Future of Work, AI and the New Employment Deal with Kevin Empey

What does it really take to thrive in the future of work?

In this episode of the HRchat Podcast, host Bill Banham is joined by Kevin Empey, founder of Work Matters and author of Thrive in the Future of Work, to explore how AI, hybrid work, digital transformation, and changing employee expectations are reshaping organizations around the world.

Together, Bill and Kevin examine how the workplace has evolved over the past decade—from hyper-digitalization and the lasting impact of COVID-19 to the rapid adoption of generative AI and the changing relationship between employers and employees. They discuss why many organizations are focusing on employee engagement when the real challenge may be a growing alignment gap between business priorities and workforce expectations.

The conversation also explores the future of hybrid work, the return-to-office debate, AI's impact on job design, and why HR leaders must rethink early careers if they want to create opportunities for the next generation of talent.

Whether you're a CHRO, HR leader, people manager, talent professional, or business executive, this episode offers practical insights into building more adaptable organizations and preparing employees for an increasingly uncertain future.

In this episode, you'll learn about:

• Why AI is accelerating change faster than previous workplace transformations
• The long-term impact of hybrid work and evolving employee expectations
• Why employee engagement may be the wrong problem to solve
• Closing the alignment gap between organizational strategy and employee experience
• Rethinking the employment relationship in the age of AI
• Preparing graduates and early-career professionals for an AI-enabled workplace
• Why career agility and continuous learning are becoming essential workplace skills

If you enjoy the episode, please subscribe to the HRchat Podcast, leave a review, and share it with colleagues who are shaping the future of work.

Connect with Kevin at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-empey-4968731b/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello, listeners. This is your host today, Bill Batham. And joining me on the show for the very first time is Kevin MP, an internationally recognized expert on the future of work, adaptive leadership, and career and personal agility. Kevin is the founder and managing director of Work Matters and the author of Thrive in the Future of Work. Over a career spanning more than three decades, Kevin's advised organizations on navigating transformation, led pioneering research into the future of work, and held several senior leadership roles, including director and partner at Willis Towers Watson. He's also program director uh of the uh flagship senior executive program at the Irish Management Institute, senior adjunct teaching fellow over at Trinity Executive Education, and creator of Drive, the career navigation system. Kevin has been recognised on the HR Most Influential Thinkers list and has received multiple national and international awards for his work in the future. Work, employment, employment activation and social entrepreneurship. Kevin, how are you doing today? Thank you very much for joining me on the pod.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Very, very uh very, very good to see you, and thank you for having me on. Congratulations to you on podcast and disrupt HR and everything else you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Thank you very much. Uh, let's get into

What Has Fundamentally Changed At Work

SPEAKER_02 1:55

it then. So you've spent more than 30 years, Kevin, helping organizations navigate change. Looking back now, what what do you believe has fundamentally changed about work over the past say decade? Um, and what do HR leaders still underestimate about the future?

SPEAKER_03 2:11

I think yes, if I take you back just a little bit, I mean, when I started getting very um curious about this topic was probably about that time, 10, 15 years ago. But if you just go back a little bit, even turn of the century, do you remember we were sort of we're we were in kind of dot dot-com kind of territory, then we had the financial crisis, um, you know, and then we get into then you know the the all the digitalization agenda. What was iPhone 2007, you know, 2008, Airbnb, you know, you started get that hyper-digitalization, hyperconnectivity. Massive change in that first sort of 10, 15 years of the century. And I remember being on a an employee of the future task force, I think it was 2018. And even then, people think this is only recent stuff in terms of pace and uncertainty and so on. But then employees were really concerned about two or three things. One was flexibility, Bill. Isn't interesting. I remember this is 2018. Flexibility in terms of their work lives, you know, uh childcare, elder care, commuting distances, rents, you know, house prices, um, access to such amazing technology, but yet not having flexibility to use that technology in their in their you know work, right? Um and in their daily lives. Um and and then comes COVID, you know, then and and but another another thing, of course, was that of that time as well as flexibility was concern about skills, concern about the future and the pace of change and how technology was going to impact them. That was 2018, which seems like so long ago now, because since then we've had, of course, COVID, which has changed the relationship with works in so many ways, particularly the where question of work. Um, and now fast on COVID seals, we have, I suppose, the topic of the day, the AI agenda, really impacting what work gets done and how work gets done, right? So, so literally over that period, but accelerated over the last 10 years, has been huge, huge difference to how and where work gets done. But I think also an underlying question about employees' sense of agency in that. I mean, it's quite interesting when you think about big, big, huge changes to the world of work over the last, you know, 10, 12, 40, 50 years. A lot of those changes, Bill, have been top down, you know, from the organization perspective. But but things like COVID and AI, or at least hybrid working, should I say, remote working in AI, as has been huge changes for the individual. You know, the individual is having a say now in terms of you know where they work and and and what tools and what they can do in terms of changing how work gets done. So a hell of a lot of change is the answer. Um, but certainly accelerated exponentially in the last 10 years, and employees having perhaps more of a say in how and where work gets done compared to maybe time's gone by. I don't know what you what do you think?

