40: State of the Fandom - Post Finale Edition

*S15E20 SPOILERS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE*




Chrisha and Catherine are back with an all-new State of the Fandom (SotF) episode, after a much needed haitus! In this podcast, they discuss this transitional period for the fandom and their own personal journeys post Supernatural's finale, and they hint at what's coming next for The Fangirl Business!

CONTENT WARNING: While it is not the focus, this episode does touch upon the series finale for Supernatural, and briefly mentions some of the triggers from it. 

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Transcript

Disclaimer: The information presented in this podcast is intended to be for entertainment and educational purposes only. It should never be used in place of advice given by a mental health or medical professional, or as a substitute for mental health treatment. If you're struggling with a mental health issue, please seek professional help.

*Intro Electric Guitar Theme Music - “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze*

Chrisha

Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Fangirl Business. 

Catherine

I'm Catherine. 

Chrisha

And I'm Chrisha. And today, after a very long podcast hiatus, we are back..

Catherine

Yes

Chrisha

...to talk about the state of the fandom and kind of the state of us… the state of the podcast.

Catherine

Yes! That's a good description. 

Chrisha

And yeah, I guess just sort of process the journey… the emotional journey that we've been on for the last couple of months. We're recording this January 23, 2021. And yeah, the last episode that we put out, which was our discussion about the finale, was December 1. Yeah, so it's really been a while. 

Catherine

It has been a while. Yep. I don't feel bad though. ‘Cause like, we've needed the time, man. 

Chrisha

Yeah. I know, for me, I really thought that we processed a lot in that finale episode. And I thought that we were going to be able to take a breath and then roll into what we had been planning. And um… uh-uh. No. I could not bring myself. I know we talked about wanting to do further analysis of the finale, which we still plan to do. But the idea of rewatching it… I just couldn't do it. I was like, yeah, maybe tomorrow. And that turned into two months of... well, maybe tomorrow is gonna be the day! That day still has not come, just for the record! *laughs*

Catherine

Yeah, I was just going to say! *laughs* And as of this recording, right, that still hasn't. 

Chrisha

No, no, it has not!

Catherine

Which is totally understandable and totally fine. And I get it. I do. 

Chrisha

There's been a lot that's happened in two months: fandom wise, world wise, we had holidays, we've had... just… there has been no time to rest, emotionally... 

Catherine

That's right.

Chrisha

...let alone try to really heal. It feels like every time we have some sort of lull, something happens. 

Catherine

That's right. 

Chrisha

You know, either something fandom related that's painful or something world stage related that's painful or something personal, you know, comes up to fill the void.

Catherine

Void of, like, some sense of peace. *laughs*

Chrisha

Yeah. 30 seconds of quiet that I might’ve found. *laughs*

Catherine

Oh, this is...this is called pain laughter. *laughs* Ooh my gosh. Yeah. I think it's interesting, because I had much the same feeling. I was like, “okay, we'll take a beat and we'll be good to go.” And I was really motivated. And, yes, and then it was just like, no. And I think it's not surprising, but it's surprising. I think the depth of grieving for me has surprised me, even though I expected to be grieving. You know, before we even had the finale, like I knew it was gonna be hard. But like, the depth of grieving that's been happening and having to actively work on healing and recovering. Like, how much energy has had to go into that has surprised me. 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

Even though it's not really surprising, given everything. So I think for both of us, it's just been trying to keep our heads above water. And for the most part, that's sort of been happening... sometimes I feel like I'm swallowing a lot of water in the process. But yeah, yeah. So it's been a bit of a break. But we're, we're ready now. And Chrisha, you often want to sort of historically place things in time when we record. So I thought maybe that would be a helpful thing to do. 

Chrisha

Well, I'm going to bottom line it because we could spend a series of podcasts trying to process what's happening in America right now, and its relationship to Supernatural, because everything always does. But yeah, as it relates to Supernatural, we had a runoff in the Senate for who was going to control the Senate, which was a big deal for American politics. I won't get into why, because no one cares. But Stacey Abrams, who is SPNFamily was a big part of that. So the Supernatural family was a big part of that. The day that we learned that the Democrats won both of those elections, and so we were going to take control of the Senate, and also the House, and also the White House, there was a coup attempt here in the United States, which was deeply traumatic. So we didn't get to celebrate that win because it immediately turned into terror. And then two weeks later, Biden was sworn in as president. So as an American, I think that there has been so much societal trauma over the last four years that the anxiety related to that is not going to heal overnight. So it's going to be kind of a process of trying to let our guard down. I think that that's going to take time. And I think that, in some ways, Supernatural and healing from Supernatural is similar. Because it's something that has been so important for so many of us for so long, to be hurt by it is something that's been just really hard to understand and come to terms with. 

Catherine

Yeah.

Chrisha

And when you have both of those at the same time, neither of which are in our daily lives that we can interact with, you know, that we can just, like, sit down and talk it out. 

Catherine

Mmhmm. 

Chrisha

It's tough. 

Catherine

It is. 

Chrisha

It's really tough. And that's the thing about Supernatural right now is, we'll get into a lot of the challenges, shall we say, that the fandom, especially Destiel shippers have been dealing with for the last couple of months, but the discourse of... “it's just a show, and you can't be traumatized by a show”…. The exhaustion of that? Of hearing that?

Catherine

Yep. 

Chrisha

Is… man, because Supernatural doesn't happen in a vacuum. This has been such a hard year. 

Catherine

Yes. 

Chrisha

You know? The last 12 months have been just horrific. And if it was a normal - whatever that means, so air quotes on that - year, and a normal time, things are fairly typical, I think what happened with Supernatural would have been really difficult…

Catherine

I agree

Chrisha

...for me to handle. 

