“How do you find your place in the world?" featuring Jill Carnaghi

This episode features Jill Carnaghi, one of Campfire’s Fellows. Jill Carnaghi provides her answer to the Season 15 question, “How do you find your place in the world?". A Fellow’s Campfire can best be described as TED without the data, The Moth but interactive, and a sermon but without the religion. You can learn more about Jill Carnaghi on the Campfire website, https://cmpfr.com/events/jill-carnaghi/.

The Campfire Fellows go through rigorous training and coaching provided by Campfire Faculty so they can share their wisdom through story for you. Our Fellows are the people next to you at stoplights or walking by on the street. These Fellows apply or are nominated by people like you, who know interesting and introspective people with some wisdom to share. The Fellows go through a unique process with our team to discover a wealth of wisdom inside themselves and then are trained on how to share the origin stories of their wisdom. 

This episode was originally performed in December 2017, produced by Andrew Warshauer, and recorded live at The Stage at KDHX.

Transcript

Steven Harowitz:   0:07
Hi, I'm Steven Harowitz, the Director of Campfire. You're listening to Campfire at Home. It's our way of bringing the live experience to you, whether that be listening and reflecting by yourself or experiencing it with friends. Campfire invites listeners into discussions about life and how we live it. Each Campfire Season poses a life question that is explored by our Campfire Fellows together with our audience. This Season's question is how do you find your place in the world? And today we're listening to Jill Carnaghi's answer, and we're lucky enough to catch up with her for a post-Campfire interview that I'd love to share with you now. So, Jill, what was your answer to the Season 5 Campfire question.

Jill Carnaghi:   0:52
How do I find my place in this world? The ultimate answer is that I haven't and that I'm getting closer to not knowing what I'm doing next. But I think the story I told really, um, took people through a lot of decades of how I got to the point where I am and what comes next and the fact that I that I really don't know but I'm excited about the possibilities.  

Steven Harowitz:   1:23
So how did you feel about the concept of place before you were selected as a Fellow? 

Jill Carnaghi:   1:28
When I'd hear the word place before I would think about concrete places or geographical, and now, having gone through the experience, I think place really isn't the location, but it's the people, the environment, the interactions I find myself with, the challenges, the opportunities. And then how do I make my way through that? So it's more of, place to me now is more figurative than literal.  

Steven Harowitz:   2:00
So let's let's kind of revert back a little bit and ask, what was your experience when you were a Fellow?  

Jill Carnaghi:   2:10
Well, of course I didn't do my homework well, so what I applied for and what happened that were very different things.  

Steven Harowitz:   2:17
Tell me more about that.

Jill Carnaghi:   2:17
Because I really thought, I had been to Campfires before and was excited because I'd loved the experience and I thought, "Oh, okay. They're doing a Fellow program. So the three of us would be telling our story together." Then when I found out, no, I had a night myself, I was like, no, no.

Steven Harowitz:   2:38
You had 40 minutes to yourself.

Jill Carnaghi:   2:39
I was like, "No, no, no." But I had committed to it. And, um, so the experience to me was fascinating and something probably I never expected, probably caused me great angst and anxiety from whenever, September through December, yet, I mean, I don't regret it for a minute though. There were times of great anxiety, but I think having the opportunity to meet and work with Molly and Ryan and then the people on Campfire, I mean it, it was an incredible experience that I think's hard to describe, um, particularly as you're going through it because each week I might not have put a lot on paper, but I was constantly thinking about what's my story. And if I hadn't had the guidance, um, from those of you in Campfire, I mean, I was like, "Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts." And so it was more of a chronology until you and others were like, "No, Jill, this is not, it's a story." I mean, and how do you engage people? How do you bring them in? And, um, that was daunting, clearly, but the reiteration over and over again. And I hope I heard the feedback and made the changes. I mean, it really was a growth and learning experience.  

Jill Carnaghi:   4:10
You, I will, I can validate. You definitely made the changes. So you did good on that. I'm gonna add in a question just a little bit into this just because we're on the topic. So we've got our second meeting with our next Fellows class tonight. Would you have any words of wisdom that you'd want to share with them?  

Jill Carnaghi:   4:27
Probably many. None that they should heed or listen to. But I think it'd be trust the process. That, um, you know, you've got all these different pieces coming at you. And some of it wasn't new to me being in the profession I'm in. However, it was applied differently or thought about differently. That I think has great application for just about anybody in any profession, job, life. Probably I would have liked to have had more time interacting with Molly and Ryan because we probably couldn't be more different. But I loved the time I spent with them, and I love their stories. You know, I mean, it was special. Would I want to do it again? No.

