This bonus episode of Campfire At Home features a panel discussion with Campfire Fellows Rafaella Fiallo and Jason Flamm on Responsibility.
The Campfire Fellows go through rigorous training and coaching provided by Campfire Faculty so they can share their wisdom through story for you. Our Fellows are the people next to you at stoplights or walking by on the street. These Fellows apply or are nominated by people like you, who know interesting and introspective people with some wisdom to share. The Fellows go through a unique process with our team to discover a wealth of wisdom inside themselves and then are trained on how to share the origin stories of their wisdom.
This episode was originally recorded in December 2018 and produced by Andrew Warshauer.
This bonus episode of Campfire At Home features a panel discussion with Campfire Fellows Rafaella Fiallo and Jason Flamm on Responsibility.
The Campfire Fellows go through rigorous training and coaching provided by Campfire Faculty so they can share their wisdom through story for you. Our Fellows are the people next to you at stoplights or walking by on the street. These Fellows apply or are nominated by people like you, who know interesting and introspective people with some wisdom to share. The Fellows go through a unique process with our team to discover a wealth of wisdom inside themselves and then are trained on how to share the origin stories of their wisdom.
This episode was originally recorded in December 2018 and produced by Andrew Warshauer.
Steven Harowitz: 0:06
Hello, Internet. I'm Steven Harowitz, the Director of Campfire, and you are listening to Campfire at Home. That's our way of bringing the live experience to you, whether that be listening and reflecting by yourself or experiencing it with friends. Each Campfire invites listeners into discussions about life and how we live it. Before we get too deep into Campfire at Home, I want to share a few opportunities for you to get involved beyond our live show. We offer classes and workshops on public speaking, story construction and group facilitation to answer the big questions in your life or your work. If you or your organization are interested, you can visit cmpfr.com. That's c m p f r dot com. For the episode you're about to hear, we caught up with our Season 7 Fellows, Rafaella and Jason, to dig just a little bit deeper into their thoughts on responsibility and the experience of telling a personal narrative on stage. And if you haven't yet, be sure to listen to their episodes where they answer the question, do we choose responsibility?
Steven Harowitz: 1:08
What would be interesting, and I got kind of front row seats to this, which was neat to watch you process through, was why did you pick the question you picked? Why responsibility? Why about choice when it comes responsibility?
Jason Flamm: 1:23
So one thing I noticed between me and Rafaella as we're going through the process is that we started, we started having these conversations about, uh, our experiences growing up. And even though we grew up in two completely different areas, in parts of the country, we both started to notice this natural theme of responsibility. And we both kind of have these parallels in our life where we were kind of, we had to be the more responsible one in the family. And so as we're having these conversations and we just kept telling more and more stories, I think the idea of responsibility just kept coming back. And we had thrown around different ideas that, you know, there were, there were two or three questions that we both really latched onto. Ah, but that was the one that just consistently came up, over and over again. And so when we actually formed that question, it was kind of like a, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense." Like it wasn't a surprise that that ended up being what we, what we, what we landed on.
Steven Harowitz: 2:20
Was it surprising to you when that first started popping up? So it wasn't surprising in the end when that made sense. Were were you surprised that that was the central focus in the beginning part of that conversation?
Rafaella Fiallo: 2:31
No, like, it it seemed, uh, just very relevant because, um, it was just so clear in experiences, in our childhood, in our adolescence, in our adult in our adult lives. So the thing I think that was interesting to me is how many different ways we started to look at responsibility instead. Oh, why responsibility?
Steven Harowitz: 3:46
Yeah, was there something specific to how that question was phrased? Because it was around choice around responsibility. There were a number of ways that could have been structured. Why that way?
Jason Flamm: 3:46
By the way, uh, I found it interesting that neither one of us, like, looked at responsibility like initially, it was like, "Oh, we didn't have a choice. " That's just who we are. Like we did, we also had a lot of discussions around identity. So, like who we are as people as adults. Who we were, as you know, adolescents. And so I think, in those identity discussions that idea of we are just responsible people really formed at that question of do we choose responsibility? Because it then it was like, "Oh, wait, did we make this choice at some point? Or was it was it always who we were?" You know, like, it's kind of that nature versus nurture question.
Rafaella Fiallo: 3:47
And it seemed like we had the question, and we had the answer for ourselves already, like, "Oh, I already know what I think about this. I'm just going to share it with everyone and see what they think," and then it started to change a little bit of both of us.
Steven Harowitz: 4:02
What was the trigger that made you go, "Oh, we already have the answer for this"?Was it, just once you had a question, or was it once you started talking about your stories?
Rafaella Fiallo: 4:09
I think it was as we talked about our stories to find a question we knew because this is that experience. This is our answer. Yeah.
