HRchat Podcast
Listen to the HRchat Podcast by HR Gazette to get insights and tips from HR leaders, influencers and tech experts. Topics covered include HR Tech, HR, AI, Leadership, Talent, Recruitment, Employee Engagement, Recognition, Wellness, DEI, and Company Culture.
Hosted by Bill Banham, Bob Goodwin, Pauline James, and other HR enthusiasts, the HRchat show publishes interviews with influencers, leaders, analysts, and those in the HR trenches 2-4 times each week.
The show is approaching 1000 episodes and past guests are from organizations including ADP, SAP, Ceridian, IBM, UPS, Deloitte Consulting LLP, Simon Sinek Inc, NASA, Gartner, SHRM, Government of Canada, Hacking HR, McLean & Company, UPS, Microsoft, Shopify, DisruptHR, McKinsey and Co, Virgin Pulse, Salesforce, Make-A-Wish Foundation, and Coca-Cola Beverages Company.
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Podcast Music Credit"Funky One"Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
HRchat Podcast
Navigating Your Next HCM Tech Purchase with Jacqueline Kuhn and Priscilla Redd Sparrow
The human element of HR technology is often overlooked in favor of features and functions but, as our latest HRchat episode reveals, successful HCM technology implementation hinges on strategic alignment with business goals and effective change management.
Jacqueline Kuhn and Priscilla Redd Sparrow, two of the four authors of the newly updated second edition of HRchitect’s Guide to HCM Technology: What You Need to Know Before Your Next HCM Technology Purchase, share crucial insights that challenge conventional thinking about HR technology investments. The most striking revelation? Many HR leaders still position technology as a departmental efficiency tool rather than what it should be – a strategic business asset that puts critical information in decision-makers' hands.
When evaluating potential vendors, beware of representatives who dance around direct questions or offer superficial change management support disguised as comprehensive solutions. As Priscilla explains, effective change management goes far beyond basic communication and training, requiring dedicated resources and a structured approach that engages employees throughout the implementation journey. Organizations must recognize that real change begins at go-live, not ends there, with different individuals adapting at varying paces.
The AI revolution has made HCM systems more user-friendly for practitioners, but its effectiveness depends entirely on data quality. Organizations must ensure clean, comprehensive data structures and move away from manual spreadsheet processes that undermine AI-driven insights. Regardless of company size, powerful tools are now accessible at various price points – the key is understanding your specific needs and selecting appropriate solutions.
Perhaps most importantly, HR professionals must embrace this guiding principle: "AI isn't going to replace you, but if you're not using AI, you will be replaced by someone who is." With insufficient resources and poor planning ranking as the top reasons technology projects fail, strategic investment in consulting support often makes the difference between success and failure. Remember that purchasing and implementing technology is just the beginning – the real value emerges through effective utilization and maintenance over time.
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Speaker 2:To truly support both the business and its people, organisations need the right HCM tech in place tools that help teams run smoothly and stay aligned with employee needs. Hey, this is Bill Bannam, host of this episode, and in this episode of the HR Chat Pod, I sit down with Jacqueline Kuhn and Priscilla Sparrow, two of the authors behind the newly updated second edition of HRchitect's Guide to HCM Technology what you need to know before your next HCM technology purchase. We'll dive into the practical side of HCM tech, including how to take your knowledge and turn it into real world impact. If you're thinking about your next tech investment, this conversation will give you inspiration and guidance on building your HR service delivery model, crafting an HCM strategy, evaluating systems, managing implementation and knowing what to expect after. Go live. Jacqueline and Priscilla.
Speaker 2:It's my pleasure to welcome you to the show today. Jacqueline's been on the show before. It's nice to get to hang out with you again. Priscilla, this is your first time, so, as as we mentioned before, we hit record, we're going to go easy on you, don't worry about that. The first question I've got I'd like to ask of both of you Jacqueline, perhaps you'd like to go first on this one and then Priscilla, if you've got anything you'd like to add off to that, that would be great, and that's around the the book and the purpose of the book. This is the second edition, of course. What's changed, I guess, is the main question there and as part of that, what, what gaps in the market or common pitfalls were you hoping to address for HR pros in this updated edition?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's been almost four years since the last edition and a lot has changed, particularly the emergence of AI has just proliferated HR and that there's now a whole new whole chapter on AI and HR and what an HR professional needs to know.