Return To Office And New Expectations

SPEAKER_02 5:02

What do I think? I was just making a few notes there. Okay, so uh you mentioned COVID changed the where agenda. Uh you spoke about employees' sense of agency and AI and how that's affecting the types of work that we do. What do I think? Um, I would question the where agenda in terms of COVID and what that's changed based on the conversations that I'm having. I feel like a lot of people are getting pushed back into the office. We all celebrated for four years, something like that, 2020 through to about 2024, that um it doesn't matter where you are. If you if you if you're a good employee and you do a good job, you you can work wherever. And then it became well, we kind of need you on the same time zone. And then it became, well, we kind of need you back in the office one day a week. And now I'm I'm consistently hearing from leaders at large organizations that it's a minimum requirement of three or four days in the office.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Yeah, you've got that, haven't you? You've got that sort of phase two of that whole cover, which we won't get into that rabbit hole right now. But I what I would suggest maybe is there no matter how where no matter where the pendulum ends up settling, I think though we've opened up a Pandora's box in terms of the longer-term future of work, in terms of where, first of all, employers getting the message that they can actually access skills and work from anywhere. They can go to that extent, they don't rely on a labor force coming into one place at one particular time. They may want that for their core working group in terms of culture and all the things, and all the arguments that are out there, but they don't have to for all their work. They've got now technology and AI to really kick in as well. And from the employee point of view, even though they should with their current employer, they may be feeling the heat to come in more often. There's been a seed set in their minds, though, in terms of um their own futures regarding their choices regarding where they work. So they will may stay with their current employer because of that, or they may be starting to think about, well, actually, in my future, I might want more flexibility because I've had a bit of a taste of it and I want to have more. Um and I think that I think that's one difference. And I th I think there's a little bit of a small battle has been won in the sense of look, if I have big life things going on in my normal life, that there is the the the employer is probably going to flex in some sense around that, around my my other other priorities, more than maybe I I would have experienced before, even if it's not the three days a week I'd love to be to be out of the office and so on. So I think that something has changed in that in that in that where work is done, if if if a bit of a pullback from where we were.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

When you going to the second part of uh your answer, your your first answer, when you talk about the employee sense of agency, are we talking there about ultimately uh employees today feel like they've got opportunities to to move, and if if a company doesn't treat them well, if the company culture is not correct, then they've got options. Because if that is what you're talking about, I'm I'd I'd question that as well. I I and I'd connect that with AI and how that's affecting how we work today. I think a lot of people are terrified about losing their jobs. And I feel like compared compared to a couple of years ago, Kevin, um where those conversations were still around making sure that the company culture fits the employee. What I'm hearing a lot now is it's more about the employee needing to stay under the radar to stay relevant, make sure they're being upskilled, reskilled, and and keep within the organization because so many positions um are not being replaced. You know, that they've now been augmented by AI. What's your take on that?