Jason Flamm: 4:18
Yeah, I mean, internally, too. I was a little concerned. Doesn't like, oh, it, I mean, if we both have the same answer, that's gonna boring, right? What's good about Campfire, and the entire process, is you do have to, like, think about things just a little bit more than maybe you do in everyday life.
Rafaella Fiallo: 0:00
Exactly.
Steven Harowitz: 4:33
Do you feel like there're any misunderstandings about responsibility, whether that was inside of this experience for you or even what you are hearing from the audience after your Campfire?
Rafaella Fiallo: 4:43
Mmm, I wouldn't say misunderstandings. But I think there's so much room for us to expound on responsibility within ourselves, as opposed to how does it look if we are responsible for other people? Because, you know now is the movement where we talk about self-care and self-love, and everyone is trying to make sure they prioritize themselves and trying to figure out what selfish means to them, it looks like for them. So I think that is an interesting way to really start having the conversation. Because as we talked about responsibility and what that meant as being the oldest child in our family and what that looked like and how people looked at us for everything, the end part of it was like we forgot about ourselves. We have to prioritize ourselves. So I think that that's what we're moving towards.
Jason Flamm: 5:28
Yeah, and I mean, I thought it was interesting too hearing in all the different answers that the audience had at at our discussions. Um, and I think if there is a misconception, or maybe not quite an understanding, I think people naturally think that everyone has a similar level of responsibility or that they should have this certain level of responsibility. And maybe that's not the case. You know, you think about people. You you develop skills over time, and usually your skills are developed according to your environment or what situations you put yourself into. So if you take, take a step back and think about our question of, do you choose responsibility? And then even me and Rafaella's experience of like we, you know, early on we were put into situations where we had to be the responsible one. You know, it's not really fair to then look at maybe our younger siblings or other people and say they never had to develop those skills because they never had to be that person. But then, as adults, we're looking at them and say, "Why aren't you more responsible?". You know, and maybe that's just not fair, because if you do look it as a skill as opposed to a God-given gift or, you know, what, however, you want to look at it, as an innate ability. You know, when you start to look at it as a skill and as a choice, I think it does change that narrative a little bit and say, "Oh, yeah, sure, they're 25. But that 25-year-old didn't go through the same thing that that 25-year-old went through." So, of course, that one's way more responsible responsible than the other one is, and I, I think that's okay.
Steven Harowitz: 6:57
Yeah, let's do a little bit of a recap of your first recollection of responsibility, which I know is kind of also baked in your CampfireI love it. But if you could if you give me a little summary of what that was for you, and we can start with Rafaella and then we'll go to Jason.
Rafaella Fiallo: 7:13
Um so I had mentioned it a little bit, but I'm the oldest of four children. Um, but my first memory of responsibility was when there was only three of us at the time. And it, this story is so funny to me. Um and we were outside, just, you know, I was managing everything as the oldest child and my my youngest brother's head gets stuck in like the gate, and it's kinda, it's kind of funny because, um, over Thanksgiving, not over Thanksgiving. That's a lie. I went home and I asked my brother if you remember this, and he said he did.
Steven Harowitz: 8:00
What, what was his recollection?
Jason Flamm: 8:02
Yeah. Does he blame you for it?
Rafaella Fiallo: 8:04
Not at all. He really looked at me like I saved the day. And then this went into a conversation where my other brother, who was right after me, like they both start exchanging stories about how I protected them, how I would like yell at other kids and how I was just like the best big sister and I wasn't to be, you know, messed around with. So I was like, "Yeah, exactly. That was my role." I'm glad you know.
Steven Harowitz: 0:00
That's awesome. Great, Jason.
Jason Flamm: 0:00
In my Campfire, I led with the story about how in third grade or in second grade, I became the leader of the dinosaur table and, you know, you look at that and I have to imagine some form of like, "Oh, if I'm good, if I make my teachers happy and proud, I get to do these special things that no one else gets to do." And I think that was really that revelation of like, "Oh, if I do this, I get a reward," and my reward, looking, you know, 30 years ago, I could look back and say, "Oh, my, my reward was responsibility." What a weird thing to like want, you know. Like, yeah, I want to be in charge of everything, so let me be the teacher's pet and do all my work really quickly. But that means essentially, that's what it was. And you know it, yeah, and it's funny you mention brothers. So my brothers came to my Campfire together, so we spoke a little bit afterward, and I have one brother who's two years younger than I am, and I have another one who's six years younger than I am. So my brother, who's six years younger, had never heard a lot of my stories before, which is kind of crazy to think about because we grew up in the same house. You know, when you would think, "Oh, everything I know he knows too," but that's not the case. He's six years behind. And so he's not gonna you know, when he was five I'm 11, I can remember a lot more things than he probably can. Um so when I'm six, he's not even born yet, you know? So unless we make a point to tell each other those stories, he has, he has no reason to know that about me. And then my other brother, the one that's two years younger, he actually came through the same school, had the same teacher. And what I didn't say in my Campfire was that he when he had that same teacher, he was the one who lost all the dinosaurs. So I was in charge of safe safety of the dinosaurs, and he purposely, like, destroyed them all, ah, which is a good, like indication early on of like, who, who the two of us were growing up. Uh, and funny enough, he has two kids now, and I don't have any so. Yeah, whatever.
