SEL in EDU
Real stories. Practical insights. Everyday Social Emotional Learning (SEL).
SEL in EDU
084: Leading with Less: The Power of Minimalist Leadership with Tammy Musiowsky and Christine Arnold
Leading a school shouldn’t feel like juggling flaming clipboards. Tammy Musiowsky and Christine Arnold join us to share how minimalist leadership turns a noisy school ecosystem into a coherent one by aligning purpose, editing systems, and removing friction that wastes energy and time. They unpack the Triple P (purpose, priorities, pare down) and the Five Rs (reimagine, remove, repurpose, reinvest, refine) to show how small, smart edits in communication, operations, and culture create outsized gains for teachers and students.
We explore why interdependence matters: when leaders are stretched or unclear, stress cascades through the whole community. Tammy and Christine walk through concrete ways to “buy back” time by blocking deep work, backmapping deadlines, simplifying meetings, and building buffer zones so people can think. They make a powerful case that simplifying raises the level of thinking by freeing attention for strategy, feedback, and relationships.
Along the way, we get candid about tradeoffs, boundaries, and the signals leaders send without realizing it. A head-up greeting, a cleaner email, and a tighter agenda can shift the emotional climate of a hallway, a team, and a school day. If you’re craving fewer initiatives and more impact, this conversation delivers practical edits you can make next week, plus a mindset that keeps them sticking. We share favorite chapters on time and well-being, talk through tool choices and timelines, and highlight how to reduce friction in your own role, even without a formal title.
EPISODE RESOURCES:
- Connect with Tammy and Christine via the Plan Z website, Tammy's Instagram, LinkedIn (Tammy), LinkedIn (Christine).
- Read their books:
Welcome to SEL in EDU, the podcast where we explore how educators bring social emotional learning to life by sharing stories, strategies, and sparks of inspiration. I'm your host, Dr. Krista Lay, owner of Resonance Education. Thank you for joining us on this SEL journey.
SPEAKER_00:I'm Brian Carpenter, host of FreshArt5, part of the Education Podcast Network. Just like the show you're listening to now. Shows in the network are individually owned and opinions expressed may not reflect others. Find other interesting education podcasts at edupodcastnetwork.com.
SPEAKER_03:Tamara Musiowski is a professional development coach for Catapult Learning and a professional learning facilitator. She is an ASTD Emerging Leader class of 2014, is the executive director of the Advancing Leaders Collaborative, and is a Hawaii Society of Technology and Education board member. Christine Arnold has worked in Australia, Japan, Singapore, Belgium, and the Netherlands as a teacher, coach, mentor, co-teacher, coordinator, tutor, and supervisor from early childhood education to adult education. I am so excited to have two of my favorite people back on again. Tammy and Christine were on season one, and they are back again, more powerful than ever, with a new book for you both. So, Tammy and Christine, welcome back to SEL and EDU. Thank you. It's fun to be back. Yes, and as always, we're in totally different time zones. Tammy, what part of the world are you joining in from? And what time is it there?
SPEAKER_01:I'm just three hours behind you at this point. So it's not too bad. Not the darkness that it could be if I was in Hawaii. But yes.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. And I thought for a moment you were there, and I'm like, why is she getting up so early? And then I thought, why is Christine working so late?
SPEAKER_02:Christine. We're okay. It's only 5 p.m. over here. So it's a nice comfy time. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:So we're all scattered throughout the day. I asked you to come back on one because you always have new work that you're putting out. Tammy, for your own work and Christine in plan Z, you have a new coaching framework that you've developed and are using with the teachers and administrators you've been working with. And speaking of serving administrators, you have a new book that is dropping.
SPEAKER_01:It's your school leadership edit, applying minimalism to your school ecosystem.
SPEAKER_03:So I was just on somebody's dissertation survey. I did their dissertation survey, and they were talking about learned-centered ecosystems. And I was with somebody else in this call who his expertise is in learning ecosystems. I'm curious what resonated with you around that word ecosystem.
