Beer Freaks

Greg Koch is Afraid of Becoming a Curmudgeon & We Drink Stone Brewing's FML and Dayfall

• Stu Haack & Derek Krueger / Greg Koch, Stone Brewing • Season 2 • Episode 19

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Yes, you read the title right. Greg Koch. As in co-founder of Stone Brewing. Greg Koch. As in the co-master mind of some of the best hop-forward beers this side of, well, Earth. Arrogant Bastard. Ruination. Enjoy By. Cali Belgique. Frankly, too many to name here. But we could go on. 

We digress. Greg joins the Beer Freaks Crew to talk about Germany's reinheitsgebot, what drew him and Steve to focus Stone Brewing on hoppy beers, brewing technology and ingredients, rock and roll, and trying his best to keep an open mind and not become a curmudgeon as he gets older and wiser. All this while Derek and Stu enjoy Stone Brewing's Fear Movie Lions (guess why it's called that!) and the new Belgian White, Dayfall. Cheers to some incredible beers, and stories!

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Stu Haack:

Hey, Derrick.

Derek Krueger:

Hey, what's up, Steve?

Stu Haack:

Good to see you again, man.

Derek Krueger:

I know, man. It's been a minute. I feel like it's been like a day. Yeah. Yesterday. Yeah, that's all right, though.

Stu Haack:

We, we have probably one of our favorite brewers of all time. Me being a San Diego it is my favorite Brewer of all time on the show today. And so I don't even want to slow us down with an intro. Let's just get right into the damn thing. Rolling Hi, my name is Stu Haack. And this is my podcast about all the weird, crazy spooky things that scare me and my guests. And the one thing that helps us forget all about them. Ladies and gentlemen, beer freaks. So, we're back.

Derek Krueger:

We're back. We're back. And we got the coolest. Come on. Mike is going nuts. That's

Stu Haack:

how excited we are. We're just getting our mics around.

Derek Krueger:

We got the coolest guests do and I know this is this. You got to introduce this guy because this is your dude. It's like he is to you as Ryan Reynolds is to me. Like

Stu Haack:

he's like meeting your hero right now. Yes, this is the moment. Greg Cook, founder of Stone Brewing. Boom. Welcome to the show, man. Thank you so much for being here.

Greg Koch:

Oh, nice to be here. It's great. I'm Ryan Reynolds fan too. By the way I dead before the first one came out. And when the trailer was out, and then every trailer I would watch and rewatch and wave Sarah over and she's come on watch this. This is cool. I can't wait for this movie to come out. And she was always unimpressed. And she refused to watch it until about a year later. And then she did she's like, Oh, that was pretty good. Like

Stu Haack:

it's only a matter of time. It was inevitable. It had to come around. And now with the new Mortal Kombat movie. Apparently there's already a petition if they wanted to be Johnny Cage. They wanted to be Johnny Cage. Yeah. And the next one. Okay, I haven't seen it yet.

Derek Krueger:

It's good. It's good.

Stu Haack:

So Greg, I mean, again, I can't tell you how many beers of stone that I've drank. It's gonna probably make me sound like an alcoholic. But I have tried every probably every release. So you guys have ever had the Cali Belgie holy cow. The I mean, arrogant bastard. Like literally just going back to the Oh, geez, that is still one of my go twos. And just stone IPA. You cannot go wrong with that beer. That is one of the best IPAs on the market. And you are the mastermind, you and your co founder behind this whole thing. You guys started this whole this whole thing? I mean, Steve Wagner. Wagner,

Greg Koch:

Co Co Co mastermind, if you if if that word phrase could even apply to be ever but Yeah, Steve Wagner. My is real mastermind. You know, I'm just a puppet. You see, he's got the strings above. And I'm just hoping he sends me out to do all the stupid shit. Why he's doing the smart shit. Fair enough? I don't I don't know. I haven't figured it out yet.

Stu Haack:

Is that how you were wound up in Berlin? While he kind of stayed in hang hung back in San Diego?

Greg Koch:

That's part of it. Yeah.

Stu Haack:

Well, you know, Derek, and I watched beer Jesus recently because, you know, obviously, that's, it's it was a huge part of stones background, I mean, and it was a really interesting to hear about the stone rock and roll ethos. And the reason that you guys went there, you use terms like German beer is great until it becomes dogmatic. You were tired. You know, I'm putting a little bit of words in your mouth here of that sort of like the laws around German beer you wanted to bring craft to where beer started? Can you tell us a little bit about what you learned from the whole stone Berlin thing?

Greg Koch:

Well, you know, if I'd only learned this Epictetus, quote, Roman stoic philosopher from 2000, more or less years ago, it goes something like you cannot teach a man what he believes he already knows. And that's, I kind of learned a little bit from that. Because I can tell you that, you know, most Germans are convinced that they know everything about beer, in a very common conversation would be you know, randomly, let's say, from sitting in a bar and in Germany drinking a beer and you get in a conversation with the person next to you as you're wanting to do in a bar over a beer and like, oh, so what are you doing in Germany? Well, as a matter of fact, I'm, you know, building a brewery a bow tie in Deutschland? Yeah. I got your MADI con. The implication is you're an American and so what could you possibly know about beer? And then of course, always, next question was, and what about the Rhine heights quote, and I'm like, it just forgive me. I'm gonna be really pointed here. It just shows how little people know because Germans don't actually really know about the right answer. But it's a word. That's a word that's thrown around a lot. They see it on advertising, they see it on beer labels. Don't really know what it means. And like, yeah, it just means that barley hops water in yeast. That's not especially hard. You know? I mean, if you know how to fruit beard, you can do that. But they think it's like beyond the reach like, oh, no, it just because you were born in America, you couldn't possibly master such a delicate thing. Like, that's not exactly. And I remember, many years ago, now, it was actually in the early 2000s, I had the opportunity to go to the Oktoberfest for the first time in Munich. And I guess it was 2002 because we had just released stone Ruination IPA as a full time with beer and I brought some bottles with me. And I was in a VIP section of the Powell honor tent, through some connections, which was really kind of awesome place to be to sort of be at the balcony above looking out over everybody. And, and it was a blast. I was talking to this German brewmaster and I said, Look, I actually smuggled in some beer of my beer, but would you like to try it? And he said he was willing and I poured them a little bit and he's fun to put into this. And I says, it's it spirits often. Vasa malt and, and hay for yeast. And so but you know, barley hops, water, yeast, and he says, No, what do you put into this? And I'm like, really? It just it's just barley hops water in us. And he's like, no, what do you put into this?

Stu Haack:

What did he think you

Greg Koch:

know it just but but it's because and I learned so much from the whole thing but so so there's this I mean, I could spend a lot of time on this forgive me and pull me out of the rabbit hole if you need to. I understand. But there's this guy, Dr. narcissist, allergic Narcissus was the head of the if I get it wrong a little bit, but basically, and he was had a bunch of fun, you know, brewing for, or the German brewing feta, I don't know, something like that for decades. And as an instructor, he really led the curriculum and the teaching for the German brew masters program, which is very formalized, right. We don't really have a formalized program in the United States, do you? Like how do you know if you're a Brewmaster? It's printed that on your business card, like being a producer of a movie, like I got, I got, you know, business cards, it says producer on it. So anyways, he apparently and as the stories that I've been taught was very dogmatic. A Pilsner is this, a buck is this. A you know, each style was just very, very specific color range. Ibu range, malt character, you know, what the ingredients were, its particular yeast that were used. Were all very, very, very specific. And so anything outside of that frame, like a double IPA, American west coast, Allah double IPA, just outside of the range of, of any experience. And so, you know, there just was no frame of reference for this guy. I was admittedly put off by the fact that he essentially was implying that I was lying, you know, by his very adamant questioning. But also, it's the first time that he had appeared anywhere close to that spectrum. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised to be never had a beer past 30 IBUs at that point, and that one was, you know, theoretically over 100. So there's just no frame of reference point.

Stu Haack:

Were there IPAs at all in Germany? I mean, was anyone experimenting with anything like that? No,

Greg Koch:

no, I mean, we go back to 2002. When we came out with stone Ruination IPA, it was the first full time brewed and bottled West Coast style double IPA on the planet. So, you know, you It hadn't gotten and hadn't gotten there yet. And it was going to be more than a decade later, until, you know, IPA started showing their heads in that part of the world.

Stu Haack:

So speaking of IPAs, I mean, you guys have created some of the most iconic IPAs across the US, if not the world at this point. What drew you to IPAs, and The first place so

Greg Koch:

began San Diego we had the good luck of having the proximity to a pizza port and two blind pig and Temecula. And so, pizza port had Swami and I was a fan of Swami. And you know, we got to know Vinnie at blind pig. And you know his blind pig IPA. And I had been to I remember beers like Bombay by boat. From cheese, but brew pub name. They they had one up in Burlingame Burlingame station. It was part of the steelhead. Anyways, they had that would always on cask, it was one of my favorite beers. And I'd had a couple of brew pub experiences where, you know, big IPAs, and Steve gets 110% of the credit for stone IPA. Me just having the good sense to agree that it was delicious beer and we should release it. Yeah. And it was just, we, we discovered that we liked in our home brewing together that we both liked really hoppy beers. And so we just sort of went down that that tunnel.

Stu Haack:

And then and then you went on to change the palate of every craft beer drinker, at least on the West Coast, and probably across most of America. Yeah.

Greg Koch:

I couldn't have seen it coming on any spectrum at all. Because the, it's really, I didn't set out, you know, we didn't set out to change the palette, we just set up to make beers that we thought were we liked a lot. It was a very different world. And it's, I'm sure it sounds weird, and maybe not even believable. I don't know, for me to sit here today and tell you that when we opened stone, we never thought we would be significant on any level, we never thought we would make a mark. There were already 850 breweries in the United States, again, by today's standards of 8000 Plus, you know, a 50 Sounds like it's a you know, more blank space on the canvas than then, you know, a space that's been painted on but but that's not what it felt like it felt the opposite, it felt like the canvas had almost no white space on it. And we were too late to make a mark, but we really just wanted to open our brewery anyways. And I think that was kind of good, because I think it helped us right from the early days, not try to chase after the palate or the perceived palate of the consumer. Instead, like, if we don't think we're gonna make a mark, we might as well too. And we got into this as a passion play, we might as well just kind of go our own way. And it was the benefit of going on our own way that actually helped us make a mark.

Derek Krueger:

And I think I think that's such a good statement, you guys did it for the passion. And I think that's what people need to do is like they can't look for, you know, you can't look for the credit, you can't look for any, like, if you're doing something you got to do, because you love it and you want to do it, you know that passion is a huge key.