Steven Harowitz: 10:42
Was there anything that you heard from the audience during your Campfires or even maybe after if people came up to on the topic of responsibility? Is there anything that popped out of that?
Jason Flamm: 10:53
I was surprised at all the people at the end who raised their hand and kind of said, "Oh, actually, what you, everything you just said kind of changed my opinion a little bit." I wasn't, and I I try to make this very clear, I wasn't trying to change anyone's opinion by the things I said. It was just more or less another way of looking at it. And I think what was great about them admitting that they had changed their answer is that that that's really a good indication of the process like we went through. You know, I hopefully, what, what my talk did was show a little bit of that process of just thinking a little bit deeper, which me and Rafaella had to do, um but we got to have this audience kind of go through it too. And just by thinking a little bit deeper and looking at things from other sides, people were able to say, "Oh, wait, I hadn't even considered that side of it before. Let me kind of reevaluate the situation."
Rafaella Fiallo: 11:49
So when I think back on it, I don't have an example for after the Campfire. But during the Campfire, there was a section where I asked people to reflect on their own experiences and gave them opportunity to share. And someone did share about how, I remember this distinctly because I had a similar situation happen to me, where they overslept for an interview, for something I mean, and they were like, really beat themselves up about it. And they had been sick and they had experienced a death or a loss of some kind. And, you know, they just had to take a step back to realize like I needed any of that sleep for a reason. Like there's something going on. So I think for me, it's just like again realizing that sometimes we prioritize, even if, like all those things were for them, you know, they were being the best of the best, doing these clubs and organizations. So all things that they felt that they needed for maybe, like resume-building and career development, personal development, whatever the case is. But if you are not taking care of yourself like your physical self, then you're really not gonna be the best at anything or for anyone. So I really like that they they took a second to not only think about that, but then to share that with the larger audience because it was really vulnerable as well. It's just something that I remember.
Steven Harowitz: 13:07
I'm interested to know. So you, when you formulated this question, it wasn't necessarily surprising. You felt like you knew the answer, right? Then you get into with this whole process. Then you spew it out loud to a group of folks. They give you some feedback or some responses during that talk. Has that changed how you view responsibility at all, especially with a little bit of time between that experience and now?
Rafaella Fiallo: 13:27
This doesn't really answer your question, but that's just how I am. Um, you know, when we first settled on the question, I was not happy, you know? I was like, "Man." I was listening to, you know, all the other questions that people had, And I was like, "Man, the question is just so like." Maybe because we already had our answers, you know? And I was just like, "Oh, I know my answer. It's not that exciting, not that fun. Why did we choose this?" Um, and now, looking back on it, I had so so much growth answering this question and telling my friends and family about the whole process of Campfire. I'm like, I can't even think of a better question, um, and so, yeah, that's just one of the same. So it's like, trust the process, go through the journey. Because even when you feel like something's not for you or maybe not benefit you, there's still something that's gonna come out of it. So yeah.
Jason Flamm: 14:17
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I also, I wasn't disappointed, but there was another question that I liked a little bit more, and it was more around that identity piece. A couple of days before we had, like we knew what the options were. I was talking to my now in-laws. They're my future in-laws back then, way back then. Ah, I was talking to them. And I was getting really excited about the chance of it being about identity because I have my own personal thoughts about identity. I don't think it's talked about a lot, um, and then when it came back responsibility, and they're like, "Oh, which question did it end up being?" And I'm like, "Oh, it was the one on responsibility," and I was, like, kind of this like, "Oh, wait. Just spent the entire weekend talking about something else." So it I don't want to say this point because that sounds strong, but certainly I was like, uh, okay, let's let's visit this. And and then it was this opportunity for growth that I had no idea what was going to happen, and it was a lot of discovery. Um, and it's something I go through sometimes. Uh, you know, you talk about trust in the process. That's 100% true. No matter, no matter what it is. You know, I, um I am very open with the people around me that I talk to a therapist every once in a while. I think it's it's just good, you know, to have that person to talk to. And sometimes I'll schedule an appointment, even though I don't, air quotes, need one, right? I'm not really going through anything. And as the as the appointment approaches, I think, "Man, what am I even gonna talk about?" Like everything's fine, nothing's really happening. But then as soon as we start talking, something comes up inevitably. And a lot of times, those are the most rewarding sessions because I didn't come in with any expectations. You know, I didn't come in going 100 miles an hour. I want to be like, "You can't believe what this person did to me." You know, that's a weird thing to talk about with your therapist. Yeah, very accurate. Um, but, you know, if you're open in those moments, maybe more so than if you did have that, like, agenda to get across. And I think the fact that we did have that answer quickly maybe in a weird way that made us more open, you know, because now it's, like, prove us wrong. Then I think we were both proven wrong pretty quickly. Not wrong in our answer, but wrong in like what we thought this was gonna be.
