Unknown: We are here with the Reverend Jackie Gatlin to discuss what is hope in the holidays. This is not just for those that are grieving, but it's also for those that who love someone who is grieving. So Jackie, something I want to start straight from the beginning is, is it okay to feel the burden of grief during the holidays?
Unknown: Lance, it's good to be with you.
Unknown: Now, I always enjoy these conversations that we have. It is it is a season where we are conflicted with so many emotions and expectations. And one of them is that we would just be moving through with with joy and just, oh, everything's wonderful. And aren't the lights glorious, and the music just so meaningful, but yet, the undercurrent for many of us probably all of us in some way, have a have something that is tugging at us. That is not putting us where we want to be, whether it's whether it's grief from a death, we've experienced, whether it's just a broken relationship, whether it's loss of a job, whether it's disappointment. You know, I think that the season does highlight both if there's the hope, that that we have before us, as Christ followers, but there's the reality of where we live. And so where do we see that intersection where those two things can come together?
Unknown: Something that I think about is this, the Advent season, this time late in the year is often called the most wonderful time of the year. In many situations, even if you're not experiencing grief, that's simply just not the case for many people, you turn on the news, and you will see that it is not, in fact, the most wonderful time of the year.
Unknown: Can you elaborate on that, that for some reason, we think it's the most wonderful time of the year. And in so many ways it is it truly is where we are remembering and anticipating the birth of Jesus and His coming again. But the pressure that we put on ourselves and each other that the culture puts on was that it's the most wonderful time of the year that that that adds an unnecessary pressure.
Unknown: Yesterday, I was looking for little 10s to put like some baked goods that my husband I want to do for the holidays. And it's curious that the only one that was left that we could buy was had on the front of it said it's the most wonderful time of the year. And I chose not to buy it. Both of those curious people haven't been buying that one.
Unknown: Because I think that that for someone to receive some of those things that go well know, for me, it's not the most wonderful time of the year. And so there has to be this reality where we're speaking about, this is where I am right now. And yes, this is going on around me joy and movement and activity. But but but my soul is a little stuck over here and just is just living in grief right now.
Unknown: Before we started rolling, you were telling me a story about when you first experience and understood what grief in the holidays was. Can you tell that story again? For me, please? Oh, yeah, I think this is where I think we're God just put the tug on my heart about grief. And for people. I remember, I was about eight years old. And we had spent Christmas day at my grandmother's and we were driving home. I remember I was in the backseat of the car with my sister. And we were just tired. And we're just we were listening to the radio and, and the news came on. And the story was that a family with young children had all been killed in a car wreck that morning. And so part of me just went well, no, that's not possible. How can something that horrible happen on Christmas Day? It just it didn't make sense. And I remember just being my bed at night just going I don't understand this like, and then I just felt the sorrow I felt the sorrow of there. I was thinking about those kids and their friends at school. And, you know, it just didn't make sense to my eight year old little heart right then. But I just knew something's not right about that. But I just remember going Oh, my goodness, we had such a perfect day, but somebody didn't.
Unknown: How did you handle that grief?
Unknown: As an eight year old? Did you talk to your parents about it?
Unknown: Did you just let it sit? What did you do about that?
Unknown: Oh, no, you're not talking to your parents so much about that?
Unknown: Because, first of all, you don't have the words for it when you're eight years old. But I think that probably the Holy Spirit began working on me then just making me aware of things.
Unknown: You know, I think that that was part of it. Just as as Jesus was entering my life and call me to himself that he was letting me know that he is he is there. I mean, even now when we're sitting here lands, I can say okay, if I can even imagine that scene. I could now say even though that was decades ago, that Jesus was present when that happened for that family. I wouldn't have understood that when I was eight years old. But that's all part of our journey of how we understand how Jesus moves into our life that he's present. You know, in our Advent worship services, you know, the songs that we sing, and he's present with us during the session. same time with those who are in the hospital, those who are anticipating death, those who are grieving a death.
Unknown: So all that happened. So I think that was just part of it just how God shapes us. But I just remember being so weird that that day, I just thought, oh, no, no, no, that can't happen, but knowing that it did.
Unknown: So how do we reckon with that grief during the holiday season?
Unknown: Well, I think as Christ followers, we do have, we do have a path forward in that, and that is that we get to lean into the Jesus that meets us there that understood grief. Well, that came, he was a man of sorrows. He, you know, sometimes just think that Jesus really did just come for the Grievers because we do have so much to grieve. But he came to show us that this is not the end of the story. And so I think the way we reconcile is that we go, yet this isn't this isn't the final say that there is something more and that is what we that's what we lean into. And so that's where I say, this is the opportunity to welcome Jesus in in a brand new way, say an unbroken, I'm grieving. I'm so sad. Jesus, are you here? You know, and I was thinking recently I was talking to somebody just said, you know, that, that even even just making the statement, Jesus, are you here is a statement of faith.