SPEAKER_02:A huge part of it was just recognizing how interdependent everybody in a school community is. Really thinking about if one part of the community, whether it's leadership or staff or our parents or our students, if any of them are not feeling it, they're not really thriving, it's going to throw everybody else out in some way, shape, or form. We're focusing a lot on leadership. And I think a lot of the time we think of our school leaders as being fine. They're okay, they've got a nice office, they're on a nice pay scale, like they're fine, we don't need to worry about them. But actually, if they're not doing okay, that is going to cascade down to everybody else in the community. So I think that ecosystem analogy was a really nice one to think about how, yeah, just one bit is going to throw the rest out. So we all need to be really working together to make sure that everybody is doing well, is healthy, their well-being is looked after and so on.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think that's such a powerful piece that we know inherently is there, but often in the muddle and the quickness of everything, we forget about. Even looking at it from an SEL point of view, we want our students to be healthy and have a passion and purpose. But we also know we want our educators and our leaders, because, like you said, Christine, it's all they're all interdependent. And so I know you have a minimalist foundation in this book, like your first one. And so, what motivated you to write this second book? How is it different from the first one?
SPEAKER_01:So we started writing this one. I want to say maybe a year and a half after the first one came out. It's like December 2022. We have files started. And I think we were just potentially still riding up a high from the book. Like we were excited it came out. We were getting some good traction with webinars and people wanting to talk about it, being on podcasts and talking to people about these ideas. And so we just started dropping ideas in this folder, like maybe we should write like a school leader lens book. Maybe not. And so we had stuff sitting there for quite a while. And then we didn't start like actually getting serious about again until 2024, early 2024, I want to say. So it sat there for a year. And then we had some conversation about okay, these are the roles that we're in right now. Maybe we should start writing this kind of newer framework. It's still grounded in minimalism, but we're looking at the school lens because we're in these different roles and we're seeing things from different perspectives. But it's from that bigger picture. We have a different framework, although we still talk about things from the first book in this book, because it is very essential for us to understand the triple P that we talked about in the first book. What is our purpose, our priorities, and how do we pare down? That is very fundamental. And so we took that and built out that bigger picture from that. We questioned even doing it because Christine was in a new role. They were going through school accreditation, she was planning a wedding, like all the life things were happening. And where I was like, no, we can do this. Let's plan out a timeline, let's get this thing together. And so it was a fairly big year just trying to get all of our words down on paper. But the deadline really kept us going.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know what you're talking about. It was very relaxing for me, Tammy. Um, just adding on to what you were saying there, I think as well when we were doing the webinars and sessions with people after the first book, we kept coming back to this question from the people that we were interacting with, where they were saying, I love this, minimalism, fantastic, sign me out. But what do I do if I'm in an environment where nobody else is thinking about minimalism? What if I'm in a context where the leadership above me is the complete opposite of minimalism? So what do we do then? And so I think driven by a lot of the questions that we were having in our sessions and our interviews, we were like, yeah, there's a call for something bigger than individual teachers themselves in their own classrooms. So I think that was one of the big motivators for us as well.
SPEAKER_03:Christine, with your new shift into your role, how are you seeing these different pieces fit into your day-to-day?
SPEAKER_02:I think it's always a journey, right? It's always a learning journey. I don't think you can necessarily say that we 100% do everything that's in either one of the books, but it's something that we're learning and thinking about and growing all the time. But I think shifting into more of a leadership role, it gives you a very different perspective about the systems behind schools that you might not necessarily see when you're in the classroom and your majority of your focus is on your kiddos. So I think when we were writing about some of those systems and thinking, yeah, some of this could be streamlined as well. It's not just the day-to-day in the classroom, but there's some of these big systems that underpin all of the workings of our school that also could be streamlined as well. And I don't necessarily have all the role that has the power to enact some of those changes, but I think it's also still useful to be asking those questions and having that discourse and do that thinking about how we could potentially improve as well.
