WEBVTT 00:00:00.718 --> 00:00:33.238 I'm here with the Reverend Jackie Gatlin, Pastor Christ Church, Memphis. Today we're going to talk about loving well, those that we disagree with. To start this conversation, I want to frame it, that this is about in person discussions and disagreements with friends and family. This is not referencing disagreements that we get into online on social media. And this is also not about disagreements specifically with strangers, although you could maybe take some points from that. So to start, Jackie, I want to welcome you and say thank you for being here today. But I want to ask a really broad question to start. 00:00:28.708 --> 00:00:34.319 So just as a broad strokes, why do we disagree? 00:00:35.520 --> 00:02:02.459 Lance it first of all, let me say it's always fun to talk to you. But now it's just a delight and a privilege to be here with you in this space. So thank you for just the opportunity of that. So the question is, why do we disagree? You know, well, there's not just one answer to that there are just dozens, if not millions of reasons that we disagree. It can be because of what we bring to the conversation to that moment, what our life experiences have been, we may have a difference of intellectual or educational experience. A lot of it though, I think that we find is it's often personal preference, you know, that we have a leaning towards one way of looking at things, it's our worldview, how that's been developed. But but you know, I really think personal preference just plays that that is like the number one thing that all these other things kind of play into it. But I think the main reason is that we disagree is that we we don't take the time, and the effort and real emotional energy it takes to connect and to communicate that there's just a lot of work that goes to, you know, people say that they don't want to, they don't want to chit chat, they want to have meaningful conversations. But those are work. So that's when I think of the word disagreement, I think of the word defense, that's one of the first words that comes to my mind is, and so what you're saying is that a lot of this is just a defense of what we believe in hold true. 00:02:03.209 --> 00:02:46.050 Well, if you look at the definition of disagreement, which I did, it's just it says a difference of opinion, by I thought, Oh, that is just a shallow definition. Because disagreement plays into all of who we are in plays into our emotions, our intellect, it can play into us physically, I mean, you know, when you've had a disagreement with your fabulous wife, it affects you physically, and it does with me with my husband, that we just we take it in. So it's more than just a difference of opinion. But, you know, it's, it's where we are just disagreeing on what we think is the topic, but there's always more underneath that that we're looking at. So how do we how do we find out what that is, underneath that level? 00:02:46.050 --> 00:02:47.009 How do we get there? 00:02:48.659 --> 00:03:05.819 Two things, I think, I'm gonna want to talk as being a Christ follower. And what that means that we have the Holy Spirit in us, that we are known by God, which means that we are able to know more of who we are. To get at it, we have to understand what our intentions are, what are our own heart motivations? 00:03:05.969 --> 00:03:27.810 Where are our leanings? And when we are in that, then we are able to, to step out of that that's a secure place for us. And then be curious, that's gonna be the word. I'm just I'm always thinking that way. I be curious about what is it about this person? That gives them the reason or what why are they looking at things that way, but I need to understand it. 00:03:27.930 --> 00:03:47.460 Usually, the disagreement is not just the presenting thing. It's what's behind it. And that's where we usually don't go to, you know, we're not willing to say, Okay, this is going to take some time and energy to figure that out. But we're usually what the presenting thing is, it's not the thing. It's what's underneath it. 00:03:47.610 --> 00:03:57.270 And I think about when in conversations with friends and family, those relationships are often the most volatile in the sense that I know them best. I know the triggers of them best. 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:08.939 And so how, you know, knowing that going into disagreements with those, how do we be cautious of those volatile things? Because I mean, I know what triggers my wife. And so when we're in a disagreement, I'm probably going to push that button. 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:16.290 Oh, yeah, the old button pushing? I only think that yeah. 00:04:16.589 --> 00:04:20.069 You know, part of it is it's the way we're approaching people. 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:49.769 Are we looking for wins? Are we looking for who has the power in the moment? You know, like, well, she obviously doesn't get it. So therefore, I have more information than she does. And so you're really kind of suddenly saying, Well, I know more than she does. And so therefore I have more power in the relationship. That isn't who you want to be, particularly as a follower of Jesus. And Jesus never was doing that with people. Coming where we were going with that? 00:04:50.430 --> 00:05:44.009 We were talking about our close relationships are the most volatile and since we know the most intimately, yeah. And so I also think with the close relationships that there's Also, typically a place where we think we might be safe, that you know, this person, would they're not going to walk out on me that, you know, I mean, we can unload or engage in this conversation because we think that person probably isn't gonna leave us. Which isn't always true. Because they can check out emotionally in many ways. But But yeah, it is something. Yeah. Why is it that I can have disagreements with my husband that I would not never think of even engaging with with someone else? Well, it's because I'm in a covenant relationship with him, and that there's gonna be something in there that is gonna be shaping me in in that disagreement? Yeah. 00:05:46.439 --> 00:06:03.149 Well, that's I think, too, when you talk about relationships, that's one of the biggest points of disagreements is because we're afraid that when I when I think about relationships, I think about hard conversations, hard conversations, get you somewhere. It's never fun. 00:06:00.420 --> 00:06:06.029 They're never comfortable, they're always uncomfortable. 00:06:03.149 --> 00:06:17.459 But those hard conversations are where you really grow in your relationships with people. And I think having disagreements is having those hard conversations and grow with people. So how much value is there to having these disagreements in a relationship? 00:06:18.569 --> 00:07:37.740 Well, it depends on you know, how willing How much do you really want to have a relationship that has any substance and meaning, there's a line that I learned a long time ago, that growth always takes place in the context of conflict. And so if you understand that, then it's not just an argument or a disagreement, that there's something that about me that I'm going to learn in this. And the other person too, but often what we're dealing with now, just in our culture, is that people aren't that that's not what they're interested in. They're not interested in the growth, you know, they're just interested in being right. And so you know, so that, but if we know that that's what growth is, there's always something for me to be to be learning. I had a situation with my husband last night where I didn't understand something. He said, Well, what about this, like, oh, oh, wow, I never thought of it that way. Do you I mean, and so so that is the value of just being in relationship with those that we are close with that we're willing to hear what they're saying. And be willing to say, Okay, this is the opportunity to be growing, talking about hearing what they're saying I think about James, when it when it says be slow to slow to anger, quick to listen, those kinds of things, you know, talk about the value of listening and have conversation, that's not always our first instinct, especially when, you know, like I referenced earlier, defense. So that talk about that for a second. 00:07:40.800 --> 00:08:43.830 I James was right, be slow to you know, to speak quick to listen. Because there's always something that we're not understanding, I have to assume that I'm not completely understanding, like, I put my own filters on that person. And so I need to be able to hear what they're saying. You know, the other is, you know, and that there's just always a phrase that should be quick to come off our tongue. And that is just to say, Tell me more. And then listen, tell me more. And then listen, you know that, again, it's that curiosity thing, getting down from one layer going lower, lower lower tip to really the heart of who that person is. But you know, just being heard. You know, I mean, I know you experienced this with your wife, how often has she said to you, I just want to tell you this, but then you were quick to listen, but then you want to fix it. She didn't want you to fix it. I don't want my husband to fix it. I just want him to hear it. Because then then I feel valued as a person. 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:54.690 Because usually when we're saying something, we know that it can't be fixed. And that's why we're in the state that we're in. But it just needs to be heard. And then I'm then I'm feeling loved, and I'm seeing. 00:08:55.740 --> 00:09:24.929 So I think what you're ultimately saying and every conversation, we should be looking to ensure that that person is being seen and the disagreement when you know, I think about when I've talked politics with my family, you know, I'm arguing a standpoint and they're not in there arguing their standpoint. How do we come into this with a sense of open mindedness because that's, you know, when you vehemently disagree with someone, open mindedness is not your first step. That's fine. 00:09:31.558 --> 00:09:33.839 Sorry, just repeat that, again. 00:09:31.558 --> 00:09:34.438 I'm trying to see where you're going. Okay. 00:09:34.769 --> 00:11:38.100 So I think about when I've vehemently disagree with someone say if we're talking politics or something, I'm pretty steadfast in my opinion, and what I'm asking and saying of this other person, and they're going to be probably equally steadfast in their opinion. So how do we come into those kind of I know, especially hot topics like political politics and religion, people are going to be steadfast in their opinion. So how do we and we're going to be in the same position So how do we take a step back? And listen to what they're saying, when we already know where we stand in these situations? You know, again, I go back to, you know, what, are we really hoping in the relationship? are we hoping to understand where they are politically or why they why they are or not wearing masks? That's not the issue, you know, that that may be the presenting thing. But it is, what are people looking for, they're looking for connection. You know, I really just been reminded lately, just of what we were all looking for, from the day we're born, we're looking for, for things we're looking, we've already talked about, we want to be seen, we want to be sued, meaning that are things you know, we need to be fed, we need to be taken care of, we need to be soothed. But then we need to feel safe. And then along with when you're feeling safe, and you're feeling that you're receiving comfort. And you're you can be confident. And then you're secure. So that if you're if you are in a relationship with somebody, and you're around that table, and you're talking, you know, politics or maths or vaccines or not, you know, you think that way, or am I seeing them and hearing them? am I presenting myself in such a way that I am allowing them to see me because sometimes you talk about that defense thing? Oh, yeah, sometimes that wall is just so high. But now am I it's in my body language is the tone of my voice, am I approachable, it so that I can be seen as well. 00:11:33.809 --> 00:13:58.110 Being soothed, you know, want to know that, hey, this is going to be okay. But I've been in the safety thing. That's usually where we we stopped, we miss it when we don't go past. You know, we don't do well with seeing and hearing. But where we need to be able to have those conversations as if we're feeling safe, where they can be confident that what will be said won't be? Whoa, the response won't be a harsh one, like a dismissive one. That's often what we do with people when we disagree with them. I'll just say it with an idiot. I mean, we're either saying it overthinking it. And we know what Jesus said about what's in our heart. So if we're even thinking it, then we're already on the wrong track. But no, it's like, no, if I want to create a safe space, and if I, you know, if I am the Christ follower, if I'm a fault, you know, Holy Spirit's in me, then I have the ability to create that safe space, there's nothing that's going to happen to me, I'm not going to lose anything, if I'm creating a place where they can feel safe. Because the question isn't, you know, whether they're, you know, wearing the mask, water set or not, that's not the topic, you what you're really going for in these situations is you're looking for connection, because that's what we long for more than anything, we don't long for getting you on board with my politics, we're not looking for that we're looking for a connection, that all those other things provide, which then leads us to feeling secure. But you know, but that's what we're looking for is the connection. So if we have those conversations that are really hard. And part of me, I kind of getting distracted thinking those conversations that I have had, that were harsh, and you know, kind of turned on my heels and walked away, either I really did that, or I did that internally. He now it's like, the important thing is that we have the conversation. Because he I think we don't want to have those conversations, because we're afraid people are gonna just turn and walk away. But if we have a connection or difficult conversation for 30 minutes, then we are farther along in that relationship because we had the conversation than if we didn't. So the goal isn't to win, the goal is connection. And it doesn't the other person doesn't have to be thinking that way. But that's it, that's what's driving you. 00:13:58.230 --> 00:14:27.779 And that's going to drive your posture that's going to just change the relationship. Okay, we disagree. But man, we were connected in that, and I didn't I wasn't made to feel like an idiot. But that's what it is, you know, just, you know, that's what Jesus did with people. You know, like, he would say hard things, he would engage with them. But he never called anybody an idiot. He just didn't. He kind of revealed things. And then it was kind of up to them what to do with it. 00:14:28.259 --> 00:15:04.470 But he didn't pull back is love from them. He didn't walk away from them. You know, there's nobody that we've said oh, Jesus turned on his heels and walked away from me know if anything, Jesus came further into the relationship. Yeah, which is what God does with us all the time, moment by moment when he's coming after us. He's entering into us when we are the ones that are just kind of being crazy. But but guys always coming after us always pursuing us. And that's what that's what we're doing in these in these conversations are pursuing that person. not the topic, not the presenting point, pursuing the person. 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:28.200 As I think about, you know, we like to build ourselves, we like to insulate ourselves with comfort and the people that we love. And I think about when we disagree with friends and family, I worry, or I think the worry is that we're losing that person from our bubble, that this person is no longer agreeing with us. And they they may be losing our friendship or losing the family value there. 00:15:24.750 --> 00:15:42.269 Is that do you think that's a real concern? When we disagree with those? Oh, I think it's totally legitimate concern, but that that's what we think. But I think we need to change what our perspective and what our hope is in that relationship. I mean, I'm thinking of family members, I know where they stand on this. 00:15:42.389 --> 00:16:00.779 But you know, on that situation, they know where I stand on that situation. But man, I want to be gathering around them, I want to be enjoying who they are, because that's not the essence of who they are, where they are politically, or any of those things, that's not who they are. 00:15:55.860 --> 00:16:10.919 We are we want to be the people that are going after the heart of who they are, and revealing that. And if we disagree with him, okay, we disagree with them. It's really okay, that's not the sum of who they are. 00:16:11.100 --> 00:16:35.730 Even if they think it's the number one thing, we have to be able to look at them and say, That's a, that's just a smidgen, just a small part of who you are, it's not really the essence of who you are. So that's what we get to do with people is that we get to kind of pursue them in such a way that it was a great thing to be able to disagree with somebody. And then at the end of the conversation, gosh, we're still a different place. 00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:57.330 But we still care for one another. We haven't written each other off. I mean, that's what we have, right? We've got the Kancil culture, we've got the Twitter mobs. I mean, it's just you know, that just throw people her in horrific ways. I mean, the things we know that you know, what's out there, but we can't do Kancil culture with the person sitting in front of us, we just can't do it. 00:16:58.078 --> 00:17:27.179 I think that's one of the big things today is we devalue disagreements, because disagreements create diversity, there, we have never reached a moment of concession, when we all agree with you know, when we come together with our disagreements, each having our own platform, each having our own thing that we need to accomplish, that's when we get something greater. It's when we come together through disagreements. So talk about I want you to hear I want to hear your opinion on just the value of diversity in disagreements. 00:17:27.269 --> 00:17:28.558 Is that good? Do you get that question? 00:17:28.589 --> 00:18:03.119 Oh, I get that question. I love that question. You know, I think after a while, when we are just with people that look like us think like us speak like us, same educational, all that stuff. After a while, it really is boring. In some ways, we may think it's safe. Because it's like, we feel like we can control it, we know what to expect. But know if I'm going to be living in the world. And seeing where God's Kingdom is going for God's Kingdom does not look like my limited world, God's Kingdom is much greater. 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:13.559 And there gonna be people there that right now, I'm just disagreeing with and believe me many times think, oh, one day, I'm gonna be around that wedding feast table and heaven. And all this stuff isn't gonna matter. 00:18:13.890 --> 00:19:01.140 It just isn't. But I need those voices, I need people who have a different background in me different experience. Because, no, because that helps me understand my world. That How did my world end up being what it is? I need to hear what this friend is saying to me? And you know, and it takes work. But man, it's just, Oh, I haven't thought about that. Tell me more. You know, when I think about when I just think about you, you know, friends that I love who are African American, who are just looking at the world differently? How much has that enrich me to understand what's going on, because their experience has been so different than mine. I need to know that. 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:09.569 Because that is showing me how God is moving in the world. And I want that's where I want to be I wouldn't be where God's already moving. And he's not just in my own little world. 00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:11.819 He's in all kinds of different places. 00:19:12.329 --> 00:19:29.609 How do we add? How do we have those hard conversations when we know a friend or family member has not had the same experiences that we have that maybe they're coming from a place of poor logic, or just lack of experience? How do we handle those kind of conversations? 00:19:24.569 --> 00:19:45.240 It's a hard one. It's a hard line. I think a lot of times it's like, sometimes it really is what's the point in having the conversation? I mean, just realistically, it's like, what will bring any growth from going into that kind of conversation? 00:19:45.630 --> 00:19:49.769 You know, my job is not to help someone think correctly. 00:19:50.369 --> 00:20:19.049 According to way I think that's not my job. You know, that's not what I'm about with somebody. My interest has always been much more what's going on in their soul. You know that just a reflection, you know, and oftentimes that they're disagreeing with, or we think the logic is wrong, when we're thinking beneath what's going on what's going on there. I mean, particularly the last, you know, 20 months, have we ever known more anxiety? More fear, then? 00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:41.250 And that's not, that's everybody. I mean, we're just in that unique period where everybody's in the same place, in terms of having experienced stuff that they never did before. I just think a lot of times, it's just like, I, I'm not gonna correct that there's just kind of, is that what I really want to be able to identify in the relationship? 