The Two Piers Podcast
The Two Piers Podcast explores leadership, work, organizational systems, and the human side of doing meaningful work.
Hosted by Erica D’Eramo, founder of Two Piers Consulting, the podcast features thoughtful conversations and reflections on leadership development, coaching, workplace culture, team dynamics, sustainable performance, career growth, and the realities of navigating complex professional environments.
Two Piers Consulting works with leaders, teams, and organizations through executive coaching, team coaching, leadership development, workshops, and organizational consulting. The podcast extends that work by examining the patterns, practices, and systems that help people and organizations work with greater clarity, care, and impact.
The Two Piers Podcast
From Burnout to Breakthrough: Dr. Marissa Alert on Building Resilient Teams
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In this episode, Erica D’Eramo sits down with clinical psychologist and behavioral change expert Dr. Marissa Alert to explore the hidden costs of burnout—and what it really takes to create high-performing, resilient teams. After a life-altering car accident forced her to reexamine her own experience with burnout, Dr. Alert founded MDA Wellness to help leaders move beyond surface-level wellness initiatives and address the systemic roots of stress in the workplace.
From the dangers of “presenteeism” to the myth of rest as a reward, this conversation dives deep into the habits and cultural norms that keep burnout in place—and what organizations can do to change course. Whether you're a leader, HR professional, or someone navigating burnout yourself, this episode is full of insight and practical tools.
In This Episode, We Discuss:
- Dr. Alert’s personal journey from burnout to founding MDA Wellness
- Why burnout is so often overlooked and normalized in high-performing environments
- The problem with one-size-fits-all wellness programs
- How the industrial model of work contributes to unsustainable performance
- The critical role of rest and recovery in long-term success
- Steps individuals can take to recognize and recover from burnout
- Strategies for organizations to diagnose and address systemic drivers of burnout
- When to bring in external expertise—and how to tell if your current efforts are falling short
Resources & Mentions:
- Dr. Marissa Alert’s company: MDA Wellness
- Rest Is Resistance by Tricia Hersey
- Dr. Alert’s features in Forbes and Newsweek
Connect with Dr. Marissa Alert:
🌐 mdawellness.com
💼 LinkedIn – Marissa Alert, PhD
📩 Join her monthly virtual roundtables for leaders focused on well-being and performance
Connect with Two Piers Consulting:
🔗 twopiersconsulting.com
📣 Follow us on LinkedIn
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Hello and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we have a guest joining us, Dr. Marissa Alert. So as a psychologist, former teacher consultant and expert in behavioral change, she has worked with top organizations to implement science backed strategies that reduce turnover, optimize stress management and drive sustainable success through her boutique consulting firm MDA Wellness, she partners with fast paced companies to build resilient, high performing teams and foster a culture of well being. And our guest today doesn't just talk about burnout. She helps companies solve it. She has made it her mission to help leaders and organizations break free from the burnout cycle, to create workplaces where people want to work. We're so happy to have Dr. Alert on the podcast with us. Thank you so much, Dr. Alert for joining us.
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah, Thank you so much, Erica. It is an absolute pleasure to be here today, especially since we're talking about some topics that I am super passionate about and so yeah, excited to get into it.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah. It's really an honor to have you on the podcast like, I know you've been featured in some very prestigious publications, like, I've seen your work in Forbes Newsweek, just kind of you're one of the trusted experts in this field. So really grateful to have you on the podcast to share your insights, because this is a topic that so many of our coaching clients and organizational clients of Two Piers deal with regularly. So really, very timely, especially right now with so much volatility and unknown out there. So what was, what was your journey? What's, what is your kind of origin story?