SPEAKER_03:And then thinking about this as well, you don't have to have a formalized leadership role to be considered a leader. You're part of that ecosystem. And because you're part of that system, you have the agency and you have the power to influence that system and to affect change. Tammy, when somebody orders the book, what can they expect as they go through?
SPEAKER_01:So we haven't written similar to the first. So where you could just grab a chapter and read it, depending on what your need is, but we do recommend reading the first couple of chapters because the introductory chapter and we have a preamble are really valuable in just the sense of getting some background information, putting the spotlight on school leaders and the impact that you'd have on schools and getting that bigger picture alignment there. The first chapter is about building out that culture and ecosystem and what that looks like. And then each of the subsequent chapters are about doing an edit. That's why the cover has highlighters on it, because it's an editing process, right? Anytime we're going through some kind of process of evaluation, reflection, something, we think of it as what are we keeping? What are we gonna do away with? What are we editing, right? So, how are we making things more streamlined? In each chapter, you'll also find sections around our five R's. Reimagine, remove, reinvest, refine within like the one of the chapters is editing communications. So we'll talk about these are the ways in which like you can remove things from your communications. You can reinvest different communication tools. Each chapter has these concrete pieces that you can say, oh, this is actually like a little edit that I can make in my communication systems because something's funky there and my message isn't getting through. That's how each chapter is set up with examples and research behind everything.
SPEAKER_03:Christine, I saw you starting to look up something. Do you have those five R's?
SPEAKER_02:I do. I think this is very fascinating for everybody. You just because you wrote it doesn't mean you've memorized the whole thing. But yes, our five Rs reimagine, remove, repurpose, reinvest, and refine.
SPEAKER_03:So as I'm reflecting on those five R, I'm looking around my office space. And I'm even thinking about my space, which I know you address in your first book. And I'm thinking about what do I need to do to get a good start going into this school year? I'm gonna be back working in schools again with teachers in their classrooms, and I want to make sure that I'm prepared to have better communication, to be better organized to streamline what I'm sharing. So I'm even seeing that for people who are working between buildings or people who are working outside of buildings, I'm working with ecosystems that are already structured, but how am I ensuring that I am going in with a similar flow that is existing in there, knowing that I can have some influence, but that I am streamlining things too for the educators to not make it feel like something bigger or more? What audiences did you have in mind as you were going through the process? And did that shift at all?
SPEAKER_02:Thinking for myself personally, I can't speak for Tammy. I was thinking about anyone who has any investment in the school as a whole. So it could be any of your leaders, it could be your board, it could be, you know, your parent association, any sort of group that is looking at the school as a whole. Which is your teachers as well, obviously. I would hope that anyone in that ecosystem, as you mentioned, would find something that is relevant to them and also helpful in what they're trying to do to edit down what they're doing and the systems that they're engaged in. But we do lean into the voice being towards school leaders themselves for sure. We really wanted to highlight the influence, the impact that they can have, but also in addition to that, how important it is that they are as well. Because we can't ignore the fact that they are a crucial part of that system. And so they need to be looking after themselves just as much as everybody else in the community.
SPEAKER_03:One of the things that I admire most about both of you is that you live what you share and what you practice. Earlier, you were both saying we're still working through parts of these ourselves in our own lives, in our work, and sharing what has worked for us and what we're hearing there's a need around. Tammy, how do you apply these different pieces and philosophies in the work that you do?
