The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast

13.2: "The Winchesters" E9 - Red String Edition

November 15, 2023 Season 2 Episode 13
13.2: "The Winchesters" E9 - Red String Edition
The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast
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The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast
13.2: "The Winchesters" E9 - Red String Edition
Nov 15, 2023 Season 2 Episode 13

We'd love to hear from you! Reach out to us via this link to let us know what you're thinking!

This episode begins with a discussion of fate vs luck in "Cast Your Fate to the Wind" and the wider Supernatural franchise. Catherine and Chrisha then move on to monsters and gods, the differences between The Winchesters' vampires and the vampires from Supernatural (and what those differences might mean), and how the episode's music spoke into its themes.

The bulk of the conversation focuses on the scene in the Red Room, its contrasts and parallels with "Despair" and "Carry On" (as usual, no audio clips are used for the latter), and the kiss between Carlos and Anton!

The Winchesters audio clip credits: The CW
Supenatural  audio clip credits: The WB; The CW
Music clips: "Bad Moon Rising" by Clearance Creedwater Revival; "Americana" theme by Jay Gruska; "Cast Your Fate to the Wind" by Vince Guaraldi & Carel Werber (clips from 1966 Shelby Flint and and 1967 Johnny Rivers versions); "Cadillac" by Lassie; "Rats" by The Kinks

Follow us on Twitter @TheFangirlBiz and on Bluesky

Join our Kofi Discord community at $1/month:

Support our podcast by buying our new merch:

Thanks for listening!

Show Notes Transcript

We'd love to hear from you! Reach out to us via this link to let us know what you're thinking!

This episode begins with a discussion of fate vs luck in "Cast Your Fate to the Wind" and the wider Supernatural franchise. Catherine and Chrisha then move on to monsters and gods, the differences between The Winchesters' vampires and the vampires from Supernatural (and what those differences might mean), and how the episode's music spoke into its themes.

The bulk of the conversation focuses on the scene in the Red Room, its contrasts and parallels with "Despair" and "Carry On" (as usual, no audio clips are used for the latter), and the kiss between Carlos and Anton!

The Winchesters audio clip credits: The CW
Supenatural  audio clip credits: The WB; The CW
Music clips: "Bad Moon Rising" by Clearance Creedwater Revival; "Americana" theme by Jay Gruska; "Cast Your Fate to the Wind" by Vince Guaraldi & Carel Werber (clips from 1966 Shelby Flint and and 1967 Johnny Rivers versions); "Cadillac" by Lassie; "Rats" by The Kinks

Follow us on Twitter @TheFangirlBiz and on Bluesky

Join our Kofi Discord community at $1/month:

Support our podcast by buying our new merch:

Thanks for listening!

Disclaimer: Welcome to The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast. The information presented in this podcast is intended to be for entertainment and educational purposes only. It should never be used in place of advice given by a mental health or medical professional or as a substitute for mental health treatment. If you are struggling with a mental health issue, please seek treatment from a mental health professional in your area.

Intro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze

Chrisha: Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Fangirl Business

Catherine: I'm Catherine. 

Chrisha: And I'm Chrisha. And today we are here to talk about season one, episode nine of The Winchesters, “Cast Your Fate to the Wind”. And this is part two, because just, like, can't even get near that final scene without needing at least an hour. 

Catherine: I mean― 

Chrisha: Like a full 60 minutes. *laughs*

Catherine: Seriously, seriously. And we also need to talk about the vampires, ‘cause… wow.*laughs*

Chrisha: Right, right.

Catherine: Shall we start with the vampires? 

Chrisha: Yeah, let's do.

Catherine: Okay, so they're looking for an amulet, which is called the Gem of Ursitoare. It was created from one of the ribs of the Ursitoare, who are the Romanian gods of fate. And the members of a clan of vampires that worship the Ursitoare are called Il Soarta. And so the Il Soarta vampires are looking for this gem, which John picks up with his bare hand … like an idiot.

Chrisha: *snort laughs* Bless his heart. Just keep saying that. 

*both laugh*

Catherine: I mean, it's not like Dean hasn't done stuff like that too, but oh, boy. It's meant to be this vision of the future that is never wrong. Diana says:

Diana: The Ursitoare are never wrong. What the amulet shows must come to pass. Once this object reveals your fate, it is sealed. 

Catherine: So it’s like, it’s done, it’s over, that’s it. It's interesting because in Supernatural, I didn't really delve into this, but they did have the Titanic episode. *laughs*

Chrisha: They did. Yes, they did.

Catherine: Which was all about the Greek goddesses of Fate. They're obviously a different group than this group. So it's interesting that we've got different gods of fate in different Supernatural universes. It sounds like you had thought about that a little bit.

Chrisha: Yeah, I think it's interesting in context of what we learned towards the end of season 15 in “The Gamblers”, about how gods and goddesses came into being and how that all worked. And so I guess I was thinking of it in terms of there’s probably just both. Both Greek and Romanian. You know, it was interesting that this was going in that other direction, where we already had the Greek fates. And then also something I had never considered, but came up while I was looking through is that the fates from that Titanic episode were working with Heaven, even though they were Pagan.

Catherine: Yes! Okay!

Chrisha: Which doesn't happen a lot. Which is, I was like, “Oh, I hadn't really thought about that!”

Catherine: Yeah, but then in season 15, they have the Egyptian god Set, who's working for Heaven in terms of balancing the scales and all that stuff. So I guess, like, that happened more often than we thought it did. But I'd forgotten the tie to the Fates.

Chrisha: The other piece of it is that the Greek fates often were called the Moirai or something similar to that.