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah, you know, what most people know about me is I'm a psychologist in my clinical practice actually work with a lot of high achieving professionals to help them manage stress and burnout, insomnia, depression, anxiety, and I also run this boutique consulting firm to help companies build more resilient and high performing teams without sacrificing their people in the process. But what most people don't know about me is that I had a moment, a literal moment, where everything could have ended. And so years ago, I was in a car accident, a really bad one, and it was one of those accidents where the paramedics look at the car, they look at you, they look back at the car, they look at you, and they say, you shouldn't be here. You should not be safe. And we mean it, right. And in the aftermath of that, I just remember there being so much silence, right, this definite silence, and in that silence, there was a question that rose that seemed so clear in the moment, right? It was, if that had been it, would you have been proud of how you spent your time and the impact you made? And Erica, if I'm being honest, the truth in that moment was so hard to admit, right? Because the truth was one, I was burned out. I built a career based on comfort, stability, security, right? And it was what felt like the smart path. And so on paper, a lot of things look great, but inside, I felt like I was just running on empty, living, I would say, an unfulfilling but it wasn't completely fulfilling, right? And so I was succeeding, but I wasn't thriving. I was functioning, but I was not fulfilled. And I was just wondering, you know, is there all? Is this all? There is to it? And that accident shook me and it woke me up right, because it forced me to reckon with how I was living and how so many of us are taught to just push through the exhaustion instead of listening to it. And so in those moments afterward, I made a shift. It wasn't overnight, and it definitely wasn't without any fear, but I knew that I couldn't go back to living and working the way I was. And I also knew that I wanted to spend more time, effort and energy, helping others avoid one becoming burned out, remaining burned out, or just being in a cycle where they burn out, they think they recover and they're back there again, because having experienced burnout, it doesn't just take your energy, right? It steals your presence, your joy and your ability to show up and live exactly how you want. And so I realized the workplace can either be an environment that can support that kind of life, or constantly interfere with it. And so I started MDA Wellness to work with leaders and organizations who want to do it differently, right, who want to create cultures and environments and businesses where well being and performance can actually coexist, right? Because time is short, and I know we say that a lot, but having had that come to Jesus moment, it really hits you, right? So time is short, and as leaders, right, we shape how others spend their time. And so the question I often pose is, you know, as leaders, are we creating environments that sustain people, or are we creating systems that slowly burn them out?
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, yeah. I think my wake up moment was a similar like, Oh, if it for me, it was a helicopter, but it was like, if this helicopter goes down today, well, I have regrets, but you, you know, you think about like, that wake up moment of what really matters here. Like, what can I not? You can always, I don't, I shouldn't say you can always get the money back. But like, money is replenishable. Resources, things are replenishable, and time is the only one that is never going to be replenishable. And I think it's really heartening to hear when people are when the people who have had the aha moment earlier in their lives are helping others have that aha moment without having to be in a life threatening accident or a life or death situation, you know. And some people won't have that wake up until the end of their career, where they look back and wish it had been different, wish that they had understood what was important to them earlier. So I think it's just incredibly important work, because not everyone will have the the stark reality check. So true, yeah, yeah. So when, when we look at the concept of burnout. What? What do you think makes this such a challenging problem, both for individuals and for organizations, like what makes it like? Why haven't we fixed this yet?
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah, so I'll start with the individual side, having worked with a number of clients, again, who tend to be very high achieving. They're used to excelling, and then they hit this burnout bump where they keep working harder. You think they have to put in more hours, and it's like, all right, like I am not performing at the level that I used to. What's happening, and that creates a lot of angst. A lot of anxiety, can sometimes fuel symptoms of depression, and in those instances, I often find that because burnout develops slowly, it can be hardness, and it's that slow build up where you're starting to feel, you know what? I'm a little tired, or I'm fatigued or I'm exhausted, but you brush it aside, right? Because the initial stages of burnout feel familiar. It's things that we've all experienced, and because we've all had moments where we felt fatigued or exhausted or maybe down. It's like, well, this is just a part of the process. This is just a part of life. I'm doing tough work. It makes sense that I feel this way, and that response right, can easily lead to us normalizing that state, not just in the short term, but chronically feeling that way, and when we don't take active steps, to hit the pause button, to dig a little deeper and ask ourselves, is it just that I'm feeling this way in a moment, or have I been feeling this way for the past week, two weeks, month, half the year, the entire year, right? And most of the times, people don't. And so this slow build up leads to us, one neglecting the signs, and I don't think we're doing it intentionally, right. And because we're neglecting it, we don't have that awareness. It's difficult for folks to take action. From an organizational perspective, I think burnout is hard to fix because most companies are solving the wrong problem, right? They're often trying to solve a systemic problem with individual solutions, right? And so we know that we can only address what we see and what we measure. And oftentimes, organizations aren't asking questions or digging deep enough to really move beyond the surface and to see what's driving the things that we can see the things that we are currently measuring right and so I like to think about it as like an iceberg. So sometimes companies might be treating the 10% right of what's visible above water, the performance issues, the missed deadlines. People are taking more vacation right, which should be good, but not the times we expect them to, and they're focusing on that and not addressing the 90% that's lurking beneath right, the systemic issues that might be driving exhaustion right, the workplace behaviors that are misaligned with what the company says it values and what it hopes to promote. And I think the second biggest issue is that we keep trying to treat burnout is solely an individual problem when it can also be a systemic one, right? So in companies that I've worked with that see burnout, either intentionally or unintentionally, as an individual problem, they tend to throw solutions at it that are solely focused on an individual level, right?I see you laughing, right?
