Dwell Differently
If you were our friend, and if we could look you in the eyes and see your struggles and know you fully, and if we could only give you ONE thing—we'd give you God’s Word. There is more power and love and truth in one verse than in a thousand other words. So, let us help you memorize God's words in a simple, easy way. We hope you'll love listening in while we chat about what our verse means, why it matters, and how it intersects with our daily lives.
Dwell Differently
Read the News through the Lens of Eternity // Nate Wells, The Pour Over
"We want Christians to have a healthy relationship with the news... But most Christians don't—it makes them really angry or really sad or really anxious."
— Nate Wells
Today's Episode: All month long we're talking about God's good plan for his people for all time. And today, we're heading into the newsroom with The Pour Over's Nate Wells. He walks us through The Pour Over's process and passion for reporting the news in light of eternity. He shares how knowing the end of the story gives us hope and peace when the world feels like it's falling apart. Nate also shares two stories of finding hope when his own world turned upside down. Whether you're a news enthusiast or seeking peace in turbulent times, you won't want to miss this story.
This month's memory verse: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." —Romans 8:28
Today's guest: Nate Wells is not one of the beloved witty writers at The Pour Over, he's just the business-y guy wrangling all the creatives. He made the typical career pivot from finance to a small (at the time) Christian newsletter. Now, The Pour Over serves over 1.5 million Christians in the US with politically-neutral, Christ-first news. He and his wife, Ari, have four kids.
Want to go even deeper in this month's verse? Study along with Natalie in the monthly Bible Study Membership. Get the first month FREE with the code: PODCAST.
If you love this show...support it by leaving us a review.
Links from today's show:
- Check out The Pour Over, for concise, unbiased news from a Christian perspective.
- A Place for You: Reframing Christian Womanhood, by Kendra Dahl
- The Sing! Hymnal, from Keith and Kristyn Getty (get it for 30% off with a free Crossway Plus Account)
- Someone to Believe In: Embracing the Savior Who Stays the Same When Everything Else Changes, by Courtney Reissig
- Made to Tremble: How Anxiety Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to My Faith, by Blair Linne
Follow Natalie & Vera at DwellDifferently.com and @dwelldifferenly.
Okay, fun fact about me. I have a couple hymnals that I occasionally read like poetry, and I'm very excited to tell you about this next thing. There's a new hymnal called The Sing Hymnal. It's written by Keith and Kristen Getty, who are award-winning hymn writers. It's a beautiful collection of both classical hymns and contemporary hymns designed to deepen our worship to foster unity among God's people and proclaim the hope of Jesus. Alongside those timeless hymns, you're also going to find liturgical readings and psalms paired with songs and also helpful indexes. Guys, this is a lasting resource for individuals, families, and churches alike. Not just people like me who like to read hymns as if they were poetry. And you can get your copy at crossway.org backslash Getty Hymnal if you want to get it for 30% off or else you can get it wherever books are sold. We'll have a link in our show notes so that you can easily get it. Hey guys, welcome back. It's Natalie Abbott. And today we are talking about a beautiful verse. It's Romans 8, 28. It's a verse that might be familiar to some of you, but we are memorizing it and meditating on it. All month long, it goes like this. And we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love him, of those who have been called according to his purpose. What a beautiful verse. And it's an amazing promise, and I'm excited to talk about it. But before we dive in, I want to introduce you to my friend, Nate Wells. Welcome, Nate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you. I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so the reason I asked Nate specifically is because I got to meet him Gosh, was it a year ago already? It was in May.
SPEAKER_01:In May. Oh. Okay. Well, no. I think we briefly met at TGC once.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yes. That's true. That is true.
SPEAKER_01:But then we got to hang out and chat a little more in May.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. We were at like a podcast. You called it the Podcast Mastermind. I called it a mastermind.