Greg Koch:

You know, I think a lot of music analogies, and, you know, if I think about the, you know, the seminal artists, the seminal albums, the very best ones are ones where they're being true to themselves. And they are very good at what they did. And, and they didn't try to please the public, right? They just went to so whether it was you know, YouTube or Metallica or the Grateful Dead, or, you know, you can have a nice list of really amazing artists, they each kind of were their own thing. And, you know, if you're trying to chase after the palate of the consumer, which I admit it's, it's not been zero ever for stone. That's just not we don't make it our main thrust, right, but sometimes you gotta go, Hey, we got a business to run. You know, your, you know, music analogy, that's was the, you know, go look at the billboard 100 charts for 19. You know, 87 to remember all Yeah, remember that? Right? Whereas you don't need any billboard Hamilton charts to remember Dark Side of the Moon, or Master of Puppets, or the Joshua Tree? Or? Yeah, so so it's, it's, that's that spectrum. And, and I think that, you know, following your own heart and following your own style is wonderful if it happens to match up with and we didn't know at the time that matchup was where the palettes were either going or willing to go. Yes,

Stu Haack:

yes, right. It's a bit of sarin serendipity along with your passion.

Derek Krueger:

You essentially gave people what they didn't know they want it. You know what I mean?

Stu Haack:

Yes, oh, absolutely. Henry Henry Ford was the one who said if I had asked consumers what they wanted, they would have said faster horses one of my favorite phrases of all time.

Greg Koch:

I agree. And then you have Steve Jobs where this you know, people don't know what they want until you show it to him. Yeah, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Derek Krueger:

Yeah, yeah. Right.

Stu Haack:

Absolutely. Yes. So So Greg, you mentioned Metallica earlier, you, you have done a partnership with Metallica for one of your beers, if not more, actually. You've said you've hung out with several celebrities over the years. Who's your favorite? And why is it Lars Ulrich.

Greg Koch:

I can tell you, no matter how you would appraise it, I probably I probably would have come around to large just because I got to know him a little bit better than maybe didn't you know, because I've had the chance to, you know, brush pass or, you know, rub shoulders at various times. But I one thing I really admire about Lars and I know better example of when he visited came to our anniversary celebration a couple of years ago, and did that walking around, and I just kind of really introducing, it's good. You know, he was one that he was willing to show up and to that he was willing or mixed with the public and kind of really trying to experience what craft beer is all about, and really getting in deeper because he had a good basic understanding. But you know, it's coming deeper. And it was so funny watching people, you know, normally in our anniversary celebrations, people see me and they're like, Hey, Greg, you know, part of the celebration, Hey, Greg is one of the co founders, I'm happy to see him and I five gonna take a selfie can do the you know, because we're all celebrating. That's what we're there for that day. So plenty people were like, hey, great. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, shit. And so I always felt super good about the high reaction that I would get when people see me walking around. But it was, you know, that was so off the charts. Really. It was really awesome. And he was so gracious. And he was just like, hey, man, how you doing? And it was it was it was awesome. So I you know, I was kind of inspired by his willingness to just be you know, hey, good, chill all that.

Stu Haack:

Yep. Cool. Absolutely. You wanted to be a rock star before you became a brewer. And one of your quotes was actually that you didn't feel like you were ever making art when you were making music. But when you became a brewer, you now feel like you're making art. What is your most artistic beer? And what makes it artistic to you?

Greg Koch:

That's a that's a really great question. I did a kitchen sink version of stone imperil Russian Scout a few years ago. Back really, really, really early when, like the additive ingredients into Imperial stouts. Were starting to become a thing. You know, first, it was barrel aging. And there was like, oh, maybe some coffee. Maybe I'll add some you know, like I I put it and I loved it. I love this. I think we might actually call the kitchen sink. It was a draft only special thing. But it was not especially well received. Oh, my No, my I think here's my art. One is crime and or punishment, crime. And

Derek Krueger:

those that's that's the one I think we saw in the documentary about because we were watching you about the organic farming and all the stuff that you did. And she was talking about that you had extra peppers, and you're like, hey, let's put it in the beer. And that's where crime and punishment came from. Which I still tell you I'm massively like I love spicy beer. That is my jam. Anything super weird. Super spicy. So when I heard about that, I'm like, Oh my God. That's awesome. So

Greg Koch:

yeah, so as you saw in the documentary, they are my mother's favorite beers. My wife Sarah. They're her favorite beers. There's, there's so many. It's interesting when we've done special events. Like I did a 40 Tap takeover tour a years 10 years ago, it would typically run out first or second. And nine out of the 10 people would come up and grab me by the collar and go what is this? And where can I get more? How can I get more? We're winning? Yeah. I found that fascinating because my mother doesn't especially like spicy food. And it's when you know we're staring at your tire or Indian food. I always want it more spicy than she does. And yet when it comes to those beers, she's like, it's so interesting how it's sort of the because the physiology between men and women in the in the palate. It's it's been demonstrated to be mostly their palates are better.

Stu Haack:

And the things about women are better.

Greg Koch:

Wait, yeah, we could go down a long list and that's true. Yeah. But you know, it just interesting and yeah, but I love those beers. I grew a lot of chili peppers. I still grow a lot of chili peppers, a bit of a hobby of mine. Yep. And and so yeah, we made some special barrel aged versions and ended up being Crime and Punishment.

Derek Krueger:

Okay, so because of the art right, like I'm I graduated with an art degree and so I'm definitely I'm kind of there with you. So technology wise, what do you think like what has beer technology done for the industry? And how is it heard it? If at all?