Unknown: Because we believe that he is, so we're asking, asking for him to be present. If we didn't believe that he could be there, we wouldn't even ask it. So it's just really, it's really a beautiful prayer to say, Jesus, are you here? And it's just a way for? Keep it simple. Jesus, I'm broken right now. I'm sad, are you here?
Unknown: So something I often think about is people saying, you know, during the season, they, they may want to stay at home, they may want to do something else.
Unknown: And, you know, they may say, it's just too hard for me to experience this during the season. You know, they're afraid that they might cry in the service. Is that really a bad thing?
Unknown: Yeah, no, no, I think he now I understand why people don't want to go, it's like, they're, they're afraid that they're going to that they'll have just that there'll be teary like, Oh, my goodness, what's wrong with that? I almost think it'd be awkward if you weren't teary in some of the settings. But I think that you also have to be wise where you go with is going to be the safe place for you to be able to do that. Who are the people that it's going to be safe to do that with? I would hope that any kind of church service that you're coming to during the month of December is going to be a place where everybody's kind of feeling tear, you know that there's something going on for people when they are hearing those songs, there's memories that are going on, I was reading something recently, it just said that when we decorate a Christmas tree, we're not just decorating the tree every time you put an ornament on, there's a memory that's being recalled as that ornament goes on, you know that you're going back to oh, oh, yeah, my dad, my dad likes to do the tree this way.
Unknown: And my dad did silly trees. But you know, you just you're just thinking about those things that just come up, that if we begin to see that those are things that are just truly gifts from God, just wonderful gifts of tenderness. You know, that's when we can receive them, and not avoid them. You know, that those are memories of God's presence with us that I think lancets I, the older I get, the more I understand now that Jesus really was present back then, you know, as a saint, the other story, but yeah, you have to be wise where you're going to go?
Unknown: It's how do you set up those healthy boundaries to know where you can participate and where you cannot participate?
Unknown: Well, you know, I think one of the hard things when I'm talking to people or grieving is that we really do, they have to take responsibility for their boundaries. And when you're already feeling beaten down and weary, to then to draw boundaries. Just sounds like oh, no, and something else I have to do in my grave. But now it's really an opportunity where you get to say, okay, I can do this, but I'm not going to do this.
Unknown: And most people will say that they get it, you know, and if they're pushing you on it, then they're cutting those particular people, you need to be around anyway. But, but no, we have to develop those those boundaries.
Unknown: Because even just in our normal times, we can say our boundaries, but often we break them, but we need to be able to determine what's going to work for us and what's not, you know, I'll go to this party, but not that one, you know, the sending Christmas cards sound overwhelming, then just don't do it. I mean, it's the it's the year that you get to not do, or it's also a year where you can add where you can do things differently, you know, sending Christmas cards, it could be a tender moment for you as you're just writing the names of family and friends on the envelope. But you know, it's your choice. You know, sometimes people will tell me they're going to send Christmas cards and they are telling people maybe from a distance, who may not have heard about the death you've experienced? Well, part of me says you need to shake But your Christmas card list, you know, if they don't know, then why send them a Christmas card? But you know, if it's too much to attend a Christmas Eve service, then, you know, are there other things that can be done that will bring you into that moment of what a Christmas Eve service does. But we need to take the pressure off ourselves off of our friends and family just trying to make the holidays be like they were last year. Yeah, that just isn't going to work.
Unknown: If you just realize no, it's gonna be different than then you're just able to let it go.
Unknown: When when I'm always having conversations with people. And this is what they tell me that you need to just have a plan.
Unknown: Like what like, I'll say, hey, what, what's your plan? I don't say what? I never say What are you doing for the holidays?
Unknown: That's a little more pressure.
Unknown: But like, what's your plan for the day and for the season? And then they'll talk about it. And you know, and then I gotta tell you, I just there was some people that were that I was with, who were just so worried about Thanksgiving? And how were they going to navigate Thanksgiving with this first year of loss of a family member?
Unknown: And I gotta tell you, when I saw him a few days later, and they were just like, you know, it was a good day. And, and when I'm always telling people in because I hear it over and over. And I've experienced in my own life, that the anticipation is always much worse than the reality of it. You know, they go, Okay, we have a plan. And it was a good one. And you know, and they did it, and they woke up the next day. And, you know, but things were good. That was okay.