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, go do a yoga class.
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yoga classes. I was in a conversation with someone yesterday, and they mentioned therapy dogs, right? They're going to allow dogs to show up in the workplace because, you know, people love their pets, and when this is happening, it's essentially saying you're feeling this way because of you. It has nothing to do with the environment that we've created, right? It's just you. And so these, these perks and benefits, right? Are like giving someone an umbrella in a hurricane. You know, sure it helps a little, but I'm still getting drenched.
Erica D'Eramo:It just like, doesn't make sense for the engineer brain in me is like you're treating a symptom and not the root cause. Like, what is the root cause of this? This is and, and I know you mentioned resilience, or, like, some of the work that you do is around like resilience, and I have been talking lately about just, I have such a complex relationship with that term resilience, because so often when it's used, it doesn't truly, when companies use it, they don't truly mean like creating environments that are more likely to foster resilient outcomes. They're just like, you should just keep enduring harder, Yeah.
Dr. Marissa Alert:Try harder like you're not doing enough, right? And then they may draw comparisons to people who look like they're thriving or doing well, who are probably just numbed to what they're experiencing. And they make comparisons like so and so has been here for 10 years, and they're still going strong, but just because that's happening, is that really an efficient way to go about things? And you know that brings me to another point of why burnout can be so challenging, is that we're operating on an industrial model that treats humans like machines, right? As if 100% linear output is possible without proper recovery, right? But humans aren't machines. I mean, with the way things are going with AI, there might be some blurring lines there, but right now, we're biological systems that pulse between energy expenditure and renewal, and so if we keep doing things the way that we are, right, if companies keep showing up and holding the same expectations that they are, it's not going to be sustainable, right? And so I like to think about it as or encourage leaders to think about, you know, how they define success, and to see whether that definition actually contradicts or promotes well being right? Because it's like imagining if your GPS keeps congratulating you for taking the longest route, right? That's what a lot of performance systems do. They reward output, not efficiency, right? And definitely not sustainability. And so until leaders start one modeling recovery, asking deeper questions like, Is this needed? Is this deadline realistic? Are we stacked appropriately? Can this wait until tomorrow? Do you have what you need to function, not just in terms of output, but as a human right? And these may seem like soft questions, but they're really strategic ones, because sustainable performance requires sustainable practice, and the truth is, preventing burnout isn't compassionate, it's also a competitive advantage, and so the companies have figured that out. In my experience, they're not just healthier, they're more innovative, they're more successful, and their people enjoy working there.
Erica D'Eramo:I have so many thoughts like, yeah, my brain is going in a million different directions. One, I want to give a shout out to Trisha Hersey's work on on some of like when you talk about recovery and rest, like it is both. You know, as humans, yes, rest is necessary and recovery is necessary for us to be productive. And also, like the concept that just as humans, we deserve to rest, regardless of what our output is, is something that takes our brains a lot to rewire, because it's not something, you know, like, I'll, I'll get to rest once I get XYZ done, or, you know, like, oh, resting today will mean I can be more productive tomorrow. And just even the rewiring of that belief that we we don't just need to rest to be productive, but also we deserve rest because we are human beings,
Dr. Marissa Alert:We just deserve rest.
Erica D'Eramo:We just deserve rest
Dr. Marissa Alert:After it, or if we've done a good job, or if we were able to check all the items off of our to do list, it's just we we need rest and we deserve it.