00:20:37.349 --> 00:21:12.900 Was that Oh, I got him to think clearly on that. You know, because, you know, how do we know whether it's exactly clear, anyway? But was I did I listen, you know, did I dress and try to understand, fee fear? That's why I want to connect with somebody on their fear. Not so much on whatever crazy thing I think they might be thinking, yeah, that's not gonna change it. And the heart issue is the fear and anxiety. And that's where I want to connect with him. 00:21:13.349 --> 00:21:34.380 Your answer brought up two questions in my mind. The first one is, how do we, you know, you kind of talked about, is it even worth stepping into this conversation? How do we know when we step we need to step into a conversation. I mean, we can be sitting at a big family dinner, and several, several members are having a conversation, and we just really disagree with what they're saying. And Phil, they're out of line? How do we know when to step down? 00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:57.569 Again, I think it's that that self check that we have to do with ourselves and say, you know, what is the value added in doing that? You know, is it going to be just adding fuel to the fire? You know, do I want to waste this moment where I, again, I want that connection with family members. I mean, I know specifically family members that I totally disagree with. 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:47.849 But you know what? I don't, that's not where I'm going to be meeting them on the area. So sometimes it's like, I mean, you can just kind of be fine people, I can, because if we're secure in who we are, you know, if we if we have experienced, you know, that Jesus sees us, Jesus sees us that we're safe and secure in who we are in Christ, then we can we can bring the light, the joy, the love into the situation that somebody else doesn't have. So there, that's not gonna be part of the conversation. As Christ followers, that's what we're bringing, we're bringing in peace, we're bringing in light, we're bringing in love, we're bringing in joy. So yeah, it's like, you know, what a great season two be talking about football, let's change the conversation, you know, who's going to be hired for that coach that was just fired, you know? 00:22:48.539 --> 00:23:35.609 But, but, but we we really have to watch ourselves what our motivation is. Yeah. And, you know, is it to have a win? No, my, my motivation is I want to stay connected. And I have good relationship with family members, that we know, we are, you know, 180 degrees apart. But what difference does it make? I mean, really, ultimately, what difference does that make? But know, if we have a history together as family and legacy that we want to pass on? We want to be passing on to our children, that when we were together with family, it was volatile, that it was it was scary, it was dangerous, emotionally to be there? No, no, no, we're going to be Hey, we are around the table together. 00:23:32.130 --> 00:24:08.670 We were in that conversation together. That I mean, you know, we all probably have situations where we have bad memories of holidays or something. Because, you know, somebody said something that somebody took off in that direction, then it was all over. That isn't who we want to be. I'm really trying to think that there are some things that are really worth I use this phrase to somebody say, Are there really that many things in our culture, topics, politics? I fall on the sword for Do you know what I mean? 00:24:08.700 --> 00:25:17.190 Let me tell you where that question comes from. So I remember, it was 2019, I believe I was sitting in on a it was a roundtable discussion about just race relations and where our country is. And somebody asked the question to the table, they said, you know, how do I know when to step into a conversation of we're discussing race? And it was they the the lady just said, you know, if they're being extremely vulgar, if they're coming out, you know, that's where you have to stand up and tell him what's right. You know, and that's what I think about, like, going back to what you were saying as well as they have a story to they have a reason as to why they think that it may just be poor education. It may be from a place of they've been burned in a way. I mean, there's any kind of excuses not that all are excusable. So I think that's where I'm from. Yeah, question from Yeah, okay. I get that. Yeah, again, I think He now I think there's a way to turn the conversation where, where you bring your heart into it, your perspective into it. You know, it's really hard for me to hear you talk that way, because that hasn't been my experience. And what you're saying is like that. 00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:53.640 That is, that's a, you know, that is very harsh. And that's not always true. But I think that if we honestly, you know, that's really hard for me to hear, because that isn't what my experience has been that, that we own our emotions in it. But no, no, I'm with you on that, that, you know, if they are really kind of going in that he say, I need you not to? I think we can say, I need you not to say that. Because that just is that's really harsh. You know, we can do that with fellow believers. It's harder when people aren't buying on, though. 00:25:53.670 --> 00:26:11.609 I don't think that should stop us wanting to go on the other end of that. When is the when is it time to walk away from the conversation when we see that there's no longer value being added? When When do we know it's time to walk away? Because I mean, like we've said, that's the relationship? You know, are we walking away from the relationship by doing that? 00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:33.869 Again, I think we need to be aware of how we do that internally, like I can I could be walking away from you right now. You know, as we're talking, you know, I think that, you know, what is the cost? You know, are any of these conversations, political conversation, are they worth destroying a relationship? 