Catherine

Yeah.

Chrisha

But perhaps not catastrophic in the way that it has been. So.

Catherine

Yeah, I had a similar thought to that. Regardless of how it ended, there would have been grief and grieving, right? If it had been the ideal ending for everyone, there still would have been grief and grieving because something that was important to us was over. And we've talked before on the podcast about how so many of us deeply identify with different characters, and feel that they're representative of our own struggles and our own journey. And so saying goodbye to characters that mean that much in a story, that means that much would have been difficult, even under ideal circumstances, like you say, even if everything in the world was copacetic. And even if it was an ideal ending for everybody, and everybody was happy, but, like, neither of those things happened. 

Chrisha

Right.

Catherine

And so I think with the ending that happened, for the people that are really struggling with it - and we talked in our last podcast about all of the different embedded triggers within the story and why that was so difficult for so many different people - with the ending and with those triggers, I think the recovery process has been much, much, much more complex. And then there have been a bunch of key issues that have happened since then, that have kind of additionally complicated it. 

Chrisha

Mmhmm. 

Catherine

So I think that it makes sense that people are struggling with it. You know, I'm sure even for people who loved the ending, it's still been difficult, because there is that loss, right? But for people that were triggered by it, who were hurt by it, then there are those additional layers. And, and so yeah, it's hard. Grieving complicated stuff is hard. Because there… it's not just sadness, there's also hurt. And there's also anger. And there's also, I think, a sense of betrayal and abandonment. So there are all kinds of different layers of feelings. And I don't know about you, but I've been finding I kind of like, feel different things on different days more?. So some days, I'll just be like, really, really sad. Other days, I'll just, I'll feel frustrated or angry. Other days, I'll have that sense of betrayal really surface again. It's a roller coaster of emotions, and that’s sort of depending on what else is going on, I guess, in my day and in my life. But yeah, what are your… what are your thoughts? 

Chrisha

I think that the grief and loss that we experienced with the show, in context of a year filled with grief and loss because of COVID, because of loss of experience, loss of access to our friends and family, lack of access to our coping skills, just so, so much grief, so much loss...

Catherine

Yeah. 

Chrisha

And then, you know, having the show on top, I think we always knew it was gonna hurt. So for people that were really happy with the ending, they still lost a show that was important to them, and that they loved. And for those of us that struggled and continue to struggle with the finale, there's a different type of loss of the show, because it's no longer a safe space. And that's… I haven't been able to watch, not only the finale again, but I haven't been able to watch, like, an episode of Supernatural since it ended. 

Catherine

Yeah. 

Chrisha

And that's rough. 

Catherine

It's hard. 

Chrisha

And that's, that's hard. 

Catherine

Yeah. And that's something that I've seen people say kind of over and over and over. I've just seen that pop up: “I've lost my safe place.”

Chrisha

Uh huh. And I think that's not just the show. I think that's the fandom too, because there's been so much arguing, and there's been so much infighting. And there's been so much judgment, I think, because of all of the different reactions, like, so many people are having big feelings. And I think it's hard for people to understand other people's big feelings, and to not take them personally. 

Catherine

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe let's get into some of the big, kind of, issues post finale, that have been really complicating things. And I think one of the big ones that you mentioned is just that: the emotional reaction from everybody was so big to the finale. At first, it was just kind of people who were really hurt by the finale sharing their stuff, and people who didn't understand the hurt sharing their stuff, and both sides feeling anxious about these different feelings. And then there were, you know, because there are always people that are going to be jerks, and just like, jump in and stay stuff that's mean to people that they disagree with. Like that's just a thing that happens anywhere you go on the Internet. But I think that there was that initial wave of really big feelings, and then as we've gone on, and as people have moved forward or haven't moved forward, there's been sort of like a second wave of infighting that's happened, as people are continuing to grieve and moving on. 

Chrisha

I think that a lot of folks experienced the finale very differently. And I think it's been very hard for folks to talk about it. It's been hard for a lot of people to listen to hear. Because it's so personal. And I really think that that's what it boils down to. I feel like one of the biggest arguments that I've seen, that I continue to see, and probably will continue to see, is the arguments surrounding: “you just didn't like how it ended,” or “you're just mad that your ship didn't sail” - versus the idea that the ending was problematic that it had had problematic mental health messaging, and that there was a lot of invalidation and erasure of…. god, so many things. I don't even know how to finish that sentence. 

Catherine

I mean, there was. There was ableism, there was misogyny, there was stuff in terms of trauma from abuse. There was mental health stuff. There was, you know, suicidal ideation, it just like... it did, it went, it went on and on and on and on. And it was, it was much bigger than a ship. 

Chrisha

Yeah. And I mean, there was queer erasure, and, you know, found family erasure. And so for a lot of people, it wasn't just about, I didn't like how it ended. You know, like, for me, personally, I'm not going to spoil the ending of any other show. But an example for me is How I Met Your Mother. I watched that show for years. I loved it. It made me happy through a lot of hard times. I watched the last episode and was like, “Huh? Okay, well, that... was a choice.” And then I just moved on. Like, it wasn't problematic. It wasn't anything wrong with it, per se. I just didn't get it and thought that it was a bizarre way to do things. 

Catherine

Okay. 

Chrisha

That's different then how I felt about the finale of Supernatural, which I felt had some really dangerous messaging in it. And so, you know, I think for people that have had that feeling or that reaction to the finale, where they associated with Dean or with Cas, and felt like they were erased like Cas was or like Eileen was, or that they were told that the only peace that they're going to get from their mental health issues is through death, you know, people that really saw themselves in Dean and Cas. I think it's hard to see people enjoying content that we personally feel invalidated or erased by. 