Greg Koch:

I think that's a really great question and it has a lot to unwrap and contemplate there. So if we're going to think about another analogy, I can think about like CGI or even Auto Tune in music. But let's let's CGI, if you're Forgive me to the Michael Bay fans, but if you're Michael Bay, maybe you're not using it that much on the art side. Yeah. And, and, but it can be used like any medium. You know, you it can be used in artistic ways and it can be used in you know, ways that are a little less so. So I think it's really about how it's applied. So technology in brewing, you know, hop extracts, for example, you know, Vinnie Russian River was one of the people that taught us that you can use hops extracts as some from an artistic perspective, and within a really great artistic result. Whereas hop extracts had historically been the only on the commodity side of the equation. And just used by industrial brewers as a cheaper way of adding their you know, fairy wand. There's a sticker theory like gibberish here's where the sound team can you a little starburst at the end of my 20 Tinkerbell one here? Yeah. I think you get the point. Yeah, I just said 10 three times in a row now for and that's that's gonna be a production effects.

Derek Krueger:

Yeah. And we're using that we're using your sound effect for it.

Greg Koch:

I realized I did that to myself. So we got to hit these. Okay, it's about time.

Derek Krueger:

Yeah, it isn't. My mouth is dry. Yes. So we got the stone FML.

Greg Koch:

But forgive me if we're gonna taste both of them. You should really go date golfers.

Stu Haack:

Oh, okay.

Derek Krueger:

Yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right. You got to do that.

Stu Haack:

We we should have been more prepared. But you know what, that's the thing. I'm just you know, I liked the hops. I was going straight into the fear movie lions. But you know what, no prob, this is this is a relatively new beer for you guys. Right? The day for?

Greg Koch:

Yeah. Have you actually had it yet? Or will this be a first sampling for you?

Stu Haack:

I might have dug into work permit to us a little bit.

Derek Krueger:

Students showed up to my house with two beers. And you send them like 21.

Stu Haack:

I was like, eight, like for the FmlS. And for the day falls. And I might have you know, gotten down to two of each. So he liked it. I liked it.

Greg Koch:

I think this is I think this is great. Because no so now we have a spectrum. You know, you've you've had some before and you know, you haven't had it yet. So, yeah.

Derek Krueger:

Alright, so here you go buddy. Up in it. What do you got over there? Greg, do you have anything? Are you gonna just talk us through it?

Greg Koch:

I actually because I was late, and I'm like, Oh, shit, I got I just grabbed my iPad and I set this up and I, you know,

Derek Krueger:

came in, you know,

Greg Koch:

this is a beer style that I have to admit, personally, you know, the American version of the Belgian white style is not been my historical favorite style. It's often been, I think, to sweets, and just fear, you know, the depth of flavor profile isn't always been, you know, all that awesome. But, you know, our team wanted to do this. And I thought, well, you know, hey, anytime our team says hey, we'd like to, you know, do this or do that and we're like, well of course because you guys are artists. You're awesome. And of course they'll try it and I really love I think this is a to my college is pretty unique take on the on the style, being true to the style as well as having some uniqueness to it.

Stu Haack:

Look, this is you guys sent us beer and we're enjoying it and I would agree like for this day fall one of my favorite things about it is it was not overly sweet at least for me. You know, when I think about obviously, like everyone knows Blue Moon right? You think about even Allagash white which I think is actually a pretty good one. It's still got I mean it's definitely up there right? This one immediately to me that was like this could be my go to if you guys keep around. I don't know if it's going to be seasonal or if this is going to be around. But I will tell you specifically when I'm hung over Belgian whites are pretty much should go to for me. It's I don't know why it just sounds particularly good at that. Yeah.

Greg Koch:

I've been hung over in it. And I think it's been a decade since I've been on over. Maybe I've stopped trying. Or I've just drinking enough water because I know usually it's like water. Water is like the real culprit is not enough water. dehydration. Yeah. But

Stu Haack:

well, I remember I remember you saying that. Because like, I mean, you were talking about this whole wave that was coming out with the low calorie, low alcohol IPAs that was like the thing over the last couple of years. And you were talking about like, hey, look, guys, I've had at least two IPAs a day for basically the last 20 years of my life. And you know, if as long as you do it in moderation, and you're not going nuts with it, you know, you don't need this low calorie stuff. So I imagine that you're also you're you're having at least two but you're probably not having like eight you know, and that's probably where the The Hangover range and you know, the, the not putting too much weight on kind of thing is working perfectly.

Greg Koch:

Yeah, look, check out these IPI guns. Look at that.

Stu Haack:

That's what I'm talking about.

Derek Krueger:

I got to ask Greg after. Okay, so with that at this guy, nobody makes me feel bad drinking beer. And he's, like, jacked over here. Jesus.

Greg Koch:

Call that Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I'm lean. I'm laying

Derek Krueger:

there you go. See? But I do have to ask about the hair. Because obviously, you know, seeing you, we've seen you with no hair. No beard. What do you prefer? Man? Like, do you prefer beard? No beard hair? No hair? What's what's kind of like, what are you feeling?

Greg Koch:

impression is I am ultimately lazy when it comes to that. So I prefer no maintenance. So I kind of don't care. So okay, I like it. I've loved shaving my head. And then just not touching anything for the next year. Nice.

Derek Krueger:

Okay, it's cool, man.

Stu Haack:

That makes perfect sense. Yeah, I like it. If I had to shave every day, that's why I don't grow the stubble specifically for a reason. But if I had to shave every day, I'd go nuts.

