The Two Piers Podcast explores leadership, work, organizational systems, and the human side of doing meaningful work.
Hosted by Erica D’Eramo, founder of Two Piers Consulting, the podcast features thoughtful conversations and reflections on leadership development, coaching, workplace culture, team dynamics, sustainable performance, career growth, and the realities of navigating complex professional environments.
Two Piers Consulting works with leaders, teams, and organizations through executive coaching, team coaching, leadership development, workshops, and organizational consulting. The podcast extends that work by examining the patterns, practices, and systems that help people and organizations work with greater clarity, care, and impact.
What Belonging at Work Really Means with Andrea D. Carter
•Two Piers Consulting•Season 7•Episode 6
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Episode Summary
In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, Erica D’Eramo is joined by Andrea D. Carter, founder of Belonging First and a globally recognized expert in neuroscience-based belonging in the workplace.
Andrea helps clarify what organizations often mean, and sometimes miss, when they talk about belonging. Rather than treating belonging as a vague culture concept or a checklist of initiatives, Andrea explains how it can be measured and strengthened through five indicators: comfort, connection, contribution, psychological safety, and well-being.
Erica and Andrea discuss why belonging matters for trust, motivation, retention, performance, and sustainable ways of working. They also explore common organizational pitfalls, including checkbox belonging, over-reliance on individual resilience solutions, and change efforts that are done to employees rather than with them.
In This Episode
Erica and Andrea discuss:
What workplace belonging really means
Why psychological safety is only one part of belonging
The five indicators of belonging: comfort, connection, contribution, psychological safety, and well-being
How belonging connects to organizational performance and retention
Why clarity is especially important during onboarding, team changes, and reorganizations
The “100% responsibility trap” and why belonging requires shared accountability
Why resilience tools cannot fix systems that are burning people out
How checkbox belonging can leave daily behaviors unchanged
Accessibility, disability, and designing work environments with people in mind from the start
Why AI implementation and other change efforts need co-creation, not just rollout
Key Takeaway
Belonging is not something employees should have to earn by decoding the culture, fitting in, or navigating unwritten rules on their own.
Organizations can build belonging more intentionally by looking at the systems, expectations, relationships, leadership behaviors, and workload norms that shape how people experience work every day.
About Andrea D. Carter
Andrea D. Carter is the founder of Belonging First and the creator of the Belonging First methodology. Her work helps organizations measure and improve belonging through research, consulting, leadership support, and organizational strategy.
Andrea is a strategist, researcher, TEDx speaker, adjunct professor at Adler University, and Forbes Council member. Her work bridges belonging, culture, organizational performance, trust, retention, and sustainable ways of working.
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we have guest Andrea D Carter joining us. Andrea is a globally recognized expert in neuroscience based belonging in the workplace, and the founder of the belonging first methodology, a strategist, researcher and TEDx speaker, she helps organizations turn belonging into measurable infrastructure that drives trust, performance and retention, with multiple global awards for innovation and leadership. Andrea's work bridges the gap between DEI and organizational performance. She serves as an adjunct professor at Adler University and is a Forbes council member. She's here to talk to us today about what we really mean when we talk about belonging, and how do we get it right? Hey, Andrea, so happy to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.
Andrea Carter:
Thanks so much for having me. Erica, it's fantastic to be here today, and I'm really looking forward to diving into belonging and how we get it right?
Erica D'Eramo:
Yeah, it's a big topic of conversation, right? I know that my overtime, I think 20 something years ago, we started talking about diversity, and then we started talking about inclusion, and then we started expanding, and rightfully, you know, it turned into DEI, we looked at equity, and now a lot of folks are talking about DEIB, my, you know, my title with my role with ICF New England evolved to include the beast. So we use the B a lot. We talk about belonging a lot, but I don't know that we're all on the same page about what we mean
Andrea Carter:
well, and that's certainly what the research showed. And so, you know, let's, let's start there, because I think that's a really great place for us to build from for today. So tons of leaders say that they value belonging, but really few A, know that they can measure it, and B, know what it actually looks like or what it actually means. And so when you look at belonging and making belonging measurable, it actually then becomes a business strategy. Right now, just using the language, we are seeing a lot of organizations really falling short. So I like to as a very like simple way of thinking about it, belonging is the science that helps you feel within your organization that you want to be there, okay. So, nice and simple. So what does that actually mean? Right? Let's get let's get into that. So most organizations right now, I would say, are confusing belonging with culture initiatives. They conflate it to psychological safety, often, which is only 1/5 of what's needed. The scientific research that I did and validated specifically on belonging is produced five specific indicators that you need to have present in order for the brain and for an employee to experience belonging. So those very simply put our comfort, connection, contribution, psychological safety and well being. That's why I say psychological safety is 1/5 of what we need. So let's look at the foundations of each of those because you can measure those five indicators, and each of those indicators actually has tactics, behaviors and metrics that help us improve belonging within the organization.