Catherine

Yeah.  Yeah. 

Chrisha

And that doesn't mean that you're not happy that someone else has enjoyed it, and is feeling joy. 

Catherine

Exactly. 

Chrisha

Doesn't mean that you're mad at them. 

Catherine

Right. 

Chrisha

It's just really complicated. 

Catherine

Right! 

Chrisha

It's not just like, you liked something, and I didn't, it's… there's…. it's deeper than that. 

Catherine

Yeah. 

Chrisha

And I think that that has caused a lot of frustration and complication on both sides. 

Catherine

Yes. 

Chrisha

Because I think that for some people that loved it, there's then that feeling of guilt. 

Catherine

Yeah. 

Chrisha

That, that they're enjoying something that has hurt the people that they love. 

Catherine

Yeah. And the feeling like they can't talk about it. You know, or like, they have to repress their joy or whatever. I think you just summed it up. It's, it's intensely complicated. I am friends with people that enjoyed the finale, and I know that it's caused them distress. And that's hard for me to see that my pain has caused them distress with their enjoyment of it. You know, so it's, it's all very complex. And we're humans, man, we're messy. Like nothing is clean cut. 

Chrisha

Yeah.

Catherine

But I still adore my friends who enjoyed it. But it's been a difficult thing, I think for both parties to navigate. Right? And I really appreciate the people who have hung in there with me through all of my, like, BLAAAA. 

Chrisha

Yeah.

Catherine

You know what I mean? Because I think it's important to be able to express pain, and to be able to express hurt. But at the same time, I want to acknowledge that that can be hard for the people who aren't experiencing that. Because like you say, there's a closeness to this story, I think that everybody who's deep into the fandom feels. And so that can be difficult, I think for people who genuinely loved it to hear people say, oh, but, you know, *cringe noise*. I think that can feel hurtful. So it is, it's just like, it's very complex, and it's very messy. And I think under the best of conditions, this would be a tough, tough thing for people to navigate. But then we also have COVID. And we also have isolation from our friends and family because of COVID. We have the stress of you might get sick at any time, and for people in America you had just the utter horror of January 6, and the the ongoing tension and fear of what was going to happen during the lead up and during the inauguration, you know, so it's, there are a lot of different stressors that people are going under. And this has been, like, a long term stressor or, like, the not okayness of the Trump administration had gone on for four years. And then you cap it off with COVID. 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

And then you cap it off with violence. And I think the thing that everybody had feared most - it happened. 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

And so then you have all of these other stressors that people are reacting to and feeling. And that's not going into personal stressors, right? 

Chrisha

Mmhmm. 

Catherine

So it makes sense that this has all really been hard for people to navigate. And, and that there has been a lot of reactivity from people. So yeah, I think, you know, like, I keep trying to remind myself - and some days I do better than others - that we're all kind of daily experiencing our own worst days right now?

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

Our own worst day is pretty much every day at this stage. 

Chrisha

Mmhmm. 

Catherine

And so I'm trying really hard to try to extend grace to other people, as I'm able to, as I can, and like I said, some days, that's, that's easier than others. But yeah, I think the ongoing tension within the fandom - that infighting and the attacking - has been really hard to see. And I think a lot of people have found it really discouraging. But one of the things that I found really helpful over our really long hiatus while production was shut down, was - I think you were the one that saw it - was, you know, one of the, the old timers, the long haulers was like, this is really normal - because there was a lot of stuff that happened then, too - this is really normal. And like the fandom just kind of does this when there's a break. It's not very, like, healthy or happy for anybody. But this is the thing that happens. And so I was kind of expecting this. But I think that one of the things that's giving me encouragement on that front is that I'm also seeing this as a time of us, like, finding our feet, and figuring out what the new fandom is going to look like. And one of my cats has decided to get into a paper bag at this stage of the recording. So just that's if you hear noises in the background, it's not that I'm crumpling up pieces of paper and throwing them around. It's my cats. 

Chrisha

Sure sure.

Catherine

You never know, like, I mean, I could be it could be a good stress thing. 

Chrisha

You could have lived alone all this time. And just like makeup noises in the background of the podcast for [bleep] and giggles, right? *laughs*

Catherine

*laughs* I could see that, right?!

So I think part of this is growing pains. And I think that there have been some really good things that have been happening in the midst of all of this that I want to come back to in a little bit. But I see reasons for encouragement for the future, as we're kind of trying to find our ways of fandom post show.

Chrisha

I do think that we struggle as a fandom when we don't have something to do. 

Catherine

Yes. 

Chrisha

And I think that that has been a huge contributing factor to all of the struggle and negativity lately. We don't have a lot to focus on. A lot of the actors have been pretty silent. Or if they're not silent, it's because they are promoting something. 

Catherine

Right. 

Chrisha

And so that, I think, has gotten a little difficult in certain ways. 

Catherine

Yeah. 

Chrisha

I think the overall lack of, we don't have something to do - things pop up every now and again, which is cool - but like, we don't have something overall to do. But we also don't have a lot of communication going on. Certainly not about the end of the show. 

Catherine

That's right. Absolutely. That was one of the other key issues that I wanted to touch upon when we were talking about this is that there has been a profound silence surrounding the finale from every level. I think the most that we got was sort of very careful stuff from Jared and from Misha during that Creation con - the online one - that happened right after the finale. And they were being very, very careful about what they said. And then that was... that was it. So there's been basically complete silence from Jensen. And not a lot from Misha or from Jared. And then like, and nothing from anybody else. There's been no official statement or no official word. I think people were thinking at some stage we'd get something sort of official, but that's not happening. And, and some of the information that we have gotten has been, like directly conflicting with information from other people. Which makes it harder. I think for people, like, if there was something straightforward that was shared about what happened with the finale, who was supposed to be doing what, when, where, how, and, versus what ended up happening, or what changes in the script happened over time? I think that would be helpful for people. But because we're getting nothing and because what we have gotten sometimes directly contradicts things that we've gotten elsewhere, it just makes it very difficult for people to find a resolution and move forward.

