy. We stood off, we stood off for too long and just let them. It was almost like we were watching them play, yeah, and and it was almost admiring their, you know, the way they they. Do what they do and not having any influence on it.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

I mean I think this is the other big problem, innit? It's like that's fine, but where are we able to change that narrative?

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Well, I mean, you've you made a good point, pre-pod about where we made big mistakes, players coming inside off the wing. And I mean, it do you want to mention that?

SPEAKER_01 22:22

I mean, just talking about basics. I mean, we're you know, it clearly the basics weren't there, and I said earlier it didn't feel like the basics were being done with no, you know, they weren't necessarily under pressure, but there was at least two situations where we had people biting in when they should have been trusting their inside defence, and that led to tries. Now that to me is like I you know that that's kind of basic, and I'm sure the players know that, but obviously that that therefore is a communication issue, yeah, and nobody's really like if you're a winger and you you know that your wing is out there and you've got someone, you've got to you've got to be being told by your inside defence to you know, we'll get it. And there was one time, you know, it and I think it was one really obvious one because they I can't remember what it was, but it was pretty obvious that the inside defence were pretty close, and the winger didn't need to go in, and but no one's obviously told him he would that would be and then it's just little things like baby, maybe it's easy for us to say when you're not in front of 32,000 French fans all shouting at you, but but that's kind of the basics of defending.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

And I think people playing in the positions they're comfortable in makes a big difference, and I'm not sure we've got players that are playing in it.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

It feels like we're kind of fitting a few not round pegs into square holes, but some slightly like a 50 pence piece into a round hole.

SPEAKER_04 23:43

Oval, oval shaped centric. I'm really forcing it.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

It kind of fits, but you get there halfway and you think, oh, I better just keep going and stick it down, it's probably better. Yeah, it's it's a difficult one. I mean, it it is, and I think, you know, I I'm just wondering whether you know, I I you know, there I don't know, it's it's it's it's it's it's being it's it's difficult because you do what you can. So anyway, what else we got?

SPEAKER_03 24:06

Well, I'm gonna lighten the load a little bit more. Well, something cheery because on 30 minutes I um I heard over the the Tannoy that zombie by Cranberries was being played. And at that point I actually thought that cheered you up, did it? Well, it cheered me up because I thought we actually were playing like zombies a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

So that was uh harsh, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_05 24:26

Well, yeah, it was it was very harsh, but I just I just thought it just did the French French comes, it was we thought it was just it's got the wrong wrong wrong country, so it would g up the G U Irish.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

I I genuinely think you're right. I think they think that Bristol's in like Ireland is like British Isles, and we're we're all basically the same, but like with that load of annoying people that are off the kind of coast of Europe, forgetting even that Ireland are more got more in common with France because they're in the EU. I genuinely think that that was just a French geographical ignorance coming through.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

And we will talk a bit more about that and about in the second half, won't we?

SPEAKER_01 25:02

So, anyway, I mean let's let's let's get on a bit. It was clearly all over by half time, whatever any. I mean, yeah, it would have been an unbelievable comeback, probably the biggest comeback in the history of any sport, not just rugby in the history, even going back to the gladiators, it would have been his biggest comeback.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Even more than Leicester Piggett.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yeah, well, so it was over, and it was a good, it was nice in the second half that we did score a few tries and we kept at the fight. And and there's and that's good for you know, it was good to watch. I kind of I'd switched off mentally by half time. I was particularly when we let them score straight after half time as well. That was the clincher. I thought, you know, okay, now I'm just gonna kind of just watch a few players, see how they're reacting, see if I can work out where you know what we do. And it was you know, it in a funny sort of way, I quite enjoyed once they scored their sixth try. I kind of had accepted the inevitable and I kind of then just watched it almost as a neutral, just to sort of see what Toulouse were doing and like what we were doing. It was it was kind of nice in a way, and then and then I watched it again this morning. I was furious.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

I I um yeah, I I just the first half was so bad for me. I thought Pat's gonna kick him right up the arse, they're gonna come out in the second half, all guns blazing, and we'll get the first try within the first two or three minutes. This is all going on in my head. You imagine, yeah. Yep, and um, and basically the opposite 30 seconds in, score again. The opposite happened, and then I just thought, do you know what? F it.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

I'm not sure if that was the actual time the commentator said it, but he definitely said it quite near that point, he said, Bristol have been hit below the waterline and are sinking fast. I like a little nautical metaphor.

SPEAKER_05 26:45

Love it, love it.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Um, but they didn't sink completely fast. They they I think they didn't completely sink to the bottom of the sea. There was a little bit of the. Oh, it wasn't a Titanic moment.

SPEAKER_05 26:54

It was like the little torpedo, just knocked the propeller off.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

We weren't in shallow water, so it it hit the bottom, the boat Bristol boat, and then a little bit of the mast was spoken up out of the sea.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

It was like that what was the the the Queen was it the Queen Elizabeth that's still like uh hanging around in Hong Kong Harbour. It was a little bit like that, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. We were still there, we were still hanging.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

I know, I know. Fortunately, we weren't like uh we weren't the um the golden hind or the uh um what's the one bloody Nelson? What was his one? I've for completely forgotten. Admiral Nelson's what was his ship? Oh, I can't believe it. The victory, the victory, the greatest, the greatest bloke in history, yeah. The victory, yeah. We definitely weren't that, were we?

SPEAKER_05 27:39

No.