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Yeah, there's there's there's so much in that, and of course, these things go through cycles as as we know, and there currently would be that sense of fear, um, a little bit of fear, a bit of uncertainty, and the devil I know a little bit, etc. etc. How we go through this phase. I think, like ever, it's your top talent, and those who are confident in their own skill sets who probably are feeling that look, I I'm not gonna let this time pass. I feel like I am good at what I do, and if I don't like the environment in which I'm in now, I will have choice, but I will make that choice. I think that's what I'm saying, Bill, is it I'm making that choice to stay or to go, if you like. And and and I think there's you know, the when when people see the range and the way work is changing and the jobs that you know didn't never existed before, but that are now emerging, you know, people are beginning to see, gosh, you know, there's there's gonna be so much more to my future career, there's gonna be a lot of difference than maybe the assumptions I've built up to form what my career and what my next step looks like have been disrupted. So I may stay here in the short term, but actually I'm gonna have to be on my guard because I might look for things that either suit me or suit my talents more, and I might look for those elsewhere as well as internally. Um, but it's it's almost like Bill, I I feel this is maybe related to another topic we might get into, but I feel there's been a shift. What Rosabeth Moss Cantor talked about nearly 20 years ago. Now she she mentioned that the a new employment deal is needed for the 21st century, right? And and I just feel that that is actually happening. You mentioned what employers might be thinking of doing our H and I I do feel that we are shedding some of those 20th century type of norms around work processes, careers, roles, structures, contracts, you know, length of time and jobs and so on, what people do and for how long they do it. I do feel that some of those norms and expectations of the sort of 20th century are are giving way to some of the 21st century realities, you know, in terms of speed of change, skills acquisition, um, flexibility regarding the career path that I thought I was on, but now I might need to think about pivoting onto something else, exactly, etc. Do you know what I mean? So I think and I think that's a two-way thing. I don't I think that's employees also needing to engage with that question as well as employers.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazette.com. And now back to the show.

Leaders Adjusting To 21st Century Work

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Are there still a lot of uh senior leaders out there um who are grappling with these 21st century priorities? Uh, I think so.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

I think that's a very natural, a very natural thing because so many of our ways of working and our norms and our maybe more command, control, or more more traditional ways of of organizing ourselves um have been so successful for us up to this point and even for the first you know 10, 10, 20 years of the of the century. But you just get a sense that some of those ways are just not serving. So when you take, for instance, um, Bill, just take the COVID example. There was no playbook, right? There was no playbook to that. So we had to collectively come up with a solution to that, and you know, we muddled our way through. It's just that those type of disruptions to work and to business life are coming at us more with more frequency. So that idea of having to deal with more disruption and bigger scale disruption is something more common in today's kind of ways of working and organizing ourselves than maybe we experienced before. You know, so I think there is a a difference to what the employment deal is. I think there's a difference to ways of working, I think there's a difference to the narrative, if you like, that organizations probably need to have with uh their employees, which is probably a more perhaps more adult to adult one uh than maybe existed before, where the sort of traditional, you know, contract and employment kind of rules um pertain pertained, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Which is a fantastic lead-in to my next

The Alignment Gap Beyond Engagement

SPEAKER_02 13:14

question. So well done. You must be a mind reader. Uh a recent LinkedIn post of yours argues that we're facing not simply an engagement problem, but an but an alignment gap were your words, uh, between leaders and employees. So I guess kind of following on from what we've spoken about so far, what what exactly do you mean by that, Kevin? And why do you think this framing is more useful than traditional discussions around engagement?

SPEAKER_03 13:38

I guess, I guess, and this is this isn't necessarily coming from me, it's coming from um employers, particularly talking a little bit about their agendas, their change agendas, um, over the next few years, Bill, and talking about what we have to do to change our business model, to um keep up with the technology, to be ready for disruption and so on, and talking about how maybe where their employees are in that in those kind of races. So, in other words, the the train is leaving a station, right? And and you know, the employees for in some cases, not everybody, but there's some cases, well, employees are they still on the platform, you know, trying to wonder are they going to get on this train or not? So that's what I mean by an alignment gap, is that employees, maybe to your point earlier, a bit concerned maybe about jobs, but a bit concerned about about their skill set and about where things are going, but also wanting maybe some flexibility in their in their working lives and so on. They're looking at at well, you know, what's in this for me piece, if I suppose. And whereas the employers are looking at, no, we've got a serious business agenda. We want you on that bus. If I've changed the transport metaphors, we want you on that bus. In fact, you've been really key part to our story so far. Um, but you need to, you, you need to play a part in that as well. And therefore, is the alignment between the business agenda and the employer's agenda and the employee agenda, their needs and wants, and the employees' employers' needs and wants, what I'm raising a question is is whether that alignment between those interests is where it needs to be. Rather than just traditional kind of ways of trying to push, you know, messaging and kind of logic about this is our next business plan, this is where we're going. That actually there's something a bit more emotional required in terms of really bringing people along the change journey with us because employees are complaining about, rightly so, in many cases, you know, some burnout, they're they're they're feeling overwhelmed, uh, they're concerned about technology overload. They're saying, okay, I've I've increased some productivity with AI, but I don't seem to be, my life doesn't seem to be getting any easier. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's that sort of um that that kind of narrative, if you like, that's going on amongst employees is not quite the same as I'm hearing in the narrative in terms of employers and where they want to get. So, how do we close that gap is the next question, really, isn't