Chrisha

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that as a fandom, we are very used to having open dialogue with the actors, because we have cons all the time. 

Catherine

Yeah. 

Chrisha

And, you know, when you go to a Creation con, or you go to these cons overseas, anybody can kind of ask whatever. They don't, they don't censor that. They don't pick and choose, you know, it's it's, you get picked - your name drawn out of a hat to be able to ask a question to Jensen, Jared or Misha, and you ask what you want to ask. And so I think we're, we've had all of these years of this open dialogue. And now when we need it the most, it's gone. 

Catherine

Yeah. 

Chrisha

And I think that that has created this perfect storm of just not being able to understand. And that lack of understanding makes healing difficult. Makes finding peace with it difficult. Because there's just so much what if-ing. So, you know, and that's, and so I think there are a lot of us, and I would include you and I in this, that are very analytical... 

Catherine

Yep.

Chrisha

...that want to understand things. I mean, that's literally why we have a podcast, is so that we can, like, talk about things and process things and analyze things that - we're academics, that's what we do. And a lot of people in this fandom are the same way. That's why we love the show, because there's so much to look at and play with. And in the absence of show, people have been trying to use that same analysis and understanding to kind of try to understand the process and what happened. And..

Catherine

But I think it's fundamentally unanswerable because of the lack of information and because of the silence. 

Chrisha

Yes. 

Catherine

And that's where, where people are struggling. 

Chrisha

Yeah. That and, and when people disagree, you know, like, “oh, what I've been thinking about maybe, maybe something like this happened, or maybe maybe they were trying to do something like this, and maybe it just didn't land.” There's not a lot of safe space for that. There tends to be a lot of backlash, even to just like, the brainstorming, or the or the analysis of it. So it's just yeah, it's super complicated. I know that for myself, I have never really been one to block people or to mute people because I really love the discourse. I love all sides of the discourse. But it's gotten so nasty, that I haven't, I just couldn't, you know. The discourse is no longer enjoyable. It's… I've seen it be extremely cruel. 

Catherine

Yeah. 

Chrisha

And that I think it's disheartening too…

Catherine

Yeah.

Chrisha

...not only in just seeing it or having it be targeted, but also during this transition. You know, we've been talking about the fear that the family is going to fall apart for, I mean, a long time on this podcast and fandom has been talking about it for a long time, and so when we see this kind of vitriolic communication or reactions or back and forth, whatever, it's disheartening. It's hard to trust that it's going to be okay when we see… or at least, for me, that’s how I experience it.

Catherine

Well, yeah, and I have like, and honestly, like, in the last week, I've seen a couple of people that I know talking about how like they're on the fence about whether they want to stay part of the fandom and I had somebody direct message me and be like, “just a heads up, like, I've decided I'm leaving, because I can't deal with it.” And I was like, “that's fair. But you want to still talk to me?” And they're like, “yes, please!” And I was like, “cool beans! Okay.” *laughs* Um, but yeah, people, people are being driven off. And that's really sad. So, you know, I think one of the things that you and I have talked about wanting to do is to continue the podcast to kind of continue to create and engage with what we love as a part of this fandom, and the things that we love about the fandom is the caringness and the kindness and the interconnectedness and the creativity and the valuing of ideas and analysis and inspiration. And so I think for me, I think that's part of why I want to keep doing what we're doing is because I want to continue to cultivate a space where that's possible for people. And so that's a big part of wanting to continue doing this with you, because I think sometimes we have to create what we want, you know?

Chrisha

Absolutely. 

Catherine

One of the key issues that I've been seeing, as we've sort of been going through the shockwaves of the finale and trying to find our footing, again, is that people have different grieving styles. 

Chrisha

Mmhmm. 

Catherine

And often, those grieving styles can be in direct conflict with each other. 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

So for instance, I'm a grieving style where I don't like seeing things that I find upsetting, like visually seeing things will upset me. So for instance, I still find it really hard to see the picture of Cas’ face during his love confession to Dean, because I'm still really wrestling with the fact that that love was never reciprocated on screen, and that he died without hearing affirmed to him, all of the lovely things that he told the person that he loved. So for me, I find that image really, really painful to see. But it's EVERYWHERE! All the time! Because other people grieve by leaning into the thing that hurts them. 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

And trying to desensitize themselves from it, or trying to feel their way through the feelings by really engaging with it. Yeah. And so in this case, those two grieving styles directly conflict with each other. And that can make it really difficult for somebody who's navigating their personal grief, if they have friends or people that they follow that are grieving in a different way that can set them back or make it difficult for them emotionally. So I wanted to touch upon that, because I think that's something that, like, in general, as a society, we suck with grief.

Chrisha

*laughs* Uh huh.

Catherine

At least here in North America, like, we really suck with it. But I think sometimes there is not an awareness of different styles of grieving, and so I think sometimes people just become reactive. So you know, someone like me, for instance, I do have a really visceral reaction to that image. I could choose to lash out at the person who is sharing that image, but I try to understand that like, it's just a different grieving style, and that that's an important thing for them to do. But then how do I navigate trying to make my experience safe for myself? 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

And that's on top of, I think we don't have the resources of patience and tolerance that often we would have, just because we're like... our wells are dry! Like, our resources are stretched thin to begin with. And so I think a lot of people who normally would be like, “this is bothering me, but I can deal,” like, I think a lot of people, like, we just can't deal right now. So there is a lot more reactivity that's happening. Does that make sense, Chrisha?