Unknown: Again, before we started recording, you were telling me a story about a Christmas Eve that was quite memorable. Do you mind telling that story for us now?
Unknown: Yeah, number of years ago, when I was working as a hospice chaplain, I had a patient that had been with for a very long time. And then she died. And she died Christmas week. And she was very well known in the town we were living in, in Michigan. And so we knew it was going to be a big service. And so we really couldn't, her husband really couldn't figure out when to have the service. Well, it really turned out hard to believe, but that the that the best time and where most people could attend was Christmas Eve at 1pm in the afternoon. And I was gonna be leading that service. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, what am I going to say? And then it really was the nudge from the Holy Spirit, you're going to say, you're going to proclaim the baby Jesus and why he came that he came for, for times, such as this is why he was born. And I just remember that moment, you know, it was a hundreds of people, a couple 100 people were in this jammed into the stream on home standing room only some dressed to go to their Christmas Eve service like following this.
Unknown: But I just remember the look on their faces of were like, kind of like, Okay, how are you going to make sense of this, you know, it's almost like a little challenge. But it was the sense of fear and hope and all of them. And I just remember talking about that it was proclaiming the gospel of this baby Jesus came for these moments for this is the baby that was going to grow up, that was gonna be the man that was going to weep by the tomb of his friend Lazarus, that Jesus wept.
Unknown: And that was the hope that we have that Jesus is the one that weeps with us. Even though he knows the end of the story, because he made the end of the story. He weeps with us when we are in our grief.
Unknown: When you tell that story, it makes me think about just what an arc of an afternoon that would be for people to start with a funeral to be to follow that with a service of celebration for the coming of our King. You know, it makes me think about my wife has a tattoo on her arm, that's, it's a mountain that slides down into a valley and at the bottom of that valley sits across, you know, I just think so much of this holiday season is being reminded that it's not just a baby doll in a manger. It's pointing people to the cross, you know, so when I think of the Sanctuary here at Christ Church, I mean, we that cross is hanging from the ceiling, and you can't get around it, and you're not supposed to get around it. And so whenever we come in, whether it's July, whether it's October, whether it's Christmas Eve, the memory and we have to be responding to who Jesus was that he was the man that came and lived his life and for the sake of our sins, yours and mine lands, he hung on the cross, and we are reminded of that. So even, I mean, our sanctuary looks so beautiful. Now with all the points that we just it's Christmas, it's, you know, the purple, you had all the liturgy there, just everything's going on and above it all still hovers across. And that just has to be where we go through particularly as those of us who who know Jesus and want to know him more, that that that memory, that reality of that that has to hover over everything that we're doing something beautiful that you said a sermon a couple of weeks ago and we'll put that in the show notes for you to listen to.
Unknown: Was you talked about you referenced John one to tell the distort the birth story. But that also references back to Genesis one that tells the creation story. One of the things that I find beautiful about that story is one of the very first things God does was he creates the light to illuminate the darkness. It is such presiding theme throughout the Bible, and especially to this holiday season, I think about that story and how it relates to the birth story of what inspiration and hope it gives us.
Unknown: What I love about scripture to Lance, I mean, we know how realistic it is that it just, it gives us words to understand our own experience. So you got, we go from Genesis one. And then we move to hundreds of years later to Isaiah. You know that that Isaiah chapter nine, where before we hear you know, where he's given the prophecy that the Messiah is coming to be the wonderful counselor, you know, the Prince of Peace. But before that, he's saying why that needs to happen is because the people who've walked in, I love the translation I use, people who've walked in deep darkness have seen a great light. And so when I think about that, yeah, there was deep darkness that Jesus came for. And out of that comes the light, that we are able to say that we follow that light, and we move through our deep darkness towards him. It's just it's just a powerful thing. If there wasn't the darkness, there would be no reason for Jesus to come. And so but the reality that we have been those people and and we will be those people again, you know, there will be something happening in my life in your life, Lance, that will be, we will say I am in the darkness. But when we understand the deep darkness that we're in, then we understand and are drawn to the light and do everything we can to move towards it.
Unknown: That's I have a family member who had his his best friend passed away during the holiday season, more than a decade ago.
Unknown: And every Christmas, there's a dark cloud over him. He definitely he reclusive a little bit. He's more sad. He's quieter. It's something that he hasn't dealt with. How do we handle that grief so that we can have hope in the holidays?