Erica D'Eramo:Yes, yeah, which is like sounds so simple to say it out loud, but really like embedding that as a practice when we are when we are in and amongst these systems that measure output. But it just makes me think about, you know, the pandemic and the return to Office, and how it really highlighted for me and for a lot of individuals, actually, the disconnect between what was being measured, you know, what's easily measured in terms of hours at a desk, physical proximity to the office, and hours of presence, versus getting real clear, which might be much, much harder. It might be much more qualitative. Like, what does a good job look like here? So we skip to the easy thing. Like, Well, are you here and present?
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah
Erica D'Eramo:Eight, nine, ten, twelve hours a day. Oh, that's good work, right? Like, but did you What did you do? Like, how did I actually help? Were you just busy work? Did you just chit chat, like, how what is actually tight? And I think that that's tough for managers who haven't really had to think through or, like, strategic leaders who haven't really had to think what, what are we truly doing, and how do we want to do it? And and in that model of presenteeism, if you think about it, like the company ends up, or the organization ends up benefiting entirely, like the if somebody does their work quickly and they can't get home and they can't, like, reap the benefits of that, of being efficient, because they just got to sit at
Dr. Marissa Alert:Listen, I am with you 100% on that. their desk for an extra few hours, you're disincentivizing efficiency, right? Like you actually, if you don't allow people to take the upside benefit of working efficiently, you're like, straight up incentivizing people to be inefficient. Okay, that might have been my soapbox, but
Erica D'Eramo:I think for people who are go getters, like high performers, it can be so detrimental to morale to just have to be busy all the time and not feel like they're doing right, like, quality, impactful work, that they then get to reap the benefit of going home when they're done with it, or, like, taking a break if they get it done quickly.
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah, and this resonates so much with me because I remember in graduate school, I'm going to try to leave as many details out. I had to be in lab for set amount of hours, even though the work could be done anywhere. And I hated it, because I was in a building with no windows, meanwhile, the library, it's just windows all around. And so you could be in there and not know what time of day it is, but...
Erica D'Eramo:It's illogical,
Dr. Marissa Alert:And it's like, okay, I'm okay coming here for meetings, but to spend that much time per week in a space that literally, I mean, it was jokingly called the bomb shelter, the above ground bomb shelter, yeah, and the work that I did Like that space and environment wasn't conducive to me producing and performing optimally. Half the time I spent, like, trying to adjust just being there and hating it and trying to tell myself, all right, just get through this.
Erica D'Eramo:Like, if you were a house plant, you would not be doing well. This is, like, one of my primary questions, like, if you were a house plant, how would you be doing right now? Like, not well, because you just haven't had any vitamin D, or, like, any sunshine.
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah, I have a house plant that I have not been taken care of, and it shriveled on my window, so because I'm getting enough exposure to fight, and sometimes I forget to water it.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, like that. Now. Now, here's the thing, right? That where the parallel is, do you look at that house plant and say, like, well, you. Should just Buck up. Like, if you want, if you were a good house plant, you would just be tougher, right? Like when we and this is where I think I see so many leaders getting caught up. And I I'm guessing you're probably gonna talk about this too, because they went through it, and they associate part of their identity value with enduring the hardship, or enduring the pain, or I had to sit in that lab for 10 hours with no sunlight, and that's what made me tough, or that's what like, because they've started to associate value, because the system has tricked them into believing that their hardship and their pain is somehow like, moralistically, like advantageous. Then it's now you're talking about, like, identity issues and identity threat by saying, like, actually, it's illogical to sit here, or you don't need to be you don't need to work 80 hours a week to be a good lawyer or to be a good whatever, right?
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah. And I think this comes back to your question about, like, what does success look like, and how do leaders really get strategic about framing success, not just at an organizational level, but at a team and individual level, and moving away from things that can easily measure to things that are actually meaningful. And I mean, I not gonna get too far off topic, but this just reminds me about the process of getting, like my PhD and having to write a dissertation, and also exams that we took along the way to prove that we are ready to move on from being master's level to PhD. And I'm thinking like, in what way does this relate to the work that I will be doing in the real world? In what way am I actually going to be using these skills now for folks who are going into academia, yes, you need to know how to write, but instead of writing a paper, I should say a book that you then have to break down into different articles so it can actually be published. And I'm speaking specifically for psychologists, since I don't know what anyone else does, but why does, why isn't the focus just on, how can we help you publish multiple papers? Because that then sets you up on a better trajectory than writing hundreds of pages that you then need to distill into a format that journal, academic journals, accept. Like, what are we doing?