Chrisha

Absolutely. Yeah. 

Catherine

Okay. 

Chrisha

Yeah, because for me, I think, just to relate it directly… the picture of Cas is incredibly comforting to me. Like, seeing his open love face makes me just really, really happy. Because it brings me back to the feeling that I felt during that scene, which was absolute joy. But literally, any image from the finale is hard for me to look at, especially Sam and Dean in the barn. I have a visceral response to that. There's been some Bernie memes set in the finale that I've been able to laugh at. But for the most part... Bernie Sanders, by the way.

Catherine

Yes! *laughs* 

Chrisha

Having him sitting there instead of Bobby? That was funny. That's funny stuff. 

Catherine

I have not seen that! *laughs* Someone did that? 

Chrisha

So good. Yes.

Catherine

With his little mittens?

Chrisha 

Yes! He’s sitting in the chair, and Dean's just...anyway.

*both laugh*

Chrisha

But pretty much anything else from the finale, I will literally physically flinch at this point. But my style of grief is to help people understand their feelings. It’s the therapist in me, right? Like, I want to, I want to help people understand what they're feeling. And I want to help people understand what other people are feeling. So I want to advocate, you know, raise awareness on things. And so I did a lot of that around the finale time, I was pretty active in helping to raise awareness on mental health messaging, and queer erasure and things like that. Because I thought that was important, while also trying to encourage listening and kindness. I mean, that's what I was trying to do. But it's extremely hard for me when I inadvertently hurt someone, or upset someone. And that, of course, is going to happen on social media in a fandom setting, when you're being vocal, that's going to happen. And so at some point, I kind of hit a wall, and I just wasn't able, I just didn't have the emotional strength anymore to try to advocate and try to be as open and inclusive as I could, because you know, somebody was always gonna be upset. And I just didn't want to hurt anybody accidentally, I didn't want to add any kind of fuel to the fire at all. And, you're talking about wells being dry, the work that I do is really intense. And I also have two small kids whose mental health is also not exactly stellar at this point, after a year of being locked down. And so I have had to learn to be very mindful of where my energy goes. So I can see all kinds of issues and I can see all kinds of miscommunications that I wish I could jump in and help with or or raise awareness on or, you know, educate about. But I, I can't fight every battle. I can't, I can't do it all. And so I've had to be frustratingly mindful about what I go all in on. And unfortunately, that's had to be more day to day stuff more than fandom stuff, because, you know, it just has to be. It just has to be that way. 

Catherine

Yeah, exactly. So lots to navigate. And I think the last point that I wanted to raise is that there's also been some stuff that's been really tough from people who were involved in production or post production, or, you know, actors or former actors on the show that have been saying or doing things that are deeply problematic. And that includes up to targeting individual fandom members in different ways. Some people were searching for their name and then just talking to random people. And I personally got a threatening DM from somebody who was involved in the show at one point. I think particularly for a fandom that's full of women, and therefore statistically more likely to have been victims of harassment and abuse and just unacceptable behavior in the past, I think that's been really triggering for a lot of people. I know for me, you know, I'm a survivor of an emotionally abusive and sexually coercive marriage. And the behavior that I was subject to from this individual was very similar to the kind of threatening behavior that I experienced with my ex-husband. So I think that there has also been stuff from people who have been involved in the show in some way that has just been inappropriate. Upsetting. Some of it's been more political. Some of it's been more personal. But I think that people have experienced legitimate, traumatic, and upsetting things. And so I didn't want to ignore that aspect of things, either. Because that's also all, kind of, like, happened post finale. And it's been from a bunch of different people and, and levels of involvement in the show. 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

But I think that's something that it's important to acknowledge, because it's definitely affected fandom members. And there have been ripple effects from that. So I wanted to touch upon that briefly as well. 

Chrisha

Yeah, I'm so sorry that that happened to you, because it's so inappropriate, and so unnecessary. But, you know, I think it really has shown or at least for me, part of what I've seen lately in the last couple of months, or maybe I should say, what I've realized, is that we're all here as a fandom because we love the show. And so the SPNFamily was created surrounding this love of a show, and it was cultivated by the cast and crew of the show. There was leadership there that helped bring us together to help us form these bonds and relationships and to feel like a family. And, you know, I don't want to downplay the importance of that, because it genuinely is why we're here. But at the same time, I think it's become really clear to, at least to me, that the cast and crew, when it comes to the community on social media, I guess we could say, they visit, but we live here.

Catherine

Ooooo, yeah. 

Chrisha

And so I think that the fandom used to be a bit more reciprocal than it is now. I think that the actors put a lot of energy in through making the show, through going to cons, social media engagement, things like that. And then the fandom put in energy through being active on social media and watching the show and going to cons and being creative. And I think that the energy has shifted, and I think that the fans are doing a bit more of the heavy lifting right now. 

Catherine

Yes.

Chrisha

And I think that the weight of that is getting pretty heavy. Also, we are trying to create a safe space for us. 

Catherine

Yeah.

Chrisha

Because we're here every day, right? Like we're on Twitter on a regular basis, we're on social media on a regular basis, because that's... can't go anywhere else! You know, we can't, we can't… *laughs*

Catherine

Accurate. 

Chrisha

Yeah. And so then having a safe space in fandom becomes that much more important, because we don't have access to other spaces. This social media world is our world right now. It's where we, where we live. And so I feel like I've been feeling that a lot, too, that feeling that the fans are trying really hard just to understand and to grieve, but also to create safety in a fandom that was created and is sort of led by people that that we love dearly, but just aren't here all the time. And so it's just tough. 

