Episode 240- Nurturing Democracy with Religious Diversity. With Chris Walsh and Bill McKenzie

When faith meets public square, the intersection can be complex. On The Common Bridge, we navigate these crossroads with Bill McKenzie and Chris Walsh, delving into the potency of religious pluralism in underpinning democracy. Their profound insights spring from a wealth of experience—Bill's front-row seat to George W. Bush's political ascent, and Chris's global efforts to champion democratic principles. Together, we cut through the noise around religion's role in society, examining how diverse belief systems not only coexist but enrich our democratic fabric. By reflecting on their essay, we illuminate the essence of pluralism and the importance of accommodating an array of faiths in a robust, democratic society.

This journey through the philosophical and pragmatic facets of faith in public life is both timely and timeless. We dissect the four stages of multi-faith relationships and grapple with the impact of misinformation on religious communities, all while seeking pathways to peace and progress. Our dialogue with Bill and Chris transcends the typical rhetoric, providing a space where respect and understanding among varying spiritual perspectives are recognized as cornerstones of a thriving democracy. Tune in for a compelling exchange that challenges conventions and celebrates the power of pluralism to bridge divides and bolster our collective commitment to democratic ideals.

Transcript

Religious Pluralism in a Strong Democracy

Narrator 0:00

Welcome to this episode of season 5 of the Common Bridge, where policy and current events are discussed in a fiercely nonpartisan manner. The host, richard Helpe, is a philanthropist, entrepreneur and political analyst who has reached over four million listeners, viewers and readers around the world. With our surging growth in audience and subscriptions, the Common Bridge continues to expand its reach. The show is available on the Substack website and the Substack app Simply search for the Common Bridge. You can also find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. The Common Bridge draws guests and audiences from across the political spectrum, and we invite you to become a free or paid subscriber on your favorite medium.

Richard Helppie 0:43

Hello, welcome to the Common Bridge. I'm your host, rich Helpe, and we've got a couple of very interesting guests today Bill McKenzie and Chris Walsh. Since we've gotten into lots of political topics and policy topics, why not just take on religion a little bit right, the things that people tell you don't talk about? We're going to talk about them here, and we're going to talk about them in a fiercely nonpartisan way, and we're going to talk about building bridges Again for the listeners, readers and viewers of the Common Bridge. You know we're trying to find common ground wherever we can, and so this very human thing, the faith, the belief in something beyond this earthly life, the kinds of practices give people guidance and moral clarity has led to much love, much acceptance, and we've had wars fought over it. We've seen extremist terrorist attacks, most recently Hamas in Israel, and our guests today have co-written an essay called Making Space for Different Faiths is Important in a Strong Democracy. That's what we're going to talk about today. So, gentlemen, welcome to the Common Bridge. I'm happy that you're here.

Chris Welsh 1:56

Great to be here.

Richard Helppie 1:57

Thank you. So our audience likes to know a little bit about our guests, and I don't know who would like to go first, chris or Bill. But tell us a little bit. Where were your early days like? What was the arc of your experience, education and work that led you here today?

Chris Welsh 2:14

Bill has a more interesting story than me. He should go first.

Bill McKenzie 2:18

Only because I have more years. So I grew up here in Texas, in Fort Worth, went to the University of Texas, kind of stumbled coming out of college but ended up working in Washington DC for 12 years. One year I spent working for John Anderson's 1980 presidential campaign and then spent 10 years editing a opinion journal with the Ripon Society, a moderate Republican group. Came back home like all Texans and joined the Dallas Morning News editorial page and was there for 22 years. Got to know a rising political co-name, george W Bush, who was at that point president of Texas Rangers, and so watched his career closely during those days and then joined the Bush Institute in 2014 as senior editorial advisor, now helped launch our magazine, the Catalyst, and work here with Chris on the series we're calling the Pluralism Challenge.