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:42.000 They're just not. And again, I think that that's where we can be able just to be be guiding it, you're going to know, I mean, I think that there's like a, well, when they say this, that means it's the end of that. 00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:49.980 But if there's anything that is not honoring to God, that is not true. That is that is destructive to somebody else. 00:26:51.359 --> 00:27:21.569 That's when we just say, you know, what, this is where we are. And we just have to agree to disagree, because I, because I want to be my connection with you is more important to me, the one of us being right, you know, let me let me ask you this. I've had conversations where ended with let's just disagree or agree to disagree? Do we actually mean that when we say that, cuz I mean, I still I think about that, when I talk to those people? I think, you know, they said this, and I really disagree with them. I hold on to that. Is that a true statement? 00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:27.990 Well, it depends on you'd have to answer that one. I mean, yeah, it is. 00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:32.490 It's a it's a phrase that ends a conversation. Is it just a cop out at the end of the day? 00:27:33.990 --> 00:27:50.549 It again, it depends, it could be a cop out. But now I think in some ways, it can be communicated, honestly, you know, I value who you are. I disagree with you. But I value you more than the disagreement. 00:27:46.529 --> 00:29:29.430 You know. So yeah, so we're just going to agree that we're in different places with this, but I value you more, I value our relationship more. So thank you for what you did say, I want to think about that. Because, you know, we're all always able to bring new things, new perspectives. But, but I know what you're saying, we say, well, that, well, we just have to agree, that basically means Be quiet, be quiet, and it can be just a cut off? Or is there a way to be communicating that within the context of maintaining a relationship, I think that's what we always have to be communicating. Whatever you've said, Whatever you believe, does not mean that I am just throwing you away, we don't want to be thrown away. So whoever we're talking with, they need to know we are there's, there's you know, there's nothing that could say that we're going to just throw them away. That you know, you know, relationships are always, you know, dynamic, they're always changing. You know, our culture changes all the time, you know, politics are changing all the time, our perspectives, you know, we have certain perspectives, but the context is often what we're talking about that, you know, we get caught up in the context of the of the topic rather than the, you know, the the foundation of it, but I think that foundation of it for me is just always what can I do to keep this relationship intact? You know, as my brother and sister or Christ as a family member. Can I walk away with that person, not so much that I've heard but that's that person feel that I heard them that I saw them. Then I listened. 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:45.210 I want to go back to something you said earlier about, you know, when we do step into a conversation and we are we are correct. There is no bones about it. We are correct. How do we not gloat in that? How do we not feel too much pride in setting someone straight? 00:29:47.519 --> 00:30:50.880 I feel like you're revealing more of who you are. Hey, I'm gonna win. Keanu, we're always walking into these things humbly. You know Yeah, that's what we're doing. We're just saying, you know, it's it's not a battle. You know, it's a person, you know, that I'm trying to maintain this relationship with. But you know, we are all prideful people. It is part of our nature of who we are. At this point, this side of heaven, as we say that often times it's, it's hard for either of us to say, to move. So oh, okay, I get that. I'm thinking conversation I have with my husband last night. I cut him off, but but I did from the standpoint where he pointed out something to me. And he was right. And really was like, oh, and I didn't need to talk about it anymore. I'm like, I get it. 00:30:51.059 --> 00:30:54.329 And he wanted to keep going. No, no, no, I heard you. I get it. 00:30:54.900 --> 00:31:02.130 You know, but it's like, we need to be able to know. Okay, you know, and he could have said, Oh, well, yeah, I wonder over? 00:31:02.250 --> 00:31:51.150 Well, no, you presented a fact to me that didn't know before, you know, and I was willing to hear you. But yeah, it's hard to I'm not sure if he walked away gloating. But you know, I think that he did say, okay, she just didn't see that I showed her this. And I was willing to learn. I was gonna say, Oh, okay. That's it. So but I think it has to be two ways. I think if we are walking away saying that, man, man, I made a great point, then we're really not in a good place, you know, that we're just like, okay. Yeah, I did make some good points. But so did they, they from the standpoint, even if we disagree with the context of what they're saying, they made a point and to me understanding who they are. 00:31:45.569 --> 00:31:53.009 And I can love someone a whole lot better if I understand who they are. 00:31:54.690 --> 00:34:11.429 I think about you know, in disagreements, we're failing to remember that these are also children of God, that these are, every single one of us is made in