Catherine

Yeah, you know, I think part of the issue here too, and I'm just realizing this as you're, as you're saying this is that, I think, because of NDAs and so on, there's just not an ability for the actors to talk about the show right now in the way that they used to be able to? I don't know, but I get the sense, given the silence from everyone. Is this fair to say that it's likely that there were NDAs and I feel like that may have shut down some of the communication that we're used to, to try to give people the benefit of the doubt, you know? 

Chrisha

Yeah, I mean, I think that the last Creation con, I remember Misha saying like, “oh, am I allowed to say XYZ?” So I feel like that made it seem like there are things that they're allowed to share and things that they're not allowed to share. So.

Catherine

Yes, okay. Thank you. 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

So I think the sense is that there is some limiting of what can be talked about. And that, in combination with the lack of cons, in combination with the fact that people have new projects, we're used to being able to talk about the show, and having people that are faves talk about the show with us, even if it is just on social media. It's funny. I've found the stuff that Misha has been posting, which has been political has been really good and exciting. And I've been excited to be a part of it. But yesterday, he posted a clip of himself in the car from the French Mistake, that scene where he's, like, “ever had the feeling that there's somebody behind you in the car?” And then instead of the angel, it's Bernie that pops out.

*both laugh*

Catherine

And it's just like, not only was it funny, but my god, it was cathartic to see something show related! 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

I laughed, like, somebody was like, that was probably Charlie that did that. Whoever was Charlie whoever, like, thank you!

Chrisha

It was amazing. I laughed so hard. And I needed it, because it was just such an intense day. And that was like the perfect, perfect thing at the perfect time. Oh, my god.

Catherine

Yes! But it was show related! And I've missed that. I've missed being able to see show stuff and talk about show stuff. Behind the scenes things, you know, just like, you know, all of that, I think, I think it's been hard. So it's like there's this moratorium on avenues for discussion of the show that we love with the people that we're used to talking about. So absolutely. The fandom has had to take on this, this work and it and it's been labor. Like, making sense of things that hurt you is labor. 

Chrisha

Yeah.

Catherine

It's emotional labor. Creating safe places in the midst of really difficult circumstances with a lot of hard, strong feelings. That's, that's labor. That's emotional labor, and, and logistical labor. And so yeah, I think the fandom has been shouldering a lot at a time when we would really love… um… I just got emotional there.

Chrisha

Awwww.

Catherine

Yeah, I think it's a time when we would really love to have our guys just sit us down and talk to us. And that's not going to happen. So we're having to find our own strength at a time when a lot of us don't have a lot.

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

And so, so that's, that's hard. And, and I think it's, it's important to realize that it's, it's hard. And I think the other thing that I just wanted to talk about is like, the work of grieving is also work.

I think a lot of the time, a lot of the time, as human beings we want to grieve on a schedule, and we want to grieve when it's convenient. And grieving is inconvenient. It happens when you don't expect it. You know, my dad, as a minister, did a lot of work with grief. And when my grandmother died, he sent this email out to our family and just was like, “you know, let's get rid of the notions of grief and have a chat”. And, and he was talking about things like grief can hit you months or years later. When you don't expect it. It can be triggered by a smell, or a sound or an image and kind of come out of the blue, and if you don't work on it, if you try to bury it, it'll come out in ways that are not good.

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

So I wanted to touch on that. But I also wanted to touch upon the fact that grieving isn't always about a death. You know, we know, obviously, characters died, but the actors that portray them are alive and well. We know that. But there are a lot of different kinds of loss and a lot of different kinds of things that you can grieve. Even if there's something positive, like, you get a promotion, and move to a new department at your job, there can still be grief over what you're leaving behind. So grief doesn't always have to be about a person, it can be about a lot of different things. I've heard people who have, you know, people retire and can go into a state of grieving, because it's change. And, and I think change is always hard. So hopefully, that made some kind of sense. 

Chrisha

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think the other thing that helps me to keep in mind, too, is that we can also grieve, even if it's something that we chose. And so obviously, none of us chose to have Supernatural end. But the actors did. And we have no idea what they may be facing emotionally too. I'm sure that they're grieving also. 

Catherine

That's right.

Chrisha

And I think that we are all scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point, emotional energy wise. And I think it helps to remember that the actors, the cast, crew, they're human too. They're also in a pandemic, they are also dealing with a lot of losses, a lot of stressors, a lot of trying to figure out how to make it work. And, you know, we don't know what may be going on for them personally. And they are under a scrutiny that we are not. And so, just like I was sharing that I have had to sort of pull back, because being vocal about things was hard for me to do, because of the even slight negative impact that I might have. You know, it makes me wonder if they could be in a similar boat. I don't know. Like, I don't know. And at the end of the day, we don't know, which is what drives the anxiety. Because anxiety thrives in the unknown, it comes up with all kinds of possibilities. And so I think ultimately, it would probably be easier, in a lot of ways, if we could just understand what happened, even if it was some horrible… which, no matter what it was, it would be horrible for somebody, you know, it'd be like the worst case scenario for somebody. But I think that knowing would make a lot of things easier. But that's not a choice that we have. And so trying to find a way to accept that we don't have any control in this situation. To accept that we're probably not going to know a lot of things potentially ever, but certainly probably not for a while and trying to find some peace in that while the rest of the world is on fire... It's a tall order. And so for people that are struggling, still, you're not alone. And it's okay to struggle. 

Catherine

Yeah.

Chrisha

And I don't mean that to be like a cliched Facebook meme, but it genuinely is okay to not be okay right now. The world is on fire. We have been locked down for almost a year here in North America. This has been and continues to be easily the hardest year of my life. And I think that that's something that is shared by a great many folks. So realistic expectations for healing and grieving amidst a global pandemic. 