Rafaella Fiallo: 16:41
Right. Yeah. I like that.
Steven Harowitz: 16:43
The process that you both went through helped because when I shared with my family what the question was, my mom, who's pretty cut and dry was like, "That's easy. Like, of course you should know. That's a thing." I was like, "Well, actually." I added in the nuances from the conversation that we had in your talks. It was a very lovely dialogue. It was actually really helpful. I don't know if necessarily again not trying to sway her answer, but more so being like there's layers to this. It's not. Yeah, it's not as clear cut as clear cut as you think.
Rafaella Fiallo: 17:12
Yeah, even though it's like yes or no question. But the we're like, that's not gonna be the answer.
Rafaella Fiallo: 0:00
Yeah, even though it's like yes or no question. But the we're like, that's not gonna be the answer.
Steven Harowitz: 18:08
It was like yes. Not and. It was like yes, but here's some things you need to think about. If you had to give advice to the next group of Fellows as they're picking their question, what would you tell them?
Jason Flamm: 18:08
I think be patient. Have conversations. Figure out who you're what, what, what your different stories are. Like, start, start talking, you know, and just see what starts to develop. What words are you using over and over again, you know?And I think that's where me and Rafaella really clicked and why it seems so natural. And we I mean, I don't know, I guess I'm not Steven, but I feel like we were pretty easy to deal with, and maybe it's because we were having those conversations before we ever said, "Oh, shoot. What's our question? We gotta answer this right now. What are we gonna do?" Like, let it come instead of trying to make something fit.
Rafaella Fiallo: 0:00
Listen to the other Campfires and visit a few. Yeah, that really helped me um, like, knock down my own idea what I should be doing or what I thought it was supposed to look like because there was so many examples of questions, responses. Um, so, yeah, definitely do that. That way you don't have to feel like you're not doing it right.
Steven Harowitz: 18:41
When I want to come back to something you talked about earlier. So you wanted to do the identity question? Did you want to do, what was the one you wanted to do? Do you remember?
Rafaella Fiallo: 18:45
I think, no, I don't remember at all. It was just that it was just that that question was like, "Man, this is a yes or no question. It's really straightforward. I already know what I want to say, and we have similar answers, and this is not gonna be," but oh, my gosh.
Jason Flamm: 19:02
Maybe that was it. Maybe it was because you felt like it was a yes or no question. Whereas the one around identity, if I were being, yeah, it was more like, ah, it was something about how does our identity shape who we are? Something like, you know, so it's a more how question, does or do.
Steven Harowitz: 19:21
When you're, so, Jason, yours is out now. Rafaella, yours is coming out soon. Let's say your family or friends listen to it, and they want to have a conversation with you about your stories and responsibility. What do you think they're gonna ask you about? I want to know more about...
Jason Flamm: 19:36
I'm trying to think of anyone has, like, reached out and said like, "Hey, tell me more about this?" It's been more along the lines of like, "Oh, man, I had no idea." You know, or you know, I my brothers didn't listen to the podcast, but they were there. So, you know, one brother was like, "Man, when you were telling that, like, it took me back." You know, it made, because they were there, you know? And they were younger than I was, but they were, they were certainly there. And so it does bring back that flood of emotions on. And I have, um, I it's really interesting because I talk a little bit about my half, one of my half brothers. Ah, and he's the person I called, you know, during one of my incidents, that of the stories that I tell about and we've never necessarily had a discussion about that day. But him hearing one side of the story whereas he was on the other side of the story is very interesting. You know, he had no idea what we were going through. He just got a weird phone call one day, you know, and and to hear the rest of that and one thing that actually, one thing that has happened, my half-sister, who I haven't spoken to in 20 plus years, uh, she messaged me on Facebook recently, and she had messaged me a couple of years ago, but nothing ever came of. It was just like, "Hey, uh, we both exist," right? Whereas this one was more like, "Man, I listened to your podcast. I listened to that Campfire talk. I I went back and read some of your stuff in your stories." And, you know, it opened up this dialogue that we had never had before, so that was very interesting. Um, it seems like that could be a continuing conversation. Ah, but yeah, I think it shows the power of just having these open dialogues. The power of Campfire and the stories getting out is that you do get to just, like, connect with with someone and maybe it's someone close. Maybe it's, maybe it's a stranger. Some of my friends have never heard, you know, while they never heard any of those stories specifically, but certainly they know who I am. You know, they were co-workers for a couple years, but they never heard those specific stories, so then they're relating, "Oh, my brother is kind of going through a similar situation that you were during this time," you know? Yeah. And so and so.