Ntamack Hit And The Card Debate

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Um but anyway, right, so yeah, I mean, second half, Jansey van Rensburg got his cheek broken by Entermac. Yeah, it was a yellow card. Well, we both disagree with that, don't we, Pete? I I thought well, I thought I looked at it. I mean, obviously the French director didn't give the ref much help by by clear blurring every single frame.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Oh no, but yeah, I think it was it was like a a Chinese porn movie at one stage. Oh no, not that I've seen many Chinese porn movies, by the way, folks.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

But Miles has switched his VPN over to that, by the way. But the um what I thought was interesting because if it had been a head-on-head, I think it was red. Yeah, of course. But my my point is that in Tamak at no point was he ever low and he just got higher, and actually at point of contact of his shoulder, his head was higher than JVR's and he broke his cheek. Yeah. So how's that less dangerous than a head-on-head? And if the whole point of these sanctions is to stop high tackles and head injuries, why is he what's the point of that sanction where they ended up scoring two tries? What's the point of it? It now there was some mitigation. They said Chocobarra's son of came across, but Ntamac was never in a position.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

It was never he was never in the eye line of uh Ntamac, and you just you just you it to me it was it was a red card all day long, and that that wasn't like it wasn't just having my bare shirt, yeah. Yeah, but it was in any other game, I would have said that was red.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah, I I just think it in any but in any you know it was an you know the guy's broken his cheek. You know, it was like I looked awful. He got more if it had been head on head, he might have got a headache. But he had a broke, you know, a shoulder is a lot uh a shoulder that's coming up at you, yeah, it's got to be more dangerous. Anyway, there'll be noise.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

He's got a bit of form as well, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

He is a bit, I think he's a bit of filth in Tamak.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Well, that's a you know, we we always Bernard well and yeah, we I mean he looked very disappointed when he came up. Apparently, by all accounts, I think uh one of our listeners he was on the uh scene Yancey after the game said it wasn't broken. Oh, good. So hopefully, fingers crossed a couple of weeks rash, yeah. A shed load of iris than what it happened.

Listener Reactions And Small Positives

SPEAKER_01 29:57

He's gonna come out with one of those, like Gaza did with one of those masks on. That'd be quite yeah. Do you think if he did, it would be like a bears branded one for the Gloucester game? It'd have to be, would it? Because they'd have a few of those left out from lockdown and they could re-stitch it up. Anyway, we shouldn't joke about something that was actually quite unfortunate. And then I suppose the other thing um I was gonna mention was a few. Let's uh well actually, I was gonna mention a few listeners actually. We didn't get that many short, sharp summaries. I think people, it's quite late on, and I didn't ask for any couple starting in France, which is absolutely 1200 people went over and we salute those people.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

100%. We're gonna cut. I mean, Dominic Somerville, who's regular listener, we haven't seen for a while, but he said at half time, I know Toulouse are a great side, but how many of their tries have come from our mistakes or inaccuracies? I love the ambition, but if you can't pass well to a teammate for FFS, take the contact in Captain Head and recycle. We're trying to force the impossible. I mean, we've made that point, but it's a good point, well made. Um, who else said something? Henry Dickinson, who's quite a young lad. He's quite a young lad, he he's quite vocal. He's an absolute joke, we rested JVR last week and lost for the inevitable to happen this week. Village. Great word, village, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

You could like use village for something.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

I've known that for a while. I know, but but actually it's a fair point. It's a fair point from last week's game, really. I don't know why we why we uh why we rested him, but unfortunately now he's he's gonna be rested for quite a while. I suspect so. Um, and then we had uh Spencer McMizon. Oh he emailed us today. I meant to tell you, boys. He said, Hello, lads. Planet, have we expensive? And he said, Greetings from Sonny Toulouse. So he was out there, he was emailing from Toulouse. It's a shame Bristol got taught a bit of a rugby lesson yesterday, but what a stadium, what an atmosphere, and what a city. We'd be back here in a heartbeat. The question is, will Bristol ever be back? Um will they have what it takes to mix it with European rugby's aristocrats in the future? A question for the end of the season, perhaps. Well in the meantime, we have to give it 100% for the remaining Prem games, just as we did last night. Up the Bears, Spencer Mizen.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Brilliant. I think that's a great question. I'd love to answer it now, but I don't know if it's the No.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

I think it's something to answer a bit closer to the end of the season.

SPEAKER_05 32:23

I think so. You know, I I think you pointed to it, alluded to it earlier on. If Toulouse had only ever seen that one game where Bordeaux came to town and we nearly took them, they would have been worried. But ever since then it's kind of a bit downhill, isn't it? And they probably thought it's a breeze, and ultimately, it ultimately it was. And only you're right, yeah. You know, we we could. We proved the Bordeaux when they came to Bristol, we could mix it with the big boys, um, and ultimately when we we tried that down at one of the you know the champions of Europe, what five, five, five, six times, um, it didn't quite pay off.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

I'll tell you what I would love to know though, is uh from Spencer, um like maybe email us personally because I'd love to know like how it was how Toulouse was that good, yeah. How like what they did differently to what we do, and I'm not saying we can we can kind of you know do the exact same things in Bristol because it's yeah a different area, but it'd be nice to know exactly like how they kind of got the experience and well and the on that note.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

I was just gonna carry on with the positives. Just going through my list of positives, first five minutes, that was the first part. Well, I'd say the whole build-up to the game was positive. Yeah, it was quite a bit. Fitz Harding was a massive positive, lovely weather, lovely weather. Um, Fitz Harding, one mistake, but then scored a try again. Like another, he's like become our go-to like grunt merchant, he has, and and it was just never gave up. And you know, I think he would have got a lot of respect from that French side.