Derek Krueger:

I understand. Yeah. All right, Greg, you got to tell us now about the fear. Yes, part of this here, you know, what is gray or movie

Greg Koch:

lines afraid of? So I am a bit of a super, super amateur, no formal education, philosophy. And so, you know, things like stoic philosophy and a variety of other constructs, but as well, as also the sort of, I've always considered starting to be a philosophy based company, you know, we came from the, well, why do we want to do this? And what do we hope to achieve and you know, sort of, like the philosophies behind things. So, in that I've been fascinated, you know, to read, we all know about the, you know, the kids, you know, the, the, the younger generation these days, and you know, the differences and how they're having trouble connecting, you know, with blood with traditions that cannot pay, like connecting with each other, connecting, you know, with, with authority or not in, you know, responsibility and living all these things, and the challenges that creates, and the reality is that's existed forever, forever and ever and ever. And ever. There is no generation that hasn't said that about the the upcoming generation, right? So you can find citations, throughout history, like throughout all of written history, those exists almost almost saying verbatim what I just said. And we think that everything is different. So what I don't want to be is I don't want to be the proverbial bitter, angry, cranky old man to get off my lawn, and, you know, the music. My day was, that was good music, but the music stuff is just noise and it's no good. And, and, and, you know, I would never eat something like that. That's, that's, that's what foreign people eat or, you know, I don't know any of those things where you get that look wrinkled, and you're just like, limited. I've been there. I've done that. I know. I know what I like. I think that the the, the, the, like, the code for the phrase, I just know what I like, is code for. I have stopped being interested in learning exploring and being open to new things. Yes. And that's what I see. I actually don't want to do that. So that's my fear is that I will be the get off on my lawn. Because I can't The Old Man and me wants to get out. Oh,

Derek Krueger:

yeah.

Greg Koch:

He lives in here. Yeah,

Stu Haack:

yep. And do we all hear it? We all hear it. Yep. There's a psychological statistic that says the average age in which people stop listening to new music is 34. Really, and I have new music. I'm 34 I'm 36 and I, I have new stuff all the time. You're still feeling good about Yeah, so I'll admit, like, probably about a year ago, I'm kind of like, you know, is this new rock and roll really even rock and roll? You know? Yep. And so I felt myself pulling away but then I heard that statistic and I was like, Look, I can't be that guy. So I totally hear you Greg. Totally.

Greg Koch:

It's, it's so common actually in and it's studies have shown that it's actually 18 to 22 primarily 18 to 24 where the music that happens that period of life is the music that sticks with you as you're sort of like what you identify with now you'd like you guys are more open people they're gonna still learn and it's what you identify with. Yep, and like I'm excited to Carsey Blanton go idea of know who that is. She's just got a new album dropping on Friday. I'm excited about it. And she's like, phenomenal I've been historically she she couldn't be less metal she is definitely not metal

Stu Haack:

it's always good. You know when people like you always hate to hear people who are like I listened to you know, just country that's the only music I listen to. It's like guys and put up your your mind a little bit, man. Like there's, there's a whole like, I like you know, what's her name? Kaylee read Jepsen, or whatever.

Derek Krueger:

Carly Rae Jepsen,

Stu Haack:

you know, told me or call me maybe I liked that song. Do I also like, you know, Metallica? Do I also like disturbed? Do I also like Panthera? Absolutely. It's all about the moon little Carly Rae Jepsen from time to time when I'm feeling a little you know, whimsical? Yeah.

Derek Krueger:

It's all about the mood man. Like there's days I love just putting on some jazz while I'm cooking. You know, doing my thing and like, I could sit down with some wine and just jam out. Sure, you know, but then there's days like today, you know, I'm blasting 90s like Psalm 41 in The Man Cave, you know getting ready for this interview. And it's like It just all depends on the moon. It's all

Stu Haack:

about the moon. Yeah, all about the moon. But

Greg Koch:

friends over last couple of nights ago and then I don't know how it came up. But maybe that will come up came up and they'd never heard of Babymetal so I pulled up YouTube and introduced them to the Baby Metal

Stu Haack:

Can you describe to us what Baby Metal is pleased?

Greg Koch:

I cannot you must YouTube search Baby Metal just trust. It's not what you

Derek Krueger:

literally. Is it like a baby's ink with metal Japanese

Greg Koch:

with the super cute girls in their little cute outfits. Three of them one in the middle. And then the two like immediate backups and doing all the dances and like read it out to music that is Babymetal and they like huge metal festivals and concerts and you can see the stuff and then got like a sea of fans out there. Just jump in and it's hilarious. No, okay, I can save only the biggest Baby Metal fan. But it's like you know super cute Japanese doing all the dance move the choreographed dance moves exactly like you're doing that's our version. That's the best we can pull out we're not trained. It's not

Stu Haack:

my faults, you know my flaws. My you know? Yeah, absolutely.

Greg Koch:

It just it just really it kind of takes your head and it turns it sideways. And you're like, I don't know what I think I love this. But I'm not sure. I think I made

Derek Krueger:

but Greg question for you with the fear. Like, do you what made you like kind of realize that was a fear of yours? Like you didn't just kind of like give into it and just you're like, what? At what point were you like, oh my gosh, I can't I like I can't be like this. Was there something you remember?

