Emphasis Added
Emphasis Added
Clerkships 101 with Professor Emily Berman
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Welcome to "Emphasis Added," a podcast by the Houston Law Review, where we delve into the world of legal issues, prominent lawyers, and the study and practice of law. In this episode, Season 7 host Tami Bankole and Season 8 host Alexis Roberts meet with Emily Berman, a Professor of Law at the University of Houston Law Center, to discuss judicial clerkships. Professor Berman shares her own experiences clerking for a judge on the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, and gives advice to those interested in pursuing a clerkship.
Whether you're a law student considering a clerkship, a practicing attorney looking to pivot your career, or simply curious about the inner workings of the judicial system, this episode provides valuable insights into the responsibilities, benefits, and pedigree of federal judicial clerkships.
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Welcome & Opening Remarks
SPEAKER_01Hi everyone, welcome back to Emphasis Added, a podcast brought to you by the Houston Law Review. I'm one of your season seven hosts, Tammy Bankoli. If you're watching on YouTube, you will notice that there's a new face on this podcast. It is my pleasure to introduce to you one of our season eight hosts, Alexis Roberts.
SPEAKER_00Hi everyone, I'm Alexis Roberts. I'm a 2-all at the University of Houston Law Center, and I'm excited to serve as co-host for this next season event for decided.
SPEAKER_01Today we have a very special guest with us, our very own Professor Berman. Professor Emily Berman is a professor of law, the William B. Bates, Distinguished Chair in Law and Assistant Dean for Faculty Development at the University of Houston Law Center. Professor Berman brings an especially helpful perspective to today's conversation because she clicked for George John M. Walker Jr. of the United States Court of Appeals for the Circle Circuit after graduating from law school. Professor Berman, thank you for being here with us today. Thanks for having me.
Guest Background
SPEAKER_00Great. So we always like to begin our show by discussing our guest background and allowing the audience to become acquainted with who they're speaking with today. I know you're a third-time guest on Emphasis Added, so our viewers might be familiar with you. But to start, could you just tell us a little bit about your clerkship experience?
SPEAKER_02Sure. So I clerked um immediately following my 3L year. And Judge Walker has his chambers in New Haven, Connecticut. And so I moved up there. And I had, he was chief judge at the time. And so he got four clerks, whereas most of the circuit judges get three. So I had three co-clerks and had a really like fun and challenging and interesting year. And then headed back to New York after that year was over.
SPEAKER_01That's so lovely. So what drew you to clerk in, or like did you go to law school knowing you always wanted to clerk?
SPEAKER_02I didn't go to law school knowing I don't think anything about clerking, actually. But I did know very early on in law school that I wanted to try to go into teaching. Um and it's one of those sort of boxes to check on your resume if that is the career path that you're looking for. And so um as soon as I sort of started down that that path, it was something that was definitely on my on my radar.
SPEAKER_00So what um was clerking what you thought it would be, or what sort of surprised you about your time with Judge Walker? Um, yes and no.
SPEAKER_02Um I think the most surprising thing was, especially at first, it was super, super stressful because he was like relying on you to make recommendations about like how he should resolve actual cases with like actual people that care about their outcome, you know? Um, and so for the first several months, I was super freaked out, both because I felt like tons of pressure to get it right just for the like the people in the cases, but then also I didn't want him to go in to conference with his other the other people on the panel and say, like, oh, well, here's the answer, and have one of them be like, oh, except didn't you find this case that says the exact opposite thing? And me having missed that would have been like humiliating. So um, so for the first several months it was super stressful, and then eventually I realized like, okay, I'm not actually making the decisions, he's making the decision, so all I can do is like provide my best recommendation, and then it's on him. Um, and then also once I'd been there for a while and he knew me, it was like if I if I made a mistake or something, it wasn't gonna be like, oh, now he's gonna think I'm an idiot for the rest of the year, you know.
SPEAKER_01Wow, like that sounds like such an experience. So um students in law school hear a lot about clerkships and externships, but they may not know the difference of what each entails. I know, like as a one-no, I'm hearing clerkships, I'm hearing internships, I'm like, what is what? So can you please explain the difference between a clerkship and an externship?
