HRchat Podcast
Listen to the HRchat Podcast by HR Gazette to get insights and tips from HR leaders, influencers and tech experts. Topics covered include HR Tech, HR, AI, Leadership, Talent, Recruitment, Employee Engagement, Recognition, Wellness, DEI, and Company Culture.
Hosted by Bill Banham, Pauline James, and other HR enthusiasts, the HRchat show publishes interviews with influencers, leaders, analysts, and those in the HR trenches 2-4 times each week.
The show is approaching 1000 episodes and past guests are from organizations including ADP, SAP, Ceridian, IBM, UPS, Deloitte Consulting LLP, Simon Sinek Inc, NASA, Gartner, SHRM, Government of Canada, Hacking HR, McLean & Company, UPS, Microsoft, Shopify, DisruptHR, McKinsey and Co, Virgin Pulse, Salesforce, Make-A-Wish Foundation, and Coca-Cola Beverages Company.
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Podcast Music Credit"Funky One"Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
HRchat Podcast
Addiction: How HR Can Champion Treatment and Recovery with Carrie Bates
Three-time Olympic gold medalist Carrie Bates isn't just celebrating over a decade of sobriety—she's revolutionizing how workplaces approach addiction recovery. As Director of Strategic Growth and Advocacy at Caron Treatment Centers, Carrie brings a powerful dual perspective to the conversation on substance dependence in professional environments.
Over 26 million Americans report struggling with addiction, with countless others suffering silently. Furthermore, 80% of people who abuse substances are employed. Yet stigma and fear of career consequences keep many from seeking help through their HR departments or employee assistance programs. This silence allows addiction to progress unchecked, affecting productivity, attendance, and overall culture.
Caron Treatment Centers stands out in the recovery landscape through its focus on brain health and neuro-restorative care. Using advanced technology like PET scans, they examine blood flow and neural activity, often discovering that patients have been misdiagnosed with conditions like ADHD or bipolar disorder. This neurological approach treats addiction as a medical condition rather than a moral failing—a crucial distinction for workplace policies.
In this discussion with Bill Banham, Carrie shares candidly about losing her career in sports marketing because of a lack of supportive recovery protocols. "There was no culture, no environment to which this was an acceptable conversation to have," she explains. This experience fuels her advocacy for HR policies that treat addiction with the same compassion as other medical conditions, including graduated return-to-work plans and appropriate accommodations.
Corporate culture often unwittingly excludes those in recovery through alcohol-centered events like "Thirsty Thursdays" and "Wine Wednesdays." Carrie doesn't suggest eliminating these traditions but recommends including appealing non-alcoholic options so everyone feels "a part of, rather than apart from" these important social experiences. For executives and high-profile individuals, Caron's Ocean Drive program offers specialized treatment that balances recovery needs with limited work responsibilities, addressing a major barrier to seeking help.
Ready to transform your workplace? Visit caron.org.com to learn more or connect with Carrie Bates on LinkedIn.
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Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom and visit hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for tuning in to this episode of the HR Chat Show. I'm your host today, bill Bannam, and in this episode we're going to consider the impact that substance dependence can have on a company's culture and what a recovery-friendly workplace actually means. Tune in as we also explore the challenges that HR pros face when trying to persuade wealthy and powerful individuals, such as CEOs, to pursue mental health and addiction treatment. My extremely inspiring guest today is Carrie Bates, a three-time Olympic gold medalist swimmer, recovering alcoholic and the new director of strategic growth and advocacy for Karen Treatment Centres. Carrie is celebrating more than 10 years of sobriety from alcoholism and she is passionate about what HR professionals must know now about the mental health of their employees. This is, listeners hands down, one of the most powerful conversations that I've had with a guest on the HR Chat Show and I very much hope that you find it useful. Carrie Bates, it's my pleasure to welcome you to the HR Chat Show today. How are you doing?
Speaker 3:I'm doing great, Bill. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for joining us, as we always like to do, on this show. Why don't you start by taking a minute or two and telling our listeners a bit more about yourself, your career background and what brought you to where you are today?
Speaker 3:My name is Carrie Bates and I'm currently the Director of Strategic Growth and Advocacy for Care and Treatment Centers, and I've been working in the recovery industry now for about the last decade, but really what brought me here was most of them. This is a second career for me. Most of my career was in the sports industry with some of the largest sports brands in the world, and that was based on my background as a three-time Olympic gold medalist in swimming, and I found my way into the recovery, addiction and recovery world through my own personal journey with addiction and recovery.
Speaker 2:I understand that Karen Treatment Centers are unique in focusing on brain health and neuro-restorative care. Can you tell us a wee bit more about that and why Karen is particularly unique in that space?