Unknown: Yeah, that long term grief kind of thing? You know, I think that that situation is one where, you know, it's okay to be reminded that this is the month that my friend died. You know, it's what we do with it, you know? Do we just stay in that place? Or do we? Or do those memories become sweet and tender? My my best friend in the world, my soul friend Gretchen died on almost 20 years ago, on October 23. And I find myself every year kind of kind of approaching his insecurities thing. I'll be approaching the day, or that time and think, oh, yeah, I'll remember what was going on, then. You know, but then actually, kind of the day will come? And I don't remember it until I realized them out of sorts. Why am I short tempered today? Why am I not connecting?
Unknown: What is going on in me? And the Holy Spirit really does nudge me says, hey, it's a memory. This is the day she died. This is the day you were sitting in that chair in the living room when you got the call that she had died. And then where I go with, Oh, yeah. But then where, where I'm now able to go to I see what God has done in her life and her family's life since that time.
Unknown: But But I think it's wrong to think that we shouldn't remember those. But I think that if we're just kind of in that place that we that we do. I never use the language. We don't get over our grief. We don't you know, but but we move forward in it. And so that's what I want believers to be able to do for one another. How do we move forward in that grief? not denying that, that that sadness and that grief, but where are we going to move forward in it?
Unknown: You said earlier about how grief is something we're all going to experience? There's no way around it? What are some steps?
Unknown: What are some things we can do to get to a place where we can we can have those happy memories and we can sit in that grief and be okay with it.
Unknown: You know, Lance? I mean, it's almost gonna sound like the, like the children's sermon answer. We need to know Jesus.
Unknown: And we need to know who Jesus is, and in our lives and our world, what he's doing in the world, that we're leaning into him. I mean, that's where our energy goes. And then if we understand Jesus, and we get even a bigger picture of who he is, and we draw close to Him, then the other experiences of my life and yours make sense? Like, you know, it's like we don't understand what was going on there may not have an answer to it. I mean, the older I get, the more questions I have, that there's that mystery that that's there, but in the light of Jesus that we're talking about that light that shining into that darkness, then those things begin to make sense. But if we if we choose to just sit in the darkness then you know that gets kind of it gets old that gets scary that gets very weary some but if we crack the door open Then take much light. It just doesn't, you know, then a little bit light makes us curious for more light and more light, more light. That's that's where we're able to go. That's always the invitation. But Jesus said, Hey, I'm standing at the door, I'm going to crack it open. Come on in, walk through that door with me.
Unknown: It can be difficult to address our emotions. How do we talk about these things when we're grieving?
Unknown: How do we talk about? Well, I think first of all, that you're figuring out a way to like, let God know about them. But then again, I said before, it's like you're finding those people that will be with you in it. Yeah.
Unknown: And we got to be careful, like, who are the people that will understand? You know, when those memories come up unexpectedly, or when I'm just kind of having, but I'm having a moment, and how we move through them. You know, my Lance, let me tell you a story. So like, these memories pop up. Just so unexpectedly, one time, my husband Mike and I were walking through, I think it was probably it was one of the department stores. And it was it was Christmas time. And two things happen. We were walking through the cosmetics section to get to somewhere else. And there was the music playing overhead.
Unknown: I think it was it was a it was a Christmas carol that's important to him. So there he was, I think he was talking about that all of a sudden, he stopped. And that was kind of walking ahead of him. An attorney wasn't behind wasn't beside me. I said, What are you doing? And he's he said, he smelled. They said, It's my mother. And so it was like the sensory thing going on for him.
Unknown: He was hearing this Christmas Carol. But then it was the set.
Unknown: And Lance, this is no jab at you. But men typically don't know the colognes that their mothers were. So he and he couldn't figure it out which one it was, but you know, I mean, but at the same time, his mother died maybe about 10 years before. And like, hey, we were talking about Christmas shopping. And all of a sudden we're talking about the cologne that his mother wore. And it was just a sweet moment. Do you know but But it caught his attention, and probably focused in a little bit away. We like Oh, yeah. Yes, she did wear? Yeah. But how do you how do you handle that? How do you want to avoid making them go more deep, deeply into that, that that fear and those that heartache? Or do you want to address it head on?
Unknown: It's that it's some three words, tell me more? Be curious, find out more about it. Because you know, and do not really, really do not do this do not be quick to just slap words on it, your words aren't going to particularly fix it. I mean, this is what people will tell us all the time that you know, often say, say to grieving people, what's the most ridiculous thing anyone has said to you? And it's always the things, it's always it pretty much is well meaning things.
Unknown: It's like, you know, well, he's in a better place or she's in a better place. You know? Well, yeah, but he's not here. You know, and I'd really rather have him here right now. But now I think it's it's really an opportunity for a relationship to go into, into just a different space yet. Tell me more about that. But what other memories do you have? And it's okay, because that's what we really know is that you know what, what Grievers need, they need to be able to find words for their grief. And, you know, Lance, I know you don't have words for grief, I, you know, I don't like we have to help each other, you know, find the words for their grief and, and to be able to say the words out loud, we don't shut people down, you know, when they need to talk about the person or their grief.