Erica D'Eramo:Right!
Dr. Marissa Alert:Show you that I can write? I've been doing that for the past 20 years, like make it make sense, ensure that the connection is clear between what I'm doing and the goals that are being achieved. And are those goals, not because they're there? Are those goals meaningful, right? Are these metrics meaningful? Are they really driving what matters and in a sustainable way, right? And that question comes back to organizations. Are the goals that we're setting for ourselves and employees? Do they make sense, right? Or are we setting out these OKRs? Because this is what we know we need to do, and we need to get something down. So let's just focus on what seems strategic, but really, is this going to move the needle?
Erica D'Eramo:It's like...
Dr. Marissa Alert:Are people able to survive as this needle is being moved?
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I I totally agree. I think there's, it's like, the, there's the part about the stuff that's just easy to measure. It's easier to measure. So we measure so we measure it, even if it doesn't make that total sense, or it's like these vestigial remnants of something that used to make sense in the past, but has just stuck along way too long, like these rites of passage that no longer correlate to actual success in the field, but it's been done, and because the people who hold the power and make the decisions had to go through that they associate value with it, and they are disincentivized to change that kind of rite of passage, or that that gate keeping. But I, I think one of the a lot of this stuff became very clear, well, one, one of my observations, was that people who, maybe you know, speaking to your piece around the burnout going unnoticed, people who were maybe masking a lot or adjusting themselves or enduring a lot code switching a lot in the workplace that then got a break from that when they got to step away and be in their like areas that were more comfortable, when when output was less around, like these things that don't matter as much and was just pure output, that is when I saw a little bit more awareness of like, Oh, now I have to go back into that environment and put all of That cloaking back on, and the people who were really eager to adopt the old ways of doing things were the people who benefited from it in the first place, right? The people who like that was their sense of power. That's where they they thrived, right? And then the people who they didn't thrive like I think it was a lot harder, and I think that the burnout that maybe was occurring all. Already became that much more obvious to people when they had that almost like break, when they had when they maybe got to operate in a way that was more sustainable for them, and then it was like, No, we're going to take that away. You're going to go back to the old ways. So I think that, I'm hoping that there's maybe more awareness of it, even if that means a bit more of feeling the pain of it right now, the people that are like experiencing the burnout. But I digress a little. So how do we fix it? How do folks fix it?
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah
Erica D'Eramo:Easy, right?
Dr. Marissa Alert:Easy, really simple. Learn about it and then change. When I think about I guess I'll start at the at the individual level, and move to to the company, company level approach when working with individuals in addressing burnout, a lot of it is helping them to notice and name what they're experiencing. And oftentimes, you know, initial part of treatment is the psycho education part. You know, let's give you terms and definitions for what you're experiencing. Because sometimes people aren't able to articulate what they've been going through. They just know how they might feel physically, sometimes emotionally as well. But there might be more attuned with the physical manifestations of burnout, you know, just feeling depleted and exhausted or thinking about it in the context of their work, but missing how it affects the way they show up in their relationships, right in social situations, or their life outside of work, and there's always this, huh, oh, wow. Like, not not only have I felt this way currently, I felt this way at this job and at this time, and they often realize that they've been in this pattern where they might be changing jobs, thinking that that's gonna address the issue, but there's some commonalities across the board when they look back at their experiences and just that awareness helps to build what I called our burnout awareness strategy. What are the signals and things that you need to be mindful of personally, right? As well as the work you're doing to help you figure out and identify when you might be heading down that road. And so that comes back to this idea of just awareness, right, awareness of what the symptoms are, but also clarity around what it looks like. Because I think as information keeps getting pushed out about burnout, it's become a really popular and important topic since the pandemic. I think oftentimes I see people conflating, you know, I'm feeling sad, or I'm tired after a long day, or after I physically exerted myself, I'm burned out. It's like, yep, you were feeling that way. But is this really an indication of burnout? Perhaps not, right. There needs to be more questions that are asked right assessment and valuation, but that awareness piece is key, because I think it can lead to really questioning how things are working. In addition to that awareness, I think working with a professional to help them navigate that recovery process, because there's often blind spots where people aren't aware of their patterns, and sometimes it takes an outside perspective to really point them out and ensuring that someone you know doesn't just say they can help you because they've been through it themselves. It takes more than that, and not to say like that's the only thing like that. You need to be using evidence based approaches, not, you know, when I was burned out, I took, you know, a year off, I traveled the world, or I got into yoga, and that really cured my burnout. It's not just what worked for you, but what do we know, scientifically and research wise, actually helps with burnout recovery. How do you learn to manage stress in a way that prevents it from being chronic with minimal opportunities for rest and recovery? And so there is a strategy behind addressing and improving the state of burnout that someone's in. And there might be folks who come to that on their own right. They recognize that they need to perhaps change the way that they work or the way that they function, or the relationships or the environment that they're in, right? So not to say it can't happen without a professional, but oftentimes I find folks really benefit from having someone with experience in helping folks navigate this journey.