Steven Harowitz:   5:15
We're doing a new event where it's 120 minutes on stage, you only, if you're interested.

Jill Carnaghi:   5:20
Shoot me. Dear God.

Steven Harowitz:   5:22
Um, okay, great. Thank you. I appreciate you sharing about that. So going through this process has place as a concept changed for you and how you look at it? 

Jill Carnaghi:   5:33
Oh, yeah. Um, the whole concept of place, there's so many variables now when I think about place and what makes a place good for me. I mean, is it is it the task, the work? But it's really probably clearly the people. And if I take time for the people, interact with them, get to know their story, where they're, I hate to say where they're at,but what they're experiencing in their lives. Um, so I think it's probably slowed, slowed me down in, relating and not getting all the information and all the facts. But what are the key elements, or what's the story that you really wanna, that you want me to hear?  

Steven Harowitz:   6:21
Yeah. That's an important distinction. So, what did you hear from the audience that you found interesting during the moments that you got to get some reactions from them?  

Jill Carnaghi:   6:32
Probably once I got up there, except for the damn lights, um, that was probably the most relaxed I had been from the standpoint, um and you had told me this, but I'm not sure I believed you that...

Steven Harowitz:   6:48
I'm excited to hear what this part is.  

Jill Carnaghi:   0:00
Well, that no, the audience will be with you. I mean, they'll be supportive, and I and a lot of them I knew so that was helpful. And they really were. So I still could have sucked. But they were, they were helpful, supportive, and they they told their stories. And it was good to talk to them afterwards because I think I was concerned, um, being as old and out of date, I could be that would there be something in my story that would resonate with a wide variety of individuals? And I think I can say it probably did. And a couple of them of contacted me afterwards, and me and I've talked with a few folks.  

Steven Harowitz:   7:35
I think that's a pretty good sign that you did well. If people wanted to talk to you after it's a good sign.

Jill Carnaghi:   7:40
Or they're just nice but.

Steven Harowitz:   7:43
I feel I feel that's another moment where I can say you did a good job.  

Jill Carnaghi:   7:46
Thank you.  

Steven Harowitz:   7:48
In the conversations you had right after the event, I'd be interested in what kind of feedback, even from people you knew, what were those conversations like?

Jill Carnaghi:   7:58
I think they they might have given me affirmation that I had done a good job. But I also think maybe my story or my doubts were affirming for them. That okay, this is a place where I am right now, and it's okay. And for some that didn't know, maybe, what law school they were going to, where they were traveling, what they were doing here, what came next, I probably by me saying, "I don't have an idea," I think it was reaffirming for them. Not that we're both wallowing in some self-pity or the same boat, but it's exciting to look ahead and what our possibilities and to give yourself credit for what you've done in the past will get you ready, hopefully, for many of the next steps if you don't go too far afield.  

Steven Harowitz:   8:51
Yeah, like that. That's great. So I just have two other questions for you. Um, let's let's go with is there anything you wish you had said or hadn't said?  

Jill Carnaghi:   9:06
I don't know if they needed to know about my doctor's appointment.  

Steven Harowitz:   9:10
I thought there's a great button at the end of the show.  

Jill Carnaghi:   9:11
Yes, um, I think what was interesting about the whole process that by the time I got up there, it wasn't like a rote speech, but I knew probably five or six main points that I really wanted to make. And and I'd still stick with those probably. Would I have, um, you know, and Campfire folks keep having me shorten up on parts that really didn't have a tie to the story. And so I mean, there might have been pieces or that I'd want to emphasize differently, but I kind of left it all out there, I think.  

Steven Harowitz:   9:59
That's wonderful. So the last question is, now that you've been through the process, you've thought about this question for quite some time, what makes the question important?  

Jill Carnaghi:   10:12
I think that's an important question for everybody to ask themselves. And it was probably, it seemed initially an easy question or that that would allow anybody into the conversation rather than what are your goals or what's your life mission? Where do you go? But it faked me out. Um, it was not easy at all, and it was like peeling back an onion's not a good analogy. I like onions, but but to keep going deeper, kind of to the core of who you are. I think that's good for just about anybody to be introspective and to be reflective, cause I think all too often we just do, do, do and go, go, go. So I think the question's important for everybody to think about. And when they don't, when you don't have a place or you're in a place where you don't like that, how do you, how can you even identify what are the pieces I don't like? Or what are the things I'm excited about? And you know, different people, some are way more risk takers and will throw everything to the wind, and others, it will be much more methodical and more like step.