Catherine: If you haven't watched season 15, there is an episode where Sam and Dean go to a bar and they encounter the Goddess of Luck, and she tells them how the gods and goddesses were made, which was never really made clear in Supernatural. It was clear that these gods and goddesses existed, but we didn't know how they fit in the hierarchy of Heaven and Hell and everything else. Except that they did seem to coexist because of the “Hammer of the Gods” episode, where they're all gathered together to try to figure out what's going on with Armageddon. But in this season 15 episode, the Goddess of Luck says that:

Goddess of Luck: God created the world, but you know who created us gods? You did, you humans. Sort of. When you apes first climbed down from the trees, you didn't pray to Him: you prayed to the sun, the womb, the rain, and the stars. At first, the Creator was furious. How dare you not recognize his beneficence? But soon enough he birthed us – Ra, Anu, Hera, Mixcoatl, and all the rest.
Dean: Why?
Goddess of Luck: Why? *scoffs* Why? To take the blame. Bad harvest? Stillborn child? Our bad, not His.

Chrisha: Within “The Gamblers”, Fortuna, who is the Goddess of Luck, the human name that she was going by, the alias, was Moira–

Catherine: Was it?!

Chrisha: –which is the name for the Greek fates. So it's just really interesting the way that “The Gamblers” keeps popping up. And then there's like these little tie-ins, because we were just talking about how in the last episode it was reminiscent of, “Don't play his game, make him play yours,” which is the line from “The Gamblers.” And, yeah, it's just fascinating how these little tie-ins keep happening. 

Catherine: Yeah, and a lot of people would say that fate and luck are very, well, two sides of the same coin, I guess, if we're gonna go into that kind of imagery. ‘Cause she did use coins. Is luck fate? Or is fate luck? For some people, I think they're inter-exchangeable. That's something to definitely ponder, for sure.

Chrisha: Yeah, when I was looking up Il Soarta, trying to understand what that was, the word where that came from, it's Latin. And the definitions are one, fate/destiny, and two, chance/luck, so…

Catherine: Oh! Okay!

Chrisha: So yeah, you're exactly right. *laughs*

Catherine: Nice! That's always very reassuring, that I’m not just pulling stuff out of thin air. *chuckles*

Chrisha: Nope. So how do we feel about the idea of vampires worshiping gods?

Catherine: I think it makes a strange sort of sense. Because it's not just any god; it's a god that's looking ahead to the future. And what do vampires have if not unlimited futures? So I think the future would become very important to them. And because they live a long time, the consequences of their actions would have long implications. It specifically says in this episode that:

Diana: It told them which humans to turn, who should die next, and who should replace them to ensure their success. 

Catherine: So, it's really all about governing themselves, and figuring out who's going to be good for their nest, and who's going to be good for leadership, and all of that kind of stuff.

Chrisha: Mm-hmm. I think I was surprised because the idea of a vampire worshiping anyone or anything felt very strange to me because they're so very arrogant.

Catherine: They seemed to be very self-involved. But, I mean, they did basically worship the Father of all Vampires. So I think that is a part of their makeup as a species. They have that capability to bend the knee, I guess. 

Chrisha: So other than the alpha – which I always took to be like a god, yes, but more like a father-type like lineage, you know, like an ancestor kind of thing. Just, like, the origin. But monsters having gods is not a typical thing, right?

Catherine: Yeah, I think the closest that we got to it before was Eve, who was the mother of all monsters. And she was sort of worshiped, but I think it was more of that kind of ancestor kind of reverence that you're talking about with the vampires.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. It is interesting that you brought up Eve, because they carved this from a rib:

Diana: The Ursitoare told Il Soarta that if they sacrificed enough blood to them, they'd be rewarded with a stone carved from their ribs.

Chrisha: Which is a very Adam and Eve thing. Bringing fate and gods into vampires and to monsters, it was just like, “Wow, okay, we're getting real deep here. Like, this is getting very complicated.” And even just the acknowledgement that fate has a different meaning for the undead, I'm like, “Okay! Like, hold on! Are we introducing a whole new class of fate here to play with?” Because, man, that's a sandbox. Yeesh. Which I just hadn't considered. And our characters from Supernatural are not undead, they are just dead, but still pinged a little. Is fate going to be different now? Is there going to be different possibilities and implications which yes, I'm reaching, because I'm making everything about Dean. *Catherine laughs* But I own that.

Catherine: It is a different idea, because I think in a lot of lore around vampires, it's like they're the antithesis of Christianity, of church, right? And that's why crosses repel them in other lore.

Chrisha: Oh, yeah yeah! 

Catherine: And holy water. I don't know why it was stakes through the heart that would do it, but I think there was something to do with, like, holiness of different trees. Anyway, in traditional stuff they would burn in the light because light represents brightness, God, good. I think that's part of why it may be jarring for them to be worshiping fate, because we've seen them as the anti of religion. And here they are kind of following this religious path. But also I think, you know, just generally monsters don't tend to worship much.

Chrisha: Right. They worship themselves. 

Catherine: Yeah, they're destructive and they usually just want to end the world. *laughs*

Chrisha: To your point, though—and this is kind of shifting the conversation just a little bit—these vampires did seem different in other ways from Supernatural’s vampires. Like I wrote down that they looked more like proper vampires. They were kind of more animalistic and batty. Like the one was jumping on stuff and crouching and things like that. And Carlos did use holy water, which―

Catherine: You caught that! 

Chrisha: ―we don't … We haven't seen that before.

Catherine: Right. So that was one of the big things that I noticed. At first, it seemed like stuff was really lining up for the first time, with the monsters from Supernatural and the monsters from The Winchesters. Because we've been talking over the past few episodes about the differences between the djinn and the differences between ghouls and the fact that there are zombies there. And there weren't supposed to technically be zombies, like zombie zombies, in Supernatural. But this one was the first one that kind of seemed to line up at first. So John in season one, episode 20, “Dead Man's Blood”, says:

John: Most vampire lore is crap. A cross won't repel them, sunlight won't kill them and neither will a stake to the heart. But the blood lust, that part's true. They need fresh human blood to survive.