SPEAKER_01:I never liked that name
SPEAKER_00:because nobody there was that smart. It reminds me of Megamind a little bit, like that kids movie. So I'm like, I don't know if I want it to be a mastermind. And I don't feel like a mastermind. But I got to really hang out and get to know you better. And so you're the head of business for The Pour Over. And I feel like what a great verse to get to talk with you about. Like this is your job to inform people on all the things that are happening in the world, the good things, the bad things, important things. And you're telling it from a Christian's perspective. And yet like this kind of a verse is telling us that we know that in all things that God is at work, that in all of those things, the messy things, the hard things, you know, all of it. So can you tell me, before we dive into the verse itself, what made you be a part of the pour over? Like, tell me about your passion for telling the news from a Christian perspective.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, thanks so much for having me, Natalie. I was honored when you thought of me and asked me to be on here. And yeah, excited to chat about this. So my passion, I would even for me, I would broaden the scope a little bit on my passion of like, I desire for Christians to have a healthy relationship with the news. We say like, we want Christians to have a spiritually healthy relationship with the news, which like you probably observed, like most Christians don't, they over consume or it makes them really angry or really sad or really anxious. And so, yeah, that's my passion. And just to give like one, so we send an email and we'll have readers email back in, reader feedback. And like this story is what, energizes me every morning. And I think about this story so much is there was a girl that wrote into us and she explained like, hey, during COVID, during all the political division, my dad and me and my siblings, like there was this huge rift between us because we, I don't know if it was masks or whatever that they disagree on. And it got to the point where they stopped talking to each other. Like this relationship was severed between a father and his kids over the news. And she said, and I came across the pour over And you guys have been such a light to me to just give the news and then point me back to Christ. And she said, and I shared it with my dad. I didn't think he would do anything with it. And so her dad starts receiving the pour over. And then he sends one day, he sends a text that she showed us the text he sent. That was him basically in the group family chat, apologizing to his family for his pride. And in it, he... he didn't say this is from the pour over, but he used exact verbiage we did from our newsletter that morning. Something about how, like this is important, but not God of the universe important or something like that. And it was one of those where it's like, and then she said like, me and my dad have reconciled and like we talk now again. And it's like, whoa, God is using this little newsletter, like for people to have better relationships with the news, which is like healing. And so obviously not all of our readers experienced that by any means. But it's just, that's one of the things that for me, when I think about the passion with the pour over, it's like, man, there is hurt in the world right now. And as it specifically relates to the news. And yeah, that's such a fun story. But to give a little more context on why the news, Jason, who's been my best friend for a long time, he's the one that was the founder of the pour over. And I mean, he just loves the news. He could read the news all day and just have fun with it. And it doesn't really affect him negatively. He loves reading the news and then explaining it for years I was the one that he just explained it to and so I mean at the end of the day that's what the pour over is it's us like
SPEAKER_00:so you're like the original recipient oh yeah I was
SPEAKER_01:I was the verbal audience for years before it ever was an email but yeah in I think it was in 2018 him and I were at who hot which is I don't know I wouldn't recommend it our wives wouldn't go there with us so it's just me and him there and eating too much food and he like pitched me the idea the pour over and I was just like I don't know man like that's good for you like you know whatever I kind of brushed it off but to his credit he would read the news and he would be really frustrated with like how he was consuming the news and so it's like you know what as like a personal exercise I'm just going to summarize the news once a week and send it to you and a few other friends like just hold me accountable to that and it's
SPEAKER_02:like
SPEAKER_01:sure man we'll see how long this lasts and the first email was like May 2018 and I mean that's that was it. And that's it. I mean, what it's evolved into is obviously different than the first email, but it really is like a friend writing to other Christian friends of like, hey, here's what's going on, but here's the reminder of eternal hope in Christ.