Steven Harowitz:   11:32
Jill, I want to say thank you for all the time you spent with us throughout the Fellows program, your honesty, your vulnerability, your willingness to do 40 minutes on stage when you thought it was probably about 10. You did a wonderful job, and I think the audience got a lot out of it. And I don't know if a lot of our Fellows or past storytellers have ever gotten follow up e-mails, so I think the fact that people are reaching out and want to have that conversation speaks a lot to what you did on stage and what you provided to people. So I really, on behalf of all of Campfire, say thank you.  

Jill Carnaghi:   11:59
Well, thank you, because it really was a great experience.  

Steven Harowitz:   12:03
So now that we've had our lovely conversation, let's head down to The Stage at KDHX to hear Jill's campfire.

Jill Carnaghi:   12:17
Thank you, Steven, for that introduction, and thank you all for being here. And when I agreed to do this, I don't think he had any idea what I was getting into, or those of you who know me know I would not be up here. Um, how do you find your place in the world? I got that task along with Ryan and Molly, my other two Campfire Fellows back in September, and I really thought it was gonna be a pretty straightforward, easy answer. And I know as you look at me, you're like, yeah, right, because she was not born yesterday. Um, and I am more than aware of that. So I had decades to pour through of how I found my place or places in the world. And what I want to do is bring up about six forced volunteers that are gonna plant us. For me, you're going to find out that context is incredibly important. So I wanna plant us back in 1953. So you do not need to guess how old I am or when I went gray or any of that. I am 64 and counting, and very proud of it. So the six people that Grace recruited, could you come on up? Don't be bashful, okay? And what I'd like you to do is, and some of you I know, and I'm grateful for your volunteering. Say, introduce yourself. And if you're willing, say your age and then read what's in the envelope, and there's an order to this. Not that it really matters. But if it says first, that's the idea. You go first.  

Audience Member:   14:03
Oh, I'm first. My name is Kelsey. I'm 30, means I was born in 1987, and in 1953 Dwight D. Eisenhower becomes president on January 20th, 1953.  

Audience Member:   14:18
Hi, I'm Mary. I'm 37. I was born in 1980. Um, and Hugh Hefner publishes the first issue of Playboy magazine with Marilyn, Marilyn Monroe as a centerfold. It sells over 54,000 copies at 50 cents each.  

Audience Member:   14:33
Hi, I'm Abby. I'm 31. So I was born in '86. Had to think about that. The average cost of a new house was $9,550 and a new car was $1,650.  

Audience Member:   14:50
Hi, I'm Sharnelle. I'm 27, who was born in 1990. On June 2nd, 1953, Queen Elizabeth II was crowned Queen of England, the first coronation to be broadcast on television.  

Audience Member:   15:04
Hi, I'm Monica. I'm 24, so I was born in 1993. First polio vaccine was developed in 1953.  

Audience Member:   15:16
Good evening. I'm Danielle. I am 46. You can do the math, and the first Chevrolet Corvette was built in Flint, Michigan.  