Catherine: And in The Winchesters, it's a very similar echo of the way that he speaks. Here, John says:

John: First of all, vampires are nothing like they are in the movies. The sunlight and dead man's blood can stun them, but a stake to the heart won't kill ’em. The only way is with a good ol’ decapitation.

Catherine: So there's a lot of crossover there, both in the presentation of the facts and in the crossover between, you know, we know that dead man's blood is a thing that they use in Supernatural. And that sunlight is not fun for vampires in Supernatural, but it doesn't kill them. They don't stake them; they decapitate them. So all of that seems to be in line, right? And then came the holy water. And I was like, “What?!” 

*both laugh* 

Catherine: And I think it was so fantastic and magical that it took me a minute to be like, “Wait, these aren’t demons. 

Chrisha: *agreeing* “Waaaaaaait!” 

Catherine: “These are vampires.” I don't think we ever saw a vampire being hit with holy water in Supernatural. They went to such efforts to procure dead man's blood when they had holy water with them all the time. So I don't think it worked. I think if it did work, they would have been using holy water all the time instead of dead man's blood.

Chrisha: Yeah, ‘cause they could make that themselves. You know, they blessed water―

Catherine: Exactly.

Chrisha: ―so, yeah, that’s weird.

Catherine: Yeah. So to me, this was, again, another sign that there's something different about this place. And again, I think that my vote is for it being an AU. That's what I'm guessing. I keep making that argument over and over again. I'll probably be wrong, but that's where I'm going with all of this.

Chrisha: I mean, there's definitely something. Like, something's off. This is a funhouse mirror. Like it really is. And even the sunlight and dead man's blood: Dead man's blood takes them out. I mean, it doesn't kill them but that incapacitates them essentially. I always got the sense that sunlight was not their preference, but it wasn't like if they were put out in the sun, it was going to be like they were with dead man's blood. 

Catherine: No.

Chrisha: So I felt like comparing those two also just seemed weird. I don't know.

Catherine: Yeah, it's the difference between “sunlight won't kill ’em” and “sunlight can stun ’em” between those two universes. One sounds a little bit less intense than the other. So yeah, I agree.

Chrisha: Continued mounting evidence that this is just not quite what we're used to. That this is just not quite right.

Catherine: Mm-hmm. And again, that continues to echo the feeling that we have in the finale. 

Chrisha: Yeah, it really does.

Catherine: Again, I’m wondering if all of this is intentional. If we’re meant to feel this way because something is coming that's going to make everything make sense in a way. I would love for the finale to be addressed, it would be amazing. I don't know if they'll do that but, at the very least, there's a central mystery here that needs solving.

Chrisha: Well, and Mary at some point, in a very Dean-coded kind of way, the apothecary Diana is saying, “once this reveals your fate, it's sealed”. And Mary's response was: 

Mary: There's always another way. 

Chrisha: So this consistent rejection of fate, this consistent rejection that just because a bad thing is fated to happen that it's going to happen. I just… Ugh, I can't help but take hope from it. And I'm trying not to, but it's not working. 

Catherine: Yeah, I’m right there with you. It's hard not to hope. I think hope is a good thing most of the time. But we have been burned so badly with Supernatural and the things that we hoped for. I think for you and I, because we were on a public platform saying, “I think it's going to go this way” and we did have hope and then it was dashed, I think that made it even more of a deep wound.

Chrisha: Mm-hmm. And we just put so much effort into understanding how well things were going to tie together, and then it drove off a cliff.

Catherine: Yeah, and it didn't make sense the way it drove off a cliff. I try not to hope too, but it's hard, man.

Chrisha: Well, even in this episode:

John: Hope looks good on you, Campbell.

Chrisha: It's like, “Ugh, stop it!”

*both groan and then laugh*

Chrisha: Stop it!

Catherine: Yep, yep. Ow. *chuckles*

Chrisha: Mmm, well, did you have more on the monster of the week? Or do you want to move on to the vault?

Catherine: I think before we move on to the vault, I would just like to acknowledge the fact that the opening scene of this episode was doing a real homage to season one, episode 22, “The Devil's Trap”, where the Winchesters [i.e. Sam, Dean, and John] get hit by the semi truck. 

Chrisha: Yeah, I can see that. 

Sam: Look, we still got the Colt, we still have the one bullet left. We should just start over, all right? I mean, we already found the demon onc―
*smashing glass and screeching metal*
*silence except “Bad Moon Rising” by Creedence Clearwater Revival playing, growing in volume*

*transition into “Cadillac” by Lassie playing*
Armored Truck Driver: Pour me some of that, would you? And remind me why this couldn’t wait till the morning.
Armored Truck Guard: Someone needs what’s in back in a hurry, I guess. Here’s to time and a half. 
*music plays, screeching tires*

Catherine: There's a similar song playing in the background. There's a similar front end to the tractor trailer and the armored truck. And sorry, Baby, but there's a similar front end to the station wagon. 

Chrisha: *laughing* There was, yeah. There was, I noticed that!

Catherine: Both the truck and the tractor trailer were driven by an older, mustached guy. And the opening on the moon I saw as sort of a nod to the fact that “Bad Moon Rising” by Creedence Clearwater Revival was playing during “The Devil's Trap” scene. But what they did with it was, when you have an homage, you have a certain set of expectations that it's going to follow through a certain way, and instead they inverted that. So the victims are actually the people in the armored truck, not the people in the station wagon. 

Chrisha: Interesting. 

Catherine: You can tell they're having some fun working with those parallels and contrasts from the original show. Even when it's not a major plot point, the old series is still doing a lot of cool work in the new series, which I love.

Chrisha: Yep, agree.

