Why Your Job Title Is Not Your Identity with Jennifer Outlaw

“I think I’m resigning.” Jennifer Outlaw still remembers blurting those words out in a meeting, and the clarity that followed. That single moment opens a bigger conversation about career reinvention, values-based leadership, and what it really means to be successful when the job looks great on paper but feels wrong in your body.

Pauline James is joined by Jennifer Outlaw, a values-rooted leadership strategist, licensed clinical social worker, and organizational change consultant with decades of nonprofit leadership experience. We talk about why she’s less interested in formal leadership titles now and more committed to being a builder and connector. Jennifer shares how getting honest about what she actually loves to do, like strategizing, teaching, and creating, has changed how she shows up at work. We also explore why play is not fluff, especially for leaders navigating fast change, burnout risk, and the pressure to keep producing.

If you’re feeling stuck, depleted, or nervous about making a change, you’ll hear practical steps you can try today: start with quiet reflection, name your intention, test your strengths with trusted friends, find communities that align with your goals, and consider working with a coach to spark new options. Jennifer also offers a powerful reminder for HR leaders and executives alike: your job title is not your identity, and your “next chapter” can be designed around healing, sustainability, and purpose.

Subscribe for more conversations on leadership development and the future of work, share this with someone who needs a reset, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What would you pursue if you stopped chasing titles?

Transcript

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Welcome And Series Premise

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Hello, I'm Pauline James, CEO of Anchor HR and Associate Editor of the HR Gazette. I'm excited to be here with another episode of the next chapter. For too long, queers have been described as if they peak and then wind down. But life doesn't follow a script, and neither should our work. In this series, we explore how people continue to build, reinvent, and redefine success on their own terms. Today, we are speaking with Jennifer Outlaw, a values-rooted leadership strategist, licensed clinical social worker, and an organizational change consultant with over 20 years of experience in social work and 14 years in executive leadership. She has served in cabinet level roles, including chief program officer and senior vice president, leading multi-million dollar initiatives and designing systems that center on equity, healing, and sustainability. Jennifer is the CEO of Outlaw Idea LLC, where she empowers leaders to build inclusive cultures and lead with purpose. She currently serves as a social researcher and evaluator of large-scale child welfare transformation efforts, is an adjunct professor and a master of social work program and a central state representative with the NASW. Jennifer is also a PhD student in leadership and change at Antioch University. Jennifer, thank you for joining us. You have built an impressive career in senior nonprofit leadership and have had a meaningful impact

Meet Jennifer Outlaw’s Work

SPEAKER_01 2:10

on the community. Can you share with us how your motivations have shifted in recent years?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Thank you so much for having me here. My motivations have changed because I am not really that interested in formal leadership. What I have learned over the last several years is that I am a builder and a connector. I really want to be helping others to actually move towards their aspirations, their Mount Everest or Kilimanjaro. I want to use the lessons that I have learned over the last several decades to just help others get to where they want to be. I think that that is where my gift is. I also think that I am not really interested in hustling. I have done a lot of different things. And while I am someone who is a multitasker and very interested in doing innovative projects and being a part of leading teams, I just really feel like at this point in my life, my talents and skills can be used differently. And so I want to assist others to create and to participate in innovation, but I don't necessarily need to lead it.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Thank you. And I really love thinking about how you've distilled what your key strengths are, where you feel you can add value in a way that also inspires you, motivates you. With that mindset, how is this impacting how you are approaching your career?

Choosing Meaning Over Formal Leadership

SPEAKER_01 4:00

What changes have you made?

SPEAKER_02 4:02

The first thing is I really started to get very clear about what it is that I like to do. And that has not necessarily been the way that I've approached my career in the past. People have seen positive things in me or different skills, and they're like, you could be good at that. And so I'm like, okay, I'll do that. Now I'm really choosing me and really identifying those things that I like to do. So one of the things that I love to do is I like to strategize. And I think I'm really good at strategic thinking. The other thing that I like to do is teach, really figuring out the fact that I am a creative and I want to approach my work in a way that is like art. I used to dance and I pretty much put that on the shelf to do the work. And so I think that by really honing in on what it is that I like, it's really starting to impact the way that I want to show up. So I always want to show up with can we play here in this space? Because I think playing is a way to tap into the brain differently, thinking about how does healing show up for leaders who are doing multiple things and dealing with the fast pace of change and potentially burnout at times. I really want to hone in on helping others to achieve their desires. Where is their joy? Where is their play? Where is their innovation? How can I help people to strategize differently? Where does innovation live? Those are my key shifts that have occurred over the last few years.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Thank you. And as much as you're not interested in chasing a title at this point, you're interested in chasing meaningful work. You have not slowed down. No. I'm showing

Play And Healing At Work

SPEAKER_01 6:05

up differently. You're completing your PhD now on top of all the wonderful endeavors that you're me deep in. What did you learn about your own capacity for growth or reinvention?