SPEAKER_01:So I like you go in to schools now as an outsider, right? So I'm no longer in a school-based role. But the way that I approach coming in to work with teachers and leaders is that I really do value what they already do. So I'm looking at, okay, this is what's happening right now. I really try to think about it from like a simplification lens because it is things can get very complicated. And I don't want to be the source of more complication or confusion or whatever. But I would like to think that I add some layer of complexity because people are thinking about things differently through some of the work that we do together. And the lens that I bring is often from the five Rs. What are we removing and what are we repurposing? And how can we do what you're doing, but just do it better? This is the big idea behind both books, really. We don't want people to think about this as an initiative. It's not. It's a way of thinking, it's a mindset, it's being highly reflective in just what we are doing and how can I do this better? How can I make this easier on myself? How can I reduce friction? And with that, like that just takes away some of the stress in our roles, right? When we just boil it down or pare it down, as we would say, because it is so easy to get pulled into all of the things, the overcomplications, even as a person as an outsider coming into schools.
SPEAKER_03:One of the pieces that you said that I really gravitated toward was that it's simplifying, but still increasing complexity. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think we've both come across people who think, oh, you're minimalists, oh, you're like the lazy teacher. You want to do less and put in this half-hearted effort. And we don't see ourselves in that narrative. I don't think not.
SPEAKER_03:I can definitely say that you are some of the most intentional, purposeful, creatively thinking people I know.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's lovely. Thank you, Krista. No, I think this work that we've been attempting to do for the last few years is really coming back to that triple P with the focus on your purpose. If you are constantly mindful of what is the purpose, what is the big picture here? I think it does help you be very strategic in the work that you do. So you stop going, oh yeah, that's a cute idea, or oh, that'll be so fun, or wouldn't the parents love that, or something, and go actually stop. What is the purpose here? Is this actually meeting all of the strategic plans and the mission of the school and everything else and the finance budget, et cetera, et cetera? So I think in that way it adds that level of complexity in that you're always being very intentional in the work that you're doing and not just skating by you're trying to take the easy way out. That's definitely not what we're advocating for.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And as you were talking, for the words that jumped into my head are focusing on function and not the flash. Sometimes that is what overwhelms. And it also reminds me of I think it's like Oxum's razor, isn't it? Like this mindset or philosophy that sometimes the best way from point A to B is right through. It's the smoothest, the simplest, the first idea that comes can be the best. And it doesn't need to be overly complicated. And complicated is different than complex. When you think about the book, because I know you've just been going through final edits, reflect back on what was your absolute favorite part for each of you.
SPEAKER_01:Initially, the problem child came to mind because we had this chapter that was like, what is happening here? But for me, the chapter on time, how to edit your time structures, is so fascinating. There's just some really interesting people who've done research about what we do with our time, how we use it, the best ways to use it, timing, like all of those things. I think that's our longest chapter. And I do think that's probably one people are going to gravitate to because we know that time is a concern and an issue in schools. How do we buy back time? What can we remove so that I have more time for this? And so there's definitely a lot in there. And it feels tangible, right? It feels, oh yeah, I can do this thing. I can just modify how I think about this or how I put this in my calendar or how I schedule this, how I present it to people in this way. I do think that's one that's gonna be one that people really gravitate to.
SPEAKER_02:I love that you brought up the pop problem child there, Tammy. It seems like in both books, we ended up with this one chapter in both of them that we just could not wrap our heads around. We got there in the end, obviously, but it's a fascinating part of the journey to go through. I got really revved up and excited working on the preamble, the forward. And I had the idea and I said to Tammy, I don't know if this is a chapter, I don't know if it even belongs in this book, I don't know what it is. I don't even know what it is. But just that idea of how influential you are when you are in a leadership position, and you can't take that for granted. You can use that for good, you can use it for evil. So take it seriously. It's such a huge responsibility. I really thoroughly enjoyed sort of thinking that all through and how to phrase it and without it being too scary or doom and gloom for people, but actually something that is invigorating and exciting and a joy to be a part of. And yeah, we ended up putting it in at the beginning there to help set that tone for the book as well.
SPEAKER_01:I thought, Christine, that you were gonna say the well-being chapter, because that was another one where it was like we could just keep going in here. That was a favorite. That was a favorite too. You're right. Yeah, there's some really good research there and some solid ideas.