Greg Koch:

Yeah. When just when you you find it sneaking ends and you find that you're doing that thing so I can you know it's the it's it's when you think you know better or how something is supposed to be done or anything like I've experienced this in business. It may seem like a leap but it's not. So I remember I was visiting in early 2000 Delicatessen, this old town called Lyons, Colorado, and he took me out back and they had this brew pub. It was called Oskar Blues. And he says, Greg, I'm gonna start canning my beer in a little little desktop set. There was a tiny, tiny thing and I said, Dale, don't do it. You're making the horrible mistake. Cans are bad, you know? So because I Greg Important, Greg, I'd started my brewery in 1996. And now it was like, you know, 2002, six years later, I had six years of experience in the industry and I knew what could and couldn't work and I knew what you should and shouldn't do. And I was full of my, both posts. Those kinds of things when you get when you when you get convinced that you know the way when you're like, you're you're sneering at like, I can't believe what they're wearing today, or I can't believe in

Stu Haack:

what and it sneaks

Greg Koch:

up on you.

Stu Haack:

So like, you'd never want to be the guy who just says no, because you know better. But you also in some cases do know better because you have that experience. Clearly you're successful. So like, when so let me ask you this, when you see these milkshakes, you know, milkshake IPAs, when you see these? You know, seltzers when you see all this stuff come out. What do you think? And like, do you try to step back and say, Okay, maybe there's something to it? Or do you say like, go? Why?

Greg Koch:

It's probably a combination of the both there why? It is combination? Right. My first reaction sometimes is the Are you kidding me? I was completely dismissive of hard seltzers when they first cook. Absolutely. I mean, honestly, how could you not be there like, flavors were either non existent or just not good. And to way too sugary. And, and is way way to, like, blood. Like if you actually sat down and tasted like I have, you just like, sit down and tasted put in a glass and you're like, you're got a few of them and you're like, trying to go through some sensory analysis. They don't show well, it's, no, no. And so I was, you know, you know, act like a wine cooler, go the way the wine cooler. Remember wine coolers, ya know? And I was, I was thinking that that's what what would they were a little post high school for me. But if in high school, I'm sure I would have been consumed, I'm sure of it. Boone's Farm wind farm. I didn't do that thing. Yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah, I literally did the classic stand outside a liquor store. Our dates were, you know, and my buddy was around the corner. I was the one that I was like, is some older guys are coming, you know, up like, Hey, buddy, can you buy us some booze?

Derek Krueger:

You had? You have to do that at

Stu Haack:

some point? Yes,

Greg Koch:

I totally did. And that's it. And the guy came out with some good and so I'm, and I'm like, I think that'll work. That'll do it, you know, back in music. And you can look at any trend, and you can look at the throwaway pop the junk, right? Maybe it shoots up the charts for a little while. But then inevitably, a lot of stuff just ends up in the where are they now been? You know, where are they now file. And so, but you can often find that, some some some core that either came out of it or created that particular trend, where there was some real stuff that was of merit, that that that existed, and it's sorting through some of that stuff. I mean, we're looking at the Seattle sound, right? So we can easily now that Soundgarden, Nirvana, you know, Alice and James, they're a little different, but and then there was so much carry on stuff so much just like, throw away, but it had a similar sound, but you know, the, the poor man's version, or whatever. And you can look at just about any trend, and so you can find a lot of fluff a lot of kradic, though. Yep. But is there a core somewhere? Or was somebody like, what I hope we have been able to do with our point of view to shelter that we are coming out with, you know, in a couple of months? I, you know, I hope that, you know, the team said, Look, we think we can make something that's that's worthwhile. Sure, you know, like, Okay, well, I'll admit, I've got my routing cap on. Yeah, that's called My head is my doubting cap, because, again, that whole Old Man thing that we talked about, and it's, it lives in here, it wants to come out of

Stu Haack:

your heart. On that one, you're gonna be a hard I was imagined

Greg Koch:

I was. And, you know, I got to the point where, you know, there's, there's some team in St. Louis, you know, showing this believing the sales opportunity, and, you know, ultimately, we are also in business. And I got convinced of that. And I was willing to accept, like, good enough. It's crazy. I mean, I'm saying this out loud. And just set it in a recording and I'm not super proud of it. But you know, I was willing to accept it because I thought that was all that was possible for the category. And I think that they exceeded it. Now people Come make their own lines, as everybody should, as people make their own lines about our double IPAs, and everything else, right? Make up your own mind. But I, I'm super proud of what we've done. And then the flavors, and the quality that I think that we're going to be producing with that. So it's like, I didn't think it was even possible to get there. You know, I thought this was what's being done. This may be could be a new height. And I think we took it a little bit above there. I'm not going to claim that we've taken it to like, oh my god, it's the most beautiful thing ever it was in it's still within the category of 100 calories or 99 calories and and, you know, three grams of carbs. So it's within that, that sort of that that expectation packaging framework. Right. Sure. Yeah, sure. But I think I think I think they kind of knocked it out of the park within that, you know, at the upper ends of that framework. Okay, enough about hard seltzer but yeah,

Derek Krueger:

I mean, the hard seltzer is kind of nice on a hot 215 degree day. It is nice. Yeah. You know, do I drink it all the time? No, I love all this good stuff. But so I'm excited. You guys are coming out with one super excited about it.

Stu Haack:

All right, good. Let's hope stone does it right. And I we have we have confidence.

Derek Krueger:

You guys make a killer product? I mean, you can't I mean, seriously, you can't go wrong with anything from stone, including, yes. Fear movie

Stu Haack:

lions. FML

Derek Krueger:

FML. We need the explanation. Yeah.