Unknown: And like I said, not just slapped something. Neither a Bible verse or just, you know, what we think is, oh, this is my favorite. Well, not really my favorite, but Oh, God needed another angel in heaven, guess what Lance you and I will never be angels. That's not how it works, we will not be angels.
Unknown: And so just those things that just really are not helpful. But then the person just needs to know that they've been heard.
Unknown: That their that their heart longing in that moment has been heard. And you know, I think you put those things together, and then someone goes, Okay, here's someone who gets me who understands. I'm going to be okay. I'm going to be okay.
Unknown: For someone who's caring for a loved one that's experiencing grief. Should they be afraid to open those wounds and ask them about that grief?
Unknown: No, always ask them. Or, you know, that kind of thing. You could say to somebody who maybe has recently lost somebody. You know, I know you have needs right now, you probably don't know what they are. I think we enter in and just we just come alongside say, Whatever you need, I'm here. We will do it.
Unknown: You don't want to go to that service. We won't go Do you want to go that service will go. You know, I always say I'm saying this to a group recently. You never say let me know if there's anything I can do. Oh my goodness, that puts the burden on the person who's grieving.
Unknown: Now now is kind of an opportunity to say hey, let's go drive out and just take a look at the Christmas lights. I'll pick you up. How's that sound?
Unknown: because people at their new increase, they they're not thinking about that they're not thinking about getting the car, they're not going to go do that.
Unknown: But just anything like that, hey, let's go see how that the Peabody Hotel is decorated, let's go watch the silly ducks.
Unknown: Let's just eat. But we take the initiative and just say, Hey, let's go do this or, or what is a tradition that you had that you are hesitant to do this year? Do you want to do that one? Or do we want to change it up a little bit? But no, we really just our gift to those who are grieving, as we're saying, first of all, our gift is our presence, you know, meaning our physical presence, and just being willingness to be to do whatever is wanted.
Unknown: So as we kind of wrap up want to, you know, we've talked a lot about being in the holidays and tending to that, but this is a silly example. But we recently had to take my cat to the vet.
Unknown: And when he brought him home, he became really lethargic for about three days, he was really sad. He just slept a lot. I called the vet and I said, what's going on? Is he okay? And they said, it's probably just trauma. He's probably recovering from the trauma of going to the vet. I think about January 2, I think about the week after that.
Unknown: How do we tend to people because they've just come out of a traumatic period? How do we turn for them then?
Unknown: Okay, here's, here's the hard news to tell you. The people are so focused on Thanksgiving and Christmas. But often what people who are grieving tell me is that the January 1 is probably a harder day, from the standpoint that the calendar page has changed. And so now they, they literally can say my husband died last year, when it was two months ago. And so it's just that the time is just moving on, just rapidly. But we're not ready to move forward. You know, and so now it is the the caring, and the sensitivity does not stop January 2, the same that you were giving December 18, you were doing or Christmas Eve you were doing on January 2, and not having expectations for people, you know, we can't put timeline on our own grave, we can't put a timeline on anybody's grief, there is no timeline on grief, it's just everything is just going to be changed. And really, the hope that we have is that we are going to be transformed in our group, God does not waste the Good grief. You know, he's always going to be using it to shape us to be more like Jesus.
Unknown: That's always what it's going to be about that he is going to enter in if we let him and it's going to be doing a work in us.
Unknown: But that but that is that's a really good question. Because people think January 2, okay, I got through it. Why am I feeling worse? You know, so just just be aware of that. Yeah, keep checking in, keep checking in.
Unknown: We've talked about a lot of heavy things. Grief is not always fun to talk about. But I do want to end on a positive note, because this is supposed to be a positive time of the year. And I'm going to quote you from your sermon. And we've kind of we've alluded to this quote already, but I'm going to read it exactly verbatim. There is only one significance to seeing a plastic baby doll in the manger when we see that baby doll it shines a light on the direct path of that newborn baby Jesus to the man Jesus had you on the cross. Can you take that home for us?
Unknown: Take it home? Oh my goodness. I think he just did is the man that hung on the cross walked out of a lockdown of a tomb you know at one point and lives forever and is it send it to the Father and is sitting but side him and is praying for us? So yeah, the man hung on the cross but then he walked out of a tomb. And because of that you and I have life eternal.
Unknown: Thank you for your time. Jackie.
Unknown: Good being with you again.