SPEAKER_02 6:18

I learned that my capacity for ideas and creativity is abundant. I find that I have more energy now for the things that I love than I had previously. And I think that where that has come from is that I'm not bogged down by just having to focus on a nine to five and I have to be at this place in this meeting at this time. I do work, a full-time job, but I don't have to be in the office. And so I feel like that is how my capacity has shown me that just by taking out like this routine rote way of being, and by bringing in my desire towards joy and play and innovation and creativity, there is spaciousness that tends to appear.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Thank you, Jennifer. I personally find there are certain projects and work that I find draining. And there's times of life where things are depleting you, you know, regardless of how something objectively would generally be interesting to you, but there's work that can feel much more energizing.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yes, yes. I find that coaching is a space that I absolutely love. There is something about supporting people with tapping into what their dreams and their highest kind of aspirations are, and using different powerful questions and inviting, thinking differently. I I find that that is just a place that I really love. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

And I'll note Jennifer and I met through a coaching course, and I gained a lot from being her her partner on that journey together.

Support Systems For Risky Changes

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Yes, and I learned a lot from you too.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

What advice would you have for someone who's feeling less than engaged, maybe even depleted, but they're nervous about making a change.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

So why not want to normalize for them? Because change is nerve-wracking, right? There's a lot of stuff that is happening in the world, and it sometimes is challenging to want to step out and do something different. The advice that I would give someone is find people who are interested in what you are doing. One of the things that has helped me to transition is that I have found particularly women, women of color, who have really been a sounding board where we have been able to create together, we support each other's businesses. And so I think it's really important to find groups that align with your interests. The second thing that I would suggest is get a coach. If we're stuck, it's helpful to talk to someone. And sometimes a coach could be that person that helps to fire new sparks. And then I think the last piece would be take it day by day. And so one very simple thing that you could possibly do is just writing out an intention. What is your intention? What is your highest dream? What would you like to experience? And also how would that experience change your life? And so sometimes it's not about trying to change everything so fast. Sometimes it's just about taking very small steps. So, what is it that I really want to change? Who would I be if I changed? And then what would it look like by combining all of those things with also finding people that can align with what your vision is, that is a way to start the process.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Thank you. Tremendous advice for us to take away and contemplate and to put into practice. Jennifer, if you're someone who knows things aren't working for you right now, but you're not sure where to start, even figure out what the next step could look like, what would your advice be?

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yeah, I

Start Quiet Then Test Insights

SPEAKER_02 10:55

love that question. So I think the first place to start is just with yourself. So I would suggest finding a quiet space, taking a couple of deep breaths, and really just asking the question from that place of quiet. So that would be the first thing. And just see what comes up. Sometimes when we have a tendency to breathe into or ask a question and get the answer, we're not happy with the answer. So what ends up happening is the first answer that comes up, we try to bypass that answer. Usually the first answer that comes up is the answer. So I would just ask a simple question about what is it that I like to do and see what comes up. The second thing that I would suggest is test it. Ask your friends, what is something that you see me doing, or what is something that you notice about me that is a strength? And your friends will tell you, oh, I see that you're really, really good at planting. Well, how does planting flowers and picking the seeds and all of that translate into something? Well, maybe you're really good at details and designing, but they will tell you, and you can test it. You first go inner, then you test outer. And then another thing I would say is what are the things that have been nagging you? So there are certain things, dreams, it could be thoughts that continue to keep circling up. These are the dreams that you had when you were a kid that you stuff down, but somehow they continue to keep circling around. You may have wanted to be a designer when you were a kid, let's just say, and you design a lovely house, but you don't think that your being a designer is a gift. You just think, I just like a nice house and that's it. But all of your friends constantly come to your house and they're like, oh, you should design for me or you should do this for me. Those are other ways when you find that thing that continues to nag you. This PhD for me has been nagging me for 30 years. It always comes up. It sometimes felt like a regret. I courted the program that I'm in. I would go to the open house and listen. Then I would put my paper away. And then it wasn't until I had this wonderful conversation with the dean, put my papers away again, and then she sent me an email. Where's your application? So there are sometimes those kind of moments where someone is inviting you to jump in the pool. Jump. And so I think that that would be go inner, test it outer. What is that thing that continues to keep nagging you? Like it's something I can't do that because I just don't have time. I can't do that because I don't have money. I can't do that because I don't know how to do it. And then look for that moment where someone is inviting you to step in and step in.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Thank you, Jennifer. We're often asked about advice we would have for those early in their career.

Quitting At 50 With Clarity

SPEAKER_01 14:35

With this conversation, we're trying to flip that. What advice do you have for those further along in their career?