Richard Helppie 3:19

Great Well, welcome to the Common Bridge, Chris. That is a hard act to follow there. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Chris Welsh 3:26

I'm glad you think so too. But so I grew up pretty far away from Texas, where the Bush Institute George W Bush Presidential Center is located, on Cape Cod, Massachusetts, which is not as glamorous as it may sound. For those of us who were native Cape Coders, it was not a vacation destination. I went to a school where everyone looked like this as scary as that is to picture not a whole lot of different perspectives, lots of very Catholic community, which I myself am, and I knew that growing up there. What I wanted to do is I love Cape Cod. My family is still there but I wanted to do something different. I wanted to meet and engage different people.

Chris Welsh 4:05

Went to Washington DC to study international relations, got a job right out of college, went to a place called the International Republican Institute and despite the name it is nonpartisan working to support democratic values and democratic governance around the world, and that gave me a tremendous opportunity to meet different cultures, people of different backgrounds and faiths, just to hear remarkable stories of courage for those struggling for their own freedom and their own human rights. And then a boss of mine who was at the Bush, I'm sorry at the International Republican Institute, left to, came here to Dallas to work at the Bush Institute, asked me if I wanted to join and kid grown up in Massachusetts, never expected to be in Texas ever, never expected to be working for a former president, let alone a Republican president, and it was the opportunity of a lifetime and it has been a great thrill working on some of our freedom and democracy programs here and, as Bill mentioned most recently, looking at this challenge of pluralism specifically here in the United States and why it matters so much to our democracy.

Richard Helppie 5:05

Well, great look, we have both of the major parties trying to channel people into these narrow beliefs and we hope that people will listen that even with people that have presorted one candidate or another and Bill, of course, I like the John Anderson story in particular I think you know across the spectrum we have people that understand. We've got some really serious challenges as a country, but we still have a country populated by generous, compassionate and kind people and religious pluralism. Can you just talk to our audience the basics what is it, why is it important and how can we go about achieving it?

Chris Welsh 5:46

Well, maybe I'll start quickly by taking a step back, before we go to religious pluralism specifically. I don't think you can talk about that until you talk about pluralism. What is it? Why does it matter?

Chris Welsh 5:56

In fact, one of the things that set us down this road of exploring pluralism and making the case of why it's so important to our democracy started with a survey from a group called Philanthropy and Action for Civic Engagement I think I believe that was the name, but they did a survey looking at different terms in terms of a democratic governance or a democratic society.

Chris Welsh 6:18

The term that was the most outstanding in a bad way was pluralism. What we found in that survey was that 40% of people had never heard of the word pluralism. Another 40% said well, either pluralism is not a great thing or I just have a neutral feeling towards it. Only about 19% said it was something good. That got us fairly worried. If you can't understand what pluralism is and why it matters to a country of 330 million very different, very quirky people, I think our democracy is sunk. We define democracy as a social tolerance for people of different faiths and backgrounds and geographies and ethnicities and races all working together in the framework of our American democracy. We have a certain set of values and common founding principles from which sets up the United States of America.

Richard Helppie 7:14

But wait a minute, chris. I think this is a little confusing because as I look at some of the established media ecosystem, I hear two things that one group wants to own the libs, which I think means put them on a leash, and the other side says, hey, we have to wipe out something called MAGA. You mean, we're all trying to live here under one roof with something as personal as religion inside of pluralism. That's kind of an unusual view and we've watched those on one extreme and the other, through reason, through threats, through social ostracization, try to drag somebody across. It doesn't seem to work very well. But in the religious context you recently wrote the essay and, by the way, if you don't know that, how can our listeners, readers and viewers access your essay? Where can they go to get more information?

Chris Welsh 8:09

Sure, they can go to the Bush Center website, wwwbushcenterorg and look up the pluralism challenge and you'll see a series of essays that we've done, including the religious pluralism one, okay, great.

Richard Helppie 8:21

So for religious pluralism, what is it and why is it so important to include that as one of them, and how can people go about achieving that? And all the turmoil in the world and the passions around this?