Catherine

Yeah. And just wanted to say you're not alone, in the sense that left you and I talked beforehand, and we're just both sharing, we're really struggling still. If that wasn't clear already…

Chrisha

*laughs*

Catherine

...that that we're, we're really struggling, and the show and the fandom and the finale and like we're, we're struggling with all of those things. And it's, it's messy. It's messy, and it's hard. And I think, you know, I think it's important to give voice to that…

Chrisha

Yeah.

Catherine

...and let people know, really, it’s, like… This is hard. This is hard. And under ideal circumstances, it would have been hard but like right now, it's hard.

Chrisha

These are not ideal circumstances. *laughs*

Catherine

Yeah, these are not ideal circumstances. No. *laughs*  But I think I wanted to kind of pivot here a little bit and bring up some of the things - the surprises for me that have been ongoing good in the midst of all of this hard stuff. And one of the things that has been an ongoing good that's been kind of a surprise for me is I've made all of these new friends since the finale. I’ve met some really cool people. And, I think I'm generally pretty friendly, but I've really connected with a few people, and had some really lovely discussions with them via DM and on main, and one of the things that's happened is, I've started a “fill the void” Supernatural book club. And I'm co-organizing that with a couple of really lovely people. So there have just been these new connections that have kind of happened out of the blue. And I was worried about losing people, to be honest. Before any of the finale happened, I was worried about people just moving on. 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

And instead, I've met some really cool new people. And a lot of it came out of the grieving. Several of the people who I've connected with I met because they heard our last episode of the podcast, and some others I've met because they were in a similar kind of emotional place. And we're talking about it on main and I was like, “oh, yeah, I feel the same way!” You know? So for me, that's been encouraging. Did you have anything that you wanted to mention? 

Chrisha

Well, I think that I will forever be in love and indebted to the fanworks community. You know, the artists, the fanfic authors save me on a regular basis. I have my Jackie Dee calendar next to my desk, which is all kinds of distracting, and I have not been able to watch the show, but I have been able to go back to fan fiction. And so it's been a nice way for me to enjoy the characters away from a place of pain, I guess. And so I've really been kind of branching out in terms of the authors that I read. And there's just there's so much good stuff in this fandom. They’re so good. 

Catherine

There really is. There really is. Yeah, I think for me, too, like, one of the surprises has been I also thought that I was going to... like I'm a tiny account to begin with. I thought that my numbers of people would just like plummet. And this is like, a really weird thing. But I've been consistently getting more interactiveness on my posts than I ever have. Have you been finding that? 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

Like people, I feel like people are actively looking for people to connect with. I think that's maybe the bottom line. Like, I keep getting new followers and I keep having, like, people that never used to comment on stuff commenting on stuff. Do you know what I mean? 

Chrisha

Well, I think the biggest surprise for me, honestly, was the reaction that we got to our finale episode.

Catherine

Yeah. 

Chrisha

I mean, it is easily the most shared, the most listened to episode that we've ever put out. 

Catherine

And we were frickin terrified, man, like, we were so nervous about recording that episode and putting it out there. And everyone has just been so kind and helped by it and sharing it and the numbers are still going up on it every day. And I'm like, wow, it's been literally almost two months. 

Chrisha

Honestly, though, the other thing I've been surprised by is people wanting to listen to old episodes of our podcast, because I remember you and I having a conversation before we recorded the finale episode where we were just like, should we just like delete it?

Catherine

Yes!

Chrisha

Like, do we want to just set it all on fire? *laughs*

Catherine

*laughs* Yes!

Chrisha

Like especially 19. Can we just, like, strike that from the record? *laughs*

Catherine

Uuhgggh we were both so… oh my gosh. Oh, crap, yeah.

Chrisha

Yeah, it’s been really nice that people still find value and comfort and joy and in those old episodes and reach out to tell us. I find that to be remarkable and really healing every time to know that it was a good decision that we didn't burn it all down like we considered.

*both laughs*

Catherine

Yes. I think one of the other joys has just been, I have some people that I would consider good friends on Twitter who loved the finale? And I think I mentioned it earlier, but they've hung in there with me. 

Chrisha

Yeah, same. 

Catherine

And that means a lot, because it is so messy and complicated. And I just, I really appreciate them for valuing me as a person, even when we have very different feelings about something. Because I think one of the things that's been happening is reducing people to a single thing. And judging based on that.

Chrisha

Yeah.

Catherine

You were pro the finale or anti the finale, and you can't be friends with somebody who was bla bla bla. And so I really appreciate the people who are on the other side of issues from me, but who still see and value me as a complex person who is more than one thing.

Chrisha

Yeah.

Catherine

Because I think it is really easy in fandom to make decisions based on one big thing. 

Chrisha

Mmhmm. 

Catherine

So I'm very appreciative of those people. And I love them a whole bunch. I think as messy as it has been, the fandom does continue to surprise me and delight me. We just had the Random Acts Day of Service….

Chrisha

It was amazing.

Catherine

...in connection, yeah, with the Biden inauguration. And I think the goal was what 10,000 meals? 

Chrisha

Yeah. 

Catherine

And it ended up being like 100 and something?

Chrisha

110,000 meals, yeah. 

Catherine

110. Oh, my gosh.

Chrisha

It was incredible. Yeah. And I, I feel like that was like the perfect example of giving us something to do? I think, recognizing that the Biden administration had reached out to Random Acts, and not the other way around, I feel like that was a point of pride for the fandom?

Catherine

Mmhmm. 