God's image, regardless of our faith, regardless of where we are in life. We're all in that place. And I think we're failing to remember that when we disagree, can you talk about that? Oh, yeah, we always need to be reminding ourselves that we are in conversation with someone who is an image bearer of God, that someone that Jesus came for. We have lost that understanding that yeah, these are image bearers. And all that means that you know, that they are people who Jesus died for who is in their life in ways that we may not understand. And so that's, I think that's true, even with believers and non believers that God is always involved in, in each of our lives, whether we're following him or not. And to be to be curious enough to say, Okay, what could God be dealing with this person right now. But that's where we really are respecting each other and, and really moving in moving towards them, as we need to remember how God moves towards us, you know, and he moves towards us with patience and kindness, mercy, goodness, love, patience. So why would I not do that with somebody else? Yeah. So I think that if we're remembering those things, then then we can, you know, like, run up to the edge, but we don't step over the edge because we realize, Okay, I've almost stepped over the edge, but I'm not going to, you know, get out. I found this. I love this. This is a great translation of First Corinthians 13. It talks about how we engage with each other. And First Corinthians 13. Unfortunately, I think we just kind of say, we only wait to hear it at a wedding ceremony, and then even then a wedding ceremony. We go, oh, isn't that nice? That couple weeks, I'll wait to wait till they find out what it's really like. But we need to remember that that first Corinthians It was written to a body of believers, telling them what's expected of them that love is the driving force, that nothing else matters other than expressing love. Let me read this translation. I was reading it this morning. I thought, oh my gosh, this is so good. 00:34:07.349 --> 00:34:16.619 Beginning with verse four, First Corinthians 13 For love is large, and incredibly patient. 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:27.510 Love is gentle, and consistently kind to all. Love does not brag about one's achievements nor inflate its own importance. 00:34:27.510 --> 00:34:48.480 That's a good one. Love does not traffic and shame and disrespect nor selfish selfishly seek its own honor. Love is not easily irritated or quick to take offence. Love is a safe place of shelter for it never stops believing the best for others. 00:34:49.289 --> 00:34:52.949 Love never takes failures to feed for it never gives up. 00:34:53.760 --> 00:35:56.099 There's so many just great phrases in there. You know, love is not easily irritated. Isn't that what we're the culture of irritation or Now that easily irritated or quick to take offense? Lance, I can't believe you, how could you think I would think that way we just, we take offense so quickly, but love is a place of shelter? And isn't that what I want to be doing with my presence, you know, in a one on one conversation, you know, around a table and some kind of group meeting, you know, I want to be a safe place. And I can be because the Holy Spirit of me, the love is just moving through me. But that, but that's what you're talking about. But that is moving towards someone who's a child of God, if I'm if I'm a child of God, this is what I'm doing. I remember that love is large love is larger than any of these conversations that we're having. It covers a multitude of sins. You know, Paul was very quick on that. But we need to remember that, you know, yes, we, these conversations can be legitimate, they can be an irritation. But love is bigger than all of those things. 00:35:56.909 --> 00:36:08.909 That's that's a good segue into a question I had is, you know, what happens when the conversation goes sour? And that relationship has maybe deteriorated because of the conversation? How do we reconcile that relationship? 00:36:09.869 --> 00:37:00.690 Oh, you know, we are so slow to ask forgiveness, aren't we? You know, I want to ask forgiveness, if I have offended you in any way. Now that you're saying that it's like, I'm not asking forgiveness, if you know, I said something wrong, but it's like I offended you didn't attack, or saying, but that's what it is always. It's the person, not the topic. But you know, we, you know, we are the ones that need to take the lead on asking forgiveness. Now, I will say always, I did this with my kids when they were growing up. I wouldn't say if they did something to each other, or to, you know, one of us, they never just said I'm sorry, because that that's a quick throwaway line. But forgiveness involves more of who I am, that I'm in. 00:37:00.690 --> 00:37:29.369 So even if I'm saying that I think that communicates my commitment that I'm not turning on my heels are walking away, that I'm moving towards you with love. Because I want reconciliation. So will you forgive me? Now, what their response is, isn't your responsibility, but that catches people like oh, you know, she's not saying she's, she's right or wrong, or the I Am, but that she wants that that relationship connection? Will you forgive me? 00:37:30.570 --> 00:37:46.619 Go into things a little kind of changing gears just a little bit. But as a Christian, what is our place as a mediator? What if we're at that family dinner again, and to our uncle and our grandfather are going at it? And we're just sitting there trying to eat our turkey and cornbread? 