SPEAKER_00:Man, I love that so much. That is a lot how Dwell started. It was Vera, my sister, having this passion for memorizing God's word and how it had just completely impacted her in a season of just really dark depression where that was the one thing that she was turning to and just really reciting over herself God's promises and writing them on her arm and Sharpie marker and just like having them in her. And when she came out of that season, that was when she started to dwell. She was like, Natalie, will you do this with me essentially? And I was like, amen, yes, I for sure will. And to be as a sister, to see that the power of God's work in her life and my love for her and my deep desire for her to thrive and to do well and to know that that worked powerfully in her life and to love God's word myself. It was just like, yes, I'm in. I'm getting in the bus with you. And you probably felt the same way with Jason. It's like, this is my best friend. He's doing this thing and it's actually really fantastic. And I let me in. I want in on this. I want to be a part. I want to support you. Yeah. And also, I'm reminded of... For me, 9-11 was, I was working in Chicago at the time. I was a young professional person, you know, working in the loop, taking the train every morning. And when 9-11 happened, I was in a giant skyscraper on the 16th floor where I worked. And everybody was like turning on TVs and in break rooms and talking about this plane that hit this building, all this stuff. And I, it was just Like, I'm like, oh my gosh, is this going to happen to us? You know, because we just didn't know what the implications were. And I started having panic attacks. And then as I continued to take in the news, it was all these really tragic stories and visual images that I was like, I couldn't get them out of my brain. I could not, I couldn't watch it anymore. And so for about 10 years, my husband was Jason, my husband, my husband, Jason, also Jason. Was like Jason was for you where he was filtering the news for me and telling me what was going on in the world because I was like, I just can't, I can't see those images. I can't continue to be up at night in a panic or in my job having like panic attacks at work. And so I wonder with the pour over, you know, you had mentioned this a little bit earlier that you see that as as being kind of part of what you do. But it's not just like, here's, because there are news sources where it's like, it's not going to be graphic. It's not going to be a lot of images. It's just a newsletter. Why specifically this Christian perspective? Was that something that Jason was doing right at the beginning when he was kind of giving you the news?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he did. I mean, there were a million different versions early on. But yeah, it was always grounded in the Christian perspective. With Romans 8, 28, like all things that work together for the good of those, you know, for the good of those who are- Who
SPEAKER_00:love him and are called according to his purposes. Sorry. Yes. Dang
SPEAKER_01:it. That's
SPEAKER_00:okay. You don't have it memorized yet. It's not an expectation for being on the show.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. So working for the good of those. And it's like, so in that verse earlier in Romans 8, yeah, Romans 8. Gosh, now I'm feeling nervous about these other Romans references. That's okay. You have this future suffering and then talking about the future or the present suffering and contrast that to the future glory and how they're not comparable to one another. That is what is leading up to 828. And then after 828, you have 831, where it talks about, if God is for us, who can be against us? And then it talks about afflictions and sufferings and all these bad things. So on either side of 828, you have all these things that are not good. And that is the context that Paul's writing from we know that Paul will be imprisoned later on like it's like he can see what's coming and yet he's still saying he's still talking about for the good of those and I just think of that with us it's like yeah in the news one thing we say a lot is eternity changes everything and that is how when there is tragedy in the news our perspective as Christians can change and we can still have hope and that doesn't mean we shouldn't be sad That doesn't mean we don't mourn. That doesn't mean we don't pray. But like we still have a hope that shouldn't make sense to the rest of the world. Because if I was not a Christian or using like Paul's language, if I was not adopted into the family or not filled with the spirit, like the news would be so depressing. It would be horrible, you know? But how can we as, oh yeah. But how can we as Christians be a light to the world, be salt to the world in the way that we do consume the news that we're grounded in Christ. We know how the story ends. Jesus will come back. the earth will be made new again. And yeah, that is the foundation of how we think the news should be viewed, which is different than how most people do consume the news.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Unfortunately, I feel like, well, for me, it's like, it's not, it wasn't a good thing that I completely turned off the news. You know, like you need to be aware of what's happening in the world. Yeah. And it's also not a good thing to over consume the news. You know, it's like, where do you find that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, how do you think, I think this is an interesting question. If Jesus were here today, how would he, and when he,
SPEAKER_02:the
SPEAKER_01:news in his day was what's ever happening in the town that he's in. And maybe a couple days later, you hear about one town that's 20 miles away, right? Right. But now you can hear about everything that's happening by the second across the globe. How do you think he would approach the news today?
SPEAKER_00:Man, that is a great
SPEAKER_01:question. I'm putting you on the spot.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, I think about, what his perspective is on everything. Like his perspective is, you know, when he's coming into Jerusalem, he weeps over the city. He weeps, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you know, we've sent you the prophets and you murdered them. And why didn't you let me, how I've longed to gather you into my arms like a mother hen with its chicks. Like, I think there is a part of Jesus, all of him who is just broken And I think because he's God and because he has this forever perspective, this omniscience about all things, I think he's able to contain and to process, like he knows all the, he knows all the news. Like he always knows all the news. He knows all the news that's going to be, he knows all the news that has been, and he knows how he's going to work it all together for good. I think for us, because we're limited and we are, uh, incapable of holding all of those things you know like Jesus is the one who is before all things and in him all things hold together in him all things hold together so like he's capable of holding all of it but for us like we
SPEAKER_02:aren't
SPEAKER_00:we aren't and I honestly have a new appreciation for the news ever since I mean like if anybody been listening to the Dwell Differently podcast for any amount of time you know that we're always talking about the pour over sometimes we actually have like an ad that we do for you guys but generally speaking like we actually are just talking about the pour over because it's like we appreciate so much the perspective that you're handing us it's like this constant reminder of like hey this really hard thing happened this tragedy happened in the world and yet we know that God works all things together for good or here's this quote from this Christian who is talking about how we can do these things so I mean like not to be not to be like a super fangirl or anything but I think Jesus would be really pleased I think he would look at what you guys are doing and be well done good and faithful servants like you are doing my work you're helping my people in a healthy way consume the news and And I just, I love that. I love that. That's a great question too. Yeah. Although not okay. I'm asking the questions here. I'm sorry. I'm
SPEAKER_01:sorry. I put you on the spot. That wasn't fair. No, no, no. Yeah, I would say my answer to that, and I've had more time to think about it, but I think Jesus would view the news as a way to love his neighbor. And in one way, and a way to be salt and light to the world of think about the conversation you're having with your neighbor while you lean on the fence, like, and it's a nice day out. Yeah. Like they may want to talk about what's going, they may want to talk about Taylor Swift. You know, they might want to talk about the current events that are going on. So I would say we think there is value in knowing what's going on.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It is somewhat of limited value. And I think the distinction that you brought up of Jesus's like omniscience is, is so good because he is God and we are not. And I think an appropriate response to the news is that if you are consuming, I'm just going to say cable television news for two hours a night, you're going to get worked up and you're not going to do anything about it. Most likely. We think that's wrong. We think the appropriate response for us is to be informed as an act of loving our neighbor, being informed with what's going on. And maybe, This will not usually happen, but maybe there's something in the news that stirs you to take some sort of action other than prayer. Because a lot of times you're talking about Jesus coming into Jerusalem and mourning and praying over the city. And I think that is an awesome response when tragedy is in the news. But also maybe there's something in the news of, okay, Roe v. Wade was overturned a couple of years ago. I don't remember exactly when it was. And maybe you've seen all the protests and your heart is just torn apart and you're thinking like, man, I just love preborn babies and my heart, like I feel the Holy Spirit tugging me right now in this news story I'm aware of. And it's like, hey, let the Holy Spirit work through you. Do something about that news story. You can do something. You can't do everything. You can't respond to every news story, but pick one thing and say like, hey, no, I am really passionate about this. I am going to go volunteer at this pregnancy center. I'm going to go, you know, do whatever it is. Or like with you and Vera, like we're going to start this company. that we don't know what's going to happen, but we have found scripture memory is something that's on our heart. We're going to go do something about it. And yeah, I think just being human, it's like pick one thing and do it and just be faithful in it.
SPEAKER_00:I love that actually. I think that's really helpful because I think sometimes the news for us can be very overwhelming, right? It's like there are too many things to, at least for me personally, I think sometimes it's, you know, the level of sadness that I can have in response to is like, no, I just, I can do one thing now. I can have the thing that I know that I'm called to do and I can do it. And I can use the stories that are in the news, like you said, to be a light for my neighbors and have conversations that are of depth, yet also like it's a door. It's an open door when somebody brings up the news to be like, oh, I'm informed about that. And I actually have this perspective, which is why I really appreciate the Christian perspective that you're coming from. Because it's like, oh, I never thought about it that way, but that's a really great way to think about XYZ thing. I have a question though, Nate. So if you have some kind of story, like, could you tell me how maybe you follow a story from this is happening in the world to this is how we're going to present it to the world? Like this is, because, you know, every news source has decisions to make about what you're going to show what you're going to talk about, how you're going to quote unquote spin it. Like everybody has a perspective. Just like, you know, we have the four gospels. They're all true, but they're four different perspectives of the same story and everybody's handling it a little differently. So it's not even like there's something wrong going on if you have a perspective or you're spinning something a certain way. So when you receive a story, how could you give me like an example story and be like, okay, this is something that we had. This is how we decided to present it. And this is how we decided to kind of give a Christian perspective about it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a great question. So I'm not one of the writers. So if you really like the writing at The Pour Over, I can take zero credit. But we have phenomenal writers. And one of them, Steph, summarized the way that we write with brevity, levity, clarity, and dignity. So whenever we are writing a story, those are like the four foundational principles that we have. Brevity, levity, clarity, dignity. So brevity, each news letter is fairly short. And that's to serve our readers. We don't think people need to spend that much time in the news and we want to give you the news, get in your inbox and get out. So that's brevity. Levity is not, levity being in, like making jokes in the news when appropriate and just having some tone and just showing that a certain level of humanness and not seriousness. Now, obviously you need to be very sensitive with that, with tragedies or those sorts of things. And then clarity is just being very clear with the stories we want to use every single word very carefully for our readers to serve our readers for them to know what's going on and then dignity dignity is the example of like it's always President Trump and it was always President Biden and whoever the next president is it will
SPEAKER_00:be president whatever their name is
SPEAKER_01:yeah we treat everyone and every story with dignity and so yeah I mean one story example that does come to mind recently was in early July. I think it was right after 4th of July when there were those horrible floods
SPEAKER_02:in
SPEAKER_01:Texas. And there was that camp that was right by that river where a lot of people were lost and passed away. And man, a story like that just rips your heart apart. So thinking about, okay, what is our job in this story? And I think in that story, obviously, we're not going to make jokes. But I do think it was a story where we can point people back to the gospel and the goodness of the gospel, the goodness of the promise, but mostly just mourn with people and remind our readers to mourn with those who mourn.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I would say that was a big takeaway from that story. And then we also had, we partnered with a nonprofit that had Christian boots on the ground for like just raising money. And so, hey, if you're so inclined, here's a way that if you're heart is stirred, here's something small that you can do that does support that community. And so, yeah, I would say that that's a fairly recent story that, you know, tugged at my heartstrings. But just a reminder to mourn with those who mourn.
SPEAKER_00:What do you do when the things that once held your faith together start to fall apart? When your leaders fail, your doubts grow louder, or someone you love walks away from Jesus? In Someone to Believe In, Bible teacher Courtney Reisig shares her own story of deep, hurt, and honest questions and how Jesus met her right there in the middle of it all. Through powerful moments in the Gospel of John, she shows how even when everything feels unstable, Jesus never changes. He's steady, He's true, and He So if you're feeling weary, disappointed, or unsure where to turn, this book is for you. Grab your copy at someonetobelievein.com and discover steady faith in an unsteady world. We'll have the link in our show notes. Blair Lynn knows what it's like when life falls apart. And in her new book, Made to Tremble, she shares her journey through crippling anxiety, panic attacks, ER visits, and deep discouragement. Like many of us, she wanted to trust in God, but she didn't know how to in the middle of fear. Guys, this isn't a story full of quick fixes or simple answers. It is raw and honest and full of grace. Blair walks through what it really means to suffer with God and how his peace can meet We'll have a link in our show notes so you can easily get this book. I love, like you said, that eternal perspective of like, hey, God is the one who is working all of these things, even these things for good. Here is a way that you can participate in it right now. As much as we're talking about news stories, the story is not finished. We are right now living in the middle of... Our stories and that God is the one who redeems them. God is the one who does that in the world, but also in our lives. And so I'd love to kind of talk about not Nate with the businessman hat on, but Nate maybe without a hat on. Like for you personally, when we talk about these concepts of God working all things together for good, like the reality is like the reason that you are able, to do your job well and to present the news from a Christian perspective is because you are a Christian. You personally have this relationship with God and this verse means something not just for the world and generally, but like even the verse says for you specifically, like God works all things together for good specifically for those who love him and who have been called according to his purpose. And so what about you specifically, Can you tell about a time when this concept of God working all things together for good spoke into your own life?
SPEAKER_01:So when our first daughter was born... So my wife was really sick, like flu-like symptoms. And it was a month before her due date. I don't know exactly how many weeks she was. But it was a month before her due date and she was really sick. We called the hospital and they said, bring her in. And so they bring us to labor and delivery just because she's eight months pregnant and she's really sick. And we're there for the night. And then in the morning, they take some tests of the amniotic fluid. And she has choreo. I don't know the, I know that's a short name whatever the long name is for an infection in the amniotic fluid there's an infection in there
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_01:and so the doctors tell us and it's fairly common the doctors tell us like one way or another like the baby is coming out today and so we're like
SPEAKER_02:oh wow
SPEAKER_01:oh and they say and if we're going to closely monitor the baby and if things get worse like and the doctor's telling me like we will get the baby out in 15 minutes if things get worse and I was like oh oh we're having a baby today all right and first off the human body is so cool the way so they were it's crazy they were getting ready for a c-section and Ari actually my wife actually naturally went into labor because her body gave her the signal that something's wrong in here and not safe for baby and she naturally went into labor which is crazy so she is born and then Ari's still sick and then the baby is sick our first daughter Ella and so they immediately take her you know bring her to the NICU there's 17 girls chords coming out of her. And so that is like... And I remember, and it was probably night two or night three when Ari got sent home after she was starting to feel better. And the hospital was doing tests for the bacteria. And I can't remember what it was called, but the bacteria that was in this infection. And it was a bacteria that nobody at the hospital, the University of Iowa, which is the hospital of the state of Iowa.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Nobody at that hospital had ever heard of. And the only cases they'd seen of this in humans was like with old men. It was like kind of weird. And they were concerned that it would get into her. into her spinal fluid and then into her brain. And so it was one of those where I remember we went home and it was like, man, we're home alone. We don't have our baby with us, our baby's at the hospital. And that was one of those moments where it's like, God, what's going on? Why are we home and our baby isn't? And so Ella was in the NICU for 15 days. And after about a week, it got a lot better got moved out of the intense NICU to a lower level of NICU. And so we got to bring her home. She's healthy today. She's an awesome six-year-old. The thing that I remember from that story that when thinking about this verse in my life, why that story gets triggered is because I remember the first night that she was home. This is going to make me emotional. It was like 3 a.m. and she's screaming. And I'm just holding her in her room. And I'm just thinking, God, you are so good. I get to hold this screaming baby in my home. And she is good and she is safe and she is okay. And she's with me. So... Yeah, Bible Project in 2024, they did like a series on Sermon on the Mount. And one of the things that they talked about with the Beatitudes is like, what is blessed are those who mourn? What does the blessed mean in that? And one way that they reframed it too for today is think of it as the good life belongs to those who mourn. And so when I think of the good in Romans 8, 28, and what does that good mean? Like sometimes that good, it's not the making a bunch of money, having a yacht, all of those worldly passions and all of those things. It's like those little moments like, man, this is good and God is good and he has given us life and life is beautiful and this is such a blessing from him. So yeah, that's when I think about the good and that story is cool because I got to see the end of that promise.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think... It's like what you're talking about with the context of the verse. Like the context of the verse is that there is suffering and there is separation. But like, you know, there's that beautiful section at the end of Romans 8 that talks about, you know, for I'm convinced that nothing can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus, that either death nor life, nor angels nor demons, nor powers or authorities. And I mean, like listing out all these things that it's like, God is still good. Even in our suffering, even like in that list is death, like our most stark enemy. And yet God in his goodness is, gave up his life you know jesus gave up his life so that we could have life like he he gave himself fully and he knows he knows the bad things
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_00:like he fully has experienced human suffering and you know even even you know crying out from the cross my god my god why have you forsaken me yeah like that is what he endured for us and so like we can trust that he's good, even when we don't get to see the story turn out the way that we want it to do, you know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean... For those that are maybe listening, and I know friends that are in this right now of, okay, you read this verse and yeah, Nate, that's a nice story. And your daughter's healthy and your daughter's a great little kid now. But what about to the mom who didn't get to bring their kid home and is in the season of waiting for like, what is the goodness in this God? I don't see it. And- I actually had some encouragement from someone a lot smarter than me, Paul, who wrote Romans. A chapter later, just one chapter later, I'm just going to start with verse 14. What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not. For he tells Moses, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture tells Pharaoh, I raised you up for this reason so that I may display my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in the whole earth. So then he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden. You will say to me, therefore, why then does he still find fault for who resists his will? On the contrary, who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Well, what is formed, say to the one who formed it, why did you make me like this? Or has the potter no right over the clay to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for And that to me is, if you just read verse 20 that says, who are you a human being to talk back to God? That could be kind of abrasive. But I think since verse 16 is there where it says, so then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy. It's like, man, that gives me so much comfort because you look at the character of God and it's like, he is a God that is inclined towards grace. He is a God that is inclined towards mercy. He is a God that is inclined towards justice. And that is the God. And so it's not under my power. And it's difficult for me. I love control. I want control. But what we are called to is just offer a broken heart to God and just surrender to him and surrender in his ways. And yeah, it's just an encouraging verse to me that God is the potter. We are the clay. We are called to just surrender our wills to him.
SPEAKER_00:Hmm. Nate, that is so good. And I think that's just such a powerful image for us to like carry with us. There's a verse in Job where God basically says, I am God and there is no other. And I do, or actually Job says, you are God and there is no other. And just this idea of like, he gets to do what he's going to do. And also though, he is no, angry tyrant.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:He's merciful. Like you said, his character is kind. He loves us. He embraces us. He doesn't have to show us mercy. He could just as rightly give us judgment. And yet he's calling, you know, like there's that passage where it talks about, you know, come to me, come to the waters, all you who are thirsty, come and drink, come and buy wine without money and without cost. And just this idea of God lavishing on us something we could never afford. Like I could never earn this. It said that in that passage that you're reading, like it depends on God. It doesn't depend on human will or human effort. And what a beautiful message that God is good. And even like in Romans 8, it says later, after our verse, it says that God is for us who can be against us like you brought up. Like we can trust him. We can trust that he's working all things for good. Yeah. Okay, Nate, before we close, do you have anything... I think maybe the question I think for you is in the places where we find hardship and in the not knowing, like even in those days where you're without your daughter and you didn't know what God was going to do. How is it that actually in those hardest places, we find the most growth. Like, do you feel like that was something that you experienced when you're like, okay, I'm trusting it that God is good and that he's going to work this for good, even if.