Erica D'Eramo:
So it's, it's interesting to hear you tie all that together, and to talk about like, it makes me want to be here, because I have to say that one of the top conversations that I have with coaching clients, like leadership coaching clients, is around, how do I motivate people? Like, well, there's this theory called Self Determination Theory, and a lot of what you just mentioned ties into Self Determination Theory and motivation and so, like, this is stuff people are dealing with day to day. And when people say, like, oh, belonging. Like, I don't know, that sounds like soft stuff, or that sounds like, Oh, we're here to do work like this isn't family. We're here as colleagues to like, execute like this is like, table stakes, man. This is the guts of how you actually have a group of people focused on one thing and work together to do it. So...
Andrea Carter:
Absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. And I appreciate that you've said that as well Erica, because that's I would say it's one of my biggest pet peeves, is that people hear that word belonging, and they automatically associate it to soft skill, when really, if you look at the data and the research and the validation that we have amassed over I know in a lot of my bios, it says 100,000 employees. We're now closer to 200,000 employees across eight different industries where we're closing these gaps by 23% on average over two years. There aren't too many people that can say that they're doing that right now. And so one of the things that we're doing that's very different is we're using these five indicators to change the way that we're actually showing up for each other. So DEI, in a lot of ways, the way, it's not that DEI was bad, it's not that we don't need DEI. DEI measures completely different things than belonging. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that when you look at how DEI was initially launched, a lot of it actually created polarization because it isolated and created more divisive language than it actually did bring people together. And so when we look at the indicators of belonging, they actually shift the conversation. Imagine it's like the bridge that you bring together between your culture and your DEI work, and those metrics never actually, they correlated, but they didn't necessarily have causation. We're now showing that there is causation with belonging. So if we look at comfort, for example, the organizational clarity around expectations, around role, definition, around what the competencies are even required in order for somebody to be successful in that role. So this indicator, when it's used correctly, tells us is the environment designed to set people up for success? Or is it actually leaving them guessing with what's expected, and they're kind of holding out for these telltale signs from someone we don't necessarily know who, who's going to be accountable for results when we look at connection that's looking at, you know, are we deliberately cultivating relationships, authentic interaction, mutual support, shared purpose within teams? So this indicator will actually tell us if the team and the leader are actively building those bridges for new people to belong, or whether we're just expecting them to figure it out and navigate their social political landscape on their own, which is more of a fitting in type of you know value, if you will, contribution is looking at the team and the organizational practices specifically on not just the surface, but are people being recognized for what they're contributing? That doesn't necessarily mean the end result, It means how they're showing up day in and day out. Are we actually leveraging each person's unique skills, perspectives and efforts, or are other things happening? So some of the other things that happen are, you know, somebody shares a perspective and it's stolen by somebody else on the team as theirs, or perhaps the leader steals the information and passes it along to leaders as their own. So this indicator really gives us the pathways of whether or not people are being valued and whether they're being seen for what they're doing, or whether the systems are only actually looking at certain voices, certain styles, certain backgrounds, psychological safety, on the other hand, that's looking at all of the team norms, that's looking at leadership behaviors, organizational responses, that's looking at your feedback, whether you're giving or receiving it, and so if Your people can actually speak up, take risks, make mistakes, right, challenge ideas without negative consequences. This indicator really tells us if we've built a culture where dissent and questions are welcomed, or whether people have learned Don't say a word, it's way safer to be quiet than to be honest. And then the last is well being so the policies, practices, workload, design, and then specifically cultural norms. So are we actually actively promoting and sustaining people's mental, physical and emotional health, or are we just taking everything that we can and burning them out from the minute they get into the organization. So the in this indicator specifically will help us understand if our environment is structured for support, and what I mean by that is sustainable performance, right? Are we creating sustainable performance over time, year over year, or are we burning people out and calling it a high performance culture?
Erica D'Eramo:
Yeah. So what do we do with that information? How do we how do we take those five components and and turn that into workplace belonging?