Bill McKenzie 8:35

I will jump in here. The need, I think, is pretty obvious. I think we can look at headlines and pretty much come to the conclusion that we need to figure out some way for people to be able to express their differences without tearing each other apart. And so, certainly when it comes to religion, we have some of the same tensions and the same conflicts. So what are the conditions that would give rise to people being able to share their views? They don't have to change their views.

Bill McKenzie 9:08

Nobody's trying to convert each other.

Bill McKenzie 9:10

In fact, one of the I would say one of the primary findings we came across in our research and talking to lots of different groups who practice pluralism, religious pluralism is that the deal is done.

Bill McKenzie 9:25

The moment somebody thinks you're trying to convert them, what you're trying to do is to understand somebody else's point of view, express it, respect it. And Chris and I spotlighted a number of different groups in this essay, but one I'll mention here the Multi-Faith Neighbors Network, which combines leaders of the three major Abrahamic faiths who meet regularly. Chris and I went to one of their gatherings here in North Texas at a local Bible church where Pastor Bob Roberts has made this his calling as to how do you get leaders of these three faiths together, as well as people who adhere to those three faiths and be able to express their views and have a common dialogue and respect each other. So they have events, they have small group discussions, they have shared meals together, they work on projects together and that is, I think, a great example of where nobody is converting each other, but they're learning to respect and hear each other, and I think that's just obviously very important in our world today.

Richard Helppie 10:35

I'm really encouraged by that, because I bought my clothes for years from a dear friend of mine who is a devout Jewish man, very observant, and the tailor in the same building is a devout Muslim and I myself am a Christian and we've known each other for decades and we know about each other's families and we chat with each other and at that very tiny individual level there doesn't seem to be a problem. But when I start to unwrap some of the religious doctrine and preparation for this, look, christians believe in making disciples of everyone. That's a basic tenet of Christianity. Muslims may believe that converting others to Islam is a religious duty and synagogues have well-established practices to support conversion to Judaism. And in that context, what have you been able to witness or hear about in terms of finding that pathway to acceptance and stopping short of trying to change someone's beliefs? That seems to be a pretty narrow walk there.

Chris Welsh 11:43

Well, I think what those face will find and I don't think this will be of any surprise is that that pathway to conversion will not be successful, particularly in a democratic republic that emphasizes various freedoms and abilities to associate with who you please.

Chris Welsh 12:02

And so Bill used the example of this multi-faith neighbors network and their complete emphasis is, in fact, the reason they use the word multi-faith, if I'm not mistaken is to understand that these, these faiths, are coexisting together and that when you engage in dialogue, it is about understanding, it's about explaining your views and your opinions. It is not about conversion, and that if you set about the conversation or the dialogue with conversion as the goal, you're likely going to be unsuccessful. But the beauty of something like this multi-faith neighbors network is it brings together these different faith communities in their communities and their chapters across the country and it gets these communities talking to one another. It gets them helping in non-religious matters. It also allows them to satisfy their curiosity where they can ask questions about the other faith in an environment where they feel safe and they don't feel stupid or dumb or offensive, where everyone is on the same page, and we think that's really valuable.

Bill McKenzie 13:03

And, I would say, rich. In a secular society, you have room for all three. We interviewed, not for this piece, but for a previous piece we did for a series called Democracy Talks, where we interviewed Ebu Patel, who is the founder, and Chris, correct me the name of his organization, because it changed it's Interfaith America, I think, now and his point is that each gets to express their own views, each gets to hold their own views and each gets to live out their own views, and that's what happens in a secular society where you have this opportunity to do it. He also pointed out something and we came across this in various people we spoke with is the importance of having shared projects. So you mentioned having your tailor and the person who sells you the clothes.