Chrisha

It was really lovely seeing, again, the power of the fandom to change the world. And I think that was a really important reminder to have at that exact moment in time that I appreciated.

Catherine

Agreed. And I think the fact that we're talking about the Biden administration, and Random Acts, and fandom, it's interesting how it all kind of comes full circle, because so much of what's been going on with fandom has been really tied to…. because we do have fans in the fandom who are politicians, and we do have these connections that have been made primarily through through Misha, but also through Jensen and Jared with cheering on and doing fundraising and all of these things for really great candidates, I think it's important to be reminded that our fandom is bigger than fandom, if that makes sense. *laughs*

Chrisha

We're bigger than the infighting. We're bigger than the arguing and the factions.

Catherine

Yeah

Chrisha

We really are a force for good in this world. And I really believe that considering we have Stacey Abrams and Cory Booker in the SPNFamily, the SPNFamily was instrumental in changing the face of American politics. So it's an incredible thing to sit with. I mean, Destiel trending above the Biden election will be…

*both laugh*

Chrisha

….it will always be something that I talk about, like, anytime anybody lets me talk publicly about fandom, I'm gonna talk about that somehow, if I can squeeze it in because it's amazing.

Catherine

Yes, absolutely. I think that's maybe a good place to kind of start to wind things down is, this fandom is, at its heart, truly an incredible entity, and a force for good. And we're finding our way right now. It's messy, it can get ugly. But I think, you know, often transitions are. We are in a period of transition. And transitions are hard, even under the best circumstances. So I'm trying to have patience with our progress and our finding ourselves and I find moments like that Random Acts Day of Service is really a great place for me to rest and remind myself mentally, like, this, this is who we are. This is who we are. 

Chrisha

This is who we are. This feels right. 

Catherine

Yeah, exactly. So along that note of transitioning and moving forward…

Chrisha

*laughs* Smooth. I like that.

Catherine

We - yes, thank you… *laughs* - I think we are in a period of transition and moving forward with this podcast. Some of you may have seen our announcement awhile back about coming soon, Reclaiming Supernatural. And we are transitioning now into beginning that work. But we have a little bit that we want to do first. Chrisha, do you want to talk about that really quickly? 

Chrisha

Yeah, so we have a series of episodes that are going to help us through an upcoming transition. And so the first phase of that... there's this episode, and then we're going to have kind of an announcement episode that goes deeper into some stuff. But we're going to spend some time deconstructing the finale, which I think we need to do. Like, I need to do it to be able to move past it. I know there's a lot of discourse, there's a lot of discussion, there's a lot of analysis, but I think that you and I need to sit down and we need to hash it out to help us understand why it doesn't work. Why we have so many problems with it from a storytelling perspective. I think we understand the emotional stuff, we've dug into that pretty hard. But, you know, to really, to do that storytelling analysis that we wanted to dig into. 

Catherine

Absolutely. 

Chrisha

And then we're going to transition into Reclaiming Supernatural, which is going to be a series where we rewatch the show with a perspective of 15 years, but we're going to add a little twist to it. And we will get more into that coming up. But it's gonna be fuuuuun. And I think we have some other, you know, some other stuff that we're thinking about that we're trying to incorporate. We've been tossing around the idea of a Patreon community, which you guys can sort of let us know if that's something that anybody would even be interested in. But we'd love to have a space where people that listen to the podcast that are part of the community can come and talk about episodes in a little bit more contained way than Twitter, and maybe have some cool special stuff that we also offer for folks. So that's something that we're tossing around. I think that we have some fun stuff coming up. I think the hump for us has really been like deconstructing the finale, like, trying to work up the emotional energy to break it down. But I think it's an important step for us anyway, whether people follow us and listen to that or not, obviously is up to everybody. And because everybody's in a different stage of grief, but I think we need to do it. 

Catherine

Yeah, I agree. The two of us, yes, we need to do it. We need to record it, and then we can put it aside and move forward. 

Chrisha

Mmhmm. 

Catherine

I think that's gonna be a really big help for me personally. 

Chrisha

We have a nice reward for getting through it. I think what's on the other side is gonna be fun enough to give us some motivation.

Catherine

Yes, I agree. Okay, I think we've reached the wrapping point. 

Chrisha

Okay. We're back on the horse! Yeah!

Catherine

Yessss! Giddy up! You can message us and stay up to date with the latest on our Twitter and Instagram, which is @TheFangirBiz. We will see you again next time. And until then, carry on wayward friends. We love you. Bye. 

Chrisha

Bye.

*Outro Guitar Theme Music - “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze*

Outtake: 

Catherine

 *laughs* Now I'm thinking cowboys. I just went to a completely emotional place with um... dress up.

Chrisha

*laughs* How about... I'll be your Huckleberry. 

Catherine

Yes! And dressing up hugely powerful beings in cowboy hats and then taking selfies with them.

Chrisha

*cackle* And then carrying them around in your wallet, like you do.

Catherine

That's right, exactly! Or if you’re the King of Hell, keeping a copy on your phone. *laughs*

Chrisha

*laughs* Oooooh I love it. So good.

Catherine

Yeah. Me too. Me too. Okay. *laughs*

Chrisha

Deeeeeeeean Winchester.

Catherine

Deeeeeeeean Winchester. That's right. Thank you. I needed this.

Chrisha

Oh, happy birthday Dean Winchester! It's his birthday tomorrow. 

Catherine

Oooooh!! *squee*

Chrisha

So we have to wish him a happy birthday!

Catherine

That’s right! Happy birthday, Dean Winchester. 

Chrisha

We love you.

Catherine

Alright. We… we do. We really do!

Chrisha

Like a lot. *laughs*

Catherine

*laughs* So much. Just… so much. Okay.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai