The Neighborhood Church, Bentonville, AR
Welcome to the TNC Podcast, where real conversations meet raw emotions and faith!
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The Neighborhood Church, Bentonville, AR
"Baptists, Pentecostals, and Lutherans, Oh My!" A throwback to 90's church...
In this episode of the TNC Podcast, Pastor Joe Liles, Tevo Christmann, and Roseanne Bowlin explore the landscape of 90s church culture through personal stories and spiritual reflection. Drawing from their diverse church backgrounds - Pentecostal, Baptist, and Lutheran - they unpack the meaning of discipleship and personal faith growth.
Centered on the scripture John 3:30, "He must increase, I must decrease," the conversation delves into church trends, worship styles, and the importance of seeking a deeper relationship with Christ. We must move beyond church attendance and actively pursue spiritual development.
From nostalgic 90s worship music to thoughtful discussions about church membership, this episode offers a compelling look at faith, community, and personal spiritual journeys.
J grant, okay, there we go. Welcome to the TNC podcast. We are recorded in studio, which is also the Worship Center at the neighborhood church. We are looking out at a beautiful day. Um, outside of these wonderful courtyard, doors that we have facing it looks beautiful from the inside. From the inside, the sun is shining. The hot weather is coming. It's getting hot. It's getting humid. Humid. I delight in this. I went out human hot and humid. Delight like it. I grew up in Phoenix, not humid, but hot, right? So I thrive in heat like oh, it's a dry heat. It's a dry heat in Phoenix. Here's the deal. People don't know that's a real thing. The difference in heat in Arkansas versus Phoenix, I can be in Arkansas and melt, right? And go to Phoenix and be fine in 110 right? You know?
Tevo Christmann:And just be out there humidity and whatever, yeah, what? Just
Pastor Joe Liles:swimming. Basically, when you're walking, you're just swimming. I've been in multiple places in my life that I felt like that. Oregon was different. When I lived in Oregon, you would walk through what I call the mist rain, so it wouldn't rain, but when you arrived at where you were going, you were wet, right? So you were like, walking through, walking in the clouds. Yeah, in the clouds, led by a pillar and so little church. Joe, yeah, that's great. So yeah, it's gonna be man. The heat's coming. It's beautiful outside. We got two podcast hosts joining us today. Tom hellch is finishing off his seminary classes, and he said he has to work on a couple final classes and get those things done. And then he just sent us a text, which was not him working on his smoking meats. He's smoking meats right now, which I was like, that's not final classes. I hope it
Tevo Christmann:is, I hope. But he did say he's on he's bringing it to youth, he's bringing it to
Pastor Joe Liles:you. So that was not it was a foretaste of the feast to come. We're gonna have those all podcasts that's just for your listening enjoyment. So joining me to my right. If you are enjoying this podcast via video,
Tevo Christmann:would be same. O, table, Sam. O, Stage Right. Stage
Pastor Joe Liles:Right. You know, I hate that. I however, many times I've tried to learn that stage right is facing out. So as you look out to the audience, that is the direction when you say stage right. So stage right, that is correct. Stage left of me is the one and the only. Rosie Roseanne, Oh, do you remember what we started last podcast? Roseanne knows Rose roseanne's notes. I think we nailed it. Roseanne, do you have notes today? I
Roseann Bowlin:don't. I don't have a lot of notes. Oh
Pastor Joe Liles:no, Rose happened you don't have a lot of notes from Sunday? Yeah,
Roseann Bowlin:no, it just really didn't hit with me. Oh well, wow,
Pastor Joe Liles:it didn't
Tevo Christmann:podcast. It's an
Pastor Joe Liles:honest, but that's okay, Roseanne, we're gonna unpack that a little bit and see what was there. So that's really good.
Roseann Bowlin:The way nature is trying to kill me. It's pollen, heat and humidity, and I'm fat and old.
Pastor Joe Liles:Oh, okay, all right, yeah, he's trying to kill you, so you're just now, mind you, I will say the allergies are kicking. Can we disown that? Are they still? Do you have allergies?
Tevo Christmann:Not usually, no. But when I was camping and the pollen was so intense, yeah, I was out. And then I learned why Benadryl is awful. I had never taken Benadryl before, and I took it and, oh my god, did you crash? Oh my god, yeah. Like, you really shouldn't take that. Yeah, no, yeah. And then, like, if you have things to do still, I'm like, I'll be fine, yeah, no, I drink, like Michael, and I just stay up all night. I'm fine. And I took that thing, man, I had a glass of wine, which don't mix wine, but oh man, I dropped that glass wine on the rug, and I broke the glass. No, there's wine on the rug. And then Carol's like, Ah, I told you not to take the village. So now we're pulling the rug out. Wow. Okay, I'll take the rug over to the to the bathtub, and we're gonna soak it. So I take it into the bathtub and I fill that thing up. And I'm like, I did good. And I look over our Swiffer was in the bathtub, wow, and wow. And apparently there's electronics in the Swiffer. Sorry, Swiffer was gone. Oh,
Pastor Joe Liles:wow. That was a disaster camping, though, but you had a bath in your camper. Did you say you were camping when this
Tevo Christmann:happened? I took Benadryl when I got back home. Oh, okay, all
Pastor Joe Liles:right. I had you in a camper. And I'm like, wow, I was,
Tevo Christmann:I was in the camper. Yeah, camping. Just just inhaling, dying, yeah, vast amounts of pollen, yeah, and just dying, yep. So when I got home, I took Benadryl and didn't go well, yep.
Pastor Joe Liles:One of the Bougie memberships that I have, that I think is bougie, and I own it, and it's just, I'm going to say it out loud, I have a car wash membership. Yeah, right. And, and part of it is because I don't like looking at the pollen on the truck, because it makes me feel like I'm going to have an allergic feel allergic, yeah. And I was like, so when I go out, I'm like, I need to go wash my truck so I don't see it. I walk out tomorrow, I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's so much yellow. Paul, like, eight. On the truck, and I'm like, This is what I'm walking through. Yeah, it's no good. Yeah,
Roseann Bowlin:it's no yeah, my red car is yellow now, yeah, yeah, it's the
Pastor Joe Liles:spawn yellow. I was really happy this morning. Went on my run, fine. On the run, the whole run, right? All all around, kind of like, you know, South Bentonville type of deal, and got home sneezed nine times in a row and woke up the kids. Jess talked about it. Kaylee talked about it, yeah, it's been warm. I'll just sneeze in the morning, and just kind of sitting in my chair, are
Tevo Christmann:you a loud sneezer or, like a cute sneezer? I particularly enjoy
Pastor Joe Liles:a loud sneeze just saying it out loud. These were, they didn't have their like that. They didn't have that part. These were very like, just nasally sneezes, right? Went for it, and I just sat there in my sweat, sneezing. And it was not enjoyable. I did. I did not enjoy because once I get into it, and all that means that happens next is then the allergies flow. Yeah, right. That's all that I know is going to happen. So
Roseann Bowlin:your body protection started response, like, we need to get rid of this now.
Pastor Joe Liles:So now that you've enjoyed our very much full of information podcast, we're going to jump into some scripture. So not not that it was profound for Roseanne this week, but we talked about the 90s church. So we went back and had a 90s Sunday on Mother's Day. And so a table, can you just walk back through a little bit part of 90 Sunday which people were really excited about, were the songs on 90 Sunday, songs that people grew up with. And here's the deal, we haven't sang those too often. No, right? There's maybe one or two that we probably did previous, right, that we kind of brought back in. We haven't done them in a couple years, right? I just have to say, right, when you started singing right when the band hit up, still hits, still slaps. Like I was back there going, Yeah, as much, because I grew up in this phase of music, and even though, like, Hey, we've moved on and things are there, it still hits, yeah, like, it's still there. So what was your what were your thoughts around the songs that we chose? Like, what songs we play on Sunday, like, what were some of the ones
Tevo Christmann:that hit? Was a delicate balance, because we're trying not to make this make, make, make fun of the 90s Sunday. We're trying to honor right, a time frame of the church. Now, admittedly, there's a strong element of nostalgia, yeah, which it's still up for debate. To what degree nostalgia needs to make its way into worship? Isn't it good? Yeah, warnings, but maybe that's something we'll learn down the road. But um, so there was a strong degree of nostalgia about these songs. But, like, I had to, we had to, like, pick around to some 90 songs have have grown to, to to experience the degree of sort of comedic effects to them. Like this is true. Like, one of the songs we definitely did not do was shine Jesus. You did not want that one. Shine Jesus. Shine, you know? Because, yeah, yeah. So it's, like a lot of these songs, like, would, because they're, they were, they were so overdone in the 90s, they were, like, we sang them so much, because we all love them so much. Now they're a little bit of the butt of the joke, yeah? So a little bit of navigation. But a lot of these songs, I mean, we're still enjoying them. We don't do it anymore, and I don't think we're going to bring them back, yeah, but it was, it was fun to kind of relive that.
Pastor Joe Liles:I agree, uh, my Redeemer lives. Uh, glad we enjoyable.
Roseann Bowlin:They were all great. The music was enjoyable and
Pastor Joe Liles:unknown. What still hits and was great for the kids. Message was, Laura, lift your name on high. Lift your name. Totally forgot that there were hand motions. No, they went for it. Like I would I would say, what I would say, 25% of people out there were starting to do the hand motions. Right? Hand motions, right. Hand motion. Just fantastic. And yeah, grew up in that youth group, yeah. Grew up in that youth group, every beach camp, every mission trip, like sitting by the campfire, like just sitting around acoustic guitar, and we're just singing, Lord, I lift your name on I right, and just going for it. So, so it was enjoyable. So we went through that. We talked through 90s church and kind of this mega church movement, this multi site movement, we introduced a giga Church, which is churches over 10,000 people, and so we've seen this advance. And then we talked about, kind of where the growth came from early 90s, there's only, like eight to 10 multi site churches. By the end of the 90s, there's 100 right multi site churches by 2012 there is 5000 multi site churches. By today's current standards, there's about, I would say, I think the number was 10,000 5000 No, 8000 right now. There's 8000 right now, and expected to be 2000 more in the next five years. So that trend is growing. And we talked about, really, the sizes of different churches. And was great, but we really wanted to get through like, what were, what were we looking at in the 90s? That changed as we grew from the church. And we kind of use this text from John three as the as the element, to talk through this, like, what was increasing, because we were talking about numbers and church sizes. So we talked about what was in. And where other parts were decreasing. And so we jumped into John three, which is a great text about Jesus baptizing people, and John the Baptist, baptizing people, which we're going to get into a second after our a,
Tevo Christmann:one, a, two, A, 1-234-793-6722,
Pastor Joe Liles:85, neighborhood church. There it is. That's the church phone number. You can call it anytime. Amen, who's going to answer it? Give us your phone. Answer that when people call and I say,
Roseann Bowlin:Thank you for calling the neighborhood church, this is Roseanne. How can I help you today
Pastor Joe Liles:that don't you just want to call now? Just to say, if you need someone to talk to, you can call Roseanne anytime during the day, and she'll answer from the church, which is, put
Roseann Bowlin:it to you straight,
Tevo Christmann:if somebody has a concern, you're gonna somebody has a concern, she's gonna say, You know what? That didn't hit with me? Yeah.
Pastor Joe Liles:That is what, yeah. That came across just straight out. No notes this week, neither. I mean for us launching a new segment last week, and then coming this I was excited,
Roseann Bowlin:pressure, sitting there going, now, do you
Pastor Joe Liles:know? So just side note, is talking to my parents. They are in Phoenix right now with my sister, who just had a baby, and it was Mother's Day. And so I called her for Mother's Day, and I was like, Oh, Happy Mother's Day, Mom. And so we just chatted for about half hour, 45 minutes, and she's like, Oh my gosh. Like we were listening to the podcast during Sunday because we put like, three minutes of the podcast up during our prayer time, and so that goes out while we're praying in here, right? And people can listen to the podcast. And she was, oh my gosh, you guys were talking about roseanne's notes, right? When the three minutes ended, like, it was like, we're gonna do this new segment, Roseanne zones. And they're like, it's the one time of like, where's the podcast at? Like, I want to go hear Roseanne notes. And I said, Don't worry, it'll happen every week. And then we find ourselves here, possibly, possibly, that's every week. It's really good. So we're going to jump into Scripture. We're going to be reading about John three and before we do that, I want to really because we're going to break down this scripture, and then we're going to go back into John the Baptist baptizing Jesus and that kind of language too, from the book of John. But I wanted to talk about 90s church and how we grew up in 90s church, because, like you said, there's a lot of nostalgia there. We have three very different experiences here that we're just chatting about a little bit before the podcast. And then we decided to be a great conversation on the podcast. So I grew up in traditional Lutheran Church in the 90s. My dad was the pastor of the church, right, um table. You grew up in a different experience. What was your experience? What what church did you grow up in the 90s? I grew up
Tevo Christmann:in a Baptist church. I mean, this was Brazil, so not America, so slightly different than whatever you know Baptist or essentially loose association of church. It's kind of like church of Christ. It's not, you know, it's not a top down hierarchical structure like Lutheran Church, yeah. And so Baptist, in fact, they just call it a convention, okay, right? And so, like the Southern Baptist Convention here in Brazil, too, it's just a convention. So does that mean there's more autonomy on the local church level? There's quite a bit of autonomy in the local Yeah. I mean, there, like, there's a sort of a doctrinal unity among these churches, and they get to do things together. But other than that, like a top down, there's not that much that they can do. Okay, the polity of the church is very congregational in that sense. So, yeah, I grew I grew up in a Baptist church. That particular convention was a charismatic church, not a Cessationist Church, which is typically in Baptist world, where the split is you can be Cessationist, meaning the Spirit did miracles and works of the works of the Spirit, the charisma ties that happened in the time of the apostles and when The Apostle, the one, the last apostle died, the gifts of the Spirit also died. Oh, okay, yeah, that's a Cessationist perspective. Was not a succession, okay? I did not grow up in a cessation perspective. I grew up in a charismatic perspective. And so the idea that God, sort of like speaks to you, that you can hear God's voice and be led in that way, that is one of those things. The idea of prophecy being still alive is one of those things. The idea even a physical healing being possible is one of those things that
Pastor Joe Liles:great. And that's not typical. Baptist like this is interesting. So charismatic Baptist, correct? I was a charismatic Baptist, right? In Brazil, okay, were those things practiced in the church, like healings and different things like that,
Tevo Christmann:and they're there. I think all that means is that we're open to it, yeah, but we were shy of being Pentecostal, okay, which is, aside from a couple other doctrinal differences, is the active, central pursuit of these things, correct? Yeah. In our context, we weren't actively, centrally pursuing these things. We were open to it. So there are moments where somebody had a prophecy and we were very open to it, and like, somebody felt that, that that makes sense, and stuff like that, but it wasn't the centrality of the local church. No. Okay,
Pastor Joe Liles:so we'll get back to like, what was your experience? Because we. Talk about, like, during that time you were 10 years old, right? So, like, you had a kind of almost a child experience coming up through church in the 90s, which was great. Roseanne just a tad bit older. What church did you go a tad bit? What church did you grow up in in the 90s?
Roseann Bowlin:Well, I was fully an adult in the early 90s, so, and I had a child so, but I attended a family owned, I guess, Pentecostal church, okay, what do you mean by that church in Wesley, what was it called? Cobb Creek Church?
Pastor Joe Liles:Cobb Creek Church, okay, and what do you mean by family owned Pentecostal? Well, so
Roseann Bowlin:my father in law's mother was the first pastor, okay, but my father in law was actually my husband's great grandfather. Okay, hold on. So, yeah. So yeah, that family tree split, but yeah, I
Pastor Joe Liles:try and Okay, okay, father in law's mother was the pastor, but yeah, yes, okay,
Roseann Bowlin:my Yes, well, whatever. Okay, it, it was, it was a church that was started by the family and continued by
Pastor Joe Liles:the family, generationally through the family, yes, okay, yeah, and then Pentecost that when it was open to other people, yeah, that's great. Yeah, absolutely. Now, when you say Pentecostal, like, what was your experience inside the church? Immune
Roseann Bowlin:moment, okay, so good. This is interesting, because I came into the Pentecostal church from a Catholic background, yeah, so the first time they clapped, I shrank, oh, okay, because I was afraid the building was going to fall in, yeah, literally, yeah. And I was told I had to wear a dress. Oh, interesting. That was different for me. I mean, I didn't mind. They told you when you showed up, my my then boyfriend, my daughter's dad, later on, yeah, he told me that please wear a dress. Okay? I mean, he invited me to church. Yeah,
Tevo Christmann:you know, you have to grow your hair and stop wearing makeup. Also, I did
Roseann Bowlin:not okay. I don't know if it was against the rules or not. I well, I did grow my hair long and then realize that's why I was having had it anyway. It doesn't matter. It was, yeah, I did grow my hair out, and no one asked me to, okay,
Pastor Joe Liles:yeah, but yeah, okay, no. What was your experience of church? What was church like on a Sunday morning? I
Roseann Bowlin:loved it was the old hymns. Okay,
Pastor Joe Liles:it was, but there were my imagining a choir up front or like,
Roseann Bowlin:no, no, no, no, everybody who wanted to sing went up on stage and saying they did have instruments. I don't know if there were drums, but there were definitely guitars and stuff, because, because my husband and his brother, my first memory of my daughter's dad was going to that church with my cousin, and these two boys, dressed exactly alike, were up front playing so and I didn't realize anyway. I didn't realize who he was until after we'd been married a while, anyways. But yeah, so they spoke in tongues. They danced around. Okay, the church,
Tevo Christmann:do they have a shofar? The what the shofar? What's the shofar? The shofar is, so they say the, the when the Bible talks about trumpets, yes, it's the bulls horn. Oh. There you go. And so at some point in Pentecostal world, the shofar got brought back into Oh, wow, service, and people would just blow the shofar. Interesting, somewhat randomly. I don't mean to make fun of the show, yeah,
Roseann Bowlin:I don't recall having that experience, okay, but there was definitely speaking in tongues. There was the dancing in the spirit and that type of thing. Can you?
Pastor Joe Liles:Can you share with us just real quick? I we're not in a church that has speaking of tongues that is an act of participation, right? Not opposed to understanding that that's a reality in Scripture, right? And that's there. And so it's not outside of Scripture, but we're not in a space where that happens on a Sunday morning. And so it might be unfamiliar for a lot of people, and there might be some skepticism around speaking in tongues. And so what was your experience from being in that church like? What was it like to experience speaking in tongues? What happened, when it happened? And then what was
Roseann Bowlin:it like? Well, it didn't personally happen to me, but there would be various people in the church that would start speaking a language that none of us understood, okay, and then someone maybe opposite from them in church would then interpret,
Pastor Joe Liles:okay, alright, which is also scriptural, right? They say speak in tongue. Should always have an. Interpreter was speaking,
Roseann Bowlin:and it was an interesting experience, like it was, it was, I would say, biblically based, because it was prophecies, Mm, hmm, that type of thing, not anything that was going to happen now, but I told you it would be, like I told you this would happen, yeah,
Pastor Joe Liles:type of thing. So you said you shrunk when they clapped
Unknown:because the first
Pastor Joe Liles:time, yeah, from a Catholic background, yes, this also doesn't happen in the Catholic Church. So what was it? How did you feel when you first heard speaking in
Roseann Bowlin:tongues? My eyes were biggest saucers, but I was also very Yeah. Oh, but it was in it was interesting. And of course, my personality, being what it is, it can happen to other people, yeah, the Holy Spirit, don't you getting me? Yeah, so, but it was interesting to observe.
Pastor Joe Liles:Interesting to observe. Was it something that you, over time, came to appreciate and trust in and different things like that, not just observe? I mean, we know he didn't participate, right in the sense
Roseann Bowlin:of right, um, I, I did appreciate. I did come to appreciate it. I didn't understand it. I didn't it wasn't an element of every church service. So, like it was nostalgia, you know, just just just being in that moment and appreciating it. But as far as any revelations for me that came from more reading the Bible
Pastor Joe Liles:that, yeah, great, great. And you said there was dancing in the Spirit also, oh, yeah,
Roseann Bowlin:I saw my sister in law, who was actually my husband's grandmother. I
Pastor Joe Liles:love how you lit up when we said this, like you did right in this game. She was
Roseann Bowlin:dancing all around, and my eyes were biggest saucers for that too.
Pastor Joe Liles:Okay, Alright, great. Did you ever participate in the dancing I did?
Roseann Bowlin:I did not, okay, but prayer calls to the front. Yeah. My stepson was accepted the Lord in in an altar call. Yeah. And that was a very special moment. Okay, alright, that's
Pastor Joe Liles:wonderful. I was just thinking about the spirit led dancing, right? And I was thinking back, and I was like, oh, it'd be interesting to witness in a church. And then I realized we're, we're not outside of spirit led dancing, right, especially when we go back to like Easter, when all the kids came front at the end, not called front or anything else like that. They just came forward and started dancing, right? And people got now, and I was like, Oh, this is a beautiful expression of, kind of like just being filled with worship, right? And wanting to express that. And the kids are great at it, because they don't have any we credit, to try to create the safe space right where the front of the church is at, and so the kids can feel comfortable there. And they feel welcome, yeah, they feel welcome, right, to kind of live out that fullest expression of their faith. So table what was like for you on a Sunday morning at church? Like, talk us through what it was like to attend. And I love how you described before, you said it was like a non Calvin, Calvinistic, right? And you said Pentecostal, Baptist. I wouldn't
Tevo Christmann:say Pentecostal, but I would say charismatic, Charismatic. Charismatic.
Pastor Joe Liles:Sorry, charismatic was Where do you Yeah, yeah. Charismatic, Baptist. So what was a Sunday morning like when you attended a church in the 90s?
Tevo Christmann:Um, well, to begin with, the Baptist Church has somewhat strict requirements around membership, yeah, okay, and one of the requirements for membership is that you are able to recount your conversion story, your testimony. Everybody has to have a testimony, and if you don't, then you need to wait around until you get one, and then you can join, you know, kind of a thing. And that's because, I think the idea is that, like, obviously, you can hang around. But who we call members are people that we that we know and and trust to have experienced something, yeah, that we share with God. And so that's kind of where it comes from. And so the expectation of engagement and worship on a Sunday morning was was very rich. And so the hands raised the sing along, yeah, and, and emotional engagement in worship wasn't exactly optional. I mean, okay, obviously. I mean, if you want to stand there and be a loop, that's totally fine. No one's gonna yell at you, but, but we'll be concerned. Yeah, you know, like, what's going on? Is your faith not pulsating? Yeah? You know, because are you not resonating with this? You know,
Pastor Joe Liles:just like Roseanne with my message this week, yeah, yeah, she really
Tevo Christmann:resonated. Was she and a pulsating? Yeah? So that's, that's kind of the experience so, and that's also part. Of the charismatic side of it, because the the the what in Brazil would they just the division, the names they gave one for one was renewed Baptist, the other one was traditional Baptist. Okay. And so the traditional Baptist was, of course, much more stoic, yeah. And and much more like the American Baptist expression, where they really hang on to the idea that your heart's desperately wicked, as it says in Jeremiah. And so you have to distrust your emotions at every at every step of the way. And that's you know, that's still the case in many, yeah, in many baptism, especially reformed context, you distrust your emotions, you downplay your emotions, and you rely heavily on your intellect and rationality and so that you know. So in those kinds of churches, you're unlikely to see a whole lot of hands raised, or in a whole lot of emotional engagement. You're very likely to see very wordy hymns. Oh, interesting what I'm saying, yeah. And in the more charismatic church, because the emotions are so very present, and, and, and, and integral to the expression of that Church's doctrine, you're much more likely to see the kind of music that is almost mantra like that repeats, because you're just kind of settled into this sort of, you know, emotional, mystical experience, right, most, right? And then, and so that was more like our experience. Okay, we didn't the 90s. We hadn't the movement of, of spontaneous singing, yeah, hadn't started yet. Oh, that's 2000 so
Pastor Joe Liles:you're talking like, when, like, for example, we as a church will stop, but hey, let's sing that again, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You sang the song as it was, as it was written, and then you went through it,
Tevo Christmann:okay? But the thing where it's just a two hour song, where you just are making up the song on the spot at, like, Bethel Church, kind of repeat it over, and you're almost like, in the trance that hadn't started yet, okay? And so very emotional, very richly engaging, but not to that extent yet, okay? And then, but with a time, a very clear time, like the song, where the songs are gonna go for a half hour, and then it's done, yeah? And then it's always done. And it's like, there's a clock at the end, yeah. You're gonna go from seven to 730 Yeah. And then you're done from with that. And then we get the word communion once a month, of course, okay, yeah. And that's kind of how we went nice, okay,
Pastor Joe Liles:and what was your experience with that? Did you enjoy that was that, you know, something that you felt
Tevo Christmann:as a child? So I didn't know that you obligated. Were other options? Okay, yeah, exactly. I just understood that to be the way church was,
Pastor Joe Liles:yeah. So I shared similar experience, just I grew up traditional Lutheran, right? So Lutheran all my life, right? Coming through, which is interesting, because in seminary, when you get there, they say, Hey, I'm glad you're here. Most of you think you're Lutheran, but you've only heard from one or two pastors your entire life, and think you now know the theology. And they said, Hey, we're going to break you all down in order to get you to a space to say, Are you Lutheran right type deal. And so, so grew up, my dad was a pastor at the church, right? Grew up in the 90s at Mountain View Lutheran Church in awatuki, Arizona, which is like South Phoenix. Fun name, yeah, it's fun, yeah, it's fun. Super hard to spell. And so we got into this church, really wonderful. And it was a growing church, large church, 1500 to 2500, members, right? Yeah. Big church, huge, you know, sanctuary coming in and, and in the back of the sanctuary, you had all these glass panels leading into the narthex, right? And the narthex was an area that we would call our fellowship area, right? And this was the narthex where people gathered, and there was coffee there, and everything else. And I was always there, because my dad was there. And so this, this probably the 90s, I'm looking, yeah, probably in the range of being, you know, I would say set eight years old, all the way through 18, right? You know, it's like 2000 so, like, kind of all my teenage years. And I would show up, and if they didn't, if someone canceled, which I'm realizing now, a lot of people canceled, because I always got asked to do things anyway. It's just the nature of the church. They would throw a robe on me, give me an acolyte candlelighter, and say, Hey, you're the acolyte today. They'd say, hey, we need help, you know, stacking Styrofoam cups, like the classic, like Styrofoam cups with the coffee, you know, everything else like that. So I would stack all those, and then I got to be like a really good stacker of coffee cups. And so I would do designs at the coffee station, right for people to come in. I was really proud of myself and and our church was typical ELCA Green Book, right? If you know the books, right, you're a true Lutheran, right? I had someone message me this week, and they said, What color are we doing? Which meant, like, what color of the Lutheran worship are we doing? And they said, Is it red? I was like, well, Red was back in the like, 60s, right? And then you had the LBW, and each of these last for like, 25 years. That's crazy to me. Like the Lutheran worship, these books are not updated, like every year. Like, they stay right, and they go,
Roseann Bowlin:like, textbooks in Oklahoma, oh, textbooks.
Pastor Joe Liles:That's really good. Yeah, that's great. Oh yeah, whoa. Oh. Shots fired, um, so here we go, um, but so we were in the green book, beloved, right? Was wonderful. Every every pew, right? So there's all these pews. Every pew had agreement, pew, pew, pew, every pew had a green book, right? And we'd always open and we'll begin the convention forgiveness found on page 94 in the front portion of your hymnal, right? And we'd open that up. And it was a beautiful space. It was a beautiful space to kind of come in and experience this liturgy and come through and, and honestly, it was every single Sunday. It was communion. You came forward at the altar, you had this you had a kneeling spot where you would share communion. And, and it was great. I mean, it was just but, I mean, a large part of that is that what I remember from the 90s is Sunday only church, right? Like that. That was the expression that we lived into. And then you had people out in the courtyard, fellowshipping, doing different things, like that, and so And honestly, great memories from it, right? Love that time. I think there was seeds being planted, kind of in this pastoral ministry, pastoral heart of what this could mean in growing up in the church. And then in the late 90s, right? Dad was called to plant a church in Vegas, right? So we made the shift, kind of like 99 to plant a church in Vegas, and that was a whole different experience, right? Because we went from very traditional church only, knowing that type of traditional church, to very clear structures, right? Everything else like that, like no questions to to the library at a Lutheran School in Las Vegas with boom boxes and, like, CDs, where we had to play music, right? Like, and just, you know, 40 chairs, kind of a gamble. Oh, very much so, very much so, oh yeah, gamble Vegas. It's really good look. There's your third joke for today. It's amazing. We're bringing it so so very interestingly. But we also saw that in the church on Sunday, we had all these different experiences, right? That came through, and that's what we heard about in the text a little bit. Which is why I drew from this text. Is because you have people who have all these different experiences seeking after a relationship with God, but one of these does not look like the other right? You have these moments where this doesn't you're growing up in the 90s in church didn't look like mine. It didn't look like yours, right? And yet, we all found ourselves navigating, even after that, to many different churches, to where we find ourselves today. And
Tevo Christmann:so you liked that expression so much that when you set out to plant the church, you decided to do it exactly.
Pastor Joe Liles:So that's interesting. So, so I grew up traditional, grew up traditional through that expression, had the church plant experience, right? But still, only new traditional in seminary was taught traditional church taught to lead Bible studies, eight to 10 minute manuscript sermons, how to guide a church, how to do a budget, how to chant, how to chant, yeah, that's great. Not Can't we learn that? Okay, yeah, don't. Can't it is a cantor, right? And it is a canticle, but it's not cancer.
Tevo Christmann:Cantor leads the chance, yes,
Pastor Joe Liles:right? So it's not a Yeah. So how much would a cantor can't if a cantor, that's good, but no. The the interesting part was that as I came out of this, I realized that really, where God was calling my heart was into this space of what was the church that was needed into the future, right? And what were we seeing in elements of how the church was growing right into what it was going to become. And as we are seeing this, we're in the state of the seminary, which I was in seminary, 2007 to 3011 where we're watching the decline of the church. We're seeing these things decline, right? And we're seeing these moments going and and in seminary, I was asking questions like, Well, how do you get people to a Bible study, you know, like, what if? What if the pastor is not the pastor that goes into a church that already exists? It was one of my major questions during seminary, is like, what happens if it's not just handed to you? Like, how do you grow this? And everything that we are taught was how you lead something that already exists. And I was like, Well, if the church is declining, you're leading decline, right? Like, we're being taught how to lead through this, and that's wonderful, but we're not being taught how to grow through this. And so these questions, and honestly, some of the answers I got back in seminary were like, hey, well, that's not what's going to that's not what's going to happen. You're going to walk into a church that has a Bible study. You're going to walk in church that has a budget and a council and all these things. And I'm like, but what if it's not there? Like, what if we're going out into these so that question that we pondered was really an identity of saying, What's what is the church going to look like in the future, and what do the families coming into the church need to see in the church in the future in order to continue to sustain what the church reality is. And then some of the some of the first experiences I had here in Bentonville guided the church too. So we're attending all local Lutheran churches before we planted. And we're in a church locally, and traditional church, traditional worship, wonderful. Still Still have a heart for that love it and and our kids were in the church at the time, right? And we had Kaylee, and Kaylee's loud vocal ready to go right, want to talk, right? Everything wonderful. And one of the members of the Church turned around and shushed us, like, right in church, I was like, oh, oh, never. I was like. Right? This is a child that's in church that's like, in mind, she wasn't, she wasn't over the top, wasn't going crazy, right? Just enough to have this person in front of us turn around and say, quiet down, right? And I was like, Man, there should never be a place where we make people feel uncomfortable, right? In church, right, for the expression of children or anything else, which is why you see that our church is so child focused, is because I really had an experience at the start that turned me off entirely to going to church, right? And I was saying, Oh, I hope no, no family ever experiences this, that they would feel shame and guilt and they would feel nervous about going to church for the sake of their children, right, and to be there. So we celebrate children in church. And so some of those experiences are guided post. Some of them were guided during seminary. I think a lot of the seeds were from my dad planting a church, and just seeing that church could be done differently, right? And then experiencing those two kind of dichotomies. So, yeah, that's really interesting, just kind of how it came up through but it kind of guides into like this John three text. The John three text was like, Jesus was baptizing and John was baptized, and saying, Hey, this doesn't look like us. It's not helping, and more people are going here. And what does that mean? So let's break into the text. Open, the text, open that up a little bit, and we love to just kind of pause for a moment and to settle our hearts right, taking the Scripture right, ground ourselves in the Word. And so we're going to be in John chapter three, and we're going to be reading verses 22 through 30. And the title of the section in Scripture is Jesus and John the Baptist, and that was it. Why don't you start us off? Alright?
Roseann Bowlin:After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he spent some time there with them and baptized. John also was baptizing at anon near Salem, because water was abundant there, and people kept coming and were being baptized.
Tevo Christmann:John, of course, had not yet been thrown into prison. Now, a discussion about purification arose between John's disciples and the Jew. They came to John and said to him, Rabbi, the one who is with you across the Jordan to whom you testified. Here he is baptizing, and all are going to him.
Pastor Joe Liles:John answered, No one can receive anything except what has been given from heaven. You yourselves are my witnesses that I said. I am not the Messiah, but I have been sent ahead of him, he who has the bride is the bridegroom, the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. For this reason, my joy has been fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. And so that was our text from Sunday. And I really concentrated on verse 30, He must increase. But I'm was decreased. But before we get into that, I was kind of stopped as you were reading Roseanne, because what I had not read through in the text, and kind of stopped on before, but it got me today was verse 23 John was also baptizing in a non near Salem, because water was abundant, right? And I was like, Oh, that's great. Like, hey, it looks like there's a lot of water over here. We're going to baptize over here. That's beautiful, right? Just a little side note in the text, I'm like, Yeah, choose this spot because water is abundant. When you live
Tevo Christmann:in the desert, it matters, and we're
Unknown:not opposed
Pastor Joe Liles:to it, because we baptize them at kiss Creek, right? Yeah, and I literally have to go walk and make sure the creek is at a level where the water is abundant. Baptism, right? I've gone up to Taggart, not Taggart tenured, tenured Creek, right up in Belle Vista, beautiful space, but we had to walk like it's not deep. We had to walk like probably a mile and a quarter into tenured Creek in order to find a place where we could get to the side, where people could stand, beautiful space, but not deep. And so just reconcile
Tevo Christmann:so humid that you could effectively just walk outside and be baptized, pretty much it right? Like it'll just
Pastor Joe Liles:sweat through it. It'll be great. So we talked about this in the text, that He must increase, but I must decrease. And this identity that John's disciples. So it's, it's very interesting that John would have disciples and Jesus would have disciples, right? Fully devoted followers of Christ. Is kind of how we name a disciple for Jesus. The same thing was true with John. John was before Jesus, so John is paving the way for Jesus, right, and announcing the way. And before we get into that, I just want to read that too. I think there's a great scripture that happens in the beginning of John, and it's actually in every gospel that talks about Jesus's baptism. So you can hear a little bit about where John's coming from, and John's disciples are coming from as we get into this. So this is the testimony of John the Baptist from John chapter one. And it says, this is the testimony given by John when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who are you? And he confessed, and did not deny it, but confessed. And here's where the text come from, I am not the Messiah. And he knew what they were asking, even though they asked it not pointed blank out there, he knew what they're asking. He says, I'm not the Messiah. And they asked him, What then are you Elijah? He said, I am not. Are you the prophet? He said, No. Then they said to Him, who are you? Let us have an answer for those who sent us. What do you say about yourself? And he said. I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness. Make straight the way of the Lord, as the prophet Isaiah said, now they had been sent from the Pharisees. They asked him, why? Then are you baptizing if you are neither the Messiah nor Elijah nor the Prophet? And John answer them, I baptize you with water, abundant water where there's abundant water, nor I baptize you with water among you stands one whom you do not know, the one who is coming after me. I am not worthy to untie the thong of His sandal. This took place in Bethany, across the Jordan, where John was baptizing the next day. And I love this line. The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me comes a man who ranks ahead of me because he was before me. And I love that because it says that John comes before Jesus to prepare the way. And then John is saying, hey, no, this happened before me also, so I'm just here in a moment to guide and open the way in the wilderness, right? I love that language. I myself did not know him, but I came baptizing with water for this reason that he might be revealed to Israel. And John testified, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with the water, said to me, he on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And I myself have seen and testified that this is the Son of God, and it's a beautiful text. This is a little bit different than the other Synoptic Gospels, right? Matthew, Mark and Luke. And in those Synoptic Gospels, they actually talk about, you know, the heavens are open. This is my son, the beloved, with whom I'm well pleased. And we get that language from there. And then also John, sending John's disciples to Jesus, and saying, follow him, right? He actually sends in some of those gospels. And so that's where we find ourselves today, that the disciples of John are going, hold on a second. Jesus is baptizing too, and they're saying, and all the people are going to him. And this is a and what I kind of took it as is a church relationship, right? Hey, all the people from our church are leaving to go to that church, right? And we don't want that, even though it's Jesus, right, even though they're seeking after Christ, right? They're going and I think we've experienced a lot of that, just in our church culture, right? So just in a pause moment, what has been your experience, or what have you heard before about people leaving churches and going to other churches, like, what's a rhetoric that kind of exists in our society around that, that you've maybe been familiar with,
Roseann Bowlin:I think I've heard that people go to other churches because it's more modern, It's less traditional. It you know, it's various reasons. But what I hear from people who are looking for churches is, is it biblically based, yeah.
Pastor Joe Liles:And what do you mean? So what do you think they're asking when you say, is it biblically based?
Roseann Bowlin:Are they reading the Bible? Are they following Jesus?
Pastor Joe Liles:Yes. So yeah, it typically what that means in the when I receive those questions from people searching for churches, it means, do you read from scripture, right? Are you opening the word, reading from Scripture and teaching from the Word? Which still blows my mind, because I have, personally have not attended a church where they have not opened scripture and taught from scripture, but I hear more stories of churches who do not open the Scripture. I heard a story from Easter of a person who attended a church service on Easter where they never opened the word, they never read scripture, they never read the gospel, and the story wasn't about Jesus, like and I was like, what is happening, right? And so I've never been in a church that hasn't opened the word and read from the word on that and say, Well, what's your experience? What have you heard about people that kind of go to another church or think about that and what the local church responds to in that.
Tevo Christmann:I mean, there's, I guess there's many. I guess if you're looking for a church, the question you have to ask for yourself is, first, what are you looking for? Yeah, precisely. And I would hope that anybody looking for church is looking for church because they're looking to find God, and they think that they'll find God at church, yeah, and it's true, even though God doesn't live in the church building, yeah. But if, whether you're looking to find God or you have found God, Your destination is the church. Regardless, you have to end up in a church. It's not optional in any walk of Christianity to not be part of a church. You just want to dismantle the crazy myth that exists out there. Hebrew says, Do not neglect gathering together. It is not optional to try and live out your Christianity on your own. And so ultimately, then you have to then ask, what are your sort of theological commitments, right? And I think the only important thing, I think there's, there's a scourge in American Christianity, which is nominalism, the the idea that you can just say you're Christian. Yeah, because you attend church, but the Christian story doesn't galvanize your spirit, you know, and that is, that is, to me, the exact same thing as the Pharisee, the Pharisee movement that Jesus was speaking against in the first century, because that it creates a worse off scenario where we somehow sit around, especially here in the Bible Belt, and we all tell each other we're Christians and how Christians we are, without actually living out Christian things or being committed to living and pursuing the life of Christ. Yeah. And so that's that, to me, is a big danger. And so ultimately, then, like, what are you what are the sort of the doctrine that the doctrinal commitments that you have, obviously, you want to land somewhere, where you align, because otherwise things get complicated. Yeah, but, but ultimately, if you're just checking a box, go somewhere else, frankly, because you can just, just go play golf. There's so many better things to do if you're not, yeah, if this isn't something that is meaningful to you, yeah, right, you know. And so then the last thing is, if you're walking with Christ and you're looking for a church, are you at the point now? And I think that's really the case of Christian maturity in general. Are you at the point now where you can stop thinking about, does this church meet my needs, right? And do I meet this can I fill the gap in this church? Yeah. And when you get to that level of mature, it's totally fine if you're not there yet, yeah, right. It's how many people come to the churches, right? Exactly. Churches, right? Exactly. But when you get to a level of maturity, you start to thinking, how can I be an ambassador of God's Kingdom in this city, in my workplace and in this church and everywhere that I go? So I think that's kind of how I would approach, yeah, like church shopping in the first place? Yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Joe Liles:And that's a part of the way that I ended the message right on Sunday, as I said, if you're coming into this church and you're not asking the question is, what is my next step? Right? If you're not coming here actively looking at, how am I taking the next step in my relationship with God through this church, then you're just attending, Yeah, but you're just coming into one maybe appreciate the church, one that maybe you're in a season where you just need to be filled and it is a lot of
Tevo Christmann:funding. You make a lot of friends at church. Oh, it's great. Yeah, it can be a fun social exercise, but if that's all it is, yes, I think you're missing out big time. Yeah,
Pastor Joe Liles:because not just the church, but a relationship with God provides so much more than Sunday morning, right? Like that continues throughout the week. And so we really challenge people at the end of the message to say, hey, ask the question, what's your next step when you come in here, right? And it's not that the next step doesn't exist, right, but it does take a personal investment in that next step, right? We can't force you, like, so it's hard. Like, when you said, hey, they asked me to wear a dress, I'm like, Oh, man. Like, if I put language out like that in the church, like, Hey, if you're female, you gotta come in and wear a dress, right? Like, wow, right. Same thing. Like, what does it mean that you would come in and have a testimony? Hey, if you want to become want to become a member, you have to have a testimony, right? And I think, dang, it's really hard to come in and have this commitment, but you do have a personal choice, like you have a choice to take the next step. And we cannot demand that. We cannot command it. What we can say is, hey, if you truly want to deepen, if you truly want to have a relationship with Christ. It needs to be a personal relationship with Christ, and we can help guide that. We are here to celebrate it, support it, have community to surround it, to help you deepen in many different ways, but that personal choice on a relationship with Christ needs to be a question every time you come through these doors, what's my next step in that relationship? And so that was the first question. Then I said the second question is harder. The second question, I think, does deal with spiritual maturity. The second question is, okay, now, who are you discipling? I truly believe that if you're in a relationship with Jesus Christ, that God, through Jesus Christ, is sending people in the work of the Holy Spirit here on this earth into your life to disciple so that they can hear your testimony. And I believe that everyone has a testimony. I really believe that people walking into church, every single person here has a testimony. Part of the church's mission should to be to bring out those testimonies, right, to hear those stories. So we can say, oh my gosh, I know someone who's going through that, right? They would need to hear your voice, right? They wouldn't hear how you got through this, right? And then the place those two people together, right? In a really incredible way. And so we said, hey, if you're, if you're in a place where you come into this church and you're asking those questions about what the next step, great. Next step great, if you're walking out of this church, you should be asking, who you're discipling, Mm, hmm, right. You should be asking, Who is God sending in my life? Who am I speaking this to that we have a faith relationship in this and and I think it starts to get away from the church being siloed and really becoming the local church, right? Where we can all be local church, where, if it's not here, that's okay. We'll guide you somewhere where your faith can grow, and that's the hope. And in fact, there was one time that people came to me and they said, Hey, so and so left the church. And I said, Yeah, I'm aware. And they said, Hey, we need to go get him back. And I was like, Well, what do you mean get him back? And I said, ride a horse. And laughs. And I said, What do you mean getting back? And they said. Well, we should go seek after them. I said, Aren't they attending another church right now? And they said, Oh, absolutely. And I said, Great. I said, That's awesome. I said, that might be what they need, right? They might need that presence right now to deepen their relationship, and that's great. But if they have questions or they want to talk about something, Oh, awesome. I said, I'm totally in but if they feel connected, right? It's not just about the neighborhood is the only sole place where people can have faith, right? Great. I I hope they're connected, or if they have questions about that church, I would love to talk to them about it wonderful. But that reality says, Hey, your relationship with Christ is more important than the neighborhood. Your relationship with Christ is something that we want you to continue to seek outside of these doors on a Sunday morning. And so, so we kind of grew through that. We kind of grew through the 90s. And use this text as in a good example of like, how we see people going to different areas, even John's disciples after he claimed, I'm not the way. I I'm not I'm preparing the way, but I'm not the Messiah. His serve. The disciples were going, but can they go to Jesus? You know, all our people are going to Jesus. And he said, Jesus must increase. I must decrease. It's a beautiful, beautiful language in Scripture. So any final, closing comments?
Tevo Christmann:I was reading out of acts this week, and I read a passage that I hadn't remembered reading before, great. And I was like, Kara, have you read this before? Yeah, I honestly don't remember that. Yeah, there's a couple little verses in there. Acts 19, I believe, where Paul is in Achaia, so he's in Ephesus, and he's traveling, and he gets to a new town, and there he discovers some disciples, yeah, of John, yeah, great. And they're like, What are you guys doing here? Yeah, it was like, Oh, we're disciples of John. It's like, but don't you know about Jesus? They're like, Oh, is he, is he around? Is it a thing? It's like, Yeah, have you guys received the Holy Spirit? Yeah? There's like, No, not yet. We'd love to, yeah. I think to me, that was a fascinating impact that, like, sometimes we don't understand the impact that we even have Greg on other people's lives, especially when your attitude is that you must decrease, yeah, and Christ must increase. This is like, this is years down the road. The church has already exploded, yeah, the Council of Jerusalem has already happened. And Paul's traveling preaching to Gentiles, they've already made their determination on circumcision and kosher laws, and he shows up somewhere, and there's some disciples that are still hanging out there, yeah, that are disciples of John the Baptist, and they're unaware of anything that's happened, and they had to be caught up. But these the seeds we sow with our conduct in our life. They go further than, than, than we can see, yeah?
Pastor Joe Liles:And I love that definitely. I love that language, because being John's disciples, this is much like people who never attend a different church, yeah? And they have no reality that there are other things out there that exist, right? And all of a sudden they're like, hold on a second. You've gone to a different church. Well, what's that like? And they'd say, like, oh this. And this, like, Oh my gosh. That might fit, like my life at this point, a little bit better to hear from that perspective, right? And it's great. And then all of a sudden, the world opens up into this personal faith. And I've seen that a lot in this last probably 1015, years of the church, is that this personal discovery of faith again is coming back, not obligation to church, not loyalty to church, not generational identity. It's this personal discovery of faith again, coming back, or people going, Oh, I don't. I want to take a journey of my faith. And that might not look like the same church I've always been at, right, and it might look different from that. So I kind of celebrate it. I love it. So that's an interesting text. Acts 19,
Tevo Christmann:yeah, you're 18, or I love it. Just imagine how much easier what with John. John was just the ripple effects of what John was doing. How much easier that made Paul's life. Yeah, absolutely in most towns that Paul got to, he ended up in prison or chased out or beaten. Yeah, in this town, because the seeds of John, many years ago, were had been growing. All he had to say, Have you heard about new developments? And they were like,
Pastor Joe Liles:Yeah, that's good. That's great.
Roseann Bowlin:So I reviewed my notes, and I do have a couple of notes. Oh so,
Tevo Christmann:oh yeah, roseanne's notes.
Roseann Bowlin:So I wrote that
Pastor Joe Liles:note number one,
Roseann Bowlin:Jesus must increase. I must decrease. So good. Note, people need to be discipled from whomever fills their cup. So they need to go where their cup is filled. And why is that? So they can take that cup and share it. Yeah, it's great. So the important is, the important thing is to follow Jesus. So fill your cup with Jesus and then go disciple others with Jesus. And my other note was,
Tevo Christmann:well, no, we decided that we're not going to
Pastor Joe Liles:do every note. No, we gotta do note number two,
Tevo Christmann:I guess we're done. It's.
Roseann Bowlin:So what is your next step? If you come in asking the question, you are in discipleship, and that's when we grow in Christ, and then who are you following? And I was thinking as you were talking that we're all apostles. We're all teachers. We teach, maybe not with our words, but with how we conduct ourselves. And then we are all disciples, too. We're all learning and growing and changing. I'm not the same person I was in my 20s, definitely not the same person I was in my 30s. So so we grow and we change, and our paradigm shifts, and we start thinking in different ways, and our vision that said every Sunday is change church. So everyone who walks in here changes church because they come in with their perspective and their cup gets filled, and then they go out and they create relationship to share, yep, and that's what church is.
Pastor Joe Liles:That's what church is. I love that that well, thanks for pulling up your notes. I appreciate that. I'm glad you got a little bit out of the message. That's really wonderful. That's really good.
Roseann Bowlin:I just I feel like the the 1990s when churches, I think I might have already said that when churches were growing and growing, it became easy to be a consumer. Mm hmm,
Pastor Joe Liles:yeah, right, just to come in and take from church. Mm hmm, right, instead of get back to church, yep. So we're going to go back into Sunday in a very traditional way. So now I haven't talked about how we grew up and everything like that. We're going back in traditional Sunday, which we're calling sacred Sunday, and we're bringing out the elw, the evangelical Luther worship, which is the cranberry hymnal, not the red hymnal to be confused with. We're doing setting four, and we will have acolytes. We'll have a choir. We're going to walk the whole liturgy. We're going to have canticles, right, sung by Kent chanter, a chanter that was close enter the cantor. Yes, we
Tevo Christmann:chant the canticles along with the cantor, yeah,
Pastor Joe Liles:along with the cantor. So the person is a cantor who chants, the one thing we don't do is, can't we do
Unknown:not, can't we can't, no, we can't,
Roseann Bowlin:can't, can't, but we can chant,
Pastor Joe Liles:yes, well done. So this Sunday is going to be a wonderful exploration. I was talking to a pastor this week, Luther pastor, and I was saying, Hey, we're, you know, we're doing these things. And he goes, Oh, is this like a service change, like you're adding a traditional service? And he says, or is it one time deal? And I was like, Well, right now, like, it's a one time deal. I was like, that's what.
Tevo Christmann:It's a reverse proof of concept, yeah.
Pastor Joe Liles:What do you guys think of that? And people like, we love the experience, yeah. So, so this Sunday is going to be a great and then next Wednesday is Tom's ordination, right? So we got the congregational meeting after Sunday, then Tom's ordination, and then he'll be preaching on graduation Sunday, sure, which will be really, really wonderful. So that is your TNC podcast for today and all guys, people said, Amen, alright, computers stayed on the.
