Own Your Work

How to Stop Silencing Ourselves and Others with Author, Elaine Lin Hering

• Sonja Holmes

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In this conversation, Elaine Lin Hering discusses the power of silence and the importance of unlearning it. She shares her personal journey from being a lawyer to becoming a leadership development consultant and author. Elaine emphasizes the need to create safe spaces for individuals to speak up and challenges the notion that speaking up is solely an individual's responsibility. She also explores the unintentional ways in which people silence others and suggests ways to design communication for inclusion. In this conversation, Elaine Lin Hering discusses the importance of considering different voices and perspectives, unlearning communication patterns, and being authentic and honest with yourself. She also explores the process of finding your voice, embracing different ways of operating, and overcoming shame and doubt. Additionally, she shares insights on rediscovering your voice, experimenting and intentional exploration, and the importance of supporting underrepresented voices.

Takeaways

  • Silence is often an unconscious coping mechanism in response to a lack of psychological safety and the fear of negative consequences.
  • The burden of calculating silence should not solely rest on individuals, but rather on creating environments that encourage and support diverse voices.
  • Recognizing and addressing the biases and stereotypes that lead to silencing others is crucial for fostering inclusive communication.
  • Designing communication to accommodate different preferences and needs, such as using various mediums and considering time zones, can help create a more inclusive and safe space for everyone to speak up. Consider different voices and perspectives when communicating and making decisions.
  • Unlearn communication patterns that may exclude or silence certain individuals.
  • Be authentic and honest with yourself about your preferred methods of communication and participation.
  • Finding your voice is a journey that may require rediscovery and intentional exploration.
  • Embrace different ways of operating and recognize the value of diverse communication styles.
  • Overcome shame and doubt associated with not knowing or doubting your own voice.
  • Experiment and intentionally explore to discover and develop your voice.
  • Support underrepresented voices and challenge existing systems that prioritize certain voices over others.


Elaine's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elainelinhering/

Elaine's site: Website: 

Pre-Order Book here: Unlearning Silence


https://www.sonjaholmes.com

Speaker 1:

Friends, I cannot wait to share this episode with you. So I had the privilege to sit down and interview Elaine Lynn-Haring, who's the author of an upcoming book called I'm Learning Silence and it drops in March, by the way, so make sure you pre-order it. But she had the book on silence and how we basically silence ourselves, how we silence others and what we can do about it. We talked a lot about this in today's episode, but let me tell you a little bit more about Elaine. She's a great leader, creates an environment that supports rather than silence people. With individuals that she works with, she helps them to use their voices to build the lives that they want. She's consulted professionals in six continents, across cultures, to build skills in negotiation, influence and conflict management. She's a Harvard law graduate and she's also taught at Harvard. She's taught at UC Berkeley, ucla, and that's just a name of few. There's some other ones on there as well, too. She coaches women and people of color on navigating executive leadership in majority white spaces. She's someone that you want to learn from friends.

Speaker 1:

There's so many notes that I took in this episode. I can't even go over it all, friends. I'm still highlighting and taking all the quotes and all the things and all the notes, so I can't wait for you to tune in. Let's get into it, friends. All right, elaine. So welcome to the show. Welcome to the Own, your Work podcast. I'm so excited to have you here.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, yes. So we're going to get right into it. Today. I want to just open it up for our listeners and just let them know a little bit about who you are and what you do before we get into everything. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 2:

Yes, I am a human being. That's where I'm going to start, first and foremost. Right, first and foremost, and I say that intentionally because there's so many assumptions. Right, when you look at someone, when you hear someone talk, when you hear that they're a mother or an author or a business person or a recovering lawyer, there are so many assumptions about the person. Yes, I went to Harvard Law School as a student. Yes, I have taught negotiation and communication at Harvard Law School. Yes, I have worked and consulted on six continents all of the sort of business things that people talk about. But I'm human, I'm broken, I'm a work in progress and also believe in the power of change and people's ability to change and people's ability to learn and to unlearn, and I'm someone who's really excited about the possibilities that can come with that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that. I love your intro and how you addressed that. First, because we can easily just start putting labels on ourselves, right, totally. And we do it and we're at a meeting and a networking event is that's the first thing we're telling about all the things versus who we are, and I love that and I love the acknowledgement of the human part of it. Right, you are a person. I'm a person, right. Yeah, I love that I love that so much.