Rafaella Fiallo: 21:55
Um, this is what I hope. So, um, I hope that the people, specifically my family, when they listen to it, I hope that they just take it as opportunity to investigate their own lives, their own thoughts, and do a little bit more of interrogation around those things. Um, because I would say my family's pretty open in the sense that if someone asks a question, we'll try to give you answer, but I want them to go beyond that. Like, why is that your answer? Why do you think this? Why do you, why did you behave this way? Um because, as we know, a lot of families have secrets to, have all these different things that's hiding. That is intentional, right? So I'm just hoping that some of that comes out a little bit more so that we can all continue on, like, you know, a healing journey, one of exploration and just feeling better. Um, yeah, I'm open to all questions. They know that, like I said, during, when I went home to visit, it came up. So there's really not much. It's just I just hope they use it for their own benefit.
Jason Flamm: 23:01
Yeah, and I can tell you one fear I did have of having the talk, doing the Campfire talk and then even with the podcast, and I remember early on in the early days of the Campfire process, other people expressing because we had a class beyond just me and Rafaella to start, um, other people expressing a similar fear, is that when we tell our stories, getting called out on it by someone who maybe lived parallel with us and would say, like, "That's not how it happened," or, "That's not your story to tell. And I remember being on stage and seeing my brothers and being very conscious of the words that were coming out of my mouth because then I became concerned that they were judging me and saying, "Why are you telling this story? You had the easy end." You know, all these thoughts start going through your head. And when stuff like that comes out publicly, there is this concern of like, is this really my story to tell? Are people going to think that I'm just trying to, like, get attention, be the victim? Uh, and because that was a concern that was addressed very early on, I think we were able to shape our stories in a way that that that's not how it came out. You know, we got to practice and talk through these things very openly within ourselves and because we had those discussions early on. Nobody has pointed a finger at me since it's come out and said, "Who gives you? You know what gives you the right to even say any of this?" And that's been quite the relief personally.
Rafaella Fiallo: 24:41
I can imagine. I think one thing that's so important because all of our stories build off of one another. Um, but specifically, like, sometimes you think, Well, why, as a young person, why did you have all this responsibility? What was going on in your household? Where were the parents? You know all this other stuff, and its looks like, there is a concern sometimes where you don't work with a lot of people who have experienced abuse, who've experienced neglect, who had parents, um, disappear or they've been removed from the home for drugs, like all these other things. And you're telling their stories. But it's just like, "Well, how does this, how will this make my parents look? What would you think less of them because of this experience that I'm sharing? So I think it is a fine line to try to figure out hey, like, how can we How can I do the healing that I need to do by exploring the story? And you know, what is my response? What responsibility, what responsibility do I have to safeguard the information or to protect others and their feelings, their identity, how people perceive them if I share this story.
Steven Harowitz: 25:38
That could be some of the harder choices. I think there's been a lot of things that have, for lack of a better phrase, hit the cutting room floor because of things like that. Where this is something that I experienced or I lived, but it's just not ready for this type of sharing, and so they've chosen not to. And that could be really hard because it's part of identity building. It's part of that narrative. But you also have to have that second step to this of I'm ready to talk about it. And I I feel comfortable with whatever comes of that choice.
Jason Flamm: 26:06
Yeah, and realizing that even though you're ready to talk about it and someone else might not be, so let's not call them out. Yeah, yeah, put them in an uncomfortable position that they're not even prepared for.
Steven Harowitz: 26:17
So I do want to take that opportunity and shift just a little bit. Because I'm interested to talk more from the storytelling public speaking lens of this experience and to ask you just at a top level, what's something that you learned about public speaking, whether it be through the training or, you know, giving a 40 minute keynote about your life basically?
Rafaella Fiallo: 26:35
It's not as bad. Um, you know, um, so during during the class, we talked about the arc, the human's journey and all these other things. And I remember during the bigger class, like, okay, I'm taking these notes and, you know, you get all these examples and one of my friends who are also in things, they they're really into it. They're always, like we watch a movie and she'd say, "Oh, there goes the arc." I'm like, "What are you talking about? I don't see any of that." You know, um, so after my Campfire, they came up to me, you know, to congratulate, you know that stuff. But they told they saw the arc. And then they told me about it. Like I did not even write it that way. But it's just like, you know, the information it was, it stuck with me. I applied it in some way. Maybe I'm just like a storyteller, and it just came out naturally, but I think that's the thing. It's like again, don't be so hard on yourself. There's so many things that's going on where you just have to continue to show yourself grace. Be patient with yourself. Be positive as much as you can, because the point is to get the message out there, to tell a story. And if you forget something, nobody knows. Nobody will know that you forgot a part. You can weave it back in there later if you need to. And I think that really helps too. It's just like, take it easy. We're up here just having a good time. Um, so, yeah, I think that's the biggest thing for me.