Why This Moment Feels Different

SPEAKER_03 16:04

it?

SPEAKER_02 16:04

So, why is this an inflection point? Why is this time different? Because I've been in this space quite a while now since before I went great. Um, and terms like absenteeism and presenteism and burnout and all these are not new terms. These these are things that folks were dealing with when it was a less of a disruptive world. There are there are less contextual things happening around us, whether that's AI or wars in different places or uh a faltering economy or whatever else it might be, COVID a few years ago. Well how how is it different now?

SPEAKER_03 16:36

I think I well I totally agree with you. The world as workers always changed. And we've always we've always adapted successfully in that, haven't we? And and therefore, like what's so different about this time? I think it's a really, really important question. Because if we can't answer that question, then we can't frame the right solutions around that. And I I I um I I do think I think uh I think pace, I think pace is I I think nobody can argue with that. If you look at the pace of change and disruption, I just named off three or four in 10, 10, 15 years. We didn't have anything like those episodic changes in the previous 50 years, some would say 100 years. So pace of change, I think with with uh the pace of change in this particular technology, I think uncertainty is on the increase. And again, the uh um economic intelligence unit actually track uncertainty, and you can imagine the way it's going. The graph is going in a in an exponential horizon, you know, way compared, and it's not just a steady increase, it's it's exponential in terms of uncertainty. What that means is day-to-day level is optionality. So employers have different options, maybe employees are thinking about different options, there's different scenarios in terms of geopolitics and all kinds of things. So uncertainty, pace of change, bringing complexity. And I do think that the role of the employee, I think the new generation as well, the younger are more vocal about and and others about what they need and what they want from work, what how work is fitting in with the rest of their lives and what they expect uh from work and from employers. I mean, again, talking to uh the leaders of a legal firm who, you know, traditionally depended on that 20th century kind of pipeline model. I mentioned the 20th century norms a minute ago. The expectation that we get an X number of graduates in and they all go up and they all, you know, an X percent become partner, it's just been completely disrupted. So there's no doubt that even though you might say that it might be a difficult time, a concerning time for employees regarding job security, I do think there is an underlying trend about employee uh worker agency and looking for different things from work than they say would have done even 10, 20 years ago. So I think that what I call a uh Bill a future of work cocktail. I I I think is it's not one thing or another. I think it's that cocktail, that mix of things that marks this time out to be different than certainly previous cycles I've experienced or indeed studied. I think we're in we're in a particular particularly uh interesting time right now. And I think you know, AI again is probably the sort of the the thing in the background that's concerning even the jobs and the tasks I do and the profession I choose is under question, you know, now and uh and whereas it wouldn't have been necessarily, you know, five, ten, fifteen years ago.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

We are already coming towards the end of this particular conversation, Kevin. I had so many other questions I wanted to ask of you today, but we went in different directions. That's on me. But uh I hope listeners have found it useful so far. Uh just two more questions for you before we do wrap up for today.

Young People And Entry Jobs Reimagined

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Uh next one is around um something that I'm quite passionate about, something I talk about quite a lot, and and that's opportunities for young people. Given everything we've spoken about so far, the disruption, the uncertainty around jobs. What we're all seeing, so take in the UK, for example, where I am, um, it's now around a million young people between 16 and 24 who are neat, not in education, employment, or training. That's crazy. I know the stats in cat in um in Ireland are a lot stronger, but we're all fancy facing a reality where young people are just struggling to get into the workforce, to add value, you know, to work with these other generations. Where do we go from here? How do we how do we support those folks so that so they're not left behind?