Religious Pluralism in Democracy

Bill McKenzie 13:57

Patel mentions hospitals as being a really great example where you may have surprisingly religious pluralism. In effect, you may have a Jewish doctor, you may have a Muslim who is the anesthesist. You may have a nurse who's a Christian. What are they there to do to get you well? And they're there in a common undertaking. And you may see that here in Dallas we've got Methodist Hospital I live two blocks away from it and you'll people of all different faiths and they're trying to, I guess, cure people. Be all right, work, treat people, take care of people.

Richard Helppie 14:35

Again, the title of your essay is Making Space for Different Faiths is Important for Democracy because we hear so many people saying well, democracy is the way we want to live, we want to have some kind of self-determination and yet resolving these conflicts. For that strong democracy, I would imagine that's a barrier and at some point, if that barrier is held too closely, that could result in extremism. Is there any link between people going past the democratic structures and only going to their religion? That leads to extremism, or is it something else?

Bill McKenzie 15:16

Well, I would say, if we stop listening to each other, which is a key part of this being active listeners, yeah, you probably will get to that point. But if you're intentional about this, you're intentional about collaborating on shared projects, you're intentional in trying to understand the other person's point of view, religious point of view, then you will not go to the wall. If you will, but you probably will if you are not willing to engage in that public sphere, common sphere, where you're trying to understand each other.

Richard Helppie 15:51

I like the structure you put in your essay. Gentlemen, You're here to listen, not rebut. You want to be genuinely curious and respectful. Listening as the first pillar of religious pluralism. Look, I think most reasonable people would agree that religious pluralism would be a good thing. But who benefits from religious division? Who stirs this up in us? That makes it difficult for us to achieve this.

Chris Welsh 16:20

It could be anyone. I'm not going to call it a specific group, because that could change depending upon the dynamics of politics at the time. So I'll offer maybe an unsatisfying, but more a broader picture of what that group might be. I'm going to end thisLaughin' with this job. Come back, we would have it.

Chris Welsh 16:33

Hello, I'm focused on the short term. Who's not thinking long term? I mean, I know that we often, with these, with these noble ideals and principles and values, try to Appeal to the better angels of human nature, which we should do. But let me appeal to the selfish angels of our nature.

Chris Welsh 16:48

If you have a system where One religion is oppressing another and you're okay with that, you're comfortable with that, perhaps you're in the majority, you're assuming that your tribe or whatever you want to call it group religion will always be at the top of the pyramid, and I think history, if it's shown us anything, is that societies change and fall and the dynamics within a civilization Will be turned on their head. That is why I would advocate for a system that allows all of these different groups to practice their interests, their beliefs, their religions Throughout perpetuity. That's why I would argue that democracy, a liberal democracy, is the best form of government. It's the one that's going to secure those not just individual rights, but group rights as well. If your religion is unpopular, you're still protected, you know. If, if someone wants to boot you out, you have legal. You have legal avenues to pursue. You have the Constitution protecting you. You have a democratic culture protecting you. That's why I would argue for for the importance of religious pluralism.

Richard Helppie 17:49

I'm glad you brought up the Constitution because we do enjoy a freedom of religion and freedom from religion. I mean, the framers did a great job with this. Look, accepting that someone else has a faith does not diminish my own, and you know I've been to services of various faiths and we can always find some some common ground. In your essay I was really struck by. You talked about the four stages of multi-faith Relationships. The other competition, conversion, collaboration. That was, I thought was a really succinct formula. How did you guys get to that and how was it received when you talk about it?

Bill McKenzie 18:29

Well, that that is actually, I think, coming from Pastor Bob Roberts, who talks about these four stages that he's seen going through, which I think make a lot of sense. When you look at you know your own individual experiences, or you look at what happens in the world, you can kind of see those four stages going playing out. So In the rest, your question was yeah, how's it received?