Jason Flamm: 28:08
Yeah, it's very easy to be very hard on yourself, especially in the early days when you're this, you have this daunting task ahead of you. You think, how am I gonna blow this?
Steven Harowitz: 28:27
That's such a heavy question to ask yourself.
Jason Flamm: 28:27
It is. But I think that does. People are nervous generally about looking bad. They don't want to look stupid, right? And I think that prevents a lot of people from speaking up, a lot of people from thinking, "Oh, I I can't tell a story or I can't be a storyteller," right? "Who am I," right? And beyond that, the technical part of it, well, I don't even know where to start. How would I, How would I start this? And when you, I mean Rafaella, what Rafaella just said is a great example of you learned the technical side so that when you're doing it, it just comes naturally. You've done it enough where it's it's flowing in there, you know? And I think about someone who does write screenplays or a screenwriter. They're not sitting down and saying, "OK, now this is this part, this part, this part," No, they start with a story. They start with, ah, situation, you know, and you start to fill those in. And once you do that enough times, it really helps you feel comfortable. You know, if you're a baseball player, you don't think about, "Oh, I need to hold my elbow, elbow up. I need to lean into it. I need to twist my hips." No, you you've done that. So now you just hit the ball, and the what, the thing I learned through this process was swing, you know, and just try to hit the ball. Um, and maybe, I don't know, bring in sports, and all of a sudden I think this is a really great idea.
Rafaella Fiallo: 29:48
But but it definitely fits because it made me think of something. Practice. I think the thing that got in my own way was like, it's my life. It's my story. I know what happened, so I can just do it. And that wasn't going too well, so I said, "You know what? I'm actually just gonna sit out here, and I'm going to read it over and over again. I'm going to practice in the mirror. I'm going to ask people to listen," and it just happens. I think it's okay like this. I think sometimes we're so used to just doing things by the wind, especially if you're kind of good at it. Like I've done, uh, workshops. I've done speaking things, you know? So just like I was gonna do this. And I know this information. It's like easy, so yeah, just like it's okay. And then, like, the more that you talk, talk it out to yourself and re-read it and go through it, it just gets better and better and better. And then I started to, like, memorize things, and you wouldn't have to think that you have to memorize your own life, your own story, but I mean, it just came and I was just like, all right, I got this. Like, I'm not as nervous because I know what I'm gonna say. Uh, practice, practice makes perfect. People have been saying that for how long. So when you have the example, would, just sports, like you have to go practice. Yes. There's still some people out there who are naturally gifted in sports, whatever the cases. But they still practice. There's things that we all have to fine tune. So we have to remember that. Yeah.
Jason Flamm: 31:03
I was shook with how emotionally distraught I was right before my talk.
Steven Harowitz: 31:09
I was gonna ask a question about that actually. It's a great shift here. So I I open these shows and every time before, I wouldn't say my heart's leaping out of my chest, but it races cause, you know, you're about to get up in front of people and what it feels like for me and what I've seen in others is that first little bit still that heart racing. But then there's a moment of I don't know if it's calmness that washes over or just settling in. Did y'all experience that?
Rafaella Fiallo: 31:36
Yeah.
Steven Harowitz: 31:37
What, at what moment did you feel like you settled in?
Rafaella Fiallo: 31:41
Um, at the beginning. Like when I came. I always do something to kind of break my nerves. So I came in, like what I'm saying, get all my laughs out. I'll make everyone everyone else laugh. Um, what's that called the Fourth Wall? Yeah, I learned. I learned, um and so to me, that was a great introduction of, like, my personality and also like, this is a space to laugh, um, and to just be yourself. So I think that really helped me calm down a lot. And then, of course, over time, it's just like I'm gonna be up here. They know I'm gonna be up here. I can't do anything about it. Like I could walk off the stage, but that's not good.
Steven Harowitz: 32:16
That would be irresponsible.
Rafaella Fiallo: 32:17
We joked about that, sneak out the back door. Um, I think, just taking it that way. Like I have this thing and I'm going to do it. And how can I just kind of break the, break the ice a little bit? Um, yeah, it was good.