Jill Carnaghi:   15:25
Let's give them all a round of applause. Thank you very much. And so if you think back of what was happening in those times, the only thing that probably is still stable today is Queen Elizabeth. I mean when you think about it, really? So that was my world or the world that I was entering into. So fast forward to Indianapolis, Indiana, in 1953. Zero in on that. Angelo Josepi Carnaghi and Gladys Janine Lowry, my parents, were welcoming their first child into the world on January 19th. Enter me. So it was a very different world then. I happened to have three siblings that are younger than myself, Mike, Mark and Jan. That was planned and purposeful. Those names based on Angelo and Janine and all the confusion. So they wanted to make sure that when we introduced ourselves, people understood who we are were and had to look them in the eye. And so when I think about growing up, what comes to mind, we lived, to begin with, in a very small house in the neighborhood, and all these houses looked similar. They were different colors, but they were lined up around the cul-de-sac down the street and close by us was a creek and not a crick, not a stream. We called it the creek, and we spent many times down there. I probably thought my mother didn't know where we were or she would never have allowed it. But knowing her, she probably did. It was a bike ride away. We could walk. We'd be there in the summer. We'd be there in the winner. We inevitably would fall in. The dog would fall in. We always thought it would be frozen in the winter. We'd fall in then as well. But when I think about that, it was important to know there were no cell phones back then. There were no color televisions, no Gameboys, Xboxes. We were kind of forced to go out and play, go outside, figure out something to do and even back then, being the oldest, I don't remember being really an only child because my brother was only two years. I felt a sense of responsibility that I had to take care of him and take care of others around me. That was an important piece of what was instilled in me, probably and more by example than by a lot of lecture. And behind me there'll be a picture that should appear that you'll get a sense. Enter Mom, Dad and me. That was the kitchen. It is not a large space when you figure the two large humans and myself, but that's exactly what it looked like. It was very small. To my right was window and a rectangular table that was formica. God knows what formica is, but it's something fake with metal legs, and my mother would sit at the end where I was seated and my dad was at the other end, and that was so small that if anybody knocked at the door during dinner that, heaven forbid, that was a no-no. He had to move his chair to get up, so we usually would just say, "Karen, Jill is eating. She'll be out when it's over." So there was a really ritual around our table of where people sat, who was responsible for who, the expectations to behave. Each sibling that was younger than me sat closest to my mother. And to start it was my brother, Mike, because she would be the one that would cut the meat, make sure he didn't grab all the potatoes and corn because those were two things people would hoard quickly to pass around. So there was, you know, 5:30 every night, my father would come home from work. We would sit down, and it was a real meal. I think my kids could say their mother never has prepared a real meal in her whole life, maybe a few times. But as I tell that story, and as I tell stories through the night, I want you to think about your place and how you begin to find it. So a show of hands. Does, when I told the story about dinner time and meal, did that resonate with anybody? Did something conjure up? Okay, see a good number of hands. How about a couple of you that raised your hand, are willing to share your story or what came to mind about place, meal? I was looking at you. Are you willing to share?  