Erica D'Eramo:I also just want to like emphasize there that usually, once you start peeling back the layers of how these patterns replicate, there's some pretty heavy stuff under there, around belief systems, generational patterns, intergenerational trauma, like all sorts of interesting stuff that you know, your best friend, that you might chit chat with is probably not necessarily equipped to properly hold the space for that when it emerges. And it might not seem like that's what's underlying the burnout, yeah, might just be like, Oh, I'm a high achiever. Well, where did that come from, right? Like, where did, where did the idea that your safety depends on your extrinsic validation. Like, where did you know, where did all that stuff come? Oh, yeah. Like, suddenly we're looking at intergenerational trauma real fast. So I think, like, having this is one of the reasons that I am constantly banging on the drum in terms of when people work with coaches, that they work with a certified coach, because the coach knows when we're like, bordering on the big T trauma, and when it's time to refer out to a psychologist or a therapist, and the therapist is the one that is licensed, like legally licensed and trained to be able to provide that type of support and to not do additional harm, yes. And so I just want to really, like, absolutely, like, underscore how important it is, even if you think it's just like, Oh, I'm just overworking or something like that. Like, there's all sorts of stuff hiding under the surface that probably will emerge.
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah, and you know, that reminds me of a client that I worked with who held a ton of leadership, possession positions in an academic setting, and, you know, at the outset of our treatment, really prided himself on having really high standards. Didn't believe he was a perfectionist. It's just, I believe in doing quality work and in going above and beyond about eight sessions in realized that actually, I learned early on, when I was working with my dad's business that I need to do everything myself, because I can't rely on people to support me, and so I need to go above and beyond, just in case the folks I might be relying on don't show up. And that moved into the if people don't show up, heart was removed. It was more so I need to go above and beyond, always. Forgetting that this is only supposed to be conditional, yeah, because we have to define how you approach everything that you do. Yeah. And that also led to conversations about his relationship with his father, and how working in this business really started to model his belief systems about what it means to be a man, what it means to be successful, and also what hard work, what hard work looks like.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I believe it. That's why I really think Yeah. I so vehemently agree with you that getting help from a professional is so critically important. Because I think, like when I worked in project management, somebody joked, you know, in every little project, there's a really big one just struggling to get out. And I think when we do this work, like in every tactical problem, there's a really deep seated belief one just struggling to get out. So, yeah, so where?
Dr. Marissa Alert:Oh, sorry
Erica D'Eramo:yeah. No, keep going.
Dr. Marissa Alert:I still didn't answer your question about, like, what can companies do?