Catherine: Also, when Mary says:

Mary: He looks more like a hunter to me. He’s not a bad-looking one, either. *pause, then Mary laughs playfully*

Chrisha: *sighs*

Catherine: And in season four, episode three, in the beginning Dean says:

Dean: Mom is a babe. I'm going to Hell. Again.

*both laugh*

Chrisha: *laughing* Why?

Catherine: It’s just like, “Stop!!!” 

Chrisha: Why do they keep doing this?

Catherine: *pained* Why?! That made me laugh. But let's get to that main scene because I think that's going to take up most of this episode of our podcast.

Chrisha: Hmm, yes.

Catherine: Let's set the stage. John is running with his mom from these vampires, who have broken into the clubhouse. And they lock themselves into this room. It's dark; they can't really see anything. This whole way through, he has been trying to avoid places with red carpet–

Chrisha: Unsuccessfully.

Catherine: Unsuccessfully! While-while seeming, like… 

*Chrisha laughs* 

Catherine: They seem oblivious to all the red carpet around them, but whatever.

Chrisha: It's fine. 

Catherine: It's fine. Exactly. And then Millie being the person that she is, who's really handy with stuff from her mechanic work: she would be familiar with wiring and cars. She's able to rewire the lighting in the room. Turns it on and the whole room is red carpet. *laughs* 

Chrisha: Because of course it is. 

Catherine: Which was fantastic. Like, you saw it coming a mile away, but it was still such a great reveal moment. And I was like, “Ha, ha, ha, yeah, of course.” They're locked in the room with no exit with red carpet. And then the vampire comes to the door and is pounding on it going, *dramatically* “You cannot escape your fate, John! Nothing can save you!” And I was like, “Are you f***ing kidding me?!”

Chrisha: *giggles* Right?! Like … So we're going for subtle this week, is what we're doing. Geeeeeze.

*both laugh*

Catherine: Chrisha, I was just like, “What is happening? What is going on?” And I went on a whole ride during this scene. So I'd like to hear your thoughts before I go into mine. Like, what were you thinking as this scene was happening? *extended silence* *Catherine bursts into laughter*

Chrisha: Well…

Catherine: Yes?

Chrisha: Ha, unavoidable, I think—least for me—to not hear Billy in the words of this vampire. Couple of episodes ago, we had Death banging on the door. Now we have Fate banging on the door. And it's like, “Um, okay. All right.” This vampire… Did we ever know his name? 

Catherine: Probably, but I didn't write it down. 

Chrisha: *overlapping* I don’t think so …

Catherine: I just called him the lead vampire.

Chrisha: So this vampire is banging on the door, talking about:

Lead vampire: You cannot escape your fate, John! Nothing can save you!

Chrisha: And I'm just thinking of Billy:

Billy: Come on, Dean. You can't escape me.
*sound of metal scraping against concrete from Billy’s scythe*
Dean: *groans in pain*

Chrisha: They're running through the halls, Dean and Cas, just the same way that Millie and John here are running through. And then they get locked in and then, you know, the banging on the door. I'm just like, “Okay, like, how many times first of all, are we going to run for our lives and then be in a room where Death or Fate is banging on the door?” Because, like, still a little raw, folks. Like … Like. We’re still… still a little vulnerable with this particular setup.

Catherine: And we'll be clear in case anyone is missing the other scene that we're referencing is when John and Mary are trapped in a room with the Akrida coming at them. Right before her dad shows up and saves them, and they kiss in the room, right?

Chrisha: Mm-hmm. Yep. And so then in 15:18 “Despair” on Supernatural when Cas does his big love declaration, it's just all… it's all very similar. I also thought it was weird that—and I know this is a stretch and it's fine just follow my brain around where it goes—that I was taking notes through the episode, I was like, “You know, Millie really reminds me of Bobby.” And then we get to the end and it's John and Millie. And, you know, the finale of Supernatural was Dean and Bobby. I was like, “Mmkay, it’s fine.”

Catherine: I hadn't gone there. I'll have to sit with that.

Chrisha: Well, I mean, it's a stretch. I get it. I was just … It was bizarre to me that… that's my brain was already on Bobby. And then we're here and now it's on “Despair” but it's also on the finale because it's… John dies. Like, John dies, we see it: as it was fated. You know, “As it was written, so it shall end” [quoting the tag line from the promotion for S15 of Supernatural]:

Lead vampire: There you are.
Mary: John! No!
*sounds of feeding*
Lead vampire: I told your little friend: Nothing can stop Fate.
*sound of Mary being thrown*
Mary: *groans*
Lead vampire: You’re next!

Chrisha: And it was that, but it just… that wasn't all of it. That wasn't the context, as John said. And then they bring him back. What we thought we saw that was fated wasn't real, even though it was framed as fate. It was still subverted.

Lead vampire: *makes gagging/choking noises*
Mary: What the…?
Millie: Dead man's blood. John knew it was the only way to weaken him.
*Mary yells; vampire is decapitated*
Mary: What did he do?
Millie: What he always does. Something stupid.
Millie: Kill you? Are you insane?
John: I told you you weren't gonna like it.
Millie: I don't only hate it, I refuse to do it. I’m not―
John: Hear me out, Mom. In my vision, I saw that vampire bite me in the neck. He saw the exact same thing. The only thing is, neither one of us got to see the full context.
Millie: What do you mean, context?
John: Remember what we read? That dead man's blood can stun a vampire, right? So, if I'm already dead when he bites me, it'll weaken him long enough for you to get out of here alive.
Millie: *protesting* John!
John: And if Mary gets back here with everybody else, you guys can restart my heart. 

Chrisha: And not only that, but we're also doing this with vampires, which is again, on the nose, because Dean was killed by vampires. And we're using dead man's blood as the catch here. Which, for those of you who did not sit through our just excruciating… excruciatingly detailed analysis of the finale [of Supernatural], one of the points was that the vampires fed on an already dead man, which should have taken them out. 

Catherine: Yep. 