Stu Haack:

Where did this come from?

Greg Koch:

Okay. So this, this conference that I attended a few years ago, I was standing every year, preparing very Ted, like Ted, ask Ted Ted like conferences with amazing presenters, and I met this guy. And he started this this company, app based, called What three words. And their mission was to address the addressable or unaddressed. So what they literally did, you know, using computers, of course, they covered the world in a pattern of 3,000,000,000,003 plus trillion, three meter by three meters, a 10 by 10 foot by 10 foot squares. And gave each one of them a three word, name. So fear movie lions, is the name of a three meter by three meter square, it's smack dab in the middle of our Richmond, Virginia, brewery, Stone Brewing. And in you use this app, or use navigation from now Mercedes, and I've made a bunch of car companies, a bunch of like delivery companies, DHL, or others will, will, will be able to deliver if you give them the three word combo to your address you want to deliver to. But even if you'd like you think there's so many countries that are using it now as their addressing system, you think like a favela, or a slum, but not you know, in India, they don't have typical addresses. But not only that, let's say you're in the middle of, you know, the desert or a forested area, or you know, the savanna. How do you actually triangulate it? Well, of course, you can have very long, unwieldy, long longitude latitude numbers to do it, or you can use this one three word system. And, and so it's enabled. And I use it when I'm meeting people, like an outdoor concert, or an outdoor plays like a large beach area or something, go here, I'm at this, and then you can actually map to that exact three meter by three meter. So that sort of was I looked, it's so much fun to use the app, what three words? And whenever first thing people do when they unload, they started looking at their own house, their driveway or the front door and see, you know, what's the word for that? And like, oh, well, right next to it. And so I did that. And I came up with a list of what I thought were the three most interesting or the most interesting three word combinations in our brewery, because this beer was created by our Richmond, Virginia brewing team. So I wanted to honor them by coming up with a what three words name from our brewery that was located, you know, in or around or maybe at the front door or wherever, and I found this one right in the middle. And it was just a better at best, it was like pure movie lines. I don't know what that means. But it sounds cool. And I like it. And I will tell you honestly, I did not put together for more than a year after it was released. The FML part. I did not put that together. I cannot claim that always.

Stu Haack:

I thought it was always an intentional way to do just to like an FML like, you know, but that is really cool. Okay, like, what about what about your Escondido brewery? Do you guys have a good set of names for that one? Like when you use this app Yep.

Greg Koch:

Yes, I don't remember what they are. I think we what we do is for each one of our locations on our website, we have a what three words and it's designated by the three and see the three lines being before the word fear on the on the can. So that's a convention. It's a three slashes. And then the first word, a dot, next word, a dot. That's the convention of their system.

Derek Krueger:

Oh, yeah. Awesome. I would have never caught that. That's awesome. Ya

Stu Haack:

know so much more about the spirit. Yeah,

Greg Koch:

this is so you'll see that on our website. For each one of our locations. We actually include a what three words location? So it's a brilliant system, but you got to get your head wrapped around the new kind of thing a little bit. Yeah.

Stu Haack:

I mean, it totally makes sense. I mean, are like FedEx and UPS and DHL getting on board with this kind of thing. Oh, absolutely.

Greg Koch:

And you want drone delivery for example, the you know, the automated delivery thing. You give them your like, you don't give them your your address, which could be anywhere on our property. Yeah, you know, you give them the what three words square and it will go to that spot. And as I said, this pure movie lines was created in Richmond, Virginia by our team and they're as, as a blend between an East Coast style hazy and a West Coast style belt, stone style IPA, and it's sort of like it's it brings the two elements together. So it's got actual real bitterness. But it's gotta love that juicy, you know, hazy character. Tell me what you guys think of the beer. Just been sipping on it. Well, fine. Yeah.

Stu Haack:

This is one that I've had several times, and I can't get enough of it. I feel like I know more about the beer. I feel closer to it. Like we could be friends now. Not that we weren't already close. But yes, it's got the hazy elements to it. Which you know, I know you love Yeah.

Derek Krueger:

I've never been an IPA guy. I'll tell you that. Like Stu came in. And he's like, I love my West Coast IPAs and what the heck, man, this is nuts. But the more and more I'm getting into it, the haze these are bringing me in. And now like other IPAs and tried to get you in there getting me in the door, man. And I'm not blasting my palate because you know, I'm starting slow. Right? So this is fanned. There's something about this and not even because you're on here because I speak my mind had been in trouble for it. So trust me if I didn't like it. I would tell you this slide. I mean, yeah, it's it's, it's awesome. Like, there's nothing like I'm not going like, you know, making that that weird face when you drink a beer like this is great. And

Stu Haack:

and it's it's actually you know, the thing. The one thing, Greg, that we have a challenge with his drinking these heavier beers, even though it's a hazy, but like, when is it when you're in Vegas, and it's 100 degrees outside? And it was already at five today? Okay. Yep. So like we're getting warm already. It's hard to drink a heavy IPA, when or a multi beer when it's that hot outside when it gets into 115 degrees and August. But this what I love about fearly Lyons is it's got a little bit of floral illness. It's got a little bit of levity to it. And my palate might be just totally off. But that's that's what I'm getting from it. And it feels lighter, where I can sit outside 105 degrees. Totally sip on this, and that'd be perfectly fine.

Derek Krueger:

Yep. 100%. Man, I could drink this all day. Seriously? Well, you know. Yeah. Water. Yes.

Stu Haack:

But great. I mean, so, again, not to, you know, just continue to just talk about how cool stone is, but you guys have set the pace. You've changed the game for IPAs, you've changed the game for a rockstar personality for breweries, and basically given the middle finger to you know, the man, you've given the middle finger to the big breweries in one way or another. I know you sued a big brewery recently, and you kind of kicked their ass a little bit. I want to ask you, you guys are setting the standard, but what breweries inspire you?

Greg Koch:

I'm happy to say so many. I'm happy to say that there's so much about you know, so we might go okay, some milkshake IPAs out there lack any structure or backbone. But there's some good ones. And there's some segments that people have done something with beer at every turn that I either never imagined or I didn't think was possible. Like you couldn't do a good one of acts like we're talking about point of Vaser earlier and you know, lighter style beers, I think craft beer rescued that style from the clutches of the industrial brewers who had taught us that that style was vacuous and a throw away and not worth your time on any serious level. And maybe just if you're, you know, gotten done mowing your lawn, and frankly, I didn't even do But then to say, Okay, no, actually you can have a beer that's like, that's not empty. It's not, you know, simple doesn't have to be like, complex and all these tasting notes kind of approach, but you can just have a beer that simple and satisfying yet, as there's something there's a there there, versus there's no there there

Stu Haack:

isn't there? There's a there. Yes. What, it's a perfect way to say.

Greg Koch:

So I like that. And so my inspiration I'm gonna hold back from, you know, naming a specific because really, it should be a laundry list. And I should have prepared in advance if you're going to answer that question. And all right, but but there's, brewers are doing crazy stuff. And I'm happy to say also in my, you know, in my own company, you know, it's our small batch breweries, and, you know, the pilot and innovation team and just the stuff that we come out with. It's brilliant.

Derek Krueger:

Yeah. All right, Greg, I do have to ask you this to end this deal here. So if you had any advice, because I know a lot of people may have your beer in they're curious about making beer. And I don't know for how much you love stone and everything. What advice would you give to another like home brewer that's maybe just like getting into the game? Or has that epiphany like you had an Anchor Steam? What if someone tries your beer? And has that epiphany? What would you tell them like advice to give them?

Greg Koch:

So well, if you're a home brewer with no commercial objective at all, that's awesome. Then I It amazes me how often homebrewers I rented a home brewers and they basically describe the beers that they brew and they brew them all for other people. I think that's a lot of the I just want to create something and share and I want people to like, yes, that's fine. Of course, you're trying to make people happy, but the wonderful thing, but there's the chance to just go, I am not going to try and make anybody happy. I'm brewing this beer for myself. Somebody else likes it. Fantastic. I mean, we always like that. But that enables you to sort of break free from from from conceptions, right. It's like we were talking about way at the early part of the show, it seems a little while ago. Now, the German you know, the you know, brewing school system of a, a style of beer tastes like this, it's made this way. It's, you know, very, very, very narrow and specific. Well, as a homebrewer, you will talk that out the window, do whatever the hell you want. Fancy and experiment. Cool. If you're getting into from there into professional brewing, try and take as much of that as you can with you. Because it's, as you said, Art, you know, the quote I gave earlier, which is an old one, you know, it's like, if you're doing anything unique or special or worthwhile, you're gonna get pushback, you're gonna get people that don't like it, that people not liking something you do is an important part of doing something great. Because the best part, right is, is not trying to make people something that everybody likes, but instead something that some people fucking love. Yes, and a lot of other people don't like but that's okay. Pay attention to the people that so I use Metallica is a great example. You know, most people don't like Metallica. They're the only American band with six number one albums. Still, most people don't like Metallica. But the people that love Metallica fucking love Metallica. Fucking love great because they're being Metallica. They're not trying to be this other thing. So, yeah, that's, that's my kind of thought process to get into. As you're seeking to, you know, use your art or just be a cover band and play whatever the the, you know, tunes are on the radio right now. And that's okay to fully enjoy.

Derek Krueger:

Well, thank you. Thank you, Greg. So much. Seriously, I know we've we've totally gone over time. But you've been amazing. You know, this is this is great, man. You man, you guys

Greg Koch:

are great to talk with easy conversation. So you make it interesting and you bring it out made me just like being like, oh shit, are we added to overtime for like a five, five or 10 minutes like, oh, no, like I buy an hour. But I didn't realize

Stu Haack:

it was 545 Thanks for reminding Greg. Poway kid growing up. I gotta tell you, man, this has been a dream you've made my year. Thank you for coming on. I got to thank your director of PR she is incredible. Just as easy again, I need to send her several baskets of chocolate one of which should go to you, because I also do work for chocolate company, but that's a whole other thing. But things

Greg Koch:

like 83% Enough 83 85% That's my spot.

Stu Haack:

All right, good. stuff actually coming your way. Okay. Great. Okay, thank you.

Greg Koch:

So thanks, guys.

Derek Krueger:

Cheers. Buddy.

Stu Haack:

I mean, seriously, Derek, that was, that was a dream come true. It was insane, man. So I don't even have anything else to say because I'm still just like whirling about the whole thing. So audience, everyone who's listening, we're probably gonna post this on Facebook too, or YouTube. Yep. Everyone who's watching, thank you for watching. Thank you for bearing with me as I was like nervous through the half halfway point of the interview. I think the beers eventually got to me, I felt a little better. So, guys, Derek, thanks for bearing with me on this one. And we'll be seeing