Bill McKenzie 18:58

when you talk to people about it, Well, I think what is received is, I would say, a a surprisingly widespread sense that the importance of going through the mechanics, if you will, of religious pluralism. We, chris and I, interviewed several groups here in North Texas one friends for good and they come from various different Places on the religious spectrum and they commit to meeting regularly, they have meals together, they have small group discussions that are that are led by somebody who's having kind of a direct discussion. So it didn't just kind of freeform, but it's all working through these different parts of Practicing pluralism this past week the Wall Street Journal had a opinion column said Dearborn, michigan's the Jihad Center.

Richard Helppie 19:56

You know, look, I've done business in there on my last office was there in a prior life. You know I have family members go to school there. We interact regularly with people of different faiths. So I don't know what he's talking about, unless it's underground and there's a you know big Jewish community in Metro Detroit. It's curious to me that a credible reporting source like the Wall Street Journal would write something like that, instead of maybe getting on an airplane, coming and visiting and see what, what's actually going on here One of the things I talked to people about.

Richard Helppie 20:29

When they then they start Attacking another group and the other ring, you know I'll stop them and I'll say, look, how many people like that Do you personally know? And more often than not it'll be, well, well, none. Well then, how do you know it's true? Well, I saw a television program report or whatever, and I go okay, do you trust the people that wrote it? Well, were they trying to entertain you and flame you or inform you? Well, probably, you know, trying to get me angry a little bit.

Richard Helppie 20:58

All right, now let's, can we unwrap this a little bit. I mean, it seems to me that you gentlemen were kind of at the tip of the spear of trying to to get more dialogue over more conflict and when I read your essay, you wrote this prior to the Hamas attacks in Israel and you gave some thought to not publishing the piece and then you decided to. Can you tell our audience about what you were thinking as you wrote it, the events of the attack from Hamas and then your decision to publish this? I think is a very fascinating part of what you guys have been up to.

Chris Welsh 21:35

Well, I think let me offer some thoughts, and I'm sure Bill can add a little more context or if I, if I leave out something, but I think when we were, we were looking at this, our primary concern was actually a little Selfish, in that we did not want to be seen as taking advantage of this, of this horrible tragedy, and that that inflames a lot of passions of good people and and who have very different views and very different perspectives on this decades, centuries old issue. And so what we wanted to do in writing this was say to our Delaying, it was to say, we want to at least see if tensions can cool down a little bit and we don't want to be right at the outset, trying to promote these ideas when there are people suffering, both Palestinians and Israelis, and we, we, I think we waited a couple months and then we said but we still believe that we should publish this piece, and even though that the series, the pluralism challenge, has been focused on America specifically, we saw all the connections I mean, you saw this on the campus, protests across our country, palestine versus Israel, and and what we did was say you know, there was some insight that was provided by New York columnist, david French, who we interviewed several years ago, where he said what was his quote? Basically that classical liberalism and pluralism are the greatest civil war avoidance mechanisms ever created by the mind of man. And we tend to agree. Probably not a surprise.

Chris Welsh 23:16

And we still believe that, despite all the turmoil in the Middle East, despite the strong passions and emotions here in the United States over that issue, that pluralism remains exactly what David French called it a civil war avoidance mechanism. It is the system that will allow us to get through these divides, at least here in the United States, probably more complicated in Israel and Palestine, but even in Israel and Palestine, if we want to create a durable and sustainable peace where the dignity of both Israelis and Palestinians are respected, pluralism is going to be a piece of that.

Bill McKenzie 23:49

We spoke with one leader while we were wrapping this up and considering how and when to publish it, and this person made the comment that you know that people are searching for the day after. The day after the conflict ends, the violence ends, and so you know we get it. We know that there's violence going on and this isn't just going to happen miraculously overnight. But if you're thinking about the day after and that day after can be a long period of time these are the types of fundamentals you need to bring greater stability out of this tension.

Richard Helppie 24:26

What kind of feedback have you gotten about your essay?