Chrisha: So we're talking about subverting fate, we're talking about things not being what they seem, we're showing our main hero being dead and then, just kidding, he's not. And doing it while using a fundamental misuse of canon that happened in the finale. 

Catherine: Uh-huh. 

Chrisha: Cool. Cool, cool, cool. Okay.

*slightly hysterical laughter from both*

Catherine: All of this after Jensen recently was like, “Oh, I didn't like the way that Dean went out. I didn't agree with that at all. I thought everybody knew that,” kind of deal. Yep. It's very loud. 

Chrisha: Yes. Yes, it is. 

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

*snickering continues*

Chrisha: And then we get to kissing. But like, *laughing* is there something that you wanted to talk about before we get to kissing? 

Catherine: Well, I went on a whole emotional journey. Because the scene with Mary and John in the locked room with the Akrida was so “Despair”, with the ending that we wanted to happen, that I was like, “Okay, well, they've done it.” 

Chrisha: Yeah. Yeah.

Catherine: They've done it. They've made the statement that they wanted to make. And then this happened, and he's locked in a room with Millie. And I was like, “Oh, no! Is this retconning the ‘Despair’ scene to make it about family instead of romance?”

Chrisha: Oh, boy, I didn't even go there.

Catherine: Yeah. I went on a whole trip. And I was not handling it well at all. *laughs* 

Catherine: Because John says to Millie:

John: My fate’s already sealed, but yours isn’t. You could survive.

Chrisha: Yeah, that was very Cas.

Catherine: That was such a Cas line, yes.

Chrisha: Yeah! I was like… My notes say, “Now he's paralleling Cas with his mom? What the hell?” *laughs* So, yeah, I’m there.

Catherine: I’m like, “Are they retconning ‘Despair’ to make it platonic?” And I was like, “I hate everything about this.” And I was getting really upset about it. And they have the:

Millie: If this doesn't work, I'm gonna kill you twice.
John: Okay, no more feelings.

Catherine: as they're hugging each other. And I was like, “Is this meant to, like, mimic Dean blue-screening and not able to talk about his feelings?” Where John's like, “I can't talk about feelings any more.” And I was just like, “What is happening? I will burn all of this down.”

*both laugh*

Chrisha: This is one of the true benefits of watching live, so that I cannot pause and spiral. I think I would have, actually, now as you're saying this. Like, I didn't get there because I didn't have time. But, yeah, if I had time, mm-hmm.

Catherine: I did. I was pausing it and going, “Breathe, Catherine, breathe.” Trying to take notes. Everything's caps. It's like… *chuckles* And then it's love that brings him back, right?

Chrisha: Mm-hmm.

Mary: *kisses John, then sobs*
John: *gasps for air*

Catherine: And we get the big kiss again. And I was like, “Oh, they were freaking faking us out.” 

*Chrisha laughs* 

Catherine: I hate them 

Chrisha: *whispers* But thank you. 

Catherine: I hate them but I love them. But I hate them. Urgh! Robbie Thompson, we just need to talk. *laughs*

Chrisha: Yes, because it ended with the kiss because of course it did. 

Catherine: Right?

Chrisha: Like one of those like, we're so in it that it's like, “Oh, my god, what are they going to do?” But like if you zoom out and you just think about this kind of scene―

Catherine: Right?!?!?

Chrisha: ―of course it ends with a kiss. 

Catherine: RIGHT!

Chrisha: Because those kinds of scenes end with a kiss, which is why “Despair” was so–

Catherine: “What?”

Chrisha: “What the Hell just happened to me?”

Catherine: “He's gone!”

Chrisha: “Somebody smash their faces together. What’s happening?!”

*both laugh*

Catherine: I mean, the least The Empty goo could have done on the way out is just like a little face smash. Yes! 

Chrisha: A little something-something! “Come on, you know you wanted it, too.” You know she was sitting there with the popcorn.

Catherine: Yes!

*laughing and snorting* 

Catherine: Oh my gosh. It's John who just died. So he's playing the Cas role in this, even though he's wearing green and Mary's wearing blue. They're, like, opposite-coded and I was like, “What is going on?” And it was… but it was John as Cas who came back from the dead. Who was, you know, saying the Cas words: “My fate’s already sealed, but yours isn’t, you can survive.” And then he comes back and we have… Mary is the one who initiates the kiss.

Chrisha: And she also says:

Mary: *sobbing* No, no. John, please don’t leave me. Please. 

Catherine: *breathes* Oh, God. I…

Chrisha: Yeah. You’re welcome. Come sit with me and my pain. *laughs*

Catherine: My brain skipped over that part. Thanks, Chrisha. *laughs*

Chrisha: Mmhmm. You’re welcome.

Catherine: Oh, dear. The reason that I got excited about the fact that Mary initiated the kiss is because she's so Dean-coded in that moment. And I think it would be Dean who would need to initiate anything with Cas at this point, if we ever got there. And then as if it wasn't enough that we got this huge, passionate kiss between Mary and John, in the next scene, we get two guys kissing passionately. And I was just like, “Oh, are you kidding me?!” Like, we… they're… they’re… they need… They want us to know so badly that it wasn't good enough to have one scene. But they had to have two scenes: “Here you go. Here's the thing that you've been wanting on Supernatural for 15 years that you never got.” It's just, “You're welcome.” I was just like, “Are you kidding me?!”

Chrisha: Like, I-I am still processing, right? Because the Mary kiss was not just her kissing him. It was her essentially declaring their relationship publicly because everyone was there. Also, it was framed as the most obvious thing in the world. Like, they're trying to keep it secret and Lata and Carlos are like, “Oh, my God, thank you!” Like, “Finally!”