Jill Carnaghi:   20:31
And as I think about my childhood, it was one of, um, safety, security, two parents that lived under the same roof that loved me, that it was really a solid foundation of which I started. And I don't think I knew that are realized it at the time, but that was an important piece that I think built on later. And when I think about going to high school well, let me back up. St. Pius X Grade School, that's where I went. That's where I could walk to school. And the greatest difference, diversity, in my life at that time were the Catholics and the publics. So the Catholics went to St. Pius and God knows where the publics went, but they didn't go to St. Pius X Grade School. So again, a very kind of narrow bubble in which I lived. So high school came, and it's like I actually was was empowered to decide what high school I wanted to go to. My options were a public coed, which was tempting, a Catholic coed, or Catholic all girls. And the decision was totally mine. And I decided, yes, wait for it, Catholic all girls, and believe it or not, the name of the school, Ladywood School. Yes, that was the real name, and Ladywood was one word. Lady and wood should never be put together in any format ever in the 1960s or, God forbid, in 2017. But I think really and that, but I loved it. It was a decision I made. I loved it. I wasn't competing against the boys. I found great friends, leadership opportunities. It was a good place. But again, it was kind of this narrow world in which I lived. So on comes college. I don't think I ever thought of my parents being first generation until I spent this whole fall agonizing, agonizing over how do I find my place in the world? And they were first generation. But the expectation was always that the four of us were going to go to college. So that was not a big decision either. They made a valiant attempt to take me around, usually on vacations. Would you like to look at this school, that school? Wherever. So my father got to Purdue University on a football scholarship. My mother was valedictorian of her high school class, and she was one of the few that went to college. And she went to college to marry the captain of the football team, so it worked out for them. They got married. They were happily married for 65 years until my mother passed in 2015. So I went to Purdue thinking, I'll find somebody. We'll live happily ever after. It'll all work, work out. I was a total failure in that area. Um, it was a non-starter, but I but I found out that I did education well, so and I loved what I did. I loved the classroom. I loved even more what I did outside the classroom, whether it be your stereotypical sorority life, orientation, any myriad of activities and events. Sign me up. I would do it. And by chance, I had the opportunity to work. Yes,Dean of Women and Dean of Men were still alive, so there was no Dean of Students. But I had the opportunity to meet any number of incredible women within the Dean of Women's Office for all the different activities I was involved in, and four years, it was coming. It was like, what the hell am I gonna do? I knew I had to feed myself after graduation but was clueless because I might have start in pre-veterinary science. But I ended up in human development and recreation. I even took horse and pony management, flower arranging, and bowling. I mean, I had a ball. I had no idea where it was gonna get me, because, um, I remember interviewing at Steak and Ale. I like to eat, but no way in hell would I want to manage anything related to food since I never cooked. Um, but I think from these women, I I got to know them as individuals and it appeared they earned a living. I mean, they wore clothes. They ate. I thought this could be a possibility. So I said, "How did you get there? What did you do?" And it was those individuals who really told me about college student personnel administration. And since I know some of you in the audience, I know you know what that is. For those of you that don't, it's just a whole lot of words strung together that mean nothing, because nobody grows up and want to be, I want to be in college student personnel administration. Um, but what it is for those of you that were in college or university, it may be the hall advisers, it may be financial aid individuals, and maybe people that helped with student activities or career centers. Or if you were one of those that got in trouble, it may be one of those people, but it really was how did we create an environment outside the classroom that was exciting as what was inside the classroom? So then the lights kicked. These women helped me to figure out the next steps. I applied to three institutions and I decided on Michigan State. Now that's where my narrow world began to expand, because there weren't a whole lot of decisions I had to make or that were life shattering till then. But for me to decide to move five hours away to go where I knew nobody and I really didn't know what this thing called college student personnel administration was. But I thought I do education well. I may like this, so I went. But that's that's where my world really opened up and the whole concept of difference took on a whole different meaning. I was a hall adviser. I lived in an all male on an all male floor, heaven forbid, but I learned a ton, and when I think about it, it pains me. Sometimes when I think about what I didn't know or how insensitive I was to people that were different than me, and that could be along race, ethnicity, sexual orientation. Back then we didn't know gender, or how insensitive I was to people that were different than me, and that could be along race, ethnicity, sexual orientation. Back then, we didn't know what gender identity and gender expression was, religion, even geographical location, socioeconomic status. But that was a really eye opening learning experience for me. And then I learned more about what we called college student personnel administration. Another two words that should never go together, student affairs. It's not good, particularly after