SPEAKER_03:For this cycle, these last couple podcasts, it's been with people who have just written books. And it's been inspiring to me to learn about the process because you have these ideas, you're grappling with what does this mean? How does it all fit together? And it's learning while you're writing, and it's transformational in that process. So those pieces that were your favorites to write, how has it changed your own practice or your own mindset?
SPEAKER_02:I think that's a really interesting thing to ponder. Thinking about the well-being chapter that Tummy just mentioned, diving into the research around educator well-being and specifically leadership well-being, I think it was very helpful and informative to see, you know, how serious it can be and some of the techniques and strategies that are necessary as well, which obviously you can utilize in your day-to-day life as much as you can fit in. But I think that the preamble there, talking about our influence, I think it's very helpful for all of us, no matter what your role, and I know it has been for me, just to be cognizant of how everything that you say and how you move through your day can have an impact on everybody around you. So even though I might be like completely caught up in my own thoughts about something and just do the briefest of nods to people in the hallway, that could be eliciting unintended responses in the people around me and how much of a difference you can make to other people's day if you just like put your head up and wave and have a cheerful greeting. And so you've got this ripple effect coming away from you in so many different ways. And I really try and be thoughtful about that. I do, I am a bit of a daydreamer, so sometimes I am in my own world, but I do try and be very mindful of it in my day-to-day.
SPEAKER_03:One of the things that reminds me of is when I first started teaching, I was in a connecting hallway between two big hallways. And at the end of that hallway of the tea part was a special education teacher. She worked with the students who needed emotional supports throughout the day. They were in all of the classes, including many of my classes, her students. And I would be coming in the morning and I was like, Hi, how are you doing? Good morning. And she was head down on a mission, like heading up. And I'm like, oh, she hates fake. Wow. And I made it my mission to get her to say hi to me. So, good morning, how are you? And keep going. And then as I got to know her through the students that we had, I realized that it wasn't anything personal. She cared about her kids so much that she would be in contact with the parents before the kids were coming into school and was working on setting up a smooth entry point for kids that would really help set the rest of our days, right? So as the kids were entering, it had nothing to do with me, but really was related to her passion and her dedication to solving issues before they even came into the door, which had me thinking about some judgments that sometimes we make and how sometimes our initial thoughts aren't always the best, but how my interpretation of her process was personal when in fact she was actually doing our community this amazing um benefit by smoothing the way for kids so that they could come to school feeling comfortable and safe and ready to engage in a healthy way with people. Amy, what have you taken from the learnings from the book and really thought about how that applies in what you do?
SPEAKER_01:I think the biggest takeaway from this book, honestly, is always my thought process around like, how can I make this easier on myself? And it doesn't mean that it's easy, it just means what friction am I taking away so that something that doesn't need the friction, right? In the book, we talk about the friction project and how many times things are hard. People make things hard for us for whatever reason, and it doesn't need to be that way. And sometimes I do that to myself in my own work. I think about like, why does this seem so hard when it really shouldn't be? A lot of the reading that we had done to write this book, such interesting research around all of these pieces, the friction in situations, how it affects our well-being, how just all the pieces have been so interesting. And yeah, I always just think about that for myself. And then I always try to make it low friction when I'm working with people. So why do I make more friction for myself when I'm doing my own stuff? Stop it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think we often talk about that in terms of we're better at giving other people advice and leeway and compassion. And we don't always give ourselves the same absolutely. Yeah. So how can we even apply the principles that you're talking about in those practices in our own personal lives with who we are and how we're showing up and what friction we're causing? It reminds me, even Tammy, like a week and a half ago, we were we check in every day on how we're doing, and I'm like, I'm just having an off day. And you're like, why do you think that is? And I'm like, like, I was just content that day to just be off. But then thinking, I'm like, okay, this is why I think I'm feeling a little off. It didn't necessarily change how I was feeling in the moment, but I will say that identifying why allowed me to move past it. So by the evening, I was fine again. And then the rest of the days, I'm like, okay, now I know where it's coming from, but without having somebody else like you coach just that one question, I'm like, oh, and because like it happens to us all the time, right?