Carlos: See, I knew it, and I’ve been telling her this whole time.
Lata: I. Told. You.
Carlos: No, I told you!
Lata: I told you.
Carlos: I told you.
Lata: Liar.
Carlos: I told you.
Lata: Get that knife out of my face. I told him.
Mary: *laughs*

Chrisha: Which is again, Sam in, like, so many fanfics that I have read over the years of him just being like, “Thank god!” 

*Catherine cackles* 

Chrisha: Like, Carlos and Lata’s reaction was… it was just perfect. It was just perfection. It was like, “I told you! I knew it! I knew it! I knew it!” And… perfect. Anyway. So there's that piece of it.

Catherine: It was fantastic. And I've just got to say, Carlos and Lata, before they say anything, they just kind of gesture … like wildly. 

Chrisha: *laughing* It was so great!

Catherine: But the closed captions had them talking on my version. 

Chrisha: Oh, what are they saying? 

Catherine: They are… They are saying, “I knew it!” Like both of them at once.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. Well, accurate! They're both very smart, observant people. 

Catherine: Exactly. So of course they knew!

Chrisha: It was not news to anyone.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

Chrisha: So we have Mary like, basically publicly acknowledging her feelings that she was worried would change the dynamic of the group. And I suppose it's possible they still may. But she received nothing but support. Right? Everyone was just happy, Mary says, “We're stronger together with no secrets.” It was such a wonderful turning point. And then I want to sit with the Anton/Carlos kiss for a minute. Because the context here―

Catherine: Oh God, it killed me.

Chrisha: ―is that they went on a date and Carlos’s feelings were so strong that he got scared―

Catherine: Yep!

Chrisha: ―and wanted to break up because it was too much―

Catherine: Yep!

Chrisha: ―and so he didn't say anything.

Catherine: Yep! *screams*

Chrisha: But then, with this second chance, he's not scared to say what he wants. And then they kiss. These two men on screen on a Supernatural television program with executive producer Jensen Ackles. 

Carlos: Um, listen. Um, I'm sorry I never called you after our date.
Anton: Don’t tell me the big, bad hunter got scared?
Carlos: Maybe? *laughs* Yeah. But, um, I'm not afraid to ask you on a second date tonight.
*both kiss*
Anton: I'll have to check my schedule. But I'll let you know if I’m free.
Carlos: Fine. I deserved that.
*Carlos and Anton laugh*

Chrisha: Do you know how long I had to stare at a wall? To process that? Like, are we kidding with this?! Kay.

Catherine: Anton, the way that he handled it, I've got to say, coming back to the show for a second, “Don't tell me the big, bad hunter got scared.” 

Chrisha: *makes stifled noise*

Catherine: I was like, “Oh, Anton. I love you even more.” Like, he knew it. He knew it. And he said it in such a teasing but loving, gentle kind of way. I was like, “I'm done for.” Just have him back all of the time. Please. I just adore him.

Chrisha: Yes. He's great. 

Catherine: Oh, he's so wonderful. *laughing* “I’ll have to check my schedule but I’ll let you know if I’m free.”

Chrisha: “I deserve that.” Yeah, you did. You sure did. And, like, the thing about the big, bad hunter getting scared, I would say that about Dean. 

Catherine: Yes! Dean got scared. When Cas said, “I love you,” he got scared. He didn't know how to respond. And so he couldn't say anything. Just like Carlos didn't say anything. I mean, like, they could not be paralleling more.

Chrisha: Like, this was a choice. They could have let the Anton thing fall away. They could have put it in a different episode. 

Catherine: They could have had it off screen. He could have been having a wonderful time with Anton off screen.

Chrisha: The choices that went into this. It's the John and Mary makeout episode and we also get two men kissing on screen in a Supernatural franchise for the first time, after just a wildly on-the-nose scene paralleling both “Despair” and the finale. I just… Okay. Yeah, okay. I'm glad you saw it too. Because, I mean, obviously the internet exploded. But like…

Catherine: Yeah, I am so sad that I missed that. But, uh, yeah. So… *laughs* I’m sorry, it’s just… I… Him pounding on the door, pounding on the door. Being like, “Your fate is sealed!” I'm like, “What? What? What?!” Urgh.

Chrisha: Absolutely bonkers. 

Catherine: “It was always meant to be this way.” Gah!

Chrisha: Yep. Yep. 

Catherine: *snorts*

Chrisha: Yep. “Come on, Dean. You can't escape me.” Yeah. I just―it―uh―Mm-hmm.

Catherine: Mm-hmm.

*prolonged silence*

Catherine: Anyway, yeah.

Chrisha: We're just down to the inarticulate sounds at this point, so…

Catherine: We are. We're at the inarticulate noises portion of your episode, brought to you proudly by Robbie Thompson.

Chrisha: *chortles* Just wanna talk. Call me.

Catherine: This man, though. I mean, he's running a good television show.

Chrisha: *makes inarticulate sound* He's gonna make me, you know, pull all my hair out of my head, but yes.

Catherine: *chuckles* It's good, good stuff. I mean―

Chrisha: It is.

Catherine: ―if you had asked me at the beginning of the summer if I was gonna be this invested in this television show, I would have told you, “Absolutely not.” 

Chrisha: Mm-mm. I wasn't hate-watching it, but I wasn't not hate-watching it. 

*both laugh*

Catherine: I think by the time we actually got to it airing, they'd done enough PR, talking about the John Winchester thing, that I was less afraid than I had been. But I didn't see myself loving this show and getting this passionate about this show. And being able to see the kind of depth that I'm seeing in this show in its first season. I really hope that they're able to keep it going because this is the kind of writing that I could watch forever.

Chrisha: I know, fingers crossed. This is… It's just so fun. 

Catherine: It really is. 

Chrisha: So shall we transition to music?

Catherine: Sure. It was another Jay Gruska week. For the episodes, they seem to be trading off and on with each other.

Chrisha: Which, I could hear him in it. There were a couple of times I was like, “Ah, that feels nice. That feels … that feels like home.”