Jason Flamm: 32:33
Ah, I honestly never settled in. And I think that's what shook me, because I I also I've done plenty of public speaking, and I teach improv classes. I teach sketch classes. I've been in front of groups of people. I I present for clients at work, and I usually have that experience, you know, right before I get anxious, and people think, "Oh, you know, I have anxiety so I could never get up there and talk." We have anxiety too, like we have. We get anxious. It's not about, you know, us not having that. It's about you just have to overcome it for the moment. And so a lot of times what happens is right before I go to teach a class or, you know, get up to speak, I'm like, hating myself. Like, why did I do this? Why am I even putting myself in this position? But I keep doing it over and over again because inevitably, as soon as I start talking, the nerves go away. Now it's game time. That never happened at my Campfire. Instead, the entire time I'm speaking, I'm thinking, "Don't touch the microphone because you're gonna make a weird sound, and the mic producer guy is gonna hate you. Don't look at your brothers because they're probably going to say something. Uh now one of my brothers is whispering in the other one's ear." Like I could see the entire audience. Oh, a bunch of co-workers and friends came. Like all these thoughts are going through my head as I'm, words are coming out of my mouth. And so I never, even even during the breaks, I would walk over to Steven, and he'd be like, "How you feeling?" I'm like, "This is awful, right?" And I had whiskey on stage with me, like I was doing everything I could to, like, get comfortable, and I never got to that point, and that was such a weird experience for me. And I appreciate it, though. And what I appreciate more is the fact that because I had put myself in uncomfortable positions so many times, I knew that the worst case scenario is that I'd get off stage and people are like, "Well, that was crap." You know, right, like whatever. But I also knew from experience that people were probably gonna like go, "Dude, that was really cool. You did a great job." And sure enough, as soon as I get off stage, my brother's like, "Dude, there's no way I could have ever done that." Other people are like, "That, dude, that was amazing." High fives, hugs, whatever. And then when my podcast released, and I listened to it, the dialogue going on in my head, can't even tell. Can't even tell. Isn't that wild? It is. It is. And I was actually, like, damn, damn. All that. And then it turned out good, fine, yeah.
Rafaella Fiallo: 35:23
Yeah, I think, um, it's different when it's about you, you know? So you're going up there doing your thing. You're presenting to the clients about work. You tell, you know, all this other stuff, and then you're on stage talking about your personal life, um, which for someone like me was very private. It's just like I can't. But like I still, I'm like, I can't believe you told people my business. You know, even though I'm in the work that I do like, I'm a clinical social worker, therapist, and educator. So I do, you know, say tidbits about myself as we're, you know, creating space, making it safe, letting people know it's okay to share their stories. But this was different. Um, but yes. Oh, I I think about listening to my story and the podcast, and I'm like [inaudible.] This time. next year.
Jason Flamm: 36:12
Ten years from now, you'll be like, oh, that was pretty good.
Rafaella Fiallo: 36:16
Yeah. You gotta listen to your voice and all this other stuff.
Steven Harowitz: 36:16
So at the back end, what did it feel like when you're done?
Rafaella Fiallo: 36:22
Relief? What? I was so happy that I finished, that I made it, that people like I didn't confuse people or people just didn't have, like, that glazed look like, "What?". No one walked out, right? Um and then, of course, having friends sitting up in the front to see their face and telling me like, "Wow," basically what you just said, Jason. Um, but I was definitely glad that I was no longer on the stage. As soon as I sat down in the chair, I'm like "Alright."
Jason Flamm: 36:54
Yeah, relief is definite. It literally is like a wave of relief and just a weight falls off your back. And you have that carrying, you're carrying around that for the weeks leading up to it. Like me and Steven were having text messages. You know, he was like, "Hey, man, how you feeling?" I'm sending back like, puke emojis. Yeah.
Steven Harowitz: 37:15
Yeah, I took that in stride.
Jason Flamm: 37:17
He knows better.
Rafaella Fiallo: 37:19
Even like sitting in the back. I was just like, I remember joking with you, and I when I was back there, the same thing. I could just leave right now. No one would know until it's time. Can let my friends like it was canceled. It'll be rescheduled.
Steven Harowitz: 37:33
So glad that I wasn't around there because it would be really hard for me to hold that in. I would have tried it. Been like, yeah, I hear you. Sure, yeah.
Rafaella Fiallo: 37:38
There's a door, right here. Um, yeah. These are all real thoughts. Yeah, but I was like, you know, I don't wanna I don't wanna be that person, you know? I didn't.
Jason Flamm: 37:52
Okay, You're lucky we like you, Steven.
Steven Harowitz: 37:54
Thank you. It's very kind. Was there, And this is, I think, one of my last questions. What did you do to celebrate? Maybe that night. Do you just go to bed? You go buy a drink? What did you do?
Rafaella Fiallo: 38:06
Um, when I left, one of my friends actually from, um, with this they didn't come in town for this, but they happened to be in town for work, and they did come out. So I had the opportunity of bridging some other friendships from different lifetimes. And so we went out to Mission Taco and had tacos and talked about it. We actually talked about Campfire, of course. And some of the people talked about some of their own things. But yeah, that's how we celebrated. And it felt good because everyone was there for me telling me, and I kept, kept asking, "Are you sure? Are you sure your really liked it?" Oh, my gosh, I can't believe it. Like not because you're my friend, right? You know, I really was looking for that. I still couldn't believe it. You know, you're so fresh, but yeah, that's how it celebrated was eating with friends.