Speaker 1:

One thing about our community here with the Only Work Podcast, we really, really. It's a place where you do not have to bring a cape right, where you do not have to always have it all together and be a superhero and all the different things right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I just love that you started with that, I love that you started with that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. And let's say, even before you get to the networking event, right, we're asked to put ourselves in the boxes. So I had the unique experience of leaving, or having to leave, the place that had been my professional home for 12 years this year, and what I found was, even as I'm signing up for the conference or the networking event, or even as a speaker, they're like who are you? What organization are you affiliated with? And I'm like I don't have an organization. Do I make something up just to have it? Or why do I have to have a job title? And what assumptions do people make about me because of my job title or lack of job title? I mean, president Obama's Twitter is husband, father, former president. And I'm like, if that's okay for Barack, like do I get to be mother? I'm not a former president. At what level do you get to do that? But even thinking and I just remember ranting to a friend, being like can I just be Elaine Lynn Herring?

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Can I just be me and let that be enough, rather than having to have a job title and an affiliation with an organization? Now, I understand the world is organized in that way, but what would it be if we just signing up for conferences and events, it was your name and the question we started with was not what do you do or who do you work for?

Speaker 1:

But what's?

Speaker 2:

your story. Yes, oh, I love that and people can answer that question however they want. My story is I am a product manager at X company, because that is how I am indoctrinated to think about myself, or I'm from Tennessee, I'm from Thailand, whatever. But that openness to the different parts of ourselves and the acknowledgement of multiple dimensions and also agency Agency to disclose what we want and what we don't want to disclose.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that. I love that so much because it is it's so common. You know, the very first question is always what do you do, right? Or, and it's so much of our identity. I feel like it just gets wrapped up in this and it's a lot of work, especially once you come to a place where you're acknowledging and you realize that and then you're trying to undo and unlearn all the things?

Speaker 2:

Yes, well, and Sonia, I'm. When you say what do you do for work, I'm like, what do I not do for work? How am I supposed to answer that? I am like head chef, chauffeur, cleaner, landscaper, designer, social organizer and author and you know. But like, what do we not do?

Speaker 1:

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2:

I'm done with my soapbox.

Speaker 1:

I love your. I love your question, though I love what you pose as a alternative question. Right, I have those kind of discussions, so let me ask you that question. Yeah, what's your story, Elaine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Sure, Thanks for asking. I am someone who went to law school because I always wanted to be a lawyer. My observation I was one of those precocious 11 year olds and I was like I want to be a lawyer, and not because my tiger parents told me I should, but because I was working with a local nonprofit at the time and observed they were having issues with the county and observed that their general counsel Law was a language that if you understood the language, you could speak that language and affect change. So that was my mindset. So I went to Harvard Law School intending to be a litigator, to learn this language of law. What I discovered is that being a lawyer at a big firm was really deadening to my soul. It was 13 hour a day staring at a computer and not interacting with another human being. What I also discovered in law school is this world called negotiation theory and pedagogy. Essentially, how do you communicate with one another? That is not something that I learned well in my family of origin, which, the more people I've talked with, it seems like that's most of us. No wonder we have problems with each other in the workplace, because none of us actually learned that at home or at school. So my life's work became other than sue each other and blow each other up. What can we do? It turns out a lot. So it put me on this path of leadership development, which is not a field I knew anything about. It wasn't one of the options when it was like what do you want to be when you grow up? Oh, I want to be a leadership development consultant. I just didn't know it was a thing, but it's a thing. From there was really a journey of how do we help ourselves and each other to communicate more effectively. But the latest chapter of my story is actually author, which is a story in and of itself. The topic of my book is unlearning silence how to speak your mind, unleash talent and live more fully out. By Penguin Random House, March 2024. So if you haven't preordered it, I'm making that plug now.