SPEAKER_01:Where like I had a couple days ago, I was same thing. I'm like, today just feels so off. And I just stopped and was like, okay, what were the things that have put me in this spot or made me feel this way? Okay, yeah, these are clear things, but honestly, like they're not even that big of a deal and they're done now. So why am I so put off by them? We've mentioned a few times in the work that we've done the importance of pausing and just stop for a minute, just take 30 seconds to think, why is this so hard or why is this not working? Why do I feel this way about this?
SPEAKER_03:It goes back to what you both were talking about with communication and clarity. I was feeling off because I didn't have clarity about something when all I had to do was ask. Instead of just waiting, and Christine, you're laughing. Instead of waiting to see how things were gonna play out, all I had to do was ask. Especially when I think about I focus on social emotional learning. Christine, it goes back to your point of we're still learning this for ourselves as a journey.
SPEAKER_02:100%. No, we can really tie ourselves up in knots with this sort of stuff, can't we? It's crazy. The amount of like effort and emotional energy that we put into things when yeah, if you just paused and took a moment for sure. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:So, Christine, how'd that all come together for you with a book and a wedding that was planned in a different country with people from all around the world, which I have to say was so fascinating for me? I think I was one of four people from the US there, if I counted correctly. And I was the only one still living in the US, which I'm like, damn, I should have one in everybody else's life. Like, I really need to rewind my life and to have a do-over. So, how did that all play out for you thinking about clarity and communication and paring down and really thinking about purpose when a whole bunch of things are converging at once?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think I was white knuckling a lot of it. No, it was okay. No, I think, yeah, honestly, I've learned so much doing all of the work that we do. And so it was a mixture of so many different things that we've talked about in the books and on the podcast and in person that we've had these conversations. So it was a combination of you got to block your time, you got to know exactly what you're using your time for, you have to prioritize and go, yes, I have 75 things to do, but what do I need to do today? Really have to prioritize. I've gotten a lot better with compartmentalizing what I'm thinking about. So if I'm in my school building, I'm not thinking about the wedding, I'm not thinking about the book, I'm thinking about school. And then when I get home, I'm not thinking about school anymore. So you really have to block off that wandering mind thing because otherwise it can get very overwhelming. And then timelines. Tammy and I backdated, we said we need to have our manuscript due here. We want to have at least a month for rereading, making sure we're happy with it, having all the edits done. Okay. If we're going to have the final draft done a month before, then what do we need to do backwards in our planning to get there? And so we set hard deadlines. This month we're going to finish this chapter. This month we're going to do this chapter. And I took this a similar sort of approach with other things going on in our lives as well. Really pulling together a lot of the things that we've been working on and thinking through and writing about and discussing was really helpful in that very hectic phase of my life there.
