HRchat Podcast
Listen to the HRchat Podcast by HR Gazette to get insights and tips from HR leaders, influencers and tech experts. Topics covered include HR Tech, HR, AI, Leadership, Talent, Recruitment, Employee Engagement, Recognition, Wellness, DEI, and Company Culture.
Hosted by Bill Banham, Bob Goodwin, Pauline James, and other HR enthusiasts, the HRchat show publishes interviews with influencers, leaders, analysts, and those in the HR trenches 2-4 times each week.
The show is approaching 1000 episodes and past guests are from organizations including ADP, SAP, Ceridian, IBM, UPS, Deloitte Consulting LLP, Simon Sinek Inc, NASA, Gartner, SHRM, Government of Canada, Hacking HR, McLean & Company, UPS, Microsoft, Shopify, DisruptHR, McKinsey and Co, Virgin Pulse, Salesforce, Make-A-Wish Foundation, and Coca-Cola Beverages Company.
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Podcast Music Credit"Funky One"Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
HRchat Podcast
The Art of Learning and Development with David Hayden
In this episode of the HRchat show, Bill Banham is joined by David Hayden. David has a background in L&D, organisation design, recruitment and lean engineering.
David says has seen his profession move from traditional training functions to multi-digital approaches to learning and development.
David has contributed to CIPD content on L&D, including podcasts, research reports, factsheets, and member learning resources. He was employed by the CIPD for 10 years. He is also the co-author of two books: Adjacent Learning with Steve George and Learning and Development Practice in the Workplace with Kathy Beevers and Andrew Rae. He is currently putting the finishing touches to the next edition of L&D Practice in the Workplace with Kathy Beevers due for release in November 2025.
He currently works freelance, on the associate books for a few different organisations and is a Director at The Learning Network.
Questions for David include:
- With the vast array of L&D books on the market, why L&D Practice in the Workplace?
- What makes this version different from the previous 4 editions?
- How has AI impacted the L&D profession over the past few years?
- What advice would you give someone entering into the world of L&D?
- We all think there is a book inside of us, what are your tips on undertaking the writing process?
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Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom and visit.
Speaker 2:HRGazettecom. Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello listeners, this is your host today, bill Bannam, and joining me on this episode is my friend, david Hayden. David has a background in L&D, organizational design and development, recruitment and lean engineering spanning more years than he feels it should be. He has seen his profession move from traditional training functions to multi-digital approaches to learning and development, and he is passionate about how L&D addresses impact and transfer of learning and getting better at the data.
Speaker 2:David is also a director on the Learning Network board, along with myself, and I've had the pleasure to get to know him over the last few months. He currently works freelance on the associate books for a few different organisations and the marketing director for the Learning Network. David has contributed to CIPD content on L&D, including podcasts, research reports, fact sheets and member learning resources. He was employed by the CIPD for just shy of 10 years and he's the co-author of two books Adjacent Learning with Steve George and Learning and Development Practices in the Workplace with Kathy Beavers and Andrew Ray. Workplace with Cathy Beavers and Andrew Ray. David is currently putting the finishing touches to the next edition of L&D Practice in the Workplace with Cathy, due for release in November 2025, and that's going to be the main focus of today's conversation. David, welcome to the HR Chat Show. How are you doing today?
Speaker 3:Hello Bill, thanks for having me here today. I'm doing great. The sun's out today, so yeah, it's a good day.
Speaker 2:Yes, we are recording this interview at the very end of March. The sun is shining, spring is here. David and I are both in very good moods. David, beyond my way introduction just a second ago. Why don't you take a minute or two and fill our listeners in on anything I have missed? Tell them a bit about yourself, your career background and what gets you up in the morning.
Speaker 3:Oh, what gets me up in the morning. So one of the things I love about my job is you get to talk about learning with learning and development people. So it's just you know days are filled with really enriching conversation, so you never know where the conversation is going to go. And one of the things I love about learning and development is there's always more to learn and so, yeah, that keeps the spark going.
Speaker 4:This episode of the HR Chat podcast is supported by MyStaffShop, the UK's only employee-owned employee benefit provider. We provide a range of competitive and flexible employee benefit solutions to help you improve your employee value proposition, from exclusive deals and discounts to help your people stretch their salaries to effective reward and recognition programmes and a comprehensive health and wellbeing offering. We pride ourselves on our friendly and collaborative way of working, putting the interest of our clients at the heart of everything we do. Learn more at mystaffshopcom. Thanks, and now back to the HR Chat Show.
Speaker 2:And that's what gets you up in the morning the fact that you get all these wonderful conversations and you're learning new things every day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:Very good, very good. What gets me up in the morning is my alarm clock, okay. So, uh, with the vast array, david, of lmd books on the market, why lmd practice in the workplace?
Speaker 3:okay, yeah, really good question. So, um, learning about practicing the workplace is, um, the going to be the companion book for the CIPD level five qualification. So its primary audience is those people who are studying that qualification, to help them work through the standards and give some real kind of evidence based practical insights to the qualification units. The other differentiator it's looking at learning and development through more of a positive lens. So some of the books that are on the marketplace around learning and development actually have quite a negative connotation of what's going on and and and yes, you know kind of in some, in some areas, there's a lot learning and development can do to to make itself better. But actually there's a lot of practitioners out there doing some really really good stuff, quietly getting on with it and and what we've been able to do is is showcase and highlight some of those individuals through case studies or mini contributions to the book.