Speaker 2:

Yes, but how I came to that, I think, is worth sharing the story, because I am that person growing up where everyone said speak up, speak up, use your voice, and that's well-intentioned advice. But it's so lacking in context and at times is downright irresponsible because it puts the onus on the individual to say you are doing something wrong If you're not getting the outcomes you want. If you're not getting promoted, that's on you. It's your problem. You just need to speak up, and particularly for those of us who carry marginalized identities or historically marginalized identities, we know it's not because we haven't spoken up, it's.

Speaker 2:

When I spoke up, you told me I was wrong. When I spoke up, you stopped inviting me to those meetings. When I spoke up, my team disappeared from under me and we got reorg'd. But there's no relationship, of course, right, Note the sarcasm. And so I got really frustrated with doling out the same advice that basically said well, you should just do it. And thought well, why don't we speak up and why don't people negotiate or have difficult conversations? These skills that I've been teaching and that people pay a lot of money to learn in Harvard Executive Education. And I landed on silence. What silence have we learned from our families of origin, from how we were treated, from how we were educated, to how my manager doesn't actually need to tell me not to say something like in the meeting. They just that look.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you're like, oh, not safe, not worth it, not going to go over. Well, so what silence have I learned? And my silence isn't just about me and your silence isn't just about you. But in what ways are the leaders around us silencing us, in the very same breath that they say, oh, I'm here to support you, and so really wanted to tackle that subject, because silence is everywhere it's in our workplaces, it's in our teams, it's in our families, and it undercuts our ability to have intimate relationships with our partners and with our children. It is what makes abuse possible, because we don't talk about it or, when people report it, we don't believe them. And so, if we want all of that to stop, we need to unlearn silence. Unlearn the silence that I have, the silence that I unintentionally force upon the people around me, and it's going to take all of us together Totally.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm so excited and just really to have this conversation with you. I came across you on LinkedIn and your post about that and then your book Taito. It just immediately resonated with me Now. I'll share with you a little of why. Because, for me, I feel like I personally have been on a journey to finding and using other ways, and so I even called 2023. To be completely honest, I said this is going to be the year of the voice.

Speaker 1:

for me, this is the year that I speak up, this is going to be the year that I share my perspective more, but I started to think about some of the things that stopped me. Why am I silent? And so I've become curious of I've never done, I haven't done the work to try to figure out. Okay, where did I learn to be silent? Right, I haven't.

Speaker 1:

So I was so curious to just get your perspective on that. Like, how do we learn those ways? Like I can't pinpoint for me a particular moment, and it's funny because when, if you ask, like maybe some really close family members who I feel completely safe with, they will tell you that I cannot stop talking Right. But then in the workplace or certain places, the feedback that I had been given for a long time is we want to hear more from you, but I didn't feel safe right.

Speaker 1:

And so I didn't even know why I was silent those ways. So I love to get your perspective on that. You know I've done a lot of work on it and I have done, but it's not always even received sometimes.

Speaker 2:

So I love for your thoughts. Yes, oh, and Sonia, I love that 2023 has been the year of voice and I love how you framed that right Finding and using our voice. So, let's, let's back up a bit, because that's exactly when you say I can't pinpoint where I learned to be silent in certain contexts. That's exactly the challenge. Because silence is so insidious, it starts out so subtly that we don't even notice it's happening, because silence is an absence, absence of voice, absence of self, absence of oh, I guess I better not share that part of me, whether that's, you know, hiding, having to hide that I'm a mother, because then I'm going to be stereotyped as unreliable in the workplace.

Speaker 2:

Having to silence or not share my sexual orientation because of the assumptions people are going to make. Having to hide what class or educational background or fill in the blank I come from? Yeah, because it's not normed. There's so many different pieces, so one is just it's so insidious that it completely makes sense why you can't pinpoint it. So where actually start is not where did you learn it, but what would you say is your current relationship with silence? How does it manifest? And I think you've done a beautiful job of saying around my close friends. Not a problem, right? But in certain workplaces it shows up or for some people is certain topics Like. I will give you my opinion about what restaurant to eat in, no problem, but talk about money.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Talk about asking for money, talk about descent or disagreeing opinion. Those are the things that I stay more silent. And often silence is a coping mechanism Because it's not psychologically safe, because somewhere along the way you learned that when you use your voice, when you either physically say something or the way that you move through the world, when I say voice, I don't just mean the words that we say, but I mean how you move through the world.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And the more you're excluded for that, the more you are inclined to silence yourself because you've internalized the messages that you're getting from the people around you. Essentially, it's oh, that's not the way we do things around here. Not that it was ever documented or communicated how things are done around here, right, but anytime you carry a subordinated identity meaning not the dominant identity in corporate America is mostly white, cis, male, usually older other people say pale and stale. That's not on me If you're not that we're inherently othered and it's inherently an uphill battle to bring anything of difference. And Nilefer merchant has this amazing statistic and analysis that anytime you're less than 15% of the entirety, you're more likely to be othered, and by being othered you're more likely to be questioned, doubted and excluded.

Speaker 2:

So then we wonder why we don't speak up or share what we think. I mean it's an uphill battle to start and often people say we'll just be more courageous, like, have courageous conversations, and the problem is that you're not confident enough. And I'd say I'm going to call BS on that, yeah, because maybe over time I have lost my confidence, but I don't think it's a courage issue. It is courageous just to show up and exist. Yeah, it is a calculation issue and, by the way, I think my calculation is pretty spot on which is there's no one else like me. If I say something, if I bring that part of me in, you're going to question it. You'll probably doubt me, you're going to debate me, you're going to get defensive. I don't have time or energy or bandwidth for that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I need to actually do my full time job because, by the way, there's a double standard for the quality of my work compared to yours.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So am I going to use my voice? Yeah, well, I've got to choose really carefully because there's only so much of me to go around. Yeah, and I would say for people who have been racialized and minoritized, our work is to make sure we stay sufficiently whole, and the great pickle that we're in is that oftentimes, we're the only ones who can see the inequities in the workplace because they disproportionately impact us. So then, is it on us to call them out all the time or call them in, I don't care which way we want to position it, it's still work. Right?

Speaker 2:

My calculation is if I say something, I have to educate you. I have to deal with your pushback, I have to hold that emotional space. By the way, white fragility means that I gotta be really careful not to trigger you. So, when I think about own your work, we each need to be owning our work, including educating ourselves on cultures and people who are different than us, and not by asking the one person in the office to teach us. Yeah, because it's 2023. Going into 2024, there's something called Google.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, and there's a lot. There's a lot you could find. Yes, yes, I love what you were talking about, just the onus putting the toll, the emotional, the mental toll that comes on. You know, that comes on one to have to make those calculations all the time, to try to figure out, to be held responsible and some and for me, sometimes it can also be a form of gas lighting to feel that you are the problem. You're the problem. Yes, if you just do this, if you just speak up more, that is, you know, be more confident, be more courageous and all these different things, I'll solve it, so you just have to work on you, but it's like it's ignoring some of the actual, you know, systemic issues.

Speaker 1:

Some of the actual issues that are actually there. So I I love when you you talk about that, and I also love when I was reading about just how do we because I think sometimes individually you know we don't want to speak up as well too, I think there's a challenge of, if I do, getting put into a box or a category that is very hard to get out of, and that is the the challenge.

Speaker 1:

I think that we also have to weigh as well how will it be received, because if I speak out on this, or if I challenge or if I, you know, question or anything, yep, there is a bucket that can I can easily fall into, reinforce an idea that exists about me and yes how I am supposed to be.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and that bucket and that stereotype is not because you did anything. It's because you exist as you are.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right, which and I totally interrupted you because I got excited Because that's exactly, it's actually not on me Change how you receive me. I can control the outputs that I put into the system, which is why some of us are editing what we share and silencing parts of ourselves. But if we talk about work, it is your work to think about the biases, the boxes, the stereotypes you're putting on us, to disrupt them and unwind them. Because until you change the way you interpret my behavior and the way that you might label me, I can't. It's going to make sense for me to stay silent, because that is survival, because that silence is self care. That silence is how I pay my bills, how I can go home and be present for my family. That's why chapter three of my book is called when Silence Makes Sense, because all the calls to just say use your voice don't factor in the calculation of.

Speaker 2:

But it makes sense for me to stay silent because of the incentives that are here, because of what is rewarded in this organization, and I can't burn myself out and I can sacrifice myself to put my neck out there, and people have, but I lose everything I worked for and I lose the opportunity to have influence.

Speaker 2:

So there is this balance of am I playing the long game, am I using the power that I have now and not underestimating it? And who else can be doing the work together? Because my call to action is whatever privilege you have from being light-skinned which includes white from having more than six months savings in the bank account, from having whatever education, how do you use that privilege for good, not getting caught up in the guilt of having it or denying that you have it? And I put myself in that category too, right, having gone to Harvard Law School and having taught there, I have an incredible amount of privilege. How do I use that and how do I burn some of that to try to move us further on the arc toward justice, because other I mean progress is far too slow.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, we've got time for that. No, I don't have time for that. I love also to where you talk about the privilege, and I do think we all have that some privilege, right, some version. Yes, and I think there's also a responsibility and something that I think about as well too. It's funny, I was doing a legacy statement with someone recently and I was working on it.

Speaker 1:

I'm sharing that 2023 is the year of the voice, where I number one, know my voice, trust my voice, use my voice, but also make space and hold space for others to use their voice, and so not even fully knowing what that looks like. But I think there's also, too, a responsibility. How do I make sure that I'm not unconsciously or inadvertently just silencing others as well too? You know playing at that game as well too. I think sometimes we can be unaware of when we are also the person who are causing other to be. You know, to choose silence because of certain things that they have to calculate. So is there things that we can do to create a more, I feel like, safe environment, a more just where others voices are welcome? What are?

Speaker 1:

your thoughts on that.

Speaker 2:

I love that question. So that's chapters five and nine of the book. So I'll try to do the condensed version Right, but essentially you know what I offer.

Speaker 2:

There is nine different ways that we unintentionally silence people. Let's dive into a couple here. One is just not realizing how hard it is to speak up, fundamentally underestimating the challenge that someone who grew up differently, has had different life experiences, might find it hard to ask for help, might find it hard to ask a question, and I say this lovingly because there are so many people who it's like, well, just ask, like my door is always open. It's like actually there's so many layers, some of which are trauma, that make it really hard for me to do that. Or, in my culture of origin, for me to ask you as a higher power person would be disrespectful, and so I'm having to unwind that. So one way that we silence people is actually just not realizing how hard it can be. Another way that we silence people is expecting them to communicate in our preferred communication medium. Yes, and we sit at workplaces all the time, because in workplaces we tend to prioritize people who can do real time communication and speak in three succinct bullet points with no arms and just the right amount of emotion, that you show that you care, but not too much that you undermine your credibility, yeah, right, and it's like, how much contorting of myself do I need to do to fit that mold? And, by the way, because I'm female or because I'm Asian, when I do that, you're still going to change the goalpost on me and that's exhausting. So the way to support someone's voice would be, particularly if you manage them, particularly on your team. Right, as we're talking about working together, is it okay to use Slack, text, email, written communication versus real time, particularly as we're working remote or across geographies? Right, any time that you are not in someone's prime time, you are inclining them towards silence.

Speaker 2:

Right For the people who are not morning people, to get on that 8am call, like your brain is not firing on as many cylinders. Now my husband and I have a challenge because I'm a morning person and about 11.55, right before noon, I start to go downhill in terms of processing ability. He's a night owl, so about one o'clock in the afternoon he starts to ramp up and so we're like okay, I guess we have like 12 to one where we're both like me the challenge about this that silences people and that perpetuates this unintentional silencing is that if we are not actively designing the ways that we communicate, we default to the communication preferences and patterns of those already in power. Right, we schedule the meeting around the CEO's ability. We make people show up at headquarters oh, but you took a red eye to get here and you took the last flight out because of your kids, but you're supposed to be on. Yeah, right, is your voice going to be as sharp as clear? So, and then I hear people, and I can hear people being like but that's just reality. Sure, it is reality that we are managing, yeah, ways to work across time zones.

Speaker 2:

And there's a question of how do we optimize for voice If you realize everyone in your team actually processes best and communicates more effectively by being able to type? Why are you having face-to-face meetings? Right, open and quiet? Why, other than this is what we do, this is how we work. So I really want us to interrogate those things, and harder to do across a group of people, but in a one-on-one right, a manager and a director for it.

Speaker 2:

If you both hate and don't do this live talking thing, well, communicate a different way. There are a ton of different tools. The other is so optimizing for it and the second is being intellectually honest about which voices you're elevating and which you are inclining towards silence by the mediums you choose, because there's no perfect way. But let's acknowledge that if we're asking someone in India to stay up till 1 am their time, that's much harder, just from a physical body capacity, than it is 9 am and that happens to be your power hour. So let's honor that and there's so much more. But that hopefully starts to give a start to the ways that you know we don't. We mean well, and I think leaders especially mean well.

Speaker 2:

But one of the things I've learned is just there are different ways to do it, and that's true at home too. Right, my husband's gonna hate me for saying this, but you know I'm like, hey, we need toilet paper, and if I say it, it doesn't land as well because he processes better with written communication. So we have a shared like Apple phone note now and it's like, oh, you pick up toilet paper much more often now when I put it in the app. Then when I tell you verbally like why would I not do that? Because I'm benefiting as well.

Speaker 2:

But it is really stopping and interrogating how are we communicating, how are we working together? Cause these patterns are so well-worn and sometimes we don't even stop to question them. It's just how we work, and so that's the process of unlearning, and unlearning doesn't necessarily mean that we're not going to ever have real time conversations anymore. There's so much as let's be intellectually honest about it, let's do what we can to optimize and really evaluate what is serving us and who we want to be, and what we might want to leave behind.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I love that so much when you were talking as well too. I just thought about like how you know just important just that pause is for us as leaders and really questioning what you said, you know, interrogating what we normally do, and I think there's an element that comes as well even as you describe your relationship with your husband as well with that is the relational equity, like that has to happen, you know, because again, we all have different preferred methods and then just different ways that we things compute for us and like hit home and you know I'm finally.

Speaker 1:

I feel like having the grace with myself as well to say that it is actually okay that I'm certain ways, like where maybe this isn't my form, or maybe I don't always have to be on at this time for this time, or I don't always have to speak up at this time because and like really trying to be honest with myself about that- and honor that and even when it's not received, and also honored and respected in all those different things, but really trying to hold space in that compassion for myself to do that, that's been probably, I think, one of the biggest like learnings on this journey for me is like that authentic place of what's honest for me.