SPEAKER_02Sure. So uh an externship tends to be something that you do while you're in law school. A lot of people do it in the summer, but I think you can probably also do it during the semester if that works out with your schedule, where you would go and work in a judge's chambers and work alongside their clerks for that summer or that semester, however long it is. Clerkships happen um after you've already graduated. A lot of people do them sort of directly after graduation, but you don't need to do it immediately. Other people, you know, might work for a year or two and then go back and do a clerkship. So there's no real um schedule about when that happens. It's just whatever works out for you and the judge that you end up clerking for.
SPEAKER_00What did your day-to-day
What is a clerkship?
SPEAKER_00look like as a law clerk? I know it can be a little different um at the district court level, at the appellate court level, but as an appellate clerk, what did that look like for you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it was mostly um researching things and writing memos or draft opinions. And so we would get, once we got assigned to a sitting, there would be like a week's worth of cases each month. The judge would sit on a panel uh and hear cases. And so um, several weeks before the sitting, the office would send us a box with like all the briefs. And my co-clerks and our judge let us pick the cases that we wanted to work on, which was nice. And so my co-clerks and I would sit around the table and like horse trade about like, I'll give you this case, and I can have this case. Um, and then it's just a matter of like digging into the briefs and doing the research and writing what's known as a bench memo saying, like, here's the issue and here's how I think it should be resolved for the following reasons. Um and then you send that to the judge, and he was my judge was very much like a work on paper person, and so he would like mark up your memo and put it in his outbox, and maybe he might have follow-up questions. The only time he really did stuff like in a conversation is if he disagreed with you, he would be like, come into my office. Like, here's what I'm thinking, here's why I'm not gonna follow, which was nice of him to like let you know he's not gonna follow your recommendation. And then there was one time where he disagreed with me, but then the panel voted in in favor of my position. He came back and he was like, All right, win! So yeah, so you so before the sitting, you like do the research and write the memos, and then the sitting happens and the arguments take place and the judges go and vote. And then after a conference, he would come back to chambers and let us know, like, here's how the votes came out, and these are the opinions that we're responsible for. And so then if your if our chambers was responsible for an opinion in a case that you had drafted the memo for, then you were mostly responsible for the first draft of that opinion.
SPEAKER_01There's a lot of responsibility. Yeah, well, it's structured too, which is nice. Yeah. So um, does uh how much does a clerkship differ based on the court, like so, for example, federal versus state court, district versus appellate, do you think the work differs much or is pretty much the same?
SPEAKER_02I think I think it differs a lot depending on the level of clerkship. So, like for appellate clerkships, at least in the federal system, they tend to be like what I described. There's sort of a schedule and a progression of things that's a you know, monthly cycle, if you will, that you can predict and you know what's gonna happen. Um, and things will differ in like, you know, how much does the judge want to do his own first draft, or how does the judge like to assign cases to different clerks? Or so there'll be differences like that, but the sort of schedule and overall work, I think, tends to be pretty similar in appellate cases, in appellate clerkships. Um, at the trial court, it's sort of whatever happens to be going on in that trial court's docket. So it could be um, you know, scheduling conferences or motions practice, or there could be a trial, or there could be a sentencing, or and it just totally depends on what the I think it it varies from time to time. And then I also think you're sort of juggling more than one case, because one case might be in the middle of motions as this one gets ready for trial, and um, so I think it's a little bit more unpredictable and also a little bit more like varied in the type of work you do. I think it's less like super in-depth research, because like you need to like come up with an answer sooner than like three months from now or whatever. Um and I don't I don't know much about state court clerkships, but I would imagine it's a similar story just because of the nature of like a trial court versus an appellate court.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Did you ever get to watch the oral arguments or watch the panel deliberate or anything like that?
SPEAKER_02We definitely were at all of the oral arguments. Um we did not go um to conference after arguments, they deliberated just the judges. There are some courts where they'll allow clerks, and I think that's more common in state courts. Um but yeah, um for for the Second Circuit, it was just judges, and then they would come and tell us how they came out, but they wouldn't give us any of the like any of the scoop on what went down during conference.
SPEAKER_00Not the JC stuff. All right. So um students are often
Why clerk?