Speaker 3:Definitely. You know, karen in my mind, and one of the reasons that drew me to Karen personally was the advancements and the cutting edge technology that we're using on neuro restorative health. You know, it's really the first time that I've seen in a treatment environment that we're actually treating the afflicted organ, which is the brain, rather than just the symptoms of the disease, which is obviously the drinking and using of drugs. So, you know, through these brain scans, these FTP, pet scans, etc. What we're able to learn is what is going on with the brain. We're able to see blood flow in certain places, lack thereof. People are being misdiagnosed prior to coming in with anything from ADHD to bipolar disorder. And we're coming, we're finding through our technology and through the scans that in fact they don't have those things and discovering what they do have. So it's really in, it's really live and living color answers to what most of us that are seeking recovery are looking for. Why, why are we like this?
Speaker 2:OK, thank you. So this podcast obviously is geared towards HR leaders, business leaders and so on. Share some of the effects of addictions from from employees on on their productivity, on on, potentially, their colleagues and and overall on the company culture and and also perhaps as part of the answer. My sense is you don't become addicted overnight. It's something that can creep up over time. So maybe maybe those consequences are things that leaders should be aware of, as otherwise they can snowball. You know, maybe there are opportunities to help earlier on.
Speaker 3:For sure, and you know HR plays a really important role in the recovery process for people they can play and oftentimes we're not seeing that because there are so many people struggling with addiction that you know this is such a shame-based disease that people are afraid to talk about it in the work environment. They're afraid to go in and tell their HR departments or their EAPs that they need help because there's a lot of fear of losing their jobs and the stigma kind of around addiction. You know, I often say close your eyes and think about what's the first image that comes to your mind when you say alcoholic or drug addict. And typically for people it's what we all think of of the guy under the bridge with the brown paper bag and a bottle right. But what most of the world doesn't understand is that over 80% of people that abuse alcohol and illicit drugs are actually employed, and so what that tells us is that this is the great equalizer when it comes to work environments. This is not something that is strictly reserved for people that are houseless and living on the streets. This is affecting every family's life.
Speaker 3:Typically, that's in those work environments, and really HR can be the catalyst for people getting help and you're going to see that in their productivity for sure. I mean there are more missed days of work, more people showing up late for work. There are signs of problems going on and people typically just don't want to ask why and are you okay? Because behind that question is often an answer that scares people. When we're talking about behavioral health in general Right Mental health, addiction, alcoholism it's all under that behavioral health category, which can feel very scary for people to want to talk about. Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat podcast.
Speaker 2:If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette.
Speaker 3:Learn more at hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2:And now back to the show addictions you mentioned just a moment ago are in the workplace. I wonder if you can share any numbers around the percentage of folks in the general population who are fighting an addiction at the moment.
Speaker 3:Well, what we do know in the US is that we're looking at somewhere in the number of about 26 million people that are reporting, struggling with addiction. So if that many people are reporting, we can only surmise and guess that there's many, many more that are struggling that aren't talking about it right, and so it isn't of epidemic proportions here in the US for sure.
Speaker 2:If you'd be open to it, carrie, I'd love now to understand a little bit more about your personal journey. You mentioned earlier that there is a stigma, there is a shame attached with addictions. Lots of company policies say don't turn up to work drunk. So that's another reason why people are very hesitant to speak to their HR departments or their bosses. You know which is terrible if they need help, if they're not very well In your case, was there a moment where you realized that you needed? You needed help.
Speaker 3:Sure, you know, my moments of needing help were usually at someone else's suggestion. You know, unfortunately, this is a disease that is progressive, as you mentioned, it's incurable and it's fatal, one of those diseases that sit in that cat, in those three categories, that tells us we don't have it. So when we are in active use, we have a disease that says you're fine, you're fine, it won't be that bad tonight. So, um, you know, for me, I I was a person that started going into residential treatment, um in 2010. And I ended up going four times in a two-year period of time. I really struggled to find sustainable recovery and I lost everything and nearly lost my life to this disease.
Speaker 3:And you know, all through that, ultimately, what ended up happening to me was I lost my career and and the reason for that is because there was no culture, there was no environment to which this was an acceptable conversation to have.
Speaker 3:This was not something that was widely looked at as a problem that could be addressed, similar to the leave that we give people for cancer or for heart disease or open heart surgery, right, and so there was no graduated coming back to work plans.
Speaker 3:There was no, you know, because addiction treatment isn't just when you walk in the doors and you stay in a facility for 30, 60 or 90 days.
Speaker 3:The real work begins when we get home the aftercare which every disease has, aftercare protocols of which need to be followed, and so this you know, ultimately losing my career was what really really prompted my passion for helping organizations understand that, even if they don't want to believe it, know you do have a problem within your organization, because there's not one person that isn't affected by someone by this disease, whether it's not themselves, it's a family member, a child, a father, a mother everyone knows somebody, and so having an open dialogue, having the ability to come to HR and tell them I'm really struggling, just like we would if we were diagnosed with cancer, would really help intervene and there's never a failed intervention when it comes to this disease.