Speaker 2:

And so-. Yeah, and Sonia, I wanna add, because so often the things that make us us are characterized as weakness, when it's really just wiring.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right, I don't speak in here and, to be clear, there's a reality to all learn. You know I'll work and do what I can to try to speak, and through succinct bullet points, yeah, but there's gotta be room for different ways of operating such that we aren't sending the message to each other your week. You can't cut it if you aren't wired in that way. Yeah, because what happens is we lose out on all the genius and beauty of who people are, and so we don't get the best ideas, we don't get to know people, we don't know how to support one another. So I actually wanna go back to something you said in the beginning, which is finding your voice, and I really hit this point of like I'm a grown woman, how can I not know what my voice is? Why would I have to find it? And the shame that comes with that as well, versus I might have lost my voice or doubted my voice or not known what my voice is, because I've spent my life trying to be what other people expected of me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I've spent my life at work trying to do other people's bidding because that was the job. So then of course it makes sense that I wouldn't know what my voice is, because that's never what I was rewarded for. I was rewarded for what that project manager A could do on behalf of company B. So I just want to encourage us in the spirit of compassion with ourselves and grace with ourselves. If you're thinking I don't know what my voice is, that's okay, that's not you. That is often an unfortunate outcome of being in the world and the workplaces that we exist in.

Speaker 2:

When I started on this journey of writing on learning silence number one, anyone who writes a book I just have tremendous respect for because it's a lot. And writing a book on unlearning silence while trying to unlearn your own silence is like mental trip but really worthwhile and I'm so grateful for the opportunity. But someone gave me a quote and it's up here. But they said you know it's by a saint. It was like be who you are and be that well. And I was like, oh shit, I don't know who I am, I don't know what my voice is because I doubt whether I even have a voice.

Speaker 2:

And so chapter six of the book is how to find your voice if you lost it. Because some of us are rediscovering that we had voices when we were babies and cried, and then people told us to shut it. People told us that big girls and big boys don't cry, and so we lose that fiery, uninhibited ability to communicate. And it is a journey sometimes if you're in that group or that camp or that season where you don't know what your voice is. I just want to say you're not alone and it doesn't mean that you're stuck there forever. And it is a process to rediscover it a little by experimentation and intentional experimentation, to say what is my voice, who am I, or who am I in this season and who do I want to be, because our past also doesn't have to determine our future.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I love that.

Speaker 1:

I love that so much and I love, I love this, this conversation. This has been so I feel like it's just been so helpful for me. It really spoke to my soul a lot. Honestly so glad, you know, because it's been just a journey that I've been on, and I know as well, too, that others as well, and my listeners and those who are in my community, will really, really benefit from this, and so I just wanted to say thank you so much for sharing and just really opening up. I cannot wait to read and let me tell you, okay, I'm like I'm ready, so it comes out in March. How can can you let us know? How can we find you? How can my listeners get in touch? Follow?

Speaker 2:

you.

Speaker 1:

What is the best way?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I am on LinkedIn basically every day. That's the best place. So, at Elaine Lynn Herring and I'm sure we'll put it in the show notes as well and I would encourage you and invite you to pre-order the book, because pre-orders do count. And I will plug that to say and my husband keeps saying, and he's so sweet, he believes in me and and he's like I wish you had some of my confidence because he's like I'm sure he's going to sell a million copies. And I was like honey, it's not that I don't have confidence in me, I don't have confidence in the system, because when you think about, or when you Google let's talk about Google when you Google top leadership books, you get John Maxwell, you get Adam Brandt, you get Daniel Pink, white man, white man, white man and maybe on page two, you get Brene Brown.

Speaker 2:

People like me don't get to write great leadership books or things that the market sees in that way, but to me this is also about pushing that envelope, to recognize and not pigeonhole us. I have written a leadership business book, a wellness, personal development book. I think it's pretty good. I hope that it nourishes people and this is a long way of saying every pre-order matters to signal to the market that people care and want this. So, so honored Sonia, to be part of your journey and to be part of the own, your work community. So thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

Yes, you're so welcome and I will put it in the show notes. Friends, please make sure you do that pre-order. And yes, we will support you and I will definitely put it in the show notes. Thank you so much, elaine.

Speaker 2:

Thank you Be well.