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oh man, this is another emotional one. Yeah, I would say, And in the verse, it also, it talks about like who's called us, like the community us, not just who's called me specifically. Yeah. And that does make me think of my mom who... So she battled cancer for 10 years. And the day that, and I think I shared this with you, Natalie, but the day that she passed away, we didn't, you know, she had done the last round of a trial chemo that only a few people were on. We knew it was a Hail Mary. The chances were super low that it was going to work. And then she had recently come off of it. And I was just, I lived three and a half hours from her. I would come in most weekends and visit her. And so it was a Saturday morning. I actually, this was when we We had one, no, we had two kids. And I was just going to spend the day there. So I left early Saturday morning. And you could tell she really wasn't doing well. And so I go down, she was in the basement because that's where like her bed was set up. And I just spent the day in prayer and worship with her. And I got to be with her. And at that point, the cancer was around her lungs. and her throat and her heart. And it was so hard for her to breathe. She couldn't lean back because then she wouldn't be able to like talk. Well, she wouldn't be able to breathe if she leaned back. And so I remember I would like help hold her head up and we were praying together and she couldn't really say more than one word. And we were praying together. And then at one, she would kind of like mumble and I could tell, you know, she was, she's saying something. I have no clue what she's praying. And then at one point. the last two sentences I hear her say are, you are so good. Thank you for amazing grace. And it's like, man, when I think of the community us that we are called, that same spirit that lives in my mom, that with her dying breath, as she is fighting for every breath, that what her heart is inclined towards is God's goodness, even though she knows she doesn't get to see her grandkids grow up. She doesn't get any of these things that she wanted and her life was cut short. Like she still sees that God is good and that same spirit that was in her is like in me. And the encouragement of that, of she did not get to see the end of the goodness, but she still trusted that God was good. And just seeing that example for me is so encouraging of, man, how can I faithfully cultivate my life to model this saint of every morning when I got up, she was in her chair reading her Bible and how she was behind the scenes serving every single Sunday and Wednesday night. And that is just who she was and how we have that example of those saints that are set before us. And everyone can think of someone like at church that you know is just faithful faithfully serves, that's faithfully following Christ. And that you have the goodness that we're called to. there are those that even if I don't get it right now, there are those that year after year consistently following Jesus, like they actually understood it even when they didn't get to see how the story ends.
SPEAKER_00:Man, that's just such a beautiful story, Nate. And what a testimony to your mom, you know, of God's work in her and the hope that we have in Christ, you know, that our hope Hope is an eternal hope. And when we are living our lives in light of eternity, when we're believing the Bible for what it tells us is true about the goodness of God and his ultimate, like this is his ultimate plan for us, right? That we would dwell in the house of the Lord forever. That we would be in his presence, that in his presence there is fullness of joy. And it's hard for us here and now sometimes. but that we know the end of the story. And the end of the story is so beautiful. And I'm reminded of that verse that says that God is not slow in keeping his promises as some of us would consider slowness, but that he's patient and waiting for those who would come and be safe. That the purposes of God in this in-between time is for salvation. It's for of the calling of people into his glory and into his goodness. Praise God. He's good. Nate, this is such a great conversation. I just appreciate you sharing your heart and your stories and the goodness of God. And thank you for being one of those people behind the scenes of the pour over who is just holding things up and having faith and proclaiming the goodness of God, even in the hard things. We just so much appreciate you I appreciate the pour over again I'm maybe like your biggest fan girl over here who just is like I actually can't consume the news any other way now this is it this is it for me so I just love everything that you're doing and may the Lord bless you and keep you and shine his face upon you and give you peace and there will be links for those of you guys who are listening to all the things the pour over and if you don't get their email come mom now. Yeah, you should. It's free. I mean, it's free. Also, they have a podcast. They actually have a podcast, which is really fantastic. Sometimes I listen to the podcast. I'm more likely to read the newsletter, but I do love the podcast too. So keep on, keep on, keep it on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Thank you so much for the kind words and for what you guys are doing and your passion for scripture memory.
SPEAKER_00:Amen. It's our joy.
SPEAKER_01:It's our joy. Thanks, Natalie.
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