Speaker 3:And that's you know, four years is a long time for a technology book to to be sitting on a shelf because tech changes so quickly. So we decided that now was the time to dust it off and update it. And really the whole purpose of the book is to educate the buyer, educate the HR technology HCM buyer, to help them think about the things that they need to know before making a purchase. It's really a quick I always call it an airplane read right, it's not a novel, it's a novella, but you know it. Just it's a little longer than the last book because there's more content, but that's the big thing. And then Priscilla joined the team since the last book was published and she's a certified change management professional. So one of the other reasons for publishing the book is to put our new and improved methodology and her take on what HR professionals need to know about change management.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. So it sounds like, priscilla, you're a great addition to the team. What would you like to add there to that answer?
Speaker 4:Yes. So just again, just kind of thinking about the role of HR professionals and how critical that role would be to effective change management. When you really think about the HR professional or the HR team and how they are uniquely positioned in the organization, they already understand those teams from really the top down and so engaging them in the change management methodology, the approach, especially for an HCM implementation where we specialize, you know they can really speak to the needs, they are already positioned to effectively communicate and so we really want them to understand how valuable their role would be in the success of the implementation or change initiative.
Speaker 5:Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at HRGazettecom. And now back to the show.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. Thank you, priscilla. Just a quick follow-up for you there, if you don't mind, based on something that Jacqueline said in her answer and that's you guys have added a whole section around the impact of ai. Uh, and I was at hr tech last year in vegas everything is labeled ai powered this, ai fueled that and ai is very much part of the public consciousness now. Um, I got on board a few years ago. Now I run a bunch of ai and hr related events, primarily in the UK. How much has AI really changed the HR tech stack over the past specifically four years? We're talking four years now since the last edition. Is it really that dramatic? What functions have been dramatically changed in those years? Or actually is it just a continuation of something we saw five, six, seven years ago?
Speaker 3:So I guess I'll take that and I wouldn't say it has dramatically changed the HCM tech stack. What it has done is make it more HR user friendly right. The assistants are probably a little more polished. They work a little bit better, not as generic as they used to be. The reporting and insights you can get have been refined a little bit. So I think it's more of a. The capabilities are now more usable by a practitioner and you don't need to be a techno wizard to really leverage it.
Speaker 2:To me, that's the biggest change is is it's now usable yeah, for example, um, we we work with a lot of people at our events, uh, who promote no code ai, and it just seems to be far more user friendly today than it was just a few years ago. Um, okay, uh, jacqueline, for you the. The title of the book hints at being a roadmap for buyers. Of course, what's the biggest misconception that HR leaders still have when approaching their next HCM technology purchase?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they still believe that the technology is for their departments to be more effective. I cannot believe that in the year 2025, they haven't thought of it as a tool for the business to manage their people assets. It floors me how many leaders we get in front of and their whole business case is about making themselves more efficient and effective, and that is not what HCM technology does today. Hcm technology is all about putting information in the hands of decision makers who can make better decisions because they know their people, and I think we kind of beefed up some of the language around that in this version of the book because I do not believe the HR world has completely and fully grasped that concept. They understand the importance of putting information in the employees' hands, but we still see HR leaders afraid of putting information in the manager hands the HR leaders afraid of putting information in the manager hands.
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Speaker 2:Learn more at DisruptHRco. Okay, thank you. And then when it comes to strategy and readiness, Jacqueline, you talk about aligning HCM strategies with the C-suite. This is an ongoing discussion that we have on this show about how HR leaders can have a place at the top table. What are some tips for HR leaders who want to better position themselves as a strategic partner during HCM tech planning?
Speaker 3:I always say follow the money, know how your organization makes money, know how the roles in your organization affect that and make sure that you have the right talent, the right development, the right processes in place so that those roles can do their jobs and help make money. I mean, that is what HR tends to miss. The strategic value of the HCM is those key roles that drive the top and bottom line need to be nurtured and developed and recruited and you get strong players and you people who can make a difference and and now your seat at the table is stronger because you have impacted the top and bottom line next question maybe it's for Jacqueline, maybe it's for Priscilla, maybe it's for both.