Bill McKenzie 24:30

Well, we're just we're sending it out now and we're getting it like with you and this podcast. We've done other podcasts. We're getting it on today on Real Clear Religion. We're sending it out via op-ed pieces, sending it out through our various channels here at the Bush Institute and you know the people that I've heard from just more on a personal basis I've sent to that they're glad we're doing this and they're glad we're saying it. So you know we haven't encountered the pushback which you know. That's okay. Be good to hear the if somebody is pushing back against us, because that's kind of what pluralism is about.

Richard Helppie 25:14

Like the old Beatles song. You know, try to see things my way. You know we can work it out and I think, if you take what you're doing to its nth degree, that we could have a grand outcome. I mean, there's always going to be tension in the world, but you know, for Pete's sake, we can get along. And there's a lot more in the essay and I encourage my listeners, readers and viewers to find it. Making space for different faiths is important in a strong democracy. Written by William McKenzie and Chris Walsh. It's a serious topic for a serious time, as we're sitting, you know, with war raging in the Middle East, with religious roots to it and with a country here that continues to be the greatest place in the world where people can practice the faith of their choice. As we come to our close today, gentlemen, is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you'd like to relay to the listeners and the readers and the viewers of the Common Bridge, or any closing comments for us, please?

Chris Welsh 26:10

Maybe I'll just throw out a few quick thoughts. First of all, thank you again for the opportunity to talk about this, rich. I never know how people will react to this. I don't know if it's unpopular, but I think it's important to say and that is when we talk about pluralism and we got at this a little bit earlier. But to be crystal clear, this is not people of many colors and many nations and many backgrounds saying and singing the same song and unity.

Chris Welsh 26:37

Pluralism is all about differences, it's all about disagreements, but it's how we navigate those differences, and what that means is, I think, a lot of times we go into some of these discussions with an idea that we're very righteous, and you may be, and my opinion is right, and I just need to talk to these people and convince them that my point of view is correct.

Chris Welsh 26:59

And when we come away with disagreement, we get upset, we get angry, because how could these people not see the correctness of my viewpoint? And then we start to say, well, if I'm so right and they're wrong and I'm good, maybe they're evil. And so I just want to emphasize that it's okay In fact it's good for democracy when we disagree, even in matters of ultimate concern when we're talking about religion. We have a system that allows us to coexist and to practice our faiths on parallel tracks, even if we really don't like what the other people are doing. We can still disagree and we can debate and we can criticize in a respectful and civil manner. But at the end of the day, those other religions, those other groups, they have the right to exist as long as they're following constitutional and legal safeguards.

Richard Helppie 27:45

Great. Thank you very much, chris Bill. Any closing thoughts for the audience of the Common Bridge.

Bill McKenzie 27:50

Yeah, take care to your listeners, take heart. Certainly there's a lot of conflict in the world. Certainly we get that there's a lot of polarization. On the other hand, there are a lot of points of light, if you will, to borrow from another Bush, from George HW Bush, around the country and local communities. We've discovered this in our other essays that we've done, one of which dealt with a pluralism at the local level or politically seeing it at the college campus level, and we're seeing this in different groups that we come across that they're practicing pluralism. They may not grab the headlines every day, but they're there and they're trying to strengthen their communities and they do so by agreeing to disagree and not tear each other apart.

Faiths in Democracy

Richard Helppie 28:39

Thank you very much. We've been talking today with Bill McKenzie and Chris Walsh about their very thoughtful essay Making Space for Different Faith is important in a strong democracy and lots of other types of pluralism. Very difficult to disagree, because the entire thesis is let's listen, let's respect and let's all coexist together. Gentlemen, thank you for being guests on the Common Bridge. Thank you for having us and for our listeners, our readers and our viewers. This is your host, rich Helpy, signing off on the Common Bridge.

Narrator 29:15

Thanks for joining us on the Common Bridge. Subscribe to the Common Bridge on Substackcom or use their Substack app, where you can find more interviews, columns, videos and nonpartisan discussions of the day. Just search for the Common Bridge. You can also find the Common Bridge on Mission Control Radio or your Radio Garden app.