Catherine: Absolutely. He does that bluesy guitar thing―

Chrisha: Mm-hmm, he does.

Catherine: ―when he ends scenes on kind of a lighthearted note, he does that. Or where they're feeling kind of embarrassed, he'll end on that note. They did have the “Dean Theme” and the “Family Theme” happen. 

*“Americana” by Jay Gruska plays*
Millie: Don't ever do that to me again.
John: That I can promise.
Carlos: Thank you, Anton. 

Catherine: I was like, “Ah, you’ve pulled out the big guns.” That's another thing I've got to say. Like, it took him a while to come back.

Chrisha: It did.

Mary: What did he do?
Millie: What he always does. Something stupid.
*extended sounds of Millie and Mary performing CPR; Millie counting to 5 as she pushes on John’s chest and Mary breathing into John’s mouth, interspersed with gasping and sobbing noises*
Millie: *desperately* Come on! Please!
*Mary breathing into John’s mouth as they continue to perform CPR*
Millie: One, two, three, four, five!
*sounds of CPR continuing, before finally stopping*
Mary: *sobbing* No. No, please, John, don’t leave me, please. *Mary kisses his lips*
John: *gasps for air*

Catherine: I think that was meant to be another *sighs* echo. They worked on him for quite a while. That's rough stuff; they went there. They made us hang on that edge like, “Oh, well, we know he shouldn't really die, but wait now. This is taking a while.” I think that was important and well done. It made it feel more real, I guess. The episode gets its name from a song called “Cast Your Fate to the Wind” by Vince Guaraldi and Carel Werber. Vince did the orchestral part first, and it was originally a jazz piece. And then Carel later gave lyrics to it. And then it took off, and it was covered by a ton of people. The earliest American version I can find is by Shelby Flint. I believe that was in 1965. Just like the way that the Winchesters saying, “Fate is what you make it,” is kind of oxymoronic, casting your fate to the wind is itself kind of oxymoronic. Leave your fate to chance, you know, tossing it into the wind to let the wind take it where it will, that’s something that's less ordered and more chaotic. I was like, “That's an interesting title!” So I sat with that for a little bit. There were a few lyrics that kind of stood out to me. It’s another song about loss; we've been getting a lot of those from Dean. A lot of songs about loss from Dean in this series: It’s the driver who picks the music. And since Roxy’s now gone, I think we can say all of the music is his pretty much, unless there's somebody who physically plays it as a different song within the show. But the metaphor is one of sailing. So it talks a lot about:

*1966 version of “Cast Your Fate to the Wind,” sung by Shelby Flint, plays*
I shift my course along the breeze, 
Won’t sail upwind on memories…

Catherine: The idea is that they want to avoid the past because the past is painful.

*1966 version of “Cast Your Fate to the Wind,” sung by Shelby Flint, plays*
The empty sky is my best friend… 

Catherine: ..because that means that they're not being carried anywhere where they don't want to go. But it's at the end that both you and I were kind of like, “Ow.”

Chrisha: Ow. 

Catherine: So it says:

*1967 version of “Cast Your Fate to the Wind,” sung by Johnny Rivers, plays*
Time has a way of changing 
A man throughout the years,
And now I’m rearranging
My life through all my tears,
Alone, alone, alone.

Now I’m old, I’m wise, I’m smart.
I’m just a man with half a heart.
I wonder how it might have been
Had I not cast my fate to the wind.

Chrisha: *whimpers*

Catherine: I’m just like, “Pardon me, Mr. Winchester!”

Chrisha: “Excuse me? Excuse you!”

Catherine: “I did not give you permission to rip out half of MY heart!”

*both laugh*

Chrisha: Was the episode not enough?!

Catherine: I know, right? So again, to be clear, this is a song that we don't hear in the episode, it's just the title of the episode. But we've been examining those alongside the ones that are, under the idea of them being a sort of a paratext. Paratexts are things that surround the actual text and sort of shape them with a wider meaning. So that can be like the foreword in a book or it can be the title of a something, like this is, which alludes to something else that has its own words and associated meanings that you can then think about in reference to this other work. And so that's what paratext is. So we don't hear it, but it's definitely shaping things. It ends with, “I wonder how it might have been, if I hadn't cast my fate to the wind.” *drums fingers on table*

Chrisha: This show is killing me. Like, it's killing me!

Catherine: I'm trying to think about this in terms of Dean accepting his fate and like resigning himself to his fate and dying. Where would your brain go there? ’Cause my brain just kind of gets stuck up on how awful that was.

Chrisha: The whole song seems to be kind of in direct contrast with everything that happens in the episode. This is all talking about that you resign yourself to fate―or this person did. And then they've been alone and with half a heart and are wondering how it could have been a different way. And then in this episode, they defied fate. Everyone got together, everyone had their moments, their kisses. Is the idea that the way things went for Dean is wrong and maybe it's time for him to fix it. 

Catherine: Is this Dean kind of reflecting on his own story as he looks at somebody who made a contrasting choice? I think that was one of the things that was most hard for him. It was, “This was the way it was always going to turn out,” or whatever it was that he said. And that throwing his fate away, rather than saying:

Millie: Fate is what you make it.

Catherine: You make something like you do. You work, you hold, you fight―you know. To make something is to fashion it. And in this version, he's throwing it away, he’s not holding on to it. Like, saying, “It's too much, so I won't try to control it.” I don't know. It's a very, it's… This is a deep song, Chrisha. I'm not sure my brain is up for it! *laughs*

Chrisha: Yeah, I mean, I guess I see the song as maybe the reflection that Dean did, potentially. And now he's back on the ground, knocking over dominoes. So now, you know, he is making his own fate, as his family does. So it could be that this song is kind of the reflection that then spurred him to action. That's what I've decided to go with, ‘cause that's more hopeful.