SPEAKER_03:When I think about social emotional learning, the planning, the organization, those are pieces I need support in. And I look to how other people structure things so that I can do better myself because I also have a wandering brain and my energy levels are all over the place. And so I need to go where my energy is to be most effective and efficient. And even thinking back to, and Tammy, you're going to laugh at me. I always have new structures and systems in place for like how I'm going to approach my to-do list. And Tammy, you had this idea that you put out, I think two years ago, where we have this board of what's coming up, what's next week, and we keep shifting. But then every Sunday, I take my what needs to happen this week and I divide it up among my days within my schedule already. And that still has been one of the most effective strategies for me. And I look at, okay, what needs to happen today? Like you were saying, Christine. So Tammy, thinking about your own life and how you navigate between so many different locations and states for work and writing the book. What are some of those pieces that you have really found work for you that are tried and true?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, very similar, just blocking the time, making my list of all the things, right? But then compartmentalizing so that I knew this has to do with my business, this has to do with the book, this has to do with this. So I was really segmenting and then similarly to you, just okay, this week I know I've got to take care of this to get to this point for next week. A lot of backwards planning when you're doing these big picture projects, you have to know where you need to be in the process to get to your endpoint. But Christine and I knew that we needed buffer time too. And that was really, that's always a really important part of my planning. Although I've learned over time that I can't do something, if the deadline is the end of the month, I probably can't start it at the start of the month. That's too far away because then I've forgotten, like, oh, I already did all of this, which is sometimes a nice surprise. But working within a shorter deadline, depending on the project, is sometimes a little bit easier for me to keep thoughts in my head and then just to stay compartmentalized. That's been a big learning for me and just practice. I think the challenge though has been time zoning because Christine and I live in different time zones and we have a pretty good rhythm with Hawaii to the Netherlands in the summer when it's 12 hours, but then I don't do a time change, whether I'm in Hawaii or Arizona. And so that always is okay, wait, hold on. But we did just figure out like we'll work in my morning, we'll work in her later afternoon or evening. We just kept that consistent over time just to make it easier on ourselves, because again, reduce the friction.
SPEAKER_02:I think another one, Tammy, that you are really good with, and I try and get there as well is using tools really well. So whether it's just a spreadsheet to keep track of everything or an app or whatever, but just making use of the tools that we have available, not necessarily even paid ones, can really help you manage these sorts of tasks.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. In the meantime, too, with all this, we were recording podcast episodes for our own show. And so, yeah, which I'm very proud of us for moving into season five and having a pretty streamlined, consistent structure. Just add that on top.
SPEAKER_03:In my head, I'm like, you are so killing adulting. This is what I have to. I'm like, oh my gosh, yes.
SPEAKER_02:If you saw the state of my house, you would not be saying that, Krista. This is not real life. Or something always has to give, right? Something is always getting put on the back burner. So you just gotta make your choices. I agree with you though, in the state of the house.
SPEAKER_03:So if so our mutual friend Ali Rodman came over because her family's gonna help take care of my bunnies while I'm gone to Portugal, and she's oh my gosh, let me see your office because I've only seen it in the background. And I said, I can take you up there. But what you don't see are all the stacks of things in piles on the floor. Over the last couple of months, with the way that life has been, I've left everything for different schools just in the piles. And now I'm like, okay, I need to take care of this. But I feel like if something has to drop, I'd rather it be the things and the stuff, like that, than the people and the connections and the work. So I'm giving you permission. This is in essence, I'm saying let the house go.
SPEAKER_01:As long as it isn't causing you stress.
SPEAKER_03:That's the point.
SPEAKER_01:That's the thing. So if you're because I'm living in the same thing too, where like piles, and okay, I have to repack my bag, and I need to put this pile over here because that's not for that. And although last night I did get on a good stretch of this goes in this box, this goes in here. But my paper files and book piles are a bit atrocious. And it but it's not stressing me out. The other stuff was because I was like, I don't know where that is now, and I'm gonna need that in the next couple of weeks. So I need to put that like front right there on my couch behind me. I'm gonna put that right there so that I will not forget to bring it with me when I need it on that day. But yeah, just that's the thing that we gotta be careful about too, is as long as it's not causing stress or like unease in your house with other people, too.
SPEAKER_03:That's an excellent point. And that is why I did clean the downstairs and moved everything up into the upstairs. Yes, it's contained now. Yeah, and speaking of containers, I am a huge fan of boxes and containers and bags to hold everything. So that's yeah. Sorry, I'm diverging into okay, what do I need to work on this afternoon? And thinking about how I can edit and repurpose and redesign and all of the R's to make my life less friction-y. Yes. So I know that when schools focus on your book, they would often contact you to come in and to talk about the book study or to come in and support the teachers as they were doing these audits and cleaning things up. And I suspect that the same thing is going to happen with this book coming out where leaders are like, I need to talk to you, get a hold of you, dig more deeply into what this looks like and have a conversation with you because I read all the books and having conversations with you both has been very helpful for me. How can people get a hold of you for all of these different extension pieces beyond the book and applying what they're learning?