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yeah. So for me, if I just share just brief, you know, I quit my job at 50. I had one of the biggest jobs that um I was the chief program officer for a really large organization. I had seven vice presidents that reported to me. We were doing work in the community, and I was not happy at all. There was a lot of fears that I had about leaving. One was stability, because I've been always told you need a job and you need to be able to have a job so that you are stable. And I think that also sometimes if you do not listen to your voice, that small, wise voice, that you will get hit with a boulder. So they usually say it like it starts with a rock. So it's a little knocking in terms of, oh, you should probably leave. This is not a good place for you. And then it just keeps getting bigger and bigger until it's a boulder. And so I had a boulder moment where I had to really make a change. And I decided, I blurted out in a meeting. Um, I think I'm resigning. And my senior, my supervisor was like, don't you want to wait and just see? And I waited a day and came back, and I went through with it. I submitted my resignation. The freedom that I felt just by hitting send was like something I just can't explain. Also, I then was like, okay, day one, what in the world? Why did I quit my job? What am I gonna do? And the beauty of all of this was the fact that one, I never missed a meal just because I wasn't working. I had saved up. I had a support system. I started paying attention to the new town that I moved to that I could not enjoy because of the fact that I was working. I was constantly traveling and I couldn't pay attention. I didn't even know that they had a park with a labyrinth. I didn't know how sweet the downtown is. And so paying attention to my surroundings, the other thing that I learned was work is not my identity. It's where I work, it's where I get a paycheck, but it's not my identity because once things started to shift and change at work, now you're feeling lost. Like, who are you? Your title is not your identity. Your title tells people what you do in the organization, but that is not who you are. And half the time, the titles don't even make sense. What happened for me is that I started to find myself again. I decided to go back to school. I'm 52 years of age and I'm in my second year of a PhD program. Who would have thought? But it was a dream that I had in my 20s that I decided to forego, push away because I wanted to climb up the career ladder. But this is what I'm meant to do. I get so energized and excited when I am working with my PhD cohort and when we go to our residencies and writing up assignments. This is what I meant to do. And so I think sometimes it's about how do we pause and really start to look back and see what are those things that I have pushed to the side that I actually at this point in time have the money for, that I have the resources for, I have the networking for. Because the best thing

Your Title Is Not Identity

SPEAKER_02 18:55

about this age is we've been there, done that. We have the resources. And if we don't have the resources, we know how to get the resources. So that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

That's fantastic. And I love, as you know, there's a rock, and then there's suddenly a boulder, and you're in this meeting, and partway through a discussion, you declare, I think I'm done. And you were hit with this level of clarity that didn't shift in the cooling off period, and that you haven't regretted. Thank you for sharing your story and your insights. When you look ahead, what does the next chapter look like for you, Jennifer?

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Well, Dr. Jennifer Outlaw, that's one part of the next chapter. The second piece is that I really wanted to ramp up my coaching business and see where that goes, especially because I want to combine the coaching modalities that I've learned around brain-based coaching and healing-centered

Designing A Flexible Next Chapter

SPEAKER_02 19:55

coaching and transformational coaching. So I want to figure out how to blend those together. I think also I want to find a way where I can work half of the year. I would love to kind of figure out what that model would look like where doing a lot of the work during the spring and the summer. And then I'm re-energizing and taking on more creative process during the winter and fall. So if I could find that magic, that would make me so happy. And so I feel like the chapter is not written totally yet. And so I'm really excited to see what bubbles up to the top.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Well, I like that. It sounds like your next chapter is about continuing to explore. And I also love when you're saying work half the year. You don't really mean working half the year. You mean way more paid endeavors and having the other half of the year to do your research and contemplative work and strategizing on moving and building and adapting. Exactly. Yes. Thank you so much for this inspiring discussion. It's been wonderful to connect with you, Jennifer. For those who'd like to contact you to connect,

How To Connect And Closing

SPEAKER_01 21:15

what's the best way for them to do so?

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Sure. Thank you for that. Um, it is outlaw i d e a at gmail.com. I also have a website that you can check out. It is outlawidea.com.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Congratulations on your progress, Jennifer, and pursuing your PhD. And I don't know who wouldn't feel like they could benefit from connecting with Dr. Outlaw. Thank you so much. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jennifer Outlaw as much as I did. What really stood out to me is her candor about stepping away from something that looked successful on paper. But no longer felt aligned to her personal inspirations and goals. Her perspective is such an important reminder that we can always come back to consider our deepest aspirations, even if it means making difficult and uncertain decisions along the way. I'm Pauline James, and I'd love to hear what resonated with you. What is your next chapter? Connect with me on LinkedIn or through Anchor HR community. Thank you for listening, and I hope you'll join me next time as we continue reimagining work and life on our own terms.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette? And remember, for what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.