Jason Flamm: 38:53
I did not celebrate it. I kind of mentally beat myself up all night because of how how uncomfortable I knew I was throughout it, and part of me was like, "You didn't prepare enough. You should have written everything down. Like they're things you could have done instead." And I, that happens to me after every show, every presentation, everything. I know that's part of my process. Because then the next day I woke up and like everything's fine. Yeah, everything's fine. Um, but yeah, that was kind of my experience. I drove home alone, cranked up some music, went through everything in my head. What could I have done better? What'd I do that was terrible? How I'll do better next time? Does Steven hate me?
Steven Harowitz: 39:38
I didn't, nor do I now. We're good.
Jason Flamm: 39:41
Thank you for telling me that. You know, because even up until this moment, I'm, like, quite a question mark.
Rafaella Fiallo: 39:45
Honestly, Like, there's still things from the Campfire where like I should've said it this way, I shouldn't have left this out. I forgot this part. How could I forget that part? And now they're missing and they didn't even know. Um, so, yeah, I mean, that's just real. Like you said, for next time, if if ever we have this same story to tell. Yeah, we know exactly how to how to correct it.
Steven Harowitz: 0:00
Or even just having to tell a personal story again in front of people. I think you'll be that much stronger.
Steven Harowitz: 40:13
I'm gonna get all the Fellows back together. We're gonna do a Canadian tour. A lot of small venues, real into it stuff.
Rafaella Fiallo: 40:20
Depending on the time period. I mean.
Jason Flamm: 40:23
Look at you, umping into it.
Steven Harowitz: 40:25
That's recorded.
Jason Flamm: 40:26
Yeah, that's a verbal agreement.
Jason Flamm: 40:29
Ah, those are all my questions. Is there anything else from that experience whether it's about the question or about the public speaking part of it that you think would be important for us to know?
Jason Flamm: 40:39
I I just want to encourage anyone who is at all on the fence about doing it, just do it. I mean, it sounds stupid. It's a cliche. It's a slogan for Nike. Just does it. We'll change it up a little bit. Um, no, it like it's scary. You know, it wasn't any less scary for us. It truly was not. We're not these special people that like don't know what anxiety is like. So if you're at all interested, like trust the process, Steven will take care of you. The entire staff will take care of you. They're all good people. They've done this so many times. That process is really locked down. Um, and by the time you know, from from you get when you go from A to Z, you're not just gonna have to jump a bunch of letters. They're going to take you there one letter at a time and at your own pace. And they're gonna let you dictate what you're comfortable doing.
Rafaella Fiallo: 41:38
Ditto all of that. Again, I want to reiterate, um, go to a Campfire. Listen to the podcast. They're a bunch of other storytelling events that are probably happening in your community and online and on podcasts. So just start to explore the possibility by listening to other people who are taking the opportunity. Um, and then write. Just write, write, write as much you can. I'm really big on journaling as a healing tool. So if you're not ready to speak it, maybe you can write it a little bit and then go from there. I know my personal experience. I talked a little bit about, um, poetry. So that's something that I did a lot while I was going through everything that I was going through, and then one day, like they had open mic night in my community, at college and at my college. And I used to go and I used to sit there like I have something to say and, you know, I can do this. And I I had no pressure. I would have my book out and I would read it. I wasn't trying to memorize it and all that. And then I got to the point where I'm like, okay, now memorize. I'm gonna do these pieces. So, like, exposure, you just expose yourself as much as possible of the people doing the thing that you're interested in.
Steven Harowitz: 42:43
That's great. And I wanted to say I really enjoyed the latest Campfire. The four, was a four or five? Yeah, the showcase. I thought they did a fantastic job. They were strong. They all have, they all have their own individual stories, and they were so different from from each other. I really, really enjoyed that. So I hope that comes back. And I assume that's gonna be an episode as well. So if you skipped that episode and now you're listening to us ramble on, uh, go back and listen to that episode because it really was really, really really really great.
Steven Harowitz: 43:18
Well, y'all spurned that. So that question informed what we talked about in that class. You took part. They didn't know you maybe, but you were part of a it. Well, thank you for taking part. Thank you for your time. And it was a pleasure to work with both.
Rafaella Fiallo: 43:39
Thank you so much.
Jason Flamm: 43:40
Thank you. No, this is great.
Steven Harowitz: 43:42
And that's a wrap. I like to think Rafaella and Jason for coming into the studio to talk about responsibility and storytelling. Stay tuned for some shorter episodes with our Intro to Storytelling graduates as we prep for Season 8 starting in February 2019. If you're interested in the classes we offer, you can visit cmpfr.com That's c m p f r dot com. And if you are liking what you're hearing, please leave a review on iTunes or wherever you find your podcasts. It really helps out. Until next time.