SPEAKER_01:The book is coming out through Rutledge. That would be the website to go to for purchasing or Amazon or wherever you buy your books. We are probably the easiest way to get in touch with us would be through plansyeducation.com or on Instagram is at plansyeducation. My email is Tammy at planseducation.com. And then whatever comes in, I always CC everything over to Christine.
SPEAKER_02:If people want to check out the podcast, it's the Minimalist Educator Podcast, which you can find through all of the usual podcast platforms. If you want to just listen in to us chatting about things rather than talk to us directly, but both options are there and available.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Thank you. This year we've also had a theme around music. What songs or artists have been on repeat on your playlist? What's been getting you through all of the things to keep you moving forward?
SPEAKER_02:Okay, I'm gonna out myself as like the world's biggest nerd here. Okay. I'll bring it on. Yes. I'm just warning you now. So my partner plays an online game called World of Warcraft. And so every now and then recruits me to come and join him. I'm crap, I'm not very good. But the music in the worlds that you're working around is is amazing. It's fantastic. And so what I've actually been doing the last couple of months is I'll find that soundtrack or something similar, like a medieval soundtrack. And I'm not kidding you, I feel like I'm completing side quests when I'm getting my work done. I'm like, yes, I'm working on this. I'm gonna hand it in. It's gonna be amazing. It like gamifies the whole experience of your to-do list.
SPEAKER_01:It is really fun, but I am, yep, I am a nerd. Yep. Love that so much. That's awesome. Yes. That's like you're achieving levels, right? You listen to this music, like level one, complete.
SPEAKER_03:Or I'm imagining like Mission Impossible.
SPEAKER_02:It's more like medieval music, I have to say, but anyways. Oh, I'm gonna find it. Okay. Enjoy the medieval wow music, everybody.
SPEAKER_01:For myself, I have been listening to a lot of different country artists the last while. One I'm listening to now is Lainey Wilson. She has like a really distinctive voice, and she's I've seen her, she was on like Yellowstone a few episodes, and she's a great storyteller, has a very unique sounding voice. So I like listening to her lately. Yeah, she came to mind first. I almost thought you were gonna say Dolly. Yes, it's funny because like Dolly always lives in my mind in different ways. I don't always listen to her music though. Once in a while I do. Yeah. Good old Dolly.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like every time I see something Dolly related, because she's all over the place now. Yeah. She's making everything. I feel like taking snapshots and sending it to you. And so now, Christine, every time I see World of Warcraft, I'm gonna be like, Christine, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'm really I'm like a level 12 or something. I shouldn't be advertising it at all. But it is fun to gamify it and make you feel like you're completing little tasks along the way.
SPEAKER_03:We all start somewhere. This is true. The next time you're on the podcast, you're gonna be like, I am level 737.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know if it goes that high, but I will give it a go for you, Krista. I will give it a go.
SPEAKER_03:Make me proud. Thank you both for coming on. I know that it's earlier in the morning for Tammy, the end of the day for you, Christine. And I always enjoy us talking and learning more about how you put what you're passionate about into practice because it always makes me think about how I can refine and be better at how I'm showing up and how I'm using time and how I'm not just taking things for granted, but being more purposeful and thoughtful and intentional.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you again. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thanks, Kristo.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you again for tuning in to this episode of SEL in EDU. At Residence Education, we equip educators with knowledge, skills, and resources to design learning experiences that foster students' academic, social, and emotional growth. We believe that every small action to foster connections and growth creates ripples shaping the future.