the last few days, but even student services is not much better. But that's what I was going into, and I describe some of the specific jobs, but the analogy I'd make, and some of you will probably take offense at this, but if you've ever been at a parade and you've seen elephants processing down the street and horses and you're a little kid and going, "I love it. I love it," and student affairs, it's kind of the person by the side of the horse or the elephant with the shovel, and that's kind of how I view my job. I should not be seen, except if they take a dump or some crisis happens. Then the little kid goes, "Mom, I can't believe they're shitting in the middle of the street," and then I just scoop it up and they go forward and that's what. Yes, Seth, it's true. But even after two years, I thought, "Is this really a profession, at best, a field, at worst, that I really wanna devote my life to?" I won't go with field and poop, that analogy. We're not going there, but, um, I didn't know. I wasn't sure if this was for me or not. My father, who was a successful businessman, said, "You know, if you got to earn a living, why don't you do something where you make real money?" So he wasn't a fan of it particularly. But I thought, "I'll try it out." So my first job, it solidified for me that this is really what I wanted to do. Um, there was a passion that I could feel inside me that I liked, that I loved working with students, um, in groups, individually. A good example was when I was at University of Vermont. There was an event, Octoberfest, and, of course, the year before I got there it had gone horribly wrong. And when you think about Octoberfest in Vermont, all the pictures you see of the red, yellow, orange leaves. I mean, it's really that beautiful. When you think of Octoberfest, there's got to be a lot of beer, bratwurst, crafts, entertainment. Well, the year that it went wrong was the beer tent. No one was injured, but the foliage of the neighbor who was pretty prominent next door, some students just mowed down her whole hedge. So it's like I'm the new person. "Jill, what are you going to do, you know, to prevent this?" There's got to be, there's laws. There's on and on, and I'm scratching my head like, "I have no idea what you're talking about." But there was a student committee and the ability to work with them to problem-solve, to figure out how we could have a beer tent that was a little bit more legal or followed part of state law. I mean, Bernie Sanders was mayor at the time, so he'd be at the cow milking, so you thought we've gotta, we gotta figure this out because we don't need to make the front page of the Burlington Free Press about fall foliage being destroyed, cows being tipped, whatever. But really, when I figured out that working with students and trusting them to make the decisions, I loved it and I embraced it, and I've done it for years with different student governments, and it's not anyway selfless at all. It's incredibly selfish because I benefit greatly from it. Other incidents that is so poignant in my mind when I think about place and where I was that weren't such good times. I remember getting a call on a Sunday morning, and it was the police on campus that said, "Jill, I really need you. A student, his brother was killed in a drunk driving accident out east. It was a one car crash, and it was the brother who was drunk." So I said, "Sure. I[ll meet the fraternity house," where the student lived. I didn't know him, but found him, introduced myself along with the officer. Had to, there's no way to tell anybody that you've never met to say that your brother was just killed, and it was gut wrenching and this kid was in shock. He was angry at his brother. I mean, there's just a whole host of emotions. It also happened to be Family and Parent Weekend, so his parents were in town. So I said, I'll call him Evan, "Evan, we've got to do this. Why don't you contact your parents? And why don't we meet them? The police officer will drive us over to the hotel," and we went over there and, um, Evan and I had kind of talked, you know? "Do you want to tell him?" "Yeah, yeah, I'll tell him." So of course, the mother's not ready. The dad comes down, and it's a lobby, in a hotel lobby, busy on Sunday. Everybody's checking out, and the dad's like, "What's wrong? What's wrong?" Evan's like, "Well, where's Mom?" "Well, she's getting ready. What?" "Can you have her come down?" So we found a secluded part over in off the lobby, and the mom came down. And of course, she's like, "Evan, what's happening?" And so Evan froze. So I'm introducing myself to these parents and say, "I've got something absolutely horrific. Your son was killed in an automobile accident," and the guttural sounds coming from this mother were just, I can still hear it today. But I think at that point in time, I realized that again I had a responsibility. It was my place to be there and how I could assist them if anybody could. And but they were flying back. They wanted Evan to go back right away. Evan didn't want to go back right away. We worked through it, kept in touch. Evan was incredibly close to his brother, and he took a leave the next semester. But when he came back, he and I would have lunch, touch base, and they got through it and had many conversations with the mother over the time. And I'm still in contact with them, and he's happily married and has a small child. But for me, um, it was it was incredibly difficult. I wouldn't, I've had to do it a few times and wouldn't want to do it ever. But again, through through the place I was, the purpose, the expanding of my role and my world had changed so significantly by that graduate program. So I'd like you to sit back, take a deep breath and think of a time in your life when you took a risk that challenged yourself to explore your place in the world. Because for me, going to Michigan State might have been not been a huge risk for anybody else but for me from the insular place I'd lived. So think about a time when you took a risk to say, "I'm gonna give this a try."  