Speaker 3:It would help intervene before the bottom continues to get lower and lower and lower and you end up like me and you ultimately end up losing your job. There's a kind of a way to raise that bottom for somebody in order for them to get the help they need at a time where they can still come back and be. I mean, the thing about this is that companies don't even realize the potential and the talent in the people that are struggling with substances. Because if they're okay at work now and they're sick and maybe they're showing up late, maybe their productivity is a little bit lower, but they're still doing a pretty good job, imagine just imagine what kind of employees those people would be if they were in recovery.
Speaker 2:As someone who's been through it, talking to our HR audience today, what would be your advice to an HR leader who has someone come into their office and they open up and they share that they have an illness, they have an addiction to alcohol or drugs. What would you suggest is the most appropriate way to try and help that person?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that HR departments within organizations need to create a safe space for all employees to come to them to discuss whatever it is that's going on in their lives. I mean, that's why most companies have leave benefits is to use those when we really need them, and so the first and foremost thing is to create an environment where employees feel safe to come in and talk about this stuff. The second area is to have resources that you can give them, referrals that you can give them, and if that's not something that's in their quote Rolodex or at their fingertips, they should work with their insurance carrier to find out who are those in-network providers or who are those ethical providers for our executives, for example, that we can use and utilize and offer to our employees to create an environment to where we encourage them to get well. The other part that HR can really really do to help these people that are struggling, like myself, in a work environment.
Speaker 3:I came from the sports world, which was, you know, consisted of thirsty Thursdays and wine Wednesdays and all these other things in the office, so there was no culture for the non-drinkers, right, and it's not to say you can't continue to have this culture of bonding and togetherness and celebration and rewarding employees for a hard week of work and a job well done. A hard week of work and a job well done. But what are we doing to cater and to really allow the non-drinking population to feel safe and part of, because part of something? You know, addiction makes us apart from everything. Recovery makes us a part of something, but we have to be able to carry that into our work environment too. So can we have thirsty Thursdays but also include mocktails or NA beers or or, frankly, just sodas, right Like? We need to be able to combine both cultures, because they can coexist within one organization, to make sure that we're making everyone feel a part of, rather than apart from, the organization.
Speaker 2:So terribly important to give folks other options so they're not feeling like they're being alienated by going to an alcoholic drinks event drinks event. There are some companies out there that still have a zero tolerance policy around drinks and drugs, which fuels this fear of coming forward. What would you say to those leaders of those companies with zero tolerance policies? Would you say, for example, that they're a bit outdated?
Speaker 3:Well, for sure, I mean, I would say that a zero tolerance unless it's a safety sensitive position, like if you're flying airplanes or if you're operating on somebody in an OR or something along those lines. You know, I think that there's certainly safety sensitive positions that we would have a zero tolerance policy. I know for one, I probably wouldn't be someone that would love to have, like my school bus driver with my kids in the bus allowed to drink, right. So I think that there are certain professions, safety sensitive professions, that really demand and require kind of a zero tolerance policy. So I'm all for that in those roles If it's a general organization that isn't safety sensitive.
Speaker 3:You know, I think a zero tolerance is, especially today, is tough. It's really tough to enforce something like that. It's expensive to enforce something like that. If you're giving people drug and alcohol UAs and tests and all these other things. I mean this is a huge expenditure for a company to kind of maintain. And so what's the balance right? Where's the middle ground between zero and excess? And I think that that's the challenge for every organization is to find the balance between every week, thirsty Thursdays and Wine Wednesdays to and a Christmas party that ends up with people, you know, blacking out and not knowing how they got home. You know, where is that middle ground? And it does exist, it does and it can coexist with that, with that culture of celebration. But you know it's getting, it can get dangerous.
Speaker 2:Karen has a special, rather luxurious treatment facility Ocean Drive in Palm Beach, florida. Now there's a place I would love to go, palm Beach, designed to help treat global celebrities, corporate CEOs and other prominent high net worth individuals. Can you tell us more about the challenges that HR executives can overcome to convince those powerful individuals to enter treatment?