Speaker 2:Uh, it's on evolution and selection. I wonder if one or both of you can suggest one or two red flags that HR pros should look for during the evaluation and vendor selection process that may signal future headaches post implementation.
Speaker 3:I'll take a first crack at that, speaking with a potential software vendor and you ask them a question directly and they dance around the answer. You do not get a clear answer. It is not acceptable. You should get an answer to your question and I think that there are a lot of. There are great salespeople who will be direct and say no, we don't do that. But it's when you have a salesperson more interested in selling the product than making sure they make the right sale, where they're going to dance around and people buy products that won't work for them.
Speaker 3:And I think that a piece in the book really talks about how technology today works. I mean, it does work. Whether or not it works for you is what you have to figure out, and if you're talking with a vendor who isn't answering your questions to your satisfaction, it's time to break that relationship, because if it can't work for you, then it's not going to be a good, a good buy. I think the other red flag and I will let Priscilla talk about this, because this directly impacts change management is when the vendor says oh, yeah, we have full change management and they actually have a 10 slide PowerPoint. Priscilla, talk about that red flag.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely so. You know, it's just the misconceptions of what change management really means and what it really looks like from an from a change initiative standpoint. Oftentimes we hear, yeah, we want to communicate and we want to make sure that we have good training, but it's so much more than that and when we really think about, you know, employee engagement or employee experience that are often one of the project outcomes on these implementations of the project outcomes on these implementations, it's really about how do we engage them early on, giving them opportunities for that two-way feedback, assessing that change readiness along the way, and so that's always a little bit of a red flag to me when they don't really understand what change management really should look like, even from a dedicated resource perspective, and all of the work and the effort that we need to put in to be successful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because vendors actually, when they try to sell product, try to downplay the amount of effort it takes to implement um and and literally hand people a 12 page powerpoint here. Here's your change management and and of course that's going to fail just to follow up to that.
Speaker 2:Then, uh, to one or both of you you guys, you guys pick. But uh, this is the second edition. Now, you've got always wonderful updated information in there. How are you, how are you collecting your data? How are you keeping relevant? How are you keeping current? What are you? What are you doing for that? So what, what are those conversations with vendors look like? For example, is that demos? Are you having conversations on the expo floors? Uh, are you doing, uh, co-authored research with other folks around this? Tell us a bit more about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's all of the above we have. Well, because we issue so many RFPs a year, we probably see the top eight to 10 vendors six or seven times a year anyway, because we're just in the RFP process and even outside of that, once a quarter usually we take an hour meeting, understand the roadmap. We go to HR tech, we read all the news wires. We have a membership in something here in the US called the Advisor Collective. That's other people like us who all we have our own little association of people who do strategic consulting and we share information as well. We share you know who's performing, who isn't. What did they learn about a vendor that they didn't know? That was like hidden deeply. So we've created our own little network of people who also has information and in that way we tend we have about 500 detailed requirements on every vendor and whether or not they meet them across the whole HR spectrum.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and for the change management side, I mean, some of the things that I do to stay current is, you know, that constant kind of research, networking around the latest trends. So I'm certified in this change management space a member of, you know, the Florida chapter here and also locally staying engaged, certainly, with other professionals and practitioners. So locally staying engaged, certainly with other professionals and practitioners, just you know what are the, the, the trends currently, what's up and coming and really learning from those who also have have experience of what's working well in this industry is also. I've been a practitioner now for a little over a decade and so it's when you think about how often and rapid things continue to change, especially in the technology space, there's certainly always room for growth and learning, so I try to stay plugged in.
Speaker 2:Excellent, and I think I heard that from Jacqueline. You have 500 different types of criteria that you're judging these vendors on. Is that right? Yes, that's pretty comprehensive. Very good, very good, priscilla. Uh, let's talk about implementation and change management a bit more. Change management is, of course, your forte. It is, of course, your speciality. What's one of the biggest mistakes that organizations make during hcm implementation and what would be your top tip for ways that they can avoid that?