SPEAKER_00encouraged to pursue clerkships, but they're not really uh made aware of all the benefits of clerking. So why do you think clerkships are valuable for young lawyers?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I think there's there's so many great things about it. Um so first, it definitely was massive improvements in my research and writing skills. Like that's all you do for a year, and you just get better at it because it's lots of practice. Um and those are skills you're gonna use, sort of regardless of where your career takes you if you're in the law for the most part. Um, I think one of the maybe more underrecognized aspects of it is like you get an inside look at the judicial process and sort of the things that have been like, you know, the procedural posture that just gets described in the case books. Like you kind of have a sense, but like actually seeing how how it happens and where the decisions get made and where the investment of time and energy and um so that's helpful. Um the third thing I would say is like you see a lot of writing and arguing from other attorneys, some of it excellent, some of it not so excellent. Um, and so it's a real opportunity to see like what makes an effective advocate, and both in writing and in court. And so that's um a really useful sort of clinic in that, because if you sit in oral arguments all year, you see a lot of lawyers argue. Um and then also it's just a great, like, in the same way that I suspect your law review experience is a lot about the people that are on your journal with you in that community. Um, clerkships are like that in that chambers is like a very small law firm. It tends to be like the judge and the judge's administrative assistant, and then two or three or four clerks. And that's like your whole professional world for that year. Um, and so um, so those are just great, you know, lifelong relationships that you that you form. And um, so that part of it's nice too.
SPEAKER_01That's lovely. And to like follow up on that, so what um skills did you get from your clerkship that you still use currently as a professor, as a scholar, and as a mentor?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say that the research and writing obviously is a big part of what I what I still do. Um, so that's that's a lot of it. Um, I think I also am able to, as far as like mentors with students, have these kinds of conversations with people and really encourage them to see the value in um in having clerked. Um and so there's also, I suppose, some aspects like one of the nice things about clerking is like every case that comes in front of you, it's like a whole new area of law that you get to to learn about. And so I do feel like it really expanded just my like substantive sense of like what is going on in the courts. Um, and that's just a good thing to have going forward.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. So for students who maybe aren't sure if they want to pursue a career in litigation or maybe they don't, they already know they don't want to do litigation, do you think clerking's still a good fit? Are there still valuable skills they can learn?
SPEAKER_02Oh, for sure. Um, I mean, whatever you do in the law, like good read good writing and legal thinking are a key to it. So, like, if you're writing a contract, you may not be planning to litigate, but you're thinking about how can we avoid litigation in the future. And so the more you know about you know how litigation works and what tends to create controversy, like that's gonna help you do your job better at the earlier stages. So I don't think there's um really uh like maybe if you want to be a litigator, the the oral advocacy skills are are maybe more interesting to you. Um but as far as just like a really great learning experience, like in one-on-one with a federal judge who's like knows a lot more about all of this than you do and has been doing it a long time and is like a really good teacher, um, like a one-on-one teacher for your writing, and that's that's a really valuable experience, I think, for anyone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's lovely. Um, very valid point about you know, you draft a contract so you don't end up in court. Because whenever people are in litigation, they're like, yeah, those contract drafters, they made a mistake. Um so
Clerkship Applications
SPEAKER_01we all know the clerkship application process can be pretty opaque. So we'll like to shed some light on how students should go about applying to judges. What should current one else and tools be doing right now if they're thinking about clerking?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so there's a few ways to think ahead. So one thing to think about is like what goes into your application. And so are there classes that you think judges would like to see you have taken? Like people tend to um say like federal courts or criminal procedure or things that have issues that come up if it's a federal courtship that you're clerkship that you're looking for. Um so so one is sort of class, you might want to think about your class selections. Um, another thing is you want to have a writing sample, and ideally it's something more sort of sophisticated than like something you wrote in LSS. And so thinking about like when am I gonna take an upper level writing class so that I can have a paper that might serve as um, or even um, do I want to join a journal so that I have a writing sample based on my work for the journal that I can give? And then um maybe most importantly is you should be getting to know your professors because um recommendations are a big part of the clerkship application, and it matters more for some judges than others. You know, some judges they like get to know professors and they say, Oh, this person like sent me that clerk, and that clerk was awesome, so I'm gonna listen to what they have to say. Um but even without those personal relationships, the the recommendations are important, and so the more the better someone can get to know you, and the more aspects of you and your capabilities. So, you know, having had you in class, but also maybe having seen some of your writing and spoken to you in office hours, and you know, so the the better you can get to know professors who are ultimately gonna be your recommenders is important too.