SPEAKER_03 33:59

Massively.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Um, there was one for those university buffs out there, there was one nice moment where we Fitz stole one of their line outs because he's not normally a jumper, but anyway, he stole a line out and he stole it off T-Ball Flamand, who famously was at Loughborough University, and Fitz was at Durham. And I wonder whether that's not the first time they've played each other, um, because they wouldn't have played each other Bristol to lose, because that was the first time we've ever played to lose. But I did wonder, because Flamand was he was at Loughborough, um, and I've got a feeling, I don't know whether it was the same time, but I thought it was a nice little moment, it was a little you know, um bucks moment, and Fitz got one over on Flamand, he's you know England International, uh French International. So the other thing, I thought Jimmy Williams is kind of a positive in the sense that he had a tough day at the office at times, but actually he kept going and going and going and and scored that intercept try, and he had some gas on him.

SPEAKER_05 34:55

He did, I was just surprised really. I thought in the highlights this morning, I thought he was I thought he was gonna be puffing down in south south of France.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Well before the halfway line, absolutely, he had moments of brilliance, yeah, he had moments of why he would, yeah, and but he kept going, and I'll tell you what, I I love Jimmy Williams, I love his work rate, I love his attitude, and he he just he's he's like a draw a cell bunny, it just keeps going and going.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

And I know and I know for a fact that that he'll have he'll have embraced that experience, yes, yeah, absolutely, because and he'll it'll have made him a better player by and I just looked at I mean there was one bit where he was he he tried to have a little scrap with Teddy Thomas and I thought fair play Jimmy like Thomas like who are you? It's like I don't care, I'm Jimmy Williams from Wareham.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Teddy Thomas it's Teddy Thomas, though.

SPEAKER_05 35:47

Teddy Thomas Teddy Thomas, but I think his name's Theod Theodore Thomas.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

So uh Edward Thomas from but anyway, so far Thomas from Bemster Dang School. I think I think fair play to Jimmy for for getting all the way and and and actually coming finishing quite strongly.

Reset Weeks Top Four Chase

SPEAKER_05 36:04

Another point, which which we did mention pre-pod, but I guess slightly controversially, why why is Jimmy Williams kicking all our attempts at the sticks instead of our number 10? That's a very good point, Miles. Pete, what what say you?

SPEAKER_01 36:18

I just think it's not it's not exclusively, I mean obviously Ramos is not 10, but he is he kicks all the ones for Tilly's à France. But I just sort of feel like a number 10 has to own that shirt a bit more. I agree. And I mean Tom Jordan didn't take the kicks, he we know he can, but he would probably say maybe he's not a regular kicker. I agree. Because obviously for Scotland Finn's does it, 10. Um, and he hasn't, and and again, it's like, well, I sort of feel like if you're the person taking the kicks, you want to be in the thick of it. Like maybe Jimmy should go ten for the rest of the season because he also is he's very good with ball out of hand as well. And I think that was something we felt there could have been a little bit of pinning to lose back with ball out of hand, and Jimmy has got a good boot on him.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

I just feel we don't use Jimmy Williams to the best of what he's too good, and he's like Ewan Lloyd, isn't he?

SPEAKER_05 37:05

He's too good a utility player, you know, yeah, you know, and his his accuracy at the pass, his pinpoint passing is phenomenal. So you're right.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

I mean I I wonder, I mean, we've got enough you know, we are uh I mean, well, this is what Pat said, um, which actually might be useful. He said, um after he also said, you know, in the fact we you know we've got two weeks off now, we've got a salvage. I think this was from the Bristol Post, uh, you know, Bristol's Gallagher Prem Clash on April the 17th is now about salvaging something from the season with the Bears sitting in fifth place in the league, seven points adrift of Exeter in fourth. Pat added, or Lam added, the last three weeks haven't been what we wanted, so now we have a couple of weeks to reset and reflect. We have got six games to get ourselves in the top four, and it's a big, big couple of weeks for us. So I thought how big? Well, I mean, we could this let's move on to this one because this is what we were talking about before it'd be quite amusing to think how big what's the all of it like we did. So we deconstruct this statement. Is that we've got a couple of bit to reset and reflect. Now, what's in Pat's mind? What do you think he's gonna be making the players do for the next two weeks? How big, how big a mirror can you? Well, no, I'm thinking I'm thinking, you know, the Roundham Hill, whatever it is that goes down from Bedminster Cricket Club up towards Bakerbush, running up and down that hill about 20 times, I reckon some of those. I think the boys might be sat for it.

SPEAKER_05 38:30

Do you think you might say you ain't bringing your cars to the HPC today? You're running up Roundham Hill, Bedminster Cricket Club's HBC twice.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

Twice. I mean it does make me laugh, I'll be honest, because like what can you do reflection-wise, to there's an error, there's an error here, isn't there? There's is it's either an error with the coaching or there's an error with the playing. Yeah, is it's it's one of is it's a bit of both. I mean it could be it it could it could be a bit of both, but ultimately when you've coached, you send the players out on the pitch, and then you hope that they execute what you've coached them throughout the week, yeah. Yeah, but there's a breakdown here, and and and I don't know really where it's coming from. Well, I do know where it's coming from, but again, we'll probably have that chat at the end of the season. But whatever is going on, it isn't really a place of reflection, isn't it? It's not like we're going to the Buddhist fucking temple here. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 39:35

It's it's like I reckon there'll be some brutal feedback across the whole, there has to be because three games we've lost three games in a row, shipped at we've lost to a Harlequins at our big day.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Leicester always tough Leicester was a tough game.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

We should have beat we were in a position to win Leicester, and we didn't, yeah, but that and that, and then to lose this is the weird thing, like we said right at the top of the show. No one expects us to win, but we're still going to reflect hard on quite a lot of that. Um, and it and Pat says we've got six games to get ourselves in the top four, obviously. But six games is still a lot of games, actually, despite the fact we've got Bath at home and Saracens at home, but it's still a lot of Newcastle away.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

I think we've got we've got two winnable games now. I think we could beat Gloucester, we could beat Falcons, yeah, but then we have got what two or three tough games after that.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

And we still got Sale away as well, who you know what, last game of the season, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:32

Um but it's strange, psychologically now. For me as a fan, the season ticket holder, I feel really, really, really down on the situation going into the last run of six games.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Um three weeks ago you were up.