Speaker 4:It's just the kind of misconception of what does effective structured the implementation of change management really look like. I think that there's just some misconceptions around that. Really again, the work and the effort that we would need to put in to have an effective change management implementation but also having the dedicated resources. So as a consulting firm, you know we really partner with those internal resources to kind of just help be the face of change and to drive the activities, the planning around that and so just really trusting, you know, your partner in terms of the expertise, but just understanding as well that there's work to be done around this effective change management approach and so to have the resources that we need on hand to accomplish that is critical in that success.
Speaker 2:Okay, we are flying through this conversation, Jacqueline, for you. How do you see the role of AI? Let's talk more about AI. How do you see the role of AI continuing to shape HCM systems? What should HR pros be doing now to stay ahead and stay relevant in 12 months, 18 months, 24 months time?
Speaker 3:The way AI works is based on good data for the most part, right? If you don't have good data, the AI can't give you good answers and it all gets back to process and data. Make sure that before you start using you know agentic AI and creating insights, that your data is clean, that you have everything you need to answer your questions. So you can ask the AI a question, but if you're missing key parts of the information, you're not going to get a good answer. So it all goes back to the basics, right, I mean, there are just basics that technology can help with, but you have to have good data going in. I think the other thing is, when you go back to the, you know how to be strategic, follow the money, know what information you need that will make the biggest bang, right, that will make the biggest contribution. And make sure that you've got information that you're collecting, the information that you need to either make those predictions or give you know, give insights, etc. And so right now is really when you should be taking a look at anything you have on a spreadsheet. Anything that is not actually in an application that AI is using, you have to get it in there.
Speaker 3:So many organizations today download their HR information, augment it in Excel and then create reporting or dashboards outside of the HCM. That has to stop. You know, if your HCM can't do it, maybe you need to buy a third party reporting tool. You don't necessarily have to trash your entire HR payroll system. There are lots of really great reporting tools out there that can do it for you.
Speaker 3:So you really need to start by. What do I need to know that I don't know today. What am I compiling manually that you know the AI can do for me, and what questions should the C-suite be asking me about our people so that they can make good business decisions? And you know, make sure you've got that data dictionary and make sure if you are a global organization, it's a global data dictionary. Make sure that you take an inventory of everywhere you are around the world and you have the same information on people everywhere around the world. Ai is great, but if your data isn't good, it's the same old garbage in, garbage out we've been talking about for the past 30, 40 years.
Speaker 2:I did a Disrupt HR talk on exactly this and I had a garbage in, garbage out slide uh, just just a couple of months ago. Okay, so, in terms of being able to access the technology that folks need for you mentioned reporting tools and and to help with budgets, for example, jacqueline, is the technology now available to the to the smes as well as the big guys? It should there be nothing stopping the smaller companies from being able to access the level of analytics around their people compared to the big guys?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely, the tools in place today. There are enterprise-strength tools that are priced for SMEs. There are SME tools as well that are very good. So you know there's no. There's so much technology. There are so many apps out there. Size of organization is not a barrier to entry anymore. It's really, you know, understanding what you need, and that's where you know folks like us can come into play. We can, you know, ask what you need, and that's where you know folks like us can come into play. We can, you know, ask those probing questions and help you understand what it is you need and buy the appropriate tool for your needs and budget.
Speaker 2:There we go. There are solutions for all of you out there listeners. Priscilla, sometimes change takes time. What advice do you have for HR teams managing stakeholder expectations when results from new HCM systems aren't exactly immediately visible?
Speaker 4:yeah, absolutely, change definitely takes time and we often share and and reiterate that change really begins at go live when you think about implementations, and so that's really where the people who are impacted by the change really start to utilize those new business processes.
Speaker 4:You know the system that's been implemented and when you think about change management, it's really the people side. So it's the human reactions, whether they embrace, whether they're kind of moving a little slower through that change curve, but really keeping a pulse on how well those measures that we should always identify before we implement a change to be able to understand what is working, where we're hitting our targets and because, again, with the human aspects of of going through change, people are going to go through change at different rates, at different paces, and so to kind of take that patience to understand where they are will also help us to determine where to provide that additional support and to also again keep a pulse on um just how the people are moving through their own change curve and change experience. So it's that individual uh framework that we also often focus on uh to support them through their experience got that song in my head now changes.