Speaker 3:Sure, you know, karen, ocean Drive program in Delray Beach, florida, is a wonderful, wonderful program for these high net worth, high level executives, multi-generational wealth individuals to have really a very concierge, thorough service. It includes, of course, all of the brain scans and the brain health, but it also gives them the ability to have a lot more access to their primary care treatment providers, et cetera. They're meeting with them five, six times a week, but we also are carving out a period of that time for them to be able to continue their work. We're really not shutting these people off from the world. I mean, in many cases these people are running boards, they're running Fortune, you know, fortune 500 companies, et cetera, and they really can't walk away. And that and that's a big barrier to treatment for this population is to be able, is to feel like they have to walk away from their entire life for 30, 60, or 90 days, because in many cases for these high level executives that's an impossibility. And so what we've really tried to do with Ocean Drive is really remove those barriers but also be, at the same time, educating them on maybe some boundaries around work, how often they're working.
Speaker 3:You know this population is often told yes, all the time, and so I think one thing that HR can do is really work with these individuals to let them know that this is not a moral failing, that there's a ton of support behind them from the organization they may own the company, which makes it even more challenging, right? Because, as the owner of the company, there's not a lot of people that can tell them what they have to go do, that can tell them what they have to go do. But I think that there's a gentle way, from a place of love and tolerance and kindness, that we can really express our concern for these people and to let them know that there is a solution and there is a place that they can go that demands privacy, it allows them to stay somewhat anonymous because their exposure to other patients, et cetera, is very minimal, and it gives them a place to go and heal in an environment that they're used to.
Speaker 2:So, if my math is correct, based on the numbers of millions of people that you mentioned earlier on who are currently recorded as battling addiction, that would be around 7% or 8% of the US population, but to your point, it's much, much higher than that. One thing we haven't spoken about yet, and I would be keen to get your thoughts, is what was the impact of the pandemic and people working remotely on increases in addictions. You know, when you're away from your colleagues, when you're not being watched, when you're terribly down because it feels like the world is collapsing. And here we are way past the pandemic, but many people feel, still feel like the world is collapsing for different reasons at the moment. What, what can that do to increase the, the potential of of developing an addiction to drink or drugs?
Speaker 3:yeah, you, you know the pandemic was brutal for, I think, every segment of the population right, I look at our kids and how they suffered socially, health-wise, all of it, but in particular with addiction, what we saw really in the field at that time was a lot of people that had had some sobriety that returned to use during that period of time, because it really removed people. You know, the opposite of addiction really is connection, and so when you remove that connection to other people, especially those of us in recovery, it really kind of puts us back on that isolated island that got us in trouble in the first place, where we kind of felt most comfortable right, and so we did see a lot of return to use during that period of time. We also saw a lot of newly discovered people that were struggling because they had been hiding it so well from spouses and friends and things like that, maybe using or drinking in their own home without people knowing, and then we're all in one place and nobody's leaving, and then kind of the secret is exposed about how much what's been going on in the house, maybe when the spouse is working at the office, et cetera, and so we saw a lot of people come during that time for that as well. Right, maybe they had been using or drinking for some time, but they'd still been successful at hiding it, so we saw it come back.
Speaker 3:You know isolation whether it's the pandemic or just in everyday life you know, working from home can be very isolating for people. Some people manage it beautifully. Other people really need connection with other. People have brought people back now because not only did company cultures start to change, but I think also the connection with other people and the connection to the brands that they represent, the culture of the organization. A lot of that started to dissolve, and so I think a lot of companies have brought a lot of people back to work, which I think is a great thing. But isolation is really a tricky beast when it comes to people that are struggling with substances.
Speaker 2:Carrie, I'm sad to say we're almost at the end of this particular conversation. I'd like to now say that I have lots of respect and admiration for you personally. You've turned something around and now you've made a mission of helping other people through Karen. I just think that's incredibly admirable Final thoughts from you. What would you like to leave our listeners with today?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that you know. If I could leave one last note with everybody, it would be you know, if you are in HR and you do have the ability to influence policy, to influence culture, to influence safe places for employees to come and talk about these types of things and to really give them the resources that they need to get the help they need so they can come back and really affect the organization in such a positive way, I would really ask that you give some real thought to what your current policies are and take a look at those, and to really put your hand out to help these people, because people are dying from this every day, and if we can save one life and if we can bring people back to work in the best version of themselves that they're supposed to be, then I think that that's a victory for any HR department.
Speaker 2:I can definitely get behind that. And, carrie, just finally, how can folks connect with you? So is that LinkedIn? Do you want to share your email address? Are you super cool and all over instagram and places? And, of course, how can? How can folks learn more about karen treatment centers?
Speaker 3:sure, um, I'm on linkedin um carrie bates ollie, which is olympian, and then I'm also on instagram and facebook, so they can find me there. And then the best way to reach out to Karen is on the website, which is wwwkarenorg. And you know, I would just say reach your hand out for help if you need it. It's the hardest phone call you'll ever make, it's the heaviest the phone will ever feel, but it's the bravest thing you'll ever do too.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that you're very brave and I think you're very cool and I appreciate your time today. Thank you, Carrie.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work. Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom.