SPEAKER_05 40:46

You're absolutely right. Whereas, you know, Pete and I went down to um Chiefs away, um, and the massive defensive effort we put in on that horrendous storm to win that game. We were on such a high, and we thought we've turned the corner massively. The defence has been phenomenal, yeah. Um and and since then it's it's just it's it's just gone downhill, and I and I I I don't know there is how much reflection can there be? I mean, there was a place, there was a beautiful, beautiful training ground up at Abbots Lee where you could sit like a Buddha for hours on end and reflect and etc. Uh and but I don't know. I I am extremely worried as seasons you get holder that we are just now cut adrift from that top four spot, and I suspect I'm not you know many a fan feel like we've just we've cocked it up.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

And also I'm not having I mean we've we've chosen to have a smaller squad this season, and I don't want to hear any more about injuries. I I'm I'm sick and I'm sick to the back teeth now talking about injuries. This like if we haven't got an academy to step up, then or we haven't got the the you know the replacements bench to step up, then we've got to start being honest with ourselves and saying that because it otherwise we're having as much reflection as supporters as Pat Lamb's having with the team, you know. It's again I kind of feel like that honesty needs to start coming into our conversations.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

I mean it's it says we've got a big, big couple of weeks. I mean, I I'm interested if is it what's a big big compared to a big big big couple of weeks? I I it it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because a lot of it is it gonna be mental? I mean, they they've got to really get themselves up for that Gloucester game. It's a Friday night game back at the gate. We haven't been at the gate for a Prem game for it seems like months. Well months, literally months.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

We're still gonna have the same players.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

We're gonna still have the same players. Broadly speaking, they're probably gonna play the same way with maybe a few tweaks. But Pat's got to get his selection right, he's gotta he's got to judge which players are gonna we've got to hit the ground fast, and but but not just I mean, we hit the ground fast against Toulouse, I hear people shout, but we've got to then sustain that for at least 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

Yeah, um so personally, I wouldn't I wouldn't have um Lewis Free Samet at fullback. I'd play him on the wing.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

I would say play him on the wing. I think he's you know, I I just think he's he's learning on the job, and now we we can't afford that. I think we need to have direct you know, Noah Heward comes on. I I think if Rich Lane's not injured, I think Noah Heward has got to start a fullback. Yeah, I think Lewis Free Samit on one wing, and I think we'd stick with Ravovo on the other, and maybe Gabs, you know, needs to go on the bench for a bit just to to run.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

It wasn't it wasn't Gabs' best.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Yeah, and he knows that. And you know, he's had a tough time. He's he's had a really bad injury, and he's he's he's come back in Prem Cup games. Then he's come back into a losing team. It's not easy for us.

SPEAKER_03 43:52

He's still coming back, isn't he?

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Yeah, so I mean I think it would be a sensible man management to give him a put him on, and then I'm thinking I mean, I'm thinking then the rest of it, we're we're really stuck because I think I radically we could put Jimmy at ten and Tom Jordan can go at twelve and take his place at twelve and try that out.

SPEAKER_05 44:11

I don't disagree with that at all.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

No.

SPEAKER_05 44:13

I mean we've we've got to try anything, haven't we? Something at least to sort of change it up a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

And if we're assuming that um JVR's out, let's assume he may not be back for that that game. I mean, we've got Matthias Moroni is is is here, he's a 13, so he'll come in. But you know, ironically, we'll probably have to get someone like well, possibly Joe Jenkins, who we're now just releasing, or Jack Bates if he's fit, they've got to come in as as cover, of course. Um, and then on up top, I mean, I say the pack, they're not there's not, it's just that like one percent extra. You know, I think they're they're obviously giving George George Taylor came on for the whole of the second half, yeah, and that's great experience for him, you know. That is because he is, you know, we're dunny going. Um George Taylor is clearly our next in line in the terms of the kind of the second row six line out, bit of grunt. You know, he looks he looks like a big unit, a big strapping lad. So that was good, but he's got to stay involved for this to get his experience. I mean, he's a kind of he's for next season, really, but you know, he's potentially someone that we're talking about that will be our uh, you know, somebody who's on a par with the grunt with a bit of mobile. So you know.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

I I will like I'm jumping forward a little bit here, but I will say for next season though, the fly aft position really worries me. Yeah, it really does worry me, and I feel if we don't get something sorted out fly aft for next year, we're gonna be well.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

We've got to assume that that's it for Aj, isn't it? I mean, he's he's not gonna get another conversation.

SPEAKER_03 45:48

As much as we hate to say it, yeah. I think you're right. Um, but it just doesn't feel I don't know. We did there's no way in the world a professional outfit can come in to a new season. No, no, as much as Sam Worsley's done great, Tom Jordan. I don't know if that's his best position.