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah
Dr. Marissa Alert:I know we talked a little bit about the most common approach right just on the wellness band aid with investing in apps and yoga classes and one OP trainings. But a more effective approach requires examining and measuring not just how people work, but also looking at what are some of the indicators that can cause that light to go off, that uh oh, things are heading south, we need to really start doing things differently, and that might look like asking deeper questions, right? Really asking questions and listening to employees, and that might be through surveys or focus groups from outside providers. And this brings me to a story about an HR director I was working with who felt like everyone was safe psychologically, and they had like an open door culture, and if there was a problem. That folks would have told him, because he felt like he was very approachable, and everyone on the surveys that he sent out said that things were like, well, you know, I not like, I don't believe you. I just like to collect data, just the kind of surface things as they are right now. And my results showed something completely different. People did not feel safe speaking up. They didn't feel like they can use all the benefits that the company offered, because one leaders were not people working on weekends. They were sending messages at all hours. And for the folks who did speak up in meetings, they were labeled right as not working hard enough, or receive snarky responses that made others in a room feel like if I brought this up, especially during these public meetings, I don't want to jeopardize my ability to get promoted or how I'm viewed in this organization. And so with my roadmap, it starts with really assessing and understanding. One, how are folks feeling and doing? How is work designed, and is it designed in a way that really helps with fostering well being and productivity, or just we're heavily focused on the productivity end. And another thing too is when you have that data, using it, yes, collecting it for collecting its sake, but really thinking about, how can we take this information partner with someone if we don't have expertise or work with the rest of our teams to ensure that we're making changes that are grounded in good data. And I say good data because not all data is good data or helpful, which is why I highly recommend organizations partner with others who specialize in survey design and development, not the person who just randomly goes out there and creates a server and thinks that that's going to allow them to get meaningful information, in addition to using that data to inform decisions, ensuring that the strategies or resources or the services that are implemented actually align with what The problems are, not because it sounds good or it looks good, but if we're really serious about creating change, is what I'm doing actually going to move the needle right? Because too many companies fall into this mistake of what I called admiring the problem, right? Endless surveys, listening sessions, generating awareness, but there is no action and a detrimental mistake that I also see companies making in their approach to addressing burnout is treating it as an HR issue, as opposed to a leadership and an organizational issue. I've seen over and over again when HR is solely responsible for managing burnout, it becomes a compliance exercise rather than a strategic priority, and we know that sustainable performance at an organizational and an individual level actually requires that leaders Not just model the behaviors, but they support employees in engaging in those healthy and helpful and sustainable behaviors.
Erica D'Eramo:It's I draw a parallel a lot of times when I'm working with heavy industry, or, say, the energy industry, or some of these like industries that have had to really embrace safety culture and using that as a parallel like you would never in any of those industries. You would never say that safety is solely owned by the safety department, right? Like the safety department is the subject matter expert, perhaps they can help bring in additional resources. They can help set direction, but it's owned at the leader and individual level. Like you can say that with safety, and I think with some of these cultural elements too, like people just think, oh, it's owned by HR, when really it needs to be embedded and interwoven into every way that the company operates. Like all of the processes, all of the performance management process, right? Like all of these things, how you're measuring what you're doing. That's where really, like, the rubber meets the road. So, so, yeah, I think that's a great reminder. What else should we know about where organization should maybe start, or who you know, like, who might be listening and like, what are the indications that they should start, start looking for some external support here.
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah, you know, companies should, depending on the size of the organization, you know, I always recommend that they have processes in place to collect good data, and again, that data is going to help to inform what shifts are needed. But when we think about, you know, bringing in outside help or really thinking meaningfully about how to support employees, I think, you know, timing is tremendously important. I often tell clients, there are two times to bring an outside expertise right proactively, so before everyone's burned out, are trying to put band aids on the problem, because you haven't really focused on what's driving this. Or the second time might be, you know, them bringing in outside folks right in the middle ground when you're starting to notice problems and you perhaps think you can handle it internally, but you don't right because you overestimate your bandwidth. Right the time and effort it's really going to take for you to one, create a strategy and deploy it and ensure that it's going to be successful, and all the different components are in place to make sure that, again, you're really addressing the problem. And so when selecting a partner, it's really important for companies to look beyond generic wellness offerings, right? You want someone who can help diagnose the specific patterns creating burnout in the organization, and implement not just a pre packaged program, but one that's really tailored to that organization, its culture, its values and its people, because we can't forget the people in the solutions, right? It may seem like, Ah, this worked at this organization, so they had tremendous results. But will this work for your people specifically? And it's really, really critical that you're partnering with someone who recognizes that while there might be commonalities across successful approaches, the people in that organization are different, and you really have to be thoughtful about what's going to be meaningful for them. And finally, I think another thing is to ensure that when you're looking at strategies, it's not based on I think this will work, but again, data and science and evidence, right? I'm all about not just doing what I think works well, but what's leading me to think so, and not to minimize the importance of someone's prior experience in supporting organizations, but not letting that solely drive what the strategy around burnout or burnout prevention looks like?