Speaker 2:Uh, okay, two more questions for you, for both of you. Uh, priscilla, if you'd like to go first on this one, what's one actionable piece of advice you hope every reader and hr hr chat listener as well, of course takes away from from the book yeah, what I would really like for them to take away from the book is really thinking about how their organization is positioned to support change management currently.
Speaker 4:And if the experience level is not really there where they would like for it to be, don't hesitate to call on a partner to bring in that experience, that methodology, expert knowledge, to really help them establish a structured approach that is going to be, that is going to be put together for appropriate for their organization and their change initiative, so to kind of have that support and that partnership is really going to make a difference and go a long way. And Jacqueline, what about you?
Speaker 3:I have a couple of things. I think. The first thing is really understand that when you're buying new HCM technology, it is not about the purchase, it is not about the implementation, it is about living with it, sustainment and the care and feeding. I always use the analogy it's like buying a house the day you buy a house is the day it begins. Your life begins or ends, depending on how you look at it, or your pocketbook gets lighter. But it's not about the buying, it's about the using right, it's about the decorating, it's about everything you do with what you bought. So, really, when you read the book, I hope everybody understands that the purchase is just the beginning.
Speaker 3:The other thing and another real reason to add an entire chapter about AI is I was at Unleash last year and there was a quote where and I don't remember who said it, but the quote was AI isn't going to replace you. However, if you are not using AI, you will be replaced with someone who is. So understand the kinds of AI that's out there, how it can benefit you, how it can make your organization more efficient and effective, and begin to adopt it. Don't be the last one on your block to get AI. This is not the kind of thing to wait and see. So don't be the last person to adopt it and then make sure you budget for help, for consulting help.
Speaker 3:Not having enough time and resources is the number one reason projects fail. Not having proper planning is the number two reason projects fail. So, when you read the book, understand what it takes to buy, implement, care and feed your technology, and don't be afraid to buy supplemental resources for for all of that, because it is in that that you will, you know, really be successful. You don't have to build up your team, you don't have to have, you know, paid, paid wage earners to to make this happen. Outsource smart and strategically.
Speaker 2:And if you want to learn more about outsourcing smart, you should probably get in contact with Priscilla and with Jacqueline. So, with that, how can folks connect with you? Is that LinkedIn? Do you want to share your emails or are you all over the other socials? By the way, priscilla, I shot you a LinkedIn connection request about three minutes before our call today. And, of course, how can folks get a copy of the second edition of ebook?
Speaker 3:So yes, we are all over LinkedIn. It is my name Jacqueline Kuhn, or you can email me jkuhn at harchitectcom. The book is available today on Amazon. There is a Kindle as well as a paperback version, so if you aren't a reader but you like to listen to books while you're driving or working out, you can buy the Kindle version as well. That's probably the best way to get it. And, Priscilla, you're on LinkedIn.
Speaker 4:I am on LinkedIn as well. You can find me at Priscilla Red R-E-D-D Sparrow on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:red r-e-d-d sparrow on linkedin my email is p, as in priscilla sparrow, like the bird at h architect dot com, and it also sounds like folks can maybe meet you at various different events. Uh, jacqueline, you mentioned unleash just a moment ago. You also mentioned hr tech earlier on. I'm I can't make it to unleash america this, although one of our colleagues is going to be there, but I will be at HR Tech later this year, so we'll have to get together. Maybe we'll record an episode together on the shop's floor, so to speak.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we won't be at Unleash either, but we will be at HR Tech and Priscilla will be at the ACMP national meeting in Chicago in May. So any of you change people out there or HR people looking to change, she will be at that one in Chicago this May.
Speaker 2:Okay, even more ways to connect. Well, that just leaves me to say for today, jacqueline, lovely to chat to you again. Priscilla, great getting to know you for the first time, thank you.
Speaker 4:Absolutely Same here, bill. Thank you for having me have a great day everyone.
Speaker 1:And listeners as always. Until next time, happy working. Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work? Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom.