Club Finances Crowd Growth Hope

SPEAKER_01 46:06

No, I don't I don't know. Okay then, boys. Well, I think we've we've done that to death. Um we've we've reviewed quite extensively a game that we got hammered in and we've kind of had a little think about Gloucester, but I think we'll probably do a preview one next Sunday with maybe a special guest that we were discussing, uh, but we'll come to that. But anyway, Lee, we've got a couple of AOBs, and you've had your uh you've got your calculator out recently and got your little uh you grinch. And you want to mention something about our financial results, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

As a as a person who's had a lot of dealings with HM Morrissey in the past, or not uh I I'm actually I'm gonna say this is this is all from uh Daniel Clark in Bristol Live, but just wanted to mention the the Bears kind of um they've they've had a uh they've reported a pre-tax loss of 5.6 million for the 24-25 financial year. But I want to just say there's there's a I mean you look at that at face value, you think Jesus sounds a lot, doesn't it? We're struggling. But there's a lot of positives. I mean the I wanted to mention the positives, and I think Tom Tainton as well, you know, needs to we need to doff our cap collectively to Tom. Um uh one of it was uh turnover was up six hundred thousand to eleven point one million.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Um from six hundred thousand to eleven point.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

No, no, it was an increase, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and that was literally due to improved match day in merchandise sales and ticket income from obviously the big day out. So I I mean I I do feel like that is the big instigator of that shit. I like that. Absolutely. Um and Tom Taton to quote Tom, we continue to uh embark uh earmark opportunities to grow revenue and reduce I can't even read my own writing costs as we strive for financial sustainability. We have a clear strategy to deliver on these objectives over the next three years, right? So that's good. We all like that's a plan. Sounds good. The average attendance, which I thought was really impressive, increased by about 1400 people to 21,439. Um and that has been driven in part by youth cells, which is I mean, this is this is like how big it is. 17.6% now of the total crowd is um 24 or under, yeah, right, which I thought was pretty impressive. That's our future the highest in the club's history, yep. Right. Um basically the club successful. I feels like I know I am reading this, so I don't you know the club successfully attracted an average of 877 first-time attendees per league game, which is I mean, that's that's good, that's pretty good going. Um I like this as well, the demographic now 32% female and 20% under 24s. That's that's over 50% of the crowd. Yep. And as Miles had just said, you know, that's the future. It's not the old fogies like us lot. Um I think that was it, fellas.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

No, I think that's that's but that's good enough, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 49:52

Well, I mean the rest of it's all negative about the game.

SPEAKER_05 49:55

So is the rest you're right. I mean, that's really encouraging, isn't it? Statistics the young the the demographics are just changing across the board and growing the game and the tendencies. Is it just sadly, is it just suggesting that's the way rugby is going? That's the way rugby union is at the moment, that we are growing the game, we're growing crowd sizes, but the disparity between expense and income is still not there. Um, and and TV rights are still not, they're never going to be the way they are in football, are they? And I don't know how you know Tom is such an innovative, innovative sort of CEO, and we've met him, had him on the pod, and we love his ideas and growing the game, you know, and and things like Big Day Out, which there's been actually this week, there's been quite a lot of press from the RFU no, not the RFU, um from Premier, haven't they? Saying that big day outs in some shape or form are here to stay. We're trying to grow the game, we're trying to grow the the the the crowd base, but the profit margins or losses are not decreasing. And I I can't put my finger on it, but um it's you know, things I mean that's because costs are going up.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Of course. That's your basic, so that's not just players, I mean it's it's utility costs and and stuff now. It's it's interesting you mentioned the big day out because it is clearly here to stay, but you know, that that is something to come back to because I think there's a debatable issue this at the moment. Uh, in the context of it's here to stay. I think after we we touched on it last week, sort of post-match briefly, but I think it's fair to say in a very kind of balanced way that it wasn't as successful this year as it was last year. Now, that's in the context that it will continue, like that is a cast I the club have said it's going to continue, Prem Rugby have said it's gonna continue. But what we need to work with now with the club is to tweak it so it works for everybody, and that's a debate for another time, I think.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

Of course, um, yeah, but but for me, I will just just quickly add that needs to be a a Derby game of some description. I mean, is it the Quinns fans were brilliant, yeah? We all agree that, but to for that to be successful, that needs to have some sort of bite, yeah, and the only way we'll get that is from a Derby game, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

100%, and unfortunately, we don't want it to be Bath because that's the one game that sells out Ashton Gate, and we've we've gone round, but anyway, that I think this is something that we might come back to. Yeah, um, interesting point you say about the young young'uns getting in. I mean, the the good thing about a young'un getting in is the young'un will may well come with their dad. So that's potentially when you get a new kid involved, you're actually getting another adult involved as well, and it's the adult that will buy the beers and whatever. I mean, there are some benefits of having youngsters, they may not get up all the go to the toilet all the time because they can hold their their wee in a bit longer and may not, you know. They say about youngins today they don't drink as much anymore, you know, so they won't be getting up every five minutes. It's not like me, you mean those fringe benefits of getting a younger demographic to get a free shirt, yeah. I think it's all it's all good stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_03 53:04

That's nobody can argue that that's bad news and I actually thought that those figures were really impressive, yeah. Oh, like taking it fair.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

But I do think there's a lot more we can do. I just still think there's a lot more.