SPEAKER_00Oh, great advice. Um how should students go about applying or creating their list of judges? People say, should they do targeted applications? Should they cast a wide net? What was your approach?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, in some senses, it depends on your situation. Like I knew I wanted to clerk and I knew I was willing to go anywhere for a year, and I knew I preferred an appellate clerkship. So I basically applied to like appellate judges all around the country. Um, and a few district judges in places that I would sort of most like to live, I guess. Um, but you know, not everyone has that kind of geographic flexibility, and so it may be that you want to target a particular metro area. And so within Houston, maybe if you're, you know, you have family obligations or or whatever keeps you in Houston, you can apply to, you know, appellate judges and trial court judges and state court judges and magistrate judges and bankruptcy judges. Like there's all different kinds of judges in any one given area that you can also focus sort of that way. And then I would say in in some ways, just like the broader you are willing to apply, the likelier you are to get a clerkship. I mean, it's one, it's one of those things where like there are just like a lot more qualified people than there are positions. And so um, you know, if you're willing to go to like the District of North Dakota for a year, like they probably get a lot fewer applications than the Southern District of Texas gets. And so, um, so thinking sort of strategically in that way about like um, you know, how important is it to you to clerk, how important is it to you to clerk at a particular kind of court, and then that might drive some of your your application strategies.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, what are the major components of a clerkship application?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I talked a little bit about that, um, but there'll be a cover letter, um, which is can tend to be like pretty generic of like, why do I want a clerk, or at least generic for appeals court judges, and then another generic one for trial court judges. If there's some particular connection you have with a judge, or they're like, my whole family lives in North Dakota, like of course I would be thrilled to come there. Um so if there's a particular connection, you might want to raise that. Um there's cover letter, there'll be your resume, um, your transcripts, your writing sample, and your recommendations. And I think that usually is it. It might differ from some judges ask for like your undergraduate transcripts or recommendations from like your pre-law school employer if there was one or something. So there are certain judges that might ask for something different, but those are sort of the basics.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I definitely recommend to anyone applying read the Oscar listings very closely. Because some judges will you know require three recommenders or two, or they'll want you to have recommenders plus references. So read them very closely. Make sure you're following the instructions they give you. Important is that transcript, and how should students think about explaining weaker grades if they should at all?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So it really depends on the judge. Um, most judges um tend to have their clerks go through the applications taking the first pass. And there are some judges who say if they're not on law review, not in top 10% of the class, don't even send them to me. Um, but I think that's not most judges. There, you know, there are a few like that where the you know the transcript's going to be um really important. Um, but I think a couple of things. One is if you have one or two lower grades early on and you can show like a um an improvement over time, it's just like with employers, you know, they they can see that. And that's so that's one way to deal with grades you're not super excited about is like get better ones the next semester. Easy, right? Um so there's that. The other thing is if it's in a class where you know the professor and you participated and you have a good, you know, maybe you had like a really bad day on exam day, one of the best ways to deal with the grade is to get that professor to write a recommendation and say, like, you know, didn't come out the way that either of us had hoped, but I don't think this reflects, you know, the experience that I had with this student. Um so that's another way to do it.