Jill Carnaghi:   35:51
Okay, thank you for your willingness to share with your new best friend who you probably had never met before. And I will not, I will not ask you to share what risk you took in a larger group. Being an introvert, there's only so far that I pushed this. Um, but I think for me and thinking back about how did I find my place in this world, Michigan State was one that really expanded how, was, what my values were in. But it really went off of my educational and professional. The personal kind of took a back seat. I mean, I dated and explored and had all kinds of unhealthy and semi-healthy relationships. But, um, when in doubt, I would just move to the next job. Um, I'm not a big risk taker. Let me tell you, I'll put that out there right now if you haven't figured it out. So what kind of the next place is my professional life. I felt comfortable with it. I knew who I was. I'm not sure I always knew what when my professional values and my personal values. They were so co-mingled of who I was and how much more I needed to learn about others, about difference. Um, I didn't want to make the same mistakes, the insensitivities, because there's I have little tolerance for the white individual who tries to be incredibly kind and benevolent but does but is totally ignorant and does little self-work for themselves. I think they do more harm than about anybody, so that was a priority. I think both of my professional life as well as my personal life. And but I still loved my profession. That was solidified. And when I looked around and said, "Do I want to advance? Um, I may need the Ph.D." Because there are a lot of people I worked with had that had the doctorate and some I greatly respected and loved, and others I thought, "If they got their Ph.D., I sure as hell I'm gonna get mine." Because it's more about persistence, I think, than anything else. Because some of them, I thought it's like a Walmart or a target. You know, that's where they got their degree. So I can do this. Maybe cocky and not very kind others, but I but I plunged in, but I don't think it was as big a risk as going to Michigan State because I was grounded in why I was doing what I was doing, what I enjoyed about it. So I went to Indiana University, and, um, after I'd lived at University of California, Davis, University of Vermont, I mean, I've been all over the place, but kind of coming back home. Um, but it wasn't it. It was a risk to go back to school at how? Because I wasn't getting any younger. Remember that? That was my brain. Still gonna work in the same way. But I thought I can figure this out. And I knew people there, and I knew what I wanted to do with it. But then came another term I hate, work-life balance. Um, I have dismissed that because it's not a priority anymore in my life, as my family can attest to. Sometimes it's, you know, 100 and 10 work. Sometimes it's 110 family, but and I'd loved the courses. It was a, it's an irrational decision to go back to school in your early thirties and take a 90% pay cut and be back to poverty level. But I was with the cohort of people that did that, and we'd go to this dive diner. We'd see Bob Knight once in a while. He could have bought the diner. He's the basketball was, the basketball coach at IU 'til he stupidly did many stupid things. Um, but we going to be a big group of us. And then one day it was just myself and this other guy, and I like this guy, but he didn't talk and he didn't talk fast. And I'm like, this is gonna be a long lunch or a short lunch. But I, the introvert, and him, the slow, quiet talker, I thought, but I actually enjoyed it. Um, we had a good time. I'm like we have a lot in common. Then somehow the two of us ended up at an IU basketball game together, just the two of us, because I worked for a dean that he was a Russian historian. So when he'd go to Russia, which he still could at the time, I'd get his tickets. But so the two of us were there and the same guy, and I'd go to a basketball game with the devil, really, or my or myself. But I thought, "This is good. I know this guy." It's all good. It's in asocial social activity, just like, and in Indiana, Go Hoosiers is a good thing. Missouri, I got some issues. So then we went out for drinks afterwards, and, believe it or not, you might know I'm a decisive and opinionated person, that I knew after those drinks this is the guy that I want to spend the rest of my life with. Of course, he didn't know it, because we're not moving fast here. But then we started to date, and it was actually healthy, and we enjoyed the same things. We had a great time, and again I wasn't getting any younger. So I thought, "Is this moving forward or not?" So I kind of gave him the ultimatum: shit or get off the pot by by August 31st, 1990. I had a lot in this. I mean, I knew he was it. I don't know if he knew I was it, and I could see why. Um, but finally, on August 30th, and now when I say this in 2017, why was I even waiting for him to ask him to marry me? Why didn't I just say, you know, "Let's do it?" Um, so he did. So he had a day, he had 24 hours left, but it all worked. And we got married that April, and it was a wedding that still to this day, the memories were great. The friends, the colleagues, the family, they were all there. And I think my mother was more excited that her daughter was getting married at the age of, I don't even know what it was, 32, 33 than getting a Ph.D. It's like finally. Um and then, so the wedding was great. We get married. We move to back to Vermont. And doing marriage is very different than having a great wedding. You can love somebody, but the first year it's like, "Phew, how are, you know, how does this all work?" We love each other, and it grew into, like, a wonderful, solid relationship, but not without kind of, is he gonna talk when I asked him a question? Does he have to wait to process and meditate? But we worked through that, and we got to the point where we really want a family. And so we went through all that, and I don't dismiss this lightly because it was crushing. But I had two miscarriages, but again, I wasn't getting any younger. So it's like we still want a family. But how are we going to make this happen? So we started an adoption process, and we went with couples and singles to various classes, and we're all set to go to Russia. We're fingerprinted. All set. When we got a call in the middle of the summer of 1994, they told us that there was a couple in Florida who was expecting. They weren't, they weren't able, able or capable of caring for this child. Are you interested? We had 24 hours to decide. Remember my husband does not, we don't buy anything quickly, and I couldn't get him angry, get to the decision that I wanted and I think he wanted. So we worked through it, and we said