SPEAKER_03 53:17

I totally agree. But as Miles said, I think Tom Tainlin he is innovative, he he will he knows he's got a plan, and I I just hope that we kind of we can all get with it, we can all get with the process and the plan, and we can you know, because we all need rugby union to to to reach the pipes, and it is a it is a niche sport compared to football.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

I mean, did you boys see the thing with Jeff Parling last weekend where he punched um I heard he pushed it? He put a pundit over. So no, no, not just not just A punt, it was Craig Doyle, it was royalty. So basically, what happened was the uh Leicester um at the big day out of Gloucester, yeah, Craig Doyle's come on the pitch, he's with a new reporter. I I don't know whether he's a rugby league guy or whatever, and he's like having a bit of a jeep around. It's like have a conversion. So this guy's in his kind of like shoes, turns round, kicks it towards the goal where all the Leicester players are warming up. Craig Doyle's like, Oh, good kick. Jeff Parling comes, walks over. Craig Doyle walks towards him and says, Oh, do you want to sign him? Craig Doyle. Uh Jeff Parling just basically says, Fuck off and pushes him because he's like, You nearly kicked him, you know, basically saying you nearly blew me injured my players. Craig Doyle is an absolute pro, just took it in his stride, said, Oh, he wasn't happy and walked off and talked to Brian and Driscoll. But there was a big media storm about this saying that, yeah, what on one hand, Jeff Parling's right, you've got to protect your players, but no BT, no TNT, no game of rugby. And that Craig Doyle, you know, and and he, I think, you know, is has done a lot for promoting rugby. Yeah, I think that the issue was that that it was an unscripted, quite a lot of this stuff is scripted, it was a kind of unscripted thing that hadn't been passed with the teams. So Jeff Parling was like, Well, you can't just come and do that, but then Jeff Parling kind of apologised afterwards to say he shouldn't have used that language, but he didn't apologise for doing it. And I think the whole debate was, you know, should we be biting the hand that feeds us, or or isn't right? And I think the argument was Craig Doyle, they shouldn't have done the kick, and Jeff Parling shouldn't have reacted. End of story. But it was quite an interesting debate about where rugby sits in this kind of who controls the game. Um, and you know, it would kind of crystallise this thing that the Razmatazz, like we moan about you know, some things we love lookalikey, but we don't like Wave Cam. But this stuff is there for a reason, and it will it's not gonna go away.

SPEAKER_03 55:52

No, I mean ultimately you can see both sides of the story, really, can you? But you know, it's no whipped up as a bit of a media storm, but I guess the fact that that it's unscripted, you'd you'd have to say Jeff Byron was in the right.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

He and I think he he apologised for the way he did it, but he didn't apologize for doing it. And I think Craig Doyle took it in his stride, and I then heard Graham Brian O'Driscoll talking about it, saying Craig Doyle was thrown under the bus by TNT because he'd literally just come onto the pitch and he didn't know, and he and he was kind of almost said, Oh, you know, here's the blood, just give it a kick, and no one told him. Yeah, so yeah, it was it was one of those unfortunate situations, which is quite good because it caused a bit of a debate, and you know.

SPEAKER_03 56:33

I mean, ultimately, we all need each other, aren't we? Because without the players, there's no TNT, so yeah, it's kind of like that.

Losing Joe Jenkins And Squad Spend

SPEAKER_01 56:42

It was it was an interesting thing, but anyway, just a couple of things, finish off. Joe Jenkins.

SPEAKER_03 56:47

Yeah, this is this is really this is a bugbear for for us, isn't it? Yeah, can I can I go for it?

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Miles can follow.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

Right, so we've got a player here who we've brought through the academy, who I think personally is potentially a world-class player, yeah, an international class player, um, and we've lost him, and we've lost him to Leicester Tigers, and can you two fill me in on why we've lost potentially one of the best centres that we could have in the next five years?

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Well, I can tell you, based on the quote that Pat said, was that we didn't offer him as much money as Tigers, we didn't want to leave him. That's what Pat said. It's quoted in the Bristol Post. We didn't want him to go, but we couldn't match Tigers' counter-offer. So we'd offered him something. Tigers had offered him more, and we didn't offer him. It's as simple as that.

SPEAKER_03 57:46

But it's not that simple, is it? Yeah, no. Why don't we offer him more money? Well, that's a good question. And it sorry, Miles, I don't know. No, no, you carry on. It's just led on to another bigger question for me as well. I've loved Stephen Louitua, I think he's been a brilliant player for us, Captain Superman, but he's got another year extension on his contract, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:09

I don't know whether we're gonna get no, no, I think he's he's coming to the end of it. He's the end, he's up this year. Oh, sorry, he's talking about possible year extensions.

SPEAKER_05 58:18

Right. Quoting Stephen, he he thinks he's got another year in him. Yeah, he hasn't coming to the end of his contract, yeah. Um, and we can only imagine we can only guess that he's on quite a fairly good wage, um, you know, and I think his children probably missing their grandparents back in New Zealand. I think quote Stephen Louatua, um, you know, and we would agree he's been a bit injury prone. So this would lead back to you know why we've released a player because we haven't actually seen him play for Bristol, have we? He's been well injury prone, but injury prone at the the time when he's been developed, and potentially we've seen him play, and he's been remarkable. Um and then you know, and let's not beat around the bush. We've lost a flipping good second row to Harlequins, a friend of the pod, James Dunn, because we couldn't match or weren't prepared to match the wage. So, what are we trying to do here? Yeah, we we've said it before, we want to go and play with the big guns against Toulouse and Bordeaux, but we're not willing to pay enough to keep the big players and the big squad. Well, this is a result, other teams are prepared to pay that and we just lose them.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

So, does that mean we we just sign off next season as well then? Well, because that's that's the that's that's how it sounds.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

I mean the argument he said, so so Pat's in the same article said that you know we have Victor Wursnip coming through, so they're looking at Victor Wursnip as the kind of new Joe Jenkins who's been playing for England under 20s, and he did mention Matthias Baroni, and I was thinking, see, that's a bit of a false thing because he was just an injury cover, he was, actually. And actually, are you saying that we're gonna then pay him more than another two years? And he's and he's a 35-year-old and he's a journeyman, and he's a great bloke, but he doesn't really care about Bristol. No, I think the other angle to this is Joe Jenkins is Welsh, though, isn't he? And I think there's this whole English-qualified thing that we haven't, you know, this is a problem that we got to balance. You're supposed to have an average of 50 English players over an average, and he is potentially not going to add to that. And maybe I mean obviously Moroni's not either, but I think he's looking at someone like Victor Wursnip. I mean, Pat, you know, and even he mentioned another guy, Will Moore, or something. So they're you know, looking at the future, it's all well and good, but you're right, it doesn't win us anything at the time, and what we need is a really good centre playing regularly next season. I mean, my only thing I'd say to Joe Jenkins is he's going to a club that's already got a lot of centres, and Orlando Bailey, who went from Bath, a bit like him last year, has now established himself. So Joe Jenkins is going to struggle to get game time at Tigers unless they have a serious injury crisis, because they've got Will Wand, they've got Bailey, they got Parisi, they've got Cater, they've got four centres above Joe ahead of Joe Jenkins, so I'm not 100% sure that was a great career move, but it was definitely obviously a money move.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

And I mean the thing is we I mean it is worrying that we're losing these players financially and or because of financial reasons, but it like it doesn't feel to me like I don't I don't get the like we've got these players coming up so we don't need these players. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

I like if we're gonna win something, it's like a Ponzi scheme, you never actually bloody use them, do you? If you're like you're constantly bringing them through, yeah, and it's like well, hang on, where did everyone go? Yeah, I mean and then it's like Billy Searle, he he ends up at Leicester and he's playing better than everyone. Like we I'd pay money to get him back to Bristol next season.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:03

Absolutely. I mean we don't want to be like the kind of like the the team that brings the academy players through for other sells them on, yeah, yeah, to sell what sell them on to other other places.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

I mean that is the irony. We've rebuilt the whole academy system and it's just starting to produce really good players, but it's providing Leicester and it's providing Orlequins and it's yeah. I mean, obviously, but lo and behold, we we're talking from a position of not a lot of knowledge for this, but it's just the way we are being we are linked to what we read.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:31

We are being jovial, you know, and we're just buying championship players, which we have done clearly for next season at next to nothing, and but they will they will take a year or two to move into that system, won't they? Playing the bears' way and get in, and it's an experiment.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

I just remember Joe Jenkins made his debut against Saracens when we were really short, and he looked so good. Oh, and then I think he might have played that Leinster game in Europe when we were short and he played, and I just thought this is a guy now. Yeah, he had a bad injury, but it's not unusual for people to have injuries. He's obviously fit at the moment, but is that he's not getting in to anyone need more for dings, I think, hasn't he? Then I just I don't know, I don't know, it's a difficult one, and and it and I you know let's play the the devil's advocate. It it balancing the books is not easy in rugby, especially if you've been set a budget, and Pat has to do that. We don't have a clue what's really going on behind the scenes, but you know, recruitment is always ongoing, apparently, but it just seems a bit odd that we're letting good Academy players go.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:34

Well, and also it it does seem a bit odd if if Leicester can pay him, pay Jay Jenkins more money, and he could be their literally fifth choice centre.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:46

I mean interesting, quite worrying, it is a bit really, you know. I think a couple of weeks ago, and maybe even last week, that um let's moving forward to this sort of franchise model and and and and such and then building teams up that there was really talk of teams being penalised if they didn't have a minimum spend in their squad. You probably read that article, same as it, didn't you really? And you know, that's well, if you're not willing to do that, clear off back to the championship. And we, you know, we we don't want any team to in the premiership to go that way, do we? But is that is that what Bristol are trying to do? Spend the sort of bare minimum possible to get a squad in, and that's not gonna win you the Prem, and it's as we've seen, it's not gonna get you anywhere in Europe.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

And actually, I think that's that's a good point, and maybe that is a that's an issue for discussion at another time, I think. Which would be maybe we'd have to try and find some experts to help us give different viewpoints.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:39

But the irony is a lot of Bristol City fans who think Stephen Lansdane look they want Lansdane out because they think that he cares more about the rugby than the football man. Actually, like we've just proven that point isn't valid at all, is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

I'll tell you what, there's a good chance that we'll get Roy Hodgson as our new DOR in about a year's time.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:01

Might get us a win first game.

Football Tangents Small Squad Reality

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Can you imagine? Like, here's a good thought. Like, what football managers of that ilk would be good DORs.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

I got I got one straight away.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:13

Got it, Sean Dyce, because he's an odd bastard. But you see, Roy Roy Hodgson has come in to Bristol City, and sorry to I'm sure there are a few dual listeners here, but this is quite a funny thing. I mean, I watched that press conference, I was fascinated to watch the press conference with Roy Hodgson, which I found a very interesting watch and for other reasons. The CEO was quite weird, I thought. But anyway, like Roy Hodgson said he basically knows nothing about the championship, nothing about the championship, nothing about being a sport director, nothing about Bristol, he knew nothing, but he came in and they won the first game, and he and he came in and he probably did one trading session and thought, well, you look like you should go there, you go there, you go there. And it's like it's almost like like that would be quite funny if you got a I mean I know Gareth Southgate has done a bit of he went into The England World Cup squad once and get a get an old like get a big Sam Allardyce in.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:05

Well, can I just say though, as a City fan, I know we're talking about football now, just really quickly, uh Roy Archon obviously is famous for being the England manager that played uh Harry Kane on corners, yeah. Right, but he uh he did in the first game in charge against Chelten uh play Emile Reese uh taking the throw-ins, the long throw-ins, yeah. So that's the striker, right? So, but for our dual fans, we should say, I mean, Steve Evans has done a great job at Ravers, so maybe Steve Evans might be the DOR for Bristol Bears next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

I mean, I know a little bit about Steve Evans, he was that crawley, he was the Boston or Crawley manager. No, he's a crawley manager, big you and he's lost about six stone, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:49

He looks like a and that was before he got to Ravers.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

I know. Um boys are digressing totally on the wrong shape ball for I know, but it's actually quite interesting to think about what would be a good football man to come into rugby. Um he needs someone's time. Do you think there are any football men out there that know anything about rugby, or are they so not interested?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:09

Stuart Pierce. I think Stuart Pierce is you know uh he's he's done the the rugby union, he's done the rugby league. Yeah, because he's a massive league rugby league fan. Is he? But he's a cop huge, yeah. Yeah, I know, I know. He's from Wheelstone originally.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

I learned talking about Stuart Pierce on the radio today. I was listening to the FA Cup West Ham Leeds, and it was Jonathan Pierce, by Bristolian, Jonathan Pierce from legendary Jonathan. I mean, I've forgotten how fun it is watching him on the radio. And it was him and Cole and um who's the bloke? Carl on call. No, the like the Cotley, the place for Ireland, he played for Crystal Palace, he's hilarious. He's the oh Clinton Morrison. Jonathan Morrison, he's the most makes me laugh. He's just a cliche man through and through. But anyway, Jonathan Pierce and him is a is a bizarre combination, anyway. But Jonathan Pierce said that Stuart Pierce wore the same pair of shin pads in his whole senior career that he wore when he was a kid. No, really. And I just thought, what? That is insane.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:13

Well, especially for some of the tackles he put in.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:16

Well, but that's the sort of man you need in a like in Toulouse, don't you, on a Saturday night? It's like, boys, this is how you do it. You don't muck around. You get your old-fashioned shin pads in, you roll your socks up, and you get stuck in.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:30

I mean, they they were made of Sheffield still, we should say.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:33

It's funny actually, why rugby players don't wear shin pads, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:36

It's like footballers do. Do they? That's the thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:39

No, they don't get booted.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:40

No, I suppose so. Chin shield. Um chin shield. They should get chin shield. But anyway, football. We are really digressed. We are, we're just I feel like I can't be bothered to stop this pod. It's been going on and on. I quite enjoyed it now. Yeah, I've learned so. I reckon at this point we're quite happy if we're the nobody's listening.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:56

This has been really cathartic, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:58

And football for all somebody out there, we've I think that that download from the the reunion islands never come in.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

Do you think Bristol City fans have uh have have remembered that we that under Roy Hodgson we lost to Iceland, didn't we?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:12

Oh biggest cock-up ever, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:15

He wasn't Roy. I mean, as my mate said, that if he had gone to the city north of Bristol in north of Bristol, it would have been Wy of the Wovers.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:24

And that would have been funny.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:26

That would have been good.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

Anyway, fair play to Roy. Like, do you like do you wonder whether they do have little DOR meetups like Pat like can you imagine Pat talking to Roy? Roy would be like, who the hell is this guy talking about cult, talking about this, talking about this, that and the other. Pat would do his thing where he gets someone on a chair and pushes them over, and then he says, and then he picks them up. He says it's harder to pick people up than it is to push them down, all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:53

And there was that, um, there was that thing where I think it was was it Thomas Tuschall? He was watching um England rugby, he was watching a training session, and they were literally smashing bags, and Tutchal was like like all his hands. It was like he was watching a horror movie. It's it was brilliant, you know. But I I do I am really interested in that crossover football men that could be could come into rugby. Yeah. There is a few. There is a few.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

I feel like Eddie Howe is uh is a kind of thinking man's, but kind of doesn't quite hasn't quite got it right. And they've also famously Newcastle are also moaning about injuries, and uh and like and one of the problems they're moaning about because someone someone told me that I think it might be Henry Dickinson. On a he said that the Newcastle have got a smaller squad and they played their players too often, and he's saying this is the trouble with us, this is why we've had a few injuries because of similarities because of our small squad, you know, Rubiolo, Mil Matter, possibly the more susceptible to injuries because they've had to play more games at more higher intensity. I think you could pick that argument apart a little bit, but there is an argument there if your big players are playing more intense games for more minutes, they're more at risk of getting injured.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:14

Well, that's a that's a great segue back into rugby again, isn't it, Miles? Because would we all agree that the smaller squad hasn't really worked for us this season?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:28

I think we have to wait until mathematically we're in the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:31

Mathematically, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:33

And then we can say as. But at the moment we're still mathematically in it, and something may happen, you know, it can happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:41

But as a Wivywood boy, I didn't really ever do maths. So well, yeah. We'll wait and see. We'll wait and see.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:49

Well, I think we've got on the edge. We like literally have lost our last listener from Guadeloupe.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:57

And the curacao person has wandered off, the curacao person has wandered off to have a cup of tea and has thought I was gonna give it another one more shot, and I've never ever seen it again.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:09

He made a fortune for his VPN and now he's like balls to it. I mean bullshit from Brendy.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:17

Anyway, on that note, we haven't we'll say we will try we'll probably do a pod next Sunday to preview Gloucester.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:23

And we we ain't we'll go off in less of a tangent. We ain't we've cheered you up a little bit. Uh bearers to listeners.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:31

I'm gonna have to edit some of this, to be honest. There's a lot I I have to chop out some of this. But anyway, or maybe not, maybe let's let's just let people edit themselves by pressing the pause button. That'll be fine. Anyway, on that note, have a good week, stay safe, and