Andrea Carter:
Yeah. So the first element that I always say that we need to ensure that we get right is that we have this 100% responsibility trap. And what that means is that often, when we've hired somebody into an organization, they start and we put 100% expectation on them to fit in, to figure out the unwritten rules, to decode the culture, to build their own relationships, to prove their value, and when they struggle, we blame them for not being a culture fit with belonging. One of the elements, the undercurrents here is that the team, the leader, each of your colleagues, also have to own 50% accountability for that person's belonging and that person's success. So when someone struggles, the team can use those five indicators as a diagnostic tool. Is there comfort? Does the new person actually understand, if they're clear about what success looks like, for example, connection, have we actively included them? Have we built bridges? Are we getting to know them? Are we getting to know what is important to them and what is important to our our team, to move forward and create from a contribution perspective, have we created space for their unique value? You know, often people are hired in to disrupt, and then what happens is that, because the leader doesn't actually indicate to the team, this person is here to disrupt, this person here is here to shake up how we're thinking. Because while what was working five years ago, three years ago, this year, it's not going to work moving forward. We need new thinking. We need new people coming in. But often that new person coming in has this burden of proof that if they are meant to only fit in and go along with the norms of the team, then they can't actually do their job, and nobody is actually supporting that ability for everyone to lean into that belonging, accountability. So the element to shift from Why can't you fit in to where are we failing to help you belong? That's a critical question that we have to start asking, because shared accountability means that belonging isn't something that people have to earn or fight for. It's something that we build together, systematically, measurably every single day.
Erica D'Eramo:
So if you're a leader in an organization that is faced with tackling this, what, how do you suggest leaders start to visualize this approach? It like, what's the framework that's most helpful?
Andrea Carter:
Yeah, so the first thing that I always recommend is actually measuring some of these belonging indicators, but when you don't have a survey to be able to actually do that, start by just looking at some of the spaces where your team or someone on your team, is struggling. So think about who's the person that's super burned out, who's the person who's disengaged, who's the person who keeps making mistakes, and what is the organization's response to that person? So are you sending them for resilience training, if somebody is burnt out, are you giving them access to a meditation app? Are you offering them a wellness stipend? And look, I'm not against any of those things, but here's the problem, if you have an employee who is burnt out, and we're asking individuals to build resilience inside systems that are actually breaking them down, then the research is actually really clear, you actually can't recover individual resilience tools without addressing the environment, because it takes people longer to recover, and they have less capacity to do so. And so that would be one of the things that we're seeing a lot of right now, that organizing. Situations are leaning into giving people more to do, rather than actually looking what are we doing for these people? Does that make sense?
Erica D'Eramo:
Yeah, there's a meme that's, like, quite popular around Are you experiencing, like, a systemic issue? Have you tried an individual response or individual solution to it. You know, just this is one of the reasons I just despise the narrative around resilience.
Andrea Carter:
Agreed, I completely agree, because you can't actually be resilient if you don't have the environment that is supporting you or helping fix the culture. So we hear all of these sayings like, oh, Erica, just be more resilient, or just figure out the culture, or build a thicker skin, or go do a meditation app. And you know, when we hear those things, you're essentially just putting the blame back on the individual, rather than actually looking at what you're doing in that space to create that element. So did you actually give them clarity about what's expected start there? That is a number one question that you should be asking with every single new hire, as well as every single new member that's coming on to your team, or if you've had a change, maybe there's been a reorg. Maybe you have, you know, employees that have switched teams, give them clarity about what is actually changing and what is now expected of them. And if you don't necessarily know all of the details, start with what you do know, because in order for you to give a person's brain the ability for them to feel calm and to start taking action, we actually need to be clear on what it is that we're meant to do and deliver. And so if we're not starting there from that comfort element, it's really hard for people to get comfortable and feel at ease so that they can do their best work. So you have a lot of people who, at the beginning of, you know, a team interaction, aren't actually even set up for, you know, being productive or being efficient or being motivated. And so when we look about that clarity, that clarity actually is super important for them, being able to get started. Think about team meetings and team and the agenda that goes into that. How many meetings are started without an agenda, not having that simple clarity is something that really impacts many people and impacts neurodivergent people, even more, which, by 2040, half of our workforce is meant to be ADHD, or some form of neurodivergent. So when we think about these things, and we're not creating spaces and we're not creating infrastructure to actually set people up for success, that's a problem.
Erica D'Eramo:
So what happens when folks don't get this right? What's the what does it look like?
Andrea Carter:
Yeah. So typically, we see companies struggling when it comes to this work for many reasons. The biggest pattern that I see is what I would call the checkbox belonging, and this is where, you know, organizations are treating belonging like a compliance list, similar to what they did with DEI, you know, they'll launch an ERG. They did diversity training. They celebrated Pride Month. You know, check, check, check. And when they're confused, then nothing actually changes, right? So here's the thing, you can have all the initiatives in the world, but if your day to day systems stay the same, and you're not weaving these five indicators into how you're supporting people, you're just going through the motions. And so let me give you a couple of examples of you know, where this shows up. Let's take the DEI element first, because it's a really easy one for us to think of. So this is, you know, where we take a celebration without accountability. So I see this one constantly organizations celebrate heritage months, which is excellent, yay, good. But at the same time, there's a people leader who constantly talks over certain people in meetings, steals recognition for, you know, work someone else has done, and claims it as their own. Or culture fit is code for the person who looks like us, that went to the same school as us, who talks like us. So the surface stuff is there, but the toxic behaviors, those are the behaviors that remain untouched, because people aren't actually accountable for making somebody else's comfort important or making somebody else's connection important. When we look at. Another example would be, you know, the diversity, or, sorry, the disability or the neurodivergent blind spot. So this one is a huge frustration. One in four adults has a disability in the US, and it's one in five in Canada. So that's the largest underserved demographic in the workplace right now, but belonging initiatives completely ignore disability and inclusion. And actually, in Canada, we've now changed the acronym to IDEA, rather than DEI, to ensure that accessibility is added on to the acronym. So what this means is we're not talking about accommodations as an afterthought or a prior plan. We're talking about it as an afterthought. We're not designing meetings, communication, advancements for opportunities with disability in mind from the start. So when we wonder, then you know, why don't our disabled employees feel like they belong? Well, a lot of it is because we haven't actually included them in the conversation to start with, and we haven't preemptively thought about where we might be. You know, really not even creating the conditions for them to feel comfortable within the space that they're in. One of my favorite examples of this was actually a leader who we had talked about disability as a big overhaul in the organization, and she was like, No, Andrea, I'm doing everything right. Like, I promise you we have this covered. And then she broke her foot, and then while she was trying to take care of herself, she broke her other foot, and so she was then in a wheelchair. And from a disability perspective, she couldn't even get into her own building at first, because the ramp that they had installed wasn't actually wide enough for the wheelchair. And then when they finally got her into the building, the meeting rooms that she was meant to get to, she couldn't get into because the doors weren't wide enough. So these are all you know, I'm speaking about it from like a physical perspective. But when we look at that, the elements where we're not creating or looking at things through that comfort lens or the connection lens. We don't actually then design places where somebody can be at their best to contribute. The newest one that I see all the time now is AI implementation without Co creation. What I mean by that is we're seeing companies roll out AI systems that fundamentally change how people work, and what's happening is that they're doing it to people, not with people. And what I mean by that is that there's no input, there's no collaboration. It's just here's the new system. Go adapt, and they're shocked. Then when trust collapses, they're, you know, shocked that productivity drops, but you've just told people that their contribution doesn't matter because you haven't actually included them in the whole process, from your pre planning to your launch to your post launch, and looking at all of the stages of rolling out something new. So change management is the same as you know, AI implementation, but we are destroying belonging overnight when we're not actually looking at those five indicators and integrating them as questions into each stage of building. Well, I have a really great Substack that I've just launched, and they can certainly check it out on the Substack, which is called belonging first rethink culture, and the URL is just Andrea D Carter, dot sub stack.com, you can also check out my website, which is about to go through a nice, big revamp, which I'm excited about, because originally it was all of our research that was shared on that website, so Belongingfirst.com and it's about to now go into more about how we help organizations, everything from the surveys that we administer and then analyze to actually doing leadership, support, coaching, consulting, and, you know, even some of the the customized work that we'll do for organizations,
Erica D'Eramo:
yeah, excellent. We will definitely include those in the show notes, and we'll include a link to your LinkedIn as well, in case people want to follow you there, and I'm sure that there's lots of evolving research on this front as you collect more and more data. So I really appreciate you sharing some of your insights with our audience and doing this work to help uncover what belonging really means and how folks can get it right.
Andrea Carter:
Thanks so much. Erica, it was a pleasure to be here.
Erica D'Eramo:
Yeah, thanks. And for our listeners, you can find a summary of today's episode and all of those notes, along with a full transcript if you want it on our website, so feel free to head over there, and we look forward to seeing you next episode.