SPEAKER_03 20:28

No, it's a that's a great expression, you know. Uh nobody should be left behind in this uh future work um you know chapter that's emerging right now. Um and clearly a lot of attention on that early career has been has been brought up in terms of and I think one thing we have to completely re-inight you there is some evidence of this. Uh people maybe reframing what does early career look like, what does a graduate job look like? And if we continue, this again is that 20th century versus 21st century again built, if we if we continue to see graduate jobs as being what they were, you know, then there's no argument that automation and technology could take up some of that that work. There's no question. But if we reimagine, though, what a graduate and what an entry job could look like in terms of utilizing these tools and and getting involved in those uh change agendas from earlier on using their their profile. You you can see how that actually we because we simply it's it's so short-term not to be thinking about a pipeline and bringing youth and particularly talented youth into the organization. Where is the next line going to come from? But it will require a different view and a different design of what work actually looks like in those earlier pieces. That's on the employer side. I do think though there's a bit of support and challenge and even tough love

Career Navigation And Personal Agility

SPEAKER_03 21:50

required here. And that's why we we created Drive, you know, which is basically career a career navigation system. And it's about building career navigation capabilities. ability for the changing world of work that we're in. Not just for the younger full cohorts, but indeed for mid-career as well, who are also looking at the next 10, 20, 30 years of their career. And you're thinking about longer working lives, you're thinking about pensions and everything else. And so at not just the younger workforce, but I think in different cohorts too, there's a concern. And and and what we need more than ever, and I think this is beyond doubt, is better kind of career navigation skills. Because the reason why we need it now more than ever is because we're going to get our careers disrupted more, you know, than we've ever had before, including early careers. So therefore that's why we've found you know great reaction to the the drive system is because it's actually giving people the their own skill set to navigate their futures and not expecting the employer to have all the answers, which they won't. So it's the idea of this more adult to adult co-creation of the future as opposed to you know employer led only. So I think that's that's a fundamental for me and that's spawns from my work around personal agility as well being the sort of skill set for the changing world of work because we simply have to uh be able to navigate this disruption you know and uh whether that's from a career perspective or a purpose because if we don't build like the whole point about work and working it should be an enjoyable part of our overall lives and that's why the book I'll thrive in the future of work I could have called it cope in the future of work but that's where's the where you know where's the you know where's the point in that we've got to find ways of trying thriving and I think that career navigation piece will be a fundamental one not just for employers but for employees as well.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

I hope you are right uh the regular listeners of this show know that I'm a bit more skeptical about the future of work. I I I I I want you to be right I want it I want it to be more of an optimistic uh take on that.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Okay we are I do have to challenge you on that then so yeah you have to give me a return I have to come back for part B and uh I'll come right back to you as to why why why exactly I'll be Mr Grumpy you can be

How To Connect And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Mr.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Happy okay but before we do wrap up for today though Kevin how can folks uh connect with you is that LinkedIn do you want to share your email address are you super cool and all over TikTok and places and of course how can they get a copy of your book Thrive in the Future of Work?

SPEAKER_03 24:27

I think um website workmatters.ie or just reach out on LinkedIn you catch me there kevin dot mp at workmatters.e.ie email love to love to love to connect with folks on this and have debates just like this one uh Bill because uh it's only by debating this and having a bit of yin and ang we're going to get the right answer on this I think you're right to sort of say it shouldn't be overly it's it's there's it's it's neither you know to be pessimistic or optimistic both are wrong right so we've got to we've got to have actually both that it is a challenge but it's also an opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

We've got to look at it and that's part of the paradox on this new world is that it's both it's not one or the other you know so anyway hopefully it'll keep going for the work will keep going for a few more years at least but until the Terminators turn up at our doorstep that just leaves me to say for today Kevin I've I've gotten to meet you a couple of times now on Disrupt Dublin events you're an absolute gent um highly respected in Ireland and throughout the world it's an absolute pleasure for the first time and not the last I hope to have you on the show with me today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

And listeners as always until next time happy working thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show if you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette. And remember for what's new in the world of work subscribe to the show follow us on social media and visit hrgazette.com