SPEAKER_00That's really great advice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that is. Um, I know you spoke a little bit about you mentioned Oscar, so some of our audience may not know what Oscar is. So can you please tell us what Oscar is and how students should use it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Oscar is um, and to be to be clear, I'm old and so Oscar came like long after my time of clerkship applications, but um Oscar is the electronic application system. Um and in some ways it's like very it's like applying to law school. You like upload your transcripts and it's all centralized and any judge you you know check the box of which judges you want it to go to. Uh, and so that is more efficient than like stuffing a hundred, you know, um, envelopes and putting them in the mail. Um but not all judges use it, not all judges use it in the same way. Judges use it on different schedules. So I think it is probably handy for researching judges and trying to figure out like, do they use Oscar, do they not? What is their hiring time frame? Do they say in their Oscar posting, like I like to hire at this time of year, or that sort of thing? So so it's both a uh a mechanism for making the hiring process just like logistically easier, but then also a potential source of information about the judges and their processes and what they're looking for. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And we've we chatted a little bit about this, but people will hear about the plan, the federal clerkship hiring plan. Can you explain a little bit about what the plan is?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so the plan is sort of an effort to impose some sense of structure on an otherwise like super chaotic uh process. And rather than having like every judge, you know, act on their own timeline, try to have like uniform, like this is the sort of application deadline, and judges don't aren't supposed to look at applications before that day, and then um then there's another date through which um after which they can start um scheduling interviews, and then there's another date after which they can start giving offers, and all of it is meant to like slow things down a little bit so both the judges and the people that are interviewing have some time to like prepare for the interview, to not feel like you know, you have the like the judges don't have to like make offers to the first three people they meet. And so um applicants aren't like trying to decide like I have interviews offered to me in this city and that city, like which one do I go to? Um so it's it's it's aimed at making it a little more structured and predictable. I think it is um not fully effective, I should say, in that regard, just because judges aren't obligated to go by it. Um and a lot of them don't, and some of them do it when it comes to to 2L students, but they don't do it when it comes to 3Ls or graduates. Um, and so the chaos definitely remains. Um, but it's also you know, worth worth knowing like, is are the judges that you're applying to do they use the system and therefore here's the deadline by which I need to um I need to apply, and then here's the day that I can like start hoping my phone rings.
SPEAKER_00So what I know currently from my application process is that um two alls can't even access Oscar until April of their two all year. So you can't even go in and look at the list of judges yet until April, and then you can start getting your applications together, but the judges can't access them until June. And now um recently Oscar sent an email explaining that the plan has been updated. So this year on Monday, June 8th, that is when judges will be able to see 2 all's clerkship applications. They can see the three, if 3 all's or graduates are applying right now, they can see those. But not until June can they see the 2 all applications and they can't um contact applicants until the next day, June 9th, and then it's not until June 10th that they can conduct the interviews and make offers. So they've added another. It used to be that um there was a day to look at the applications and then the next day you could start interviewing and offering, but now they've added that extra 24 hours, like Professor Berman said, to um, I think reduce that them offering the first three people that they see, and then there's no more seats to go around. So that's kind of the current the 2026 timeline. Who knows what's gonna happen in the future? But but yes, and on Oscar it'll um tell you if that judge is taking just online applications or if they're taking paper applications as well. You can always mail in your application and see if um you might get an interview before June.
SPEAKER_01Thanks
Interviews
SPEAKER_01for that information, Alexis. So we've discussed sending out applications, which is a very big step in the clerkship process. The next thing is hopefully to get called for an interview, which I think is an honor to even get called for an interview for a federal judge. So um, if a student is invited to interview, um what can they do to what do it should they expect from a clerkship interview?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sort of sort of like the clerks themselves, it's it depends a lot on the judge. So, like my judge, I didn't know this at the time, but now I know that once he's interviewing you, he feels like, okay, this person has like checked off the qualification boxes. And at that point, he's looking for like fit. Like, is this somebody that I want to have around my office for the next year? Is this someone that I think is gonna get along with these other two people that I already hired that are gonna be around my office? And so, so he was all about like harmony within chambers, which you know that's that's great. Some judges care less about that. Um so his interview was more just like a sort of get to know you, like what was your favorite class in law school and what was your paper about, and and that sort of thing. Um, I think other judges are going to be, you know, much more rigorous legally. Um, you should definitely be prepared to talk about anything that's on your resume. Um, definitely be prepared to talk about any writing sample that you sent in to them. Um it's helpful to do a little bit of research about both the judge and the court on which they sit. Um not because a judge is gonna expect you to have read all of their opinions, but like, you know, if there was a major decision that just came out of that court recently, or if there was a super high profile opinion that the judge wrote, like it's good to be aware of that, even if you know it's not gonna be like the heart of the of the interview. Um so yeah, I think um being sort of aware um that sort of anything could come at you. And one thing I should say, and I I should have mentioned this about when you know picking your list of judges, is you should talk to the the CDO people, the people in your career office, because they know more about the individual judges and their hiring practices and who tends to hire from your school and what their schedules like and how what do your grades have to be, that sort of thing. But then also um I would guess they will do mock interviews, um, which is always um a good idea. Just and and definitely have that answer for why do you want a clerk? Because that's sort of an obvious one that sometimes people don't think about because, like, of course I want a clerk. Why would I be here?
SPEAKER_00It's like you don't want to be deer in the headlights for that one. I know that our CDO here at UH, they have a lot of resources um and they can connect you with you know former clerks of that judge. Did you ever get in contact with Judge Walker's former clerks before your interview or anything like that? Um I did not. It's that's a good way to get some insight about how that particular judge works. It's also your professors are a great resource, I found, because you know, Professor Berman might write a recommendation letter for someone who now is clerking, and then when someone else asks her, she can say, Oh, I know someone who's clerking for that judge right now, and here's their info. So lean on lean on the faculty and staff at your school. Yes, for sure.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So um I know like a lot of interviews, not even just clerkship interviews, but job interviews, whatever, after they've asked you the questions, they usually end with. So do you have any questions for us? What kind of questions do you think an applicant should have at the back of their head to ask a judge that will impress the judge after the interview?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think one thing to ask is like, what is the role of clerks in your chambers? What kind of work do they do? What are the expectations? Um I think you probably don't want to ask, like, what kind of hours do they work? Um, just because that might imply that you're not wanting to work long hours, but you might ask questions that sort of get at what is the sort of work ethic in this chamber. Like my judge, he had um a 12-year-old daughter, and he like clockwork, he left at 5 30 and he was not there on the weekends. And we often stayed after he um left to finish up whatever we were doing that day, but there was no like weekend FaceTime. You know, and some people are like, my judge works all the time, and anytime he's in the office, we're supposed to be in the office. Um, so trying to sort of suss out those situations um can be useful. Um, but I think mostly it's about, you know, what is what is this job? You you can also ask, like, um, what have your clerks gone on to do? So, you know, judges love to talk about their former clerks that are like this and that and the other. So you can ask um, because you know, some judges are known for like, oh, their clerks tend to go into academia or they tend to go into like these particular firms or whatever. Um, so there's there's that kind of question too.
SPEAKER_00So
Think about it!
SPEAKER_00um so some students might still be unsure if they're a good fit or whether they're unqualified. We talked about how there's definitely more applicants than there are positions. So what do you say to students who think clerkships aren't for them or that they might be unqualified to apply?
SPEAKER_02Well, there's no harm in applying, right? If it's something you want to do, you should pursue it. And um, not every clerkship is as competitive as, you know, the federal circuit courts and and district courts. There are um magistrate judges in every district that do the exact same work as the district court judges do. They just, they're not Article III judges. Um, and the district court judges, they don't, they don't issue like final opinions. They basically like get reviewed by um the district court judges. But often a district court judge will just say, like, for the reasons laid out in the magistrate's opinion, here's what I decide, because it's it's literally the same, the same work that magistrates are doing. So you get that same insight um in a much less competitive um context. Um also um there's source their specialized judges, so there's um bankruptcy court. So if that's the you're interested in financial issues, that's something there. The Texas Business Court is now up and running. I think they're in their like second or third year. Um, and so if you're interested in sort of corporate law issues, that's another place that I think is probably they probably don't get as many applications because I don't know how many people know that they're around these days. Um so so that's one thing I would say is there are lots of different clerkships to apply for, and you can apply really broadly and raise your chances. And then the other thing I would say is don't think of it as like, oh, I applied and I didn't get a clerkship. I guess I didn't get a clerkship. Like you can apply year after year after year if you want to. Um, and there are some judges that prefer clerks who have had some working experience. So say you go, you don't get a clerkship while you're in law school, you go work at a firm or whatever you do for the first year or two that you're in practice, that's gonna make you more appealing to certain judges. And especially if you know you don't have the shiniest resume or transcript, but like you've done really well in your job and you have, you know, partners that are gonna go to bat for you with a judge, like you might improve your chances um by waiting to do it, you know, after you've had a couple of years of um experience under your belt.
SPEAKER_01Great. Thanks so much for those words of encouragement. Like that would definitely hopefully help people who think they're still unqualified. Um, so like as I said, when I came into law school, I didn't know what clerkship was. So are there any other um words of encouragement you want to give to first generation law students on how to navigate the clerkship process process and you know what resources those students should use if they don't know where to start?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, so so one thing is I would say it's one of those things that like about law school that like if you don't know, you don't know. And um, and don't be intimidated by it, but it can be like a very powerful um credential on your resume. Um, and this is something that maybe um lawyers who aren't thinking about litigating should think about. Like there are significant bonuses that firms give for people who clerk. So even though maybe you're foregoing that first year of law firm salary, um, you know, they don't fully make up for it with the bonus, but it is a it is a tidy sum of money, you know, depending on the firm. Um, so that is out of people should know that is um a nice byproduct of clerking. Um, but also I would say like, you know, talk to the CDO, talk to your professors, get a sense of like what does clerking get you, what does it do for you, and therefore is it something that you want to pursue? But then also knowing what makes it more likely that I'm gonna get a clerkship early on also helps. So, like, I think most judges want their clerks to have been on a journal just because of the research and editing experience that comes with that. And so if you come into law school and you've never heard of a clerkship, maybe you don't know that you should really be trying to get on a journal. Um, and so I would just say, you know, early on, you know, ask mentors whether they're upper-level students or professors or career office people, um, and just sort of get the get the lowdown and see if it's if it's for you and and what your next step should be. That's great advice.
SPEAKER_01Great advice.
SPEAKER_00And I think also I you talked about the Texas Business Court briefly, and we talked we've talked a little bit about externships and internships. Tammy and I both um have worked for Judge Adruga at the business court. It's Division 11a. Not all the business court judges have interns, but she does. And so that I think that's also a great way to sort of know if you want to do the kind of work that clerks do is by getting some of that experience in chambers working with a judge.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a that's a great point. And it gives you a sense of like what do clerks do. And I don't know how many judges hire former interns. I know sometimes they have policies, like I've I've known judges who have policies like against hiring if they teach a class, they have policies against hiring their students because they don't want like the whole semester to be like an interview. Um and so there might be judges that have the same thing with with interns, but maybe not. And if you clerk for one judge and you really wow them, they might not hire you, but they might tell a colleague on the court, like, hey, I had this stellar intern, you should look for their application, you know? And there'd be a and and judges are great recommenders if you go if you have an internship with a with a judge that's willing to write a re uh recommendation. True.
SPEAKER_00Or even yeah, even just a reference, a phone call can absolutely help you. I hear a lot that you know the judges have the grade requirements, but a lot of people have the top 10% or top 20% or whatever grade. So the recommendations, like you said, the recommendations and the uh references can definitely pull your application to the top. So to close,
Closing Remarks
SPEAKER_00we'd love to hear some personal reflections from you. What is um advice you might give to students who feel intimidated? I know we've talked about that a little bit, but just to close us off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's it's the kind of thing there's a lot of these things in law school where it's like, what is journal? What is outlining? What are exams? And it's like just every it's clerkships can be demystified just like all of those other things can. And so just because it's an unfamiliar topic doesn't mean you should should shy away from it. Um you're perfectly, you know, you're you figured out how to outline, right? You can figure out what it means to clerk in the in that same way. And so I would just encourage people um to think about it regardless of what your career path is gonna be. Um, you know, I I still am in touch with my co-clerks. Um my judge is actually having a clerkship reunion next weekend that I can't go to. But his clerks get together once a year, and that's a whole other network for you to be plugged into. And so they're just a lot of great intangible benefits in addition to the hard skills and the potential clerkship bonus that you get from a law firm.
SPEAKER_00Of course, that's a huge plus. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, Professor Berman, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Emphasis Added. It's been truly an honor. Before we close, is there anything else you'd like to share with our audience? Whether advice for students, reflection on your journey, or anything else on your mind? Um, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02I would just like foot stomp the idea of think about it. Even if it's not you, maybe you decide it's not for you for whatever reason. Think about it. Okay, great advice.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Uh, it's been a great, great honor serving as one of season seven's hosts for the podcast Emphasis Added. Um, for our listeners tuning in to this episode of Emphasis Added, make sure you follow us on your favorite podcast platform, Tammy Bankoli, signing out. Bye. Bye bye.