00:37:43.530 --> 00:37:48.329 What's our place to step in? Or is our place to even step in there? 00:37:50.579 --> 00:38:17.760 He now it's hard to talk about specifics. Yeah, again, I'm just thinking of situations, how do we move towards each other with love, but I don't I don't know what that could look like in a particular situation. If you're in between, you know, these two men who are going at it, I mean, there's just got to be a way of kind of bringing it back home to where we are, you know, there will be a lot of wasted dinner table conversations this season. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:59.159 A lot. And as Christ followers, we don't want to be a part of those, we want to be the ones that, you know, how did Jesus handle those things? You know, Jesus was always at the table with people. You know, Jesus was somehow he would address the concerns and move on, you know, to the person. I don't know, that's where you're just kind of being clever. You're, you know, you're an IT can be obvious. I mean, I would say, yeah, be obvious and what you're doing, don't be subtle. Say, Hey, you know, you know, are the lions even gonna win that football game today? Probably not. Why not it but and people would know. And, you know, sometimes if, if they're just kind of that way, and they won't let up. 00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:22.079 There's not a whole lot you can do. You're not responsible for them. You're responsible for you. You know, and so I think that's what you're doing that you're just you know, what's at stake, there is really a lot, you know, around a table. I'm thinking of an intergenerational table. kids watching kids are watching really closely right now as to how adults have responded these last 20 months. 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:35.519 But but that's what we do with like, our responsibility is to somehow still move in love without dismissing them. Yeah, can make a situation like that where people would feel dismissed. I've been shut down. 00:39:32.130 --> 00:39:38.699 Now. Hey, hey, well, we could talk about this after Hey, after pumpkin pie, let's go do this. 00:39:39.059 --> 00:40:18.000 You know? I can people again, what is going on there fear anxiety. You know, that may not be part of our world at all that we're thinking about that. We don't think that way. But they do. So how do you kind of just connect with them? I mean, there's not a perfect sentence for that, but that's what you're thinking about. Okay, what's really going on here? You know, you know where, you know, there's so much history that goes on around the table, that some things we know about some things we don't. But in that moment, what are we doing? We're gathering together. And we're being we're seeking that connection. 00:40:18.389 --> 00:40:22.500 And I think about no one likes confrontation. It's never fun. 00:40:22.530 --> 00:40:37.320 Some people are better at it than others. But it's like we've been saying this is a relationship. This is hard conversations to get us to grow in our relationships. So what's your encouragement to people to not avoid having these conversations when they come up? 00:40:38.489 --> 00:40:57.000 That's a That's a great question. I think you keep short accounts on those conversations, you just keep them short. You know, I'm good. I you and I don't see things the same way. I want to hear that a little bit. 00:40:51.449 --> 00:42:01.199 But I think we need to recognize, I mean, we all know that nobody runs head first into conflict. But when we reframe conflict as something that will, in fact, be our point of growth, that can lead to something deeper and more life giving, then I think that we don't have to shy away from it. But I can't We can't be ones that are going in for the win. We just, that's not what we're aiming for. We're aiming for the, for the heart and the heart connection with the person that were in conflict with, you know, I'm just I'm thinking of situations like that, where, okay, let's deal with this. You know, and but then being able to walk away, I mean, just as whole people, you know, it's like, okay. I mean, you know, yourself in your marriage, that's what you're doing all the time. I mean, you know, my marriage, relationship with my kids, we're always compromising, you know, we we are all broken, wounded people. 00:41:56.730 --> 00:42:18.539 And we need to recognize that and the other person that, you know, it's okay, that we disagree. You know, that the goal is not to agree, necessarily, you know, it's like, the goal is to love and to care and to treat the other as the image bearer of God that they are. And to love large. 00:42:20.010 --> 00:43:07.469 Well, Jackie, unless you have anything else to add, I think that is a perfect place to end this conversation. Because I think that's ultimately the goal of it is to show respect, love, and then admin in the conversation, knowing that their relationship is still intact and growing. So unless you have anything to add, I think this is a good place to end. Yeah, I think this is this has been fun to kind of get me stirred up a little bit situations I'm thinking about, but you know, it is I just want always be thinking beneath, beneath what you're seeing what you're seeing is not the whole story. It's not the whole picture. You know, and God loves us. He knows all our insights. He knows everything about us, and he still loves us and He pursues us. And that's who we want to be as people who love Jesus, that you know, we want to love like Jesus. That's what we want to do. Thanks. 00:43:04.889 --> 00:43:07.469 Well, thank you, Jackie.