Speaker 5:Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at HRGazettecom.
Speaker 3:And now back to the show Learn more at hrgazettecom. And now back to the show. What makes this version different from the previous four editions? Why should people be laying it to try and get the fifth edition? So I mentioned it was linked to the Level 5 qualification in the CRPD. The previous four editions, which I got on board on the fourth edition, cassie and Andrew asked me to join them on the fourth edition. The previous editions were all geared up to the old Level 3 qualification. So this book has got a little bit more of a strategic lens. The previous books had that, but it was more geared up to the practical element of the learning cycle.
Speaker 3:The book split into three parts and the first part is one of the areas where, if people have seen the earlier editions, they'll notice a big difference. So it looks at not only being a professional, not only kind of things like continuing professional development, but also it really emphasizes the organization context that learning and development is operating within, and, and so those areas have been really heightened in in this in this edition. The second area is that traditional learning cycle. So looking at the things you'd expect learning needs analysis, design, delivery and evaluation with a bit of coaching in there. It breaks down the formal and informal aspects, but what is interesting in this edition that we've been able to do and to explore?
Speaker 3:The fourth edition was written in you know it's written in the winter of 2018, the spring of 2019, published late 2019. And a lot happened, sort of early 2020 to change the world, so, and then 2022, there was a launch of ChatGPT. So we've been able to incorporate lessons learned from that shift to a lot of online learning in in the early 2020 and just what ai has done for learning and development. So they're two big things that are very, very different as well.
Speaker 3:And then the third section is is we've got a. The title of this edition is actually going to be learning development practice in the workplace the complete guide, which put both Kathy and me in a state of nerves. It's like, oh, when I've said there's always more to learn. How can this be the complete guide? But what we've got as a third section, a much smaller section, is a list of further resources and and and spaces that people can explore beyond the realms of the qualification. That will take them to a number of different places, depending on their interests. So that, in a nutshell, is some of the big differences.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you. Let's just pick you up on one thing you mentioned there, and that's the impact of generative technologies. You mentioned chat, gpt as an example on the ways that people learn and on the L&D profession. Without giving away everything in the book, david, can you break that down for us a bit more? What? What's changed due to the onset of ai?
Speaker 3:so um, I think nearly everyone I know nearly every chapter um around that learning cycle. We've included a section of where ai has used AI to do a big data mining set of a range of different professions. So the case study is an organization that has a number of different professions working for it, so finance, purchasing, hr and so on and so on. Some elements of social work as well. Um and the, the, the, the lnd manager there used chat, gpt to do a search of. Look what are the, what are the key skills that each of those professional bodies are advocating? Um practitioners need so, instead of doing lots and lots of individual cold research, they were able to do a first, use ai, harvest all that data and then work through that um, so saving themselves loads and loads of time. So that's one aspect. Um coaching and mentoring we've got chapter on coaching and mentoring um and the advances in um coaching and ai we've obviously included in that.
Speaker 2:So there are a couple of tasters um along the way where we've used that okay, thank you, and if you want more details, you just have to buy the book when it comes out in november. David, what advice, david, would you have, uh, for someone entering into the world of L&D in 2025? And how do you think the book could help them?
Speaker 3:So, when I think to my first exposure in what is now called learning and development, my first exposure was with a group of youth training placements back in the late 80s and very early 90s and it was predominantly delivering training. So you know, for a big chunk of my career delivering training, throwing content at people, career delivering training, throwing content at people and, um, you know now in reflection, having my fingers crossed behind my back, that some of that content would land and people would do something with that content. In 2025, learning development profession is is much broader. There are a lot of different roles that you can, um, you you can build on to say you're a learning development practitioner or even a learning development professional. So it's not just about standing in front of a group of people sharing some content.
Speaker 3:You can be, of course, a coordinator. You can be a designer, an instructional designer. You can be a data analyst and looking at where data can feed into the learning needs analysis phase or where it can feed into the evaluation and impact phase, and you can be. You can, of course, deliver training. You can do that remotely, you can do that with groups and I can specialize in one of the digital technologies. So in the book we talk about things like podcasts, we talk about e-portfolios, we talk about the infographics, all those kinds of things which can build up a degree of competence, of practice and professionalism that can add lots of variety to the role rather than just oh, you work in lnd, so you're a trainer, okay, so, given some of the changes that you just mentioned, yeah, how can, how can this book remain current, remain relevant in, say, three years or maybe 10 years time?
Speaker 2:you mentioned the last edition was, uh, released back in 2019 and, as you, as you said, there are lots changed since then. Is it even possible for this to be relevant in in a few years time?