yes. And, um, part of the yes that we had talked about through all these classes was were we able and capable to bring a child of a different ethnicity into our lives? And we talked with a lot of friends. We talked with experts. We read about it because we've heard many different things and we said, "We really, really want this." And Sarah was born, um, came into our lives in September of '94, and again we thought the adoption process was so challenging. But then we have this child, and it's like, yikes, we've got, um we've got to keep her alive, that we've got to feed her. Loving her and staring at her and watching he was no problem but to feed, change in a timely way that made sense, that took some practice. And I was working full-time, and Paul was working part-time, but that year was absolutely amazing. Um, and then we said, "Okay, we think we got this. Let's try for two." Um, and we're all set to start the home study again in January, when we got a call in December 19th, right before we're going back to Indianapolis, to say the same couple was expecting again. Their situation was no better. Are you interested? Well, of course, we're interested. The tears came. I think there's another picture that you could put up. So that was our daughter drawing our family, so at probably aged four. And the reason I know it's our daughter and not our son, cause she included a dog, our dog. Our son, he doesn't understand animals, and they all living things need water, to pick up after him. But clearly, even when you look at this picture of, I'm the one with the helmet head because I had gray hair at that time. Our kids are different color. My husband, you probably can't see, but had a beard. Up until recently, I'd never seen him without his beard, and I really had no need but he looks great. Um, but so really, to make that decision to bring two children who are Puerto Rican into our lives and what we needed to learn and what they needed to learn of of how we went about this. So Michael was born on my birthday in '96, and our family was complete and, um, it's it's been amazing and so exciting and so expanding when you think about my life back in Indianapolis and kind of this narrow view of what I thought about what family was, what mothers and fathers are supposed to do, how it all comes together. If I hadn't had my professional background and learning and struggling and dealing with, I don't think, uh I would have expanded the idea of family like we did or to be able to do it relatively well. Um, you know, and we were older as well, so the grey hair, when I'd come to day care sometimes the kids would go, "Michael, your grandma's here," and Michael'd go, "Okay, whatever." Um but to go back to the question, how did I find my place in the world? It really didn't come to me until the Campfire people had been working with me for quite a while to think about the how part of it, and then it was kind of after spending way too much time thinking and reflecting. The three things that came to mind, of how I found my place or places in the world had to do with three words that I like that go together: people, passion, and purpose, and not necessarily in that order. But when I think about the family and the foundation that I had to start, that it was supportive, loving, and I know that was a gift. Um, but then it allowed me to expand my world, and I think probably sometimes passion of loving what I did before I understood why I do what I do. But I think those three, passion, purpose, people, were the ones that kept playing over in my mind, the different themes as I moved around the country, took different jobs, interacted with different individuals. And so that could be my gift to you tonight when you think about how do you find your place in the world. But I wouldn't be true to you or to myself if I didn't tack on the other part. Um, I hope I have many years ahead. But this June 30th my job ends. And so, um, I'm excited about it. I'm anxious. Um, one friend that I went out to dinner with last week said, "Don't you think you should talk to a therapist about this?" And Danielle, I may take you up on that, but I think for me the excitement of what happens after my job ends, and I could look for another job, but I think I really am ready to explore what's next. So I'm not sure if you've found your place and how you've done it. I can congratulate you and applaud you. But if you haven't, I think it's a lifelong process and one that's been more enriching, more expansive for me with each step I've taken, and I don't paint anything in Pollyanna-ish ways. That it's been painful. I've hurt people, but it's been an exciting and moving up as far as what do I want to do and how do I want to contribute back to society? But I'm going to go back to looking at passion, purpose and people. So I thank you for listening, and I do have a gift for you if you choose to take it. Ah, Bonner and Grace will be at the back when you leave, and it's just a simple bookmark piece of paper, and this one is about me. It's got my date. It's got my email address on the back as well as June 30, 2018. And two things you could well, three things you could do with that. One, don't. Four. One, don't, don't take it. Two, recycle it. Three, spend the next six months thinking about how you find your place in the world, and I mean this in all seriousness. If you want to email me, I would be more than willing to engage in an email exchange, text, face to face. Being old, I like seeing people's expressions and interacting with them. But I think I'm gonna have some time after June 30th. Because as I told my Campfire people, and I thought, do I share this? But I've spilled my guts to you, the only thing I have scheduled on that Monday, July 2nd, is a gynecological exam. Really. At 9 a.m. So I'm booked. I'm booked at nine. But other than that, I'm all yours. So thank you very much for coming and for listening.

Steven Harowitz:   52:05
And that's a wrap. I'd like to thank Jill for answering this Season's question, how do you find your place in the world? A big thank you to Seth Schroeder, Narrative Architect, Jenny Harping, Facilitation Director, Grace Lutrell Pettit, Community Engagement Director, Andrew Warshauer, Campfire at Home Producer, Bonner Williams, Director of Operations, and all of our day-of volunteers, photographers and videographers. A special thanks to KDHX Community Media for being our partners on this journey. We're so honored to host Campfire live in The Stage at KDHX and for letting us record in KDHX studios in St. Louis. If you want to learn more about Campfire and the work we do, visit cmpfr.com.  That's c m p f r dot com. And if you liked what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes or wherever you find your podcasts. It really helps out. Until next time.