Catherine: *laughing* Yes! I think that's wonderful.

Chrisha: *laughing* You’re like, “But I'm not there.”

Catherine: No, no, no, I think that's a wonderful way of looking at it. And I mean, I was looking at other things that you throw to the wind, and typically people say throw caution to the wind, which means to like, stop being careful or overly careful and just like, do it. I think maybe that's where Dean is. He's just like, “Okay, I accepted my fate. I take that back now. Now I'm going to do.” I just hope it's not just him doing a job, you know what I mean? I hope that this ends up being more than about him taking on one last job for Heaven. 

Chrisha: Yeah. I'd be surprised if it is. This is just too introspective and too Dean-coded, the whole show, for it to just be a job.

Catherine: I agree. It’s gotta be more. The other two songs that were actually in this episode, I didn't really find a lot in there.

Chrisha: Yeah, they seemed kind of on-the-nose, right? Just like very direct. 

Catherine: They did. I mean, the first one that happens in the opening scene with the armored truck, they're listening to “Cadillac” by Lassie, which is such an obscure garage band from Phoenix, Arizona from 1969 that I couldn't even find a wiki about them. There's just nothing other than that they existed and that they were a band from Phoenix, but that's not even agreed on. Some places were like, “They're from Tempe, Arizona.” And the lyrics in that are just basically, “All I want is you, the person that I'm in love with, and I'll leave everything else behind for you,” which is very tropey love stuff. “If I have you then I need nothing else,” and they're literally talking about how, you know, they’ll leave behind their Cadillac, their amplifier, their guitar, all of the things that they love for this girl.

*”Cadillac” by Lassie plays*
Forget about my Cadillac car, 
Forget about my amplifier and my guitar, 
All I want is from this life, baby, is you

Catherine: Which is kind of the opposite of what was happening, I guess, in the actual story. Nobody and nothing was being left behind. They were building something together and including community in it. And I think that's a much healthier version of love, as we said at the beginning of last episode. So maybe that's the only connection that I can find there. Whereas the vampires who are in that opening scene, all they want is that amulet and nothing else is worth anything, except for that. They will do anything to get it. I guess that's how it kind of fits in. And then the second song takes place during the fight scene with Mary and the vampires, which again, was amazing. It's called “Rats” by The Kinks. And it's basically about how people can change and become not themselves, as part of society. So the idea is that society can change people and how people can look at each other and not see them as fellow humans. So at one point, the song says, “See that face, man, look at me. / He's much too selfish to see. / Once he was warm and kind. / Now all he got is a pinstripe mind.”

*“Rats” by The Kinks plays*
See that face, man, look at me. 
No, he's too selfish to see. 
Once he was warm and kind. 
Now he’s got a pinstripe mind.

Catherine: Which, pinstripe suits, business… Like, working for the man, working for the almighty dollar. So that's kind of the idea for that song. Which again, I think that speaks to the vampires because they have changed. They look human, but they're not human. As you said, these ones seemed particularly inhuman. And they are only able to follow one purpose, which is to find that amulet and get what they want and follow the path of that amulet that the amulet set forth for them. They're not able to think independently without it. The funny thing about that is that Lata said that earlier in the episode, rats are her mortal enemy. 

Chrisha: Yeah, she wants to get a cat. *laughs*

Catherine: Uh-huh. Which I was like, “Cas would like her.” He thought that they were short a species. 

Chrisha: Yeah, I remembered that same thing. Guinea pigs and interrogating cats. Like― 

Catherine: That’s right! 

Chrisha: ―both Cas.

Catherine: “Should we get a cat? I feel like we're one species short.” That was when he was in Insane!Cas. Who's frickin’ adorable. 

Chrisha: *laughs* Oh, so funny. 

Catherine: Just made me giggle that she said that about rats and then we had a song called “Rats” in episode. The only other reference to rats I could think of was the rats in a maze and being kind of trapped in fate. That was the big thing from season 15 that Dean was really wrestling with: “Is anything that we've ever done free will or is it all driven by fate?” These vampires are literally trapped in fate, but that's all they want. That's all they see. They are the rats in the maze. But, like, willingly so, as opposed to Dean who is trying to fight and find a way out. These guys have embraced fate. So again, drawing that distinction between free will and fate, so it kind of fed into that overall theme. Those are my thoughts on those two songs. They aren't a lot and they're not super-deep, but that's what I came up with.

Chrisha: Yeah, well, you went way farther than me, so well done!

Catherine: Thank you. I tried! Thank you again to everybody who has joined our Ko-fi. You [referring to Chrisha] have been a little bit more present the past a little bit. It looks like you’ve been having some fun over there, all of you. And I've been trying to kind of semi stay away because I don't want to get spoiled, so I haven't been going into every chat. But I've been trying to pop my head in here and there, and everyone looks like they're having a good time. 

Chrisha: We are theorizing and tangled up in our red string, trying to figure out what is happening.

Catherine: Fantastic. I can't wait until I get to join more thoroughly. I think that's it for today.

Chrisha: Yeah, I think we did it. We did the thing.

Catherine: I think we did too. We did the thing! Woo! *giggles* You can message us and stay up to date with the latest on our Twitter page, which is @TheFangirlBiz, that's B-I-Zed or B-I-Zee, depending on where you live in the world. We will see you again next time. And until then, carry on, Wayward Friends. We love you! Bye! 

Chrisha: Bye!

Outro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze

Um, and… *rumbling noise* What the hell was that?! That was really loud. I think several things happened at once. Um, okay, we will see you again next time…
*muffled thump*
Chrisha: *laughs* Just let us end!
Catherine: *laughing* I know!
Chrisha: Like, we’re so close!
Catherine: I literally have, like, 10 words to say!
Chrisha: Come on!
Catherine: *laughing* I’ll say that previous sentence again because I'm not sure if I got out the "time" before the door slammed.