Speaker 3:yeah, and and that's something really really conscious of. So, um, one, one of the things, one of the things that I'm I'm very much aware of, is those people who fund themselves through through their study, or are just kind of really keen to get hold of good quality material but maybe out of date. So, you know, someone may be getting a very early edition of the book and see some things in there what we know are not quite credible now. So, very conscious of as we've written've written that to get people who are reading it thinking around oh, actually this was written in 2025, what's changed? So that first bit about what does it mean to be a professional? You're continuing professional development, keeping yourself up to date and being clear about the organisation context. All those really are leading up to the reader to say, look, you might be studying a qualification or you might be reading this cold, but actually there, there will be more, there'll be stuff coming along that we, we possibly don't know about.
Speaker 3:So so the book is written in a way that sets people up. This isn't just it. There's, there's always going to be more to learn and more to build in. We talk about evidence base and keep the evidence base up to date. So just because it's in a book written in 2025 doesn't necessarily mean that's going to be up to date in three, five years time. So it's like, yeah, I need to check. We're encouraging people to check and keep up to date beyond the lifespan of the book.
Speaker 2:Okay, so as someone who is a successful author of several books, david, it would be remiss of me not to ask you what are your tips for those who are thinking about undertaking in the process of writing their own book. You know, we all think that we've got a book in us. Uh, what are your tips for those people who want to make that a reality? Is it, for example, use chat.
Speaker 3:Gpt can write it for you well, you know, there might be a whole new niche of books that have been that have been co-authored by chat gpt. I'm just thinking about that, you know, because I've got there's one idea I've got for a future book and it's like could the author be David Hayden and ChatGPT, or even ChatGPT and David Hayden, depending on that? But I think, in terms of what advice I was given, I've had two very different experiences. So the experience with learning and development practice in the workplace is building on previous editions, so standing on the shoulders of the work that Cathy with learning development practice in the workplace is building on previous editions, so standing on the shoulders of the work that Cathy and Andrew did in the early editions. And then it's just been Cathy and myself updating this book. So we're not stuck with a blank sheet of paper. However, adjacent learning with Steve George, we did start from a blank sheet of paper when we did that. So two very different approaches.
Speaker 3:Adjacent learning actually started life as a series of blogs and I think that helped both of us a lot in terms of not being overwhelmed when we got the contract from K, from kogan page to um to write the book and they said it was 75 to 80 000 words. It's like whoa. But when we, when We've got a number of blogs written already, each roughly of 1,000 to 1,500 words, we were able to follow that format. So one top tip is don't be overwhelmed by the wording. Obviously, go for it. That's my top top tip. If you think you've got a book in, you then know, can follow that train of thought. Um, break it down into a series of blog-like elements and, and I think that keeps the, the reader interested as well, it kind of makes it a little bit more punchy.
Speaker 3:Um, the other, the other thing is um, be prepared for um, an editor, to do their job. Job, because you know that there is, I think we've got about 20,000 words that didn't make it to adjacent learning, which you know some of it was like that's really good stuff, I wish that was in the book and it's like no, the editor was like no, there's a reason why it's not in the book, david. So, um, so yeah, so, um, be prepared to be edited and let the editor do do their job. There's a reason why they're the editor and not the author.
Speaker 3:Um, and you know, I would, I would say, find find a rhythm to to do in the actual writing. So at the time we wrote that, um, I was still commuting a fair bit, so I I used utilize my train journey, which, which you know, then meant it didn't impact on other aspects of my life, but find a rhythm to it and don't expect to have a retirement package with it, because the royalties, the royalties are not huge. You might you definitely won't get a retirement package. If you're lucky, you might get an annual weekend away. Um, if, if you're very lucky, but yeah, so yeah, then go for it.
Speaker 2:But you know, healthy dose of realism along the way okay, we are already coming towards the end of this particular conversation. Two more questions for you before we wrap up. Uh, next one I mentioned in the intro that you and I are both on the board of the learning network, so, uh, let's just have a bit of a shout out. Give some love to the network for a moment. Can you, in 60 seconds or less I'm going to challenge you 60 seconds or less david can you tell our listeners a bit about the learning network, what it does and how it helps the L&D?
Speaker 3:profession? Absolutely so. The learning network it does what it says on the tin. It's it's. It's there for members to connect with each other and, as as directors of the um, of the of the network, we are responsible for making sure we're putting on events and and circulating information that will help L l d practitioners connect and be better at their practice.
Speaker 2:Off 29 quid at the minute, yeah okay, you had many, many seconds to spare. Good work and just finally for today. David, how can folks connect with you and learn more about what you get up to? And, of course, um, put in their pre-orders for this amazing book coming out in november, thank you.
Speaker 3:So pre-orders will be on kogan page at some point, uh. But yeah, you can find me um on linkedin. Um, or you can drop me a line at david, at talentdeliverscouk or um. Find me on blue sky. I am by. By the time this podcast comes out. I aim to be more regular on Blue Sky. I'm just developing my Blue Sky strategy at this moment in time, so by the time the podcast comes out I should have got into a rhythm with that.
Speaker 2:For me, my Blue Sky strategy is I always wear sunglasses. David, that just leaves me to say for today Thank you very much for being my guest.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Bill. Thank you, Bill. Thank you, Bill, for the opportunity. Enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 2:And listeners as always. Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work? Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom.