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I'm sure most folks listening are like, Oh, I mean, maybe we have a little burnout in our organization, but we're doing great, right? Like, because of the very issue that you mentioned, that we don't usually hear some of those quieter signals or leading indicators when we're in the more senior levels of leadership. So who, who do you think should be listening and saying, Ah, maybe I should rethink that. Like, what, what might be a signal that folks should consider reaching out to even you?
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah, couple signals is if you already collect data and you are looking at employee engagement, one, are you including questions around burnout or stress, or your employees mental well being? And so I often partner with organizations just around. How do we one get a pulse on what's really going on with our people, not just from a business right key metrics perspective or performance review perspective, but from a people perspective, and so helping them identify, Okay? How do we get the pulse? How do we collect data in a meaningful way? How do we communicate about why we're collecting this information and how it's going to be used? So it's not just an exercise of vanity, where we're pretending that we care about you, and we're asking these questions, but we're also being really clear about how are we going to use this data, and why are we going to translate this knowledge into action. Another reason that companies can reach out right is if they're also looking to move beyond again, those one off solutions we know from research and learning and development in memory about how people retain information, and too often I see this approach to, you know, people's wellness strategy around having one offs, even if they are bringing speakers in, right? It's about resilience or stress management.
Erica D'Eramo:Like a lunch and learn.
Dr. Marissa Alert:Yeah, a lunch and learn. And there's nothing wrong with those. But is that the only component of your. Strategy, and within hours of attending one of these sessions, people start forgetting, no matter how dynamic the person was, because most of these workshops and training don't really think about behavior change, right? And so if organizations are looking for behavior change, not just simply raising awareness. I'm your girl, right? Because one of the things that MDA Wellness focuses on is not just how do we raise awareness, but how do we help bridge that gap between knowledge and taking action and integrating change behavior change principles to ensure that people can make sustainable changes. And that approach is woven into the strategies, the workshops and the techniques that we use. Because for me, the big thing is not just about, hey, this is what you need to do, but really ensuring that people have the support, the resources and the ability to make realistic changes.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is, I'm saying this to somebody who gets paid to do workshops, but, I mean, workshops are great for raising awareness about something, but then, like, what happens after the workshop? Because the actual change is, like an embedding process, right? It's, it's habit forming, it's, it's about, you know, feedback loops and all an incentive alignment, all the things that that make it so complex and challenging, even in our day to day, right? Like, how do I get myself to start going to the gym every day, right? Like, it's not just an easy thing. So, so yeah, I absolutely echo that, If people do listen to this episode and think, yes, I do want to work with Dr. Alert then how should they reach out to you? How should they find your work? Yep,
Dr. Marissa Alert:so they can reach out to me through my website, MDAWellness.com I'm also on LinkedIn. I believe I'm the only Marissa Alert. So should be easy to find. And one of the things that you know, if people are skeptical or they're like, I'm not really sure where I want to start or if I need support, I am always open to conversations, and so would be more than happy to be a sounding board and an initial thought partner in helping people understand where they are, where they want to be, and what might be some steps to help them get there in terms of really supporting their employees well being and taking a strategic approach to employee burnout prevention and stress management. And so we host on a monthly basis, virtual invite only round tables where we bring leaders and senior executives from across industries who are dealing with well being challenges, and it's a safe space for them to raise those concerns, hear from others who are tackling similar problems, and also get top of the line insights on boosting and supporting employees well being. And so if you're interested in that again, can reach out to me via LinkedIn my website, and we'll be happy to share that information.
Erica D'Eramo:Awesome. Well, we will include links in the show notes, for sure, but just so that folks can easily find you. It is Dr. Marissa with two S's, D, Alert, so, A, L, E, R T, so yes, if you want to connect, then definitely check out the show notes for this episode. We'll also be posting the transcript for anyone that would like to read through the episode and a summary on our website so that it's easily accessible. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your insights. I really appreciate it. Yeah, really value. Value your time.
Dr. Marissa Alert:Thank you. Thank you so much. Erica also Thank you. thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. And yeah, just a pleasure to be here and to share more about burnout. You know how to approach it and be really thoughtful about it, and how to think about and design work in a way that really connects people with their purpose, right, while supporting their ability and their fundamental human need for rest and recovery.
Erica D'Eramo:Yes, absolutely. And for our listeners, we look forward